In The Dark Podcast Summary: Rachel Aviv on Alice Munro’s Family Secrets

Podcast Information:

• Title: In The Dark
• Host: Madeleine Baran, The New Yorker
• Episode: From The New Yorker Radio Hour: Rachel Aviv on Alice Munro’s Family Secrets
• Release Date: March 11, 2025

Introduction

Madeline Baran opens the episode by highlighting a special interview from The New Yorker Radio Hour featuring Rachel Aviv. Aviv discusses her investigative reporting on Alice Munro, the acclaimed Nobel Prize-winning short story writer, and the dark family secrets surrounding Munro’s personal life.

Alice Munro: The Acclaimed Storyteller

David Remnick introduces Alice Munro as a "master of the short story" and often referred to as "the Chekhov of her era." Munro’s prolific career includes over 50 stories published in The New Yorker. Remnick remarks on Munro’s significant impact on literature, noting her 2013 Nobel Prize in Literature.

Rachel Aviv elaborates on Munro’s exceptional ability to evolve with each reading, stating, “I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted” (02:58). Aviv emphasizes Munro’s deep psychological insight and formal innovation in short story writing.

Revelation of Family Abuse

In 2023, Munro’s daughter, Andrea Skinner, revealed that she was sexually abused by Munro’s longtime partner, Jerry Fremlin, starting when she was nine years old (06:34). Andrea disclosed that Munro chose to stay with Fremlin despite knowing about the abuse, a decision that has deeply affected Munro’s legacy.

Remnick shares his initial reaction to the revelation: “I was just startled. I mean, Alice Munro holds a great place in my mind as a reader and frankly, as a citizen of the New Yorker, she's an important figure” (06:12).

Rachel Aviv’s Investigative Journey

Aviv recounts how she became involved in uncovering Munro’s family secrets. Upon learning about the Toronto Star’s article via a friend, she felt compelled to delve deeper: “It's about so many things that I... memory, sort of family trauma, the sort of generational dynamics” (07:59).

She uncovers that Andrea’s abuse by Fremlin began when Munro’s father was dying, creating a complex and abusive family dynamic. Andrea expressed feeling unsafe and unheard, leading to years of silence and trauma.

Munro’s Personal Struggles and Relationship with Fremlin

Aviv discusses Munro’s psychological state and her inability to leave Fremlin permanently, despite recognizing the abuse:

“She was a participant in like a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man” (10:48).

Remnick probes further, asking Aviv: “How do you make sense of why she stayed?”

Aviv explains that Munro’s decision was influenced by deep psychological wounds and a dependency that mirrored her troubled childhood, where she experienced abuse at the hands of her father:

“There was this language of, like, art monsters, which, like, sure, applies. But I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds” (14:37).

Alice Munro’s Own Words

The podcast features a poignant excerpt from Alice Munro’s 1979 interview with Joyce Davidson for the CBC, where Munro reflects on passivity and her fascination with human behavior:

Alice Munro: “Passivity is not something that modern woman is supposed to be content with, let alone striving for. And yet... it's probably the overriding passion of my life, just to see” (12:15).

Aviv connects this to her investigative findings, highlighting Munro’s detachment and curiosity about human interactions, which may have influenced her handling of her daughter’s abuse.

Impact on Andrea Skinner and Family Dynamics

Andrea Skinner describes her lifelong struggle with the aftermath of abuse and her relationship with her mother:

“Andrea Skinner: I was sent back to my stepfather's house. Unfortunately, nobody did anything to stop it or help me heal at that time. And the effects of that or that I felt really devalued and even dehumanized by not just my abuser, but all of the significant people of my life” (20:40).

The podcast explores how the family chose to protect Munro’s fragile reputation, with siblings and parents prioritizing the preservation of her legacy over Andrea’s well-being. This collective silence left Andrea feeling isolated and devalued.

Munro’s Literary Legacy in Question

Aviv discusses how Munro’s personal failures complicate her literary legacy. Munro’s ability to depict passive suffering in her stories now casts a shadow over her real-life actions:

“I think like, a question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about, like, art. At what expense? Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed” (29:13).

Remnick asks whether Munro’s actions undermine her work, a question that resonates deeply with readers and scholars alike.

Conclusion: The Complex Legacy of Alice Munro

The episode concludes by reflecting on the profound impact of Rachel Aviv’s reporting on how Alice Munro will be remembered. Munro’s literary genius is undeniably significant, yet her personal choices and their destructive effects on her family add a layer of complexity to her legacy. Aviv’s investigation raises important questions about the relationship between an artist’s work and their personal life, challenging listeners to reconsider Munro’s contributions in light of her actions.

Rachel Aviv leaves listeners contemplating the cost of artistic brilliance and the ethical responsibilities of individuals, even those celebrated for their creative talents.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Aviv: “I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted.” (02:58)

• Alice Munro: “Passivity is not something that modern woman is supposed to be content with... it’s probably the overriding passion of my life, just to see.” (12:15)

• Rachel Aviv: “She was a participant in like a pretty psychologically abusive relationship... women who try to leave men and don’t feel like they can exist without that man.” (10:48)

• Andrea Skinner: “The effects of that or that I felt really devalued and even dehumanized by not just my abuser, but all of the significant people of my life.” (20:40)

• Rachel Aviv: “It’s to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed.” (29:13)

Final Thoughts

This episode of In The Dark poignantly intertwines Alice Munro’s esteemed literary achievements with the harrowing personal failures that left her family in ruin. Rachel Aviv’s in-depth reporting provides a comprehensive and sensitive exploration of how Munro’s private life contrasts sharply with her public persona, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on legacy, art, and personal responsibility.