Season 2 Update: Five Years Later

Summary

In The Dark – Season 2 Update: Five Years Later

Host: Madeleine Baran
Date: October 8, 2025

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Overview

This deeply reported, intimate episode marks five years since In The Dark’s groundbreaking Season 2, which investigated the case of Curtis Flowers—a man who was tried six times for the same 1996 murder and spent 23 years behind bars before being exonerated. Host Madeleine Baran and producer Samara Freemark return to Winona, Mississippi, to visit Curtis, now living with and caring for his ailing father, Archie. The episode traces how Curtis has rebuilt his life, the enduring impact of his wrongful conviction, the complex dynamics of returning to his hometown, and ultimately, the final days of his father’s life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Returning to Winona and Reuniting with Curtis Flowers

• (02:00–04:09): Madeleine and Samara recount the drive to the familiar Flowers family home and their first moments with Curtis, who has dramatically lost weight for health reasons.
• Curtis reveals surprise at living in Winona again, noting his initial fears about safety and community backlash:

  "Wynonna is not somewhere I would just want to go…just to be safe." — Curtis Flowers (03:54)

Life After Prison—Celebrity, Quiet, and Caretaking

• (05:09–08:14): Curtis shares his transition from prison to brief national visibility—speaking engagements, media appearances, random celebrity encounters, Roc Nation shout-outs to moments of "spook" and unease:

  "It was so much happening all at once. It just spooked me." — Curtis Flowers (07:45)

• After a short-lived marriage and stint as a handyman, Curtis settles into daily caretaking for his father:

  "Nowadays, his life revolves almost entirely around one person. His father, Archie Flowers." — Madeleine Baran (08:14)

Archbishop Archie: Family Bonds and Decline

• (08:29–16:50): Archie, once a quiet pillar in Curtis's life, is found diminished by Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, but remains the axis around which Curtis orbits.
• Flashbacks and archival tape trace Archie’s devotion—driving to visit Curtis in prison, singing gospel in visitation rooms, performing with the Melody Kings—contrasted with his current decline.

  "He said, man, you don't have to hang around here looking after me… I said, look, if you can take care of me, I can't take care of you for a little while." — Curtis Flowers recalling Archie (12:59)

• The sacrifices of caretaking and the depth of the parent-child bond become a central theme:

  "It's a lot… stress you out. But he's a good dude. He really is." — Curtis Flowers (14:05)

Return, Reputation, and Racial Realities

• (17:58–22:25): Madeleine explores what it means for Curtis to live openly in a town once divided—often sharply along racial lines—over his guilt or innocence.
• Discussion of Curtis’s now-iconic "Locally Hated" bumper sticker (18:50):

  "I was, well, they hate me anyway. Let me get that one." — Curtis Flowers (19:07)

• Curtis details now-friendly, but often awkward, encounters with locals who confess they assumed his guilt.

  "We did not know. We'd always just assumed you were guilty because the District Attorney, Doug Evans, said you were." — Curtis paraphrasing locals (21:13) "They should think for themselves and not take something somebody else say." — Curtis Flowers (21:55)

Legal Fates and Unanswered Chapters

• (22:25–24:19):
  • Doug Evans, the DA who tried Curtis six times, retired in 2023; Curtis and others have filed bar complaints with little response from authorities.
  • Curtis sued Evans and law enforcement; the lawsuit was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.
  • He receives $50,000 a year for 10 years from the state for wrongful conviction—the maximum allowed:

    "Better late than never. But 23 years of your life, gone. You can't even get it back." — Curtis Flowers (23:59)

Everyday Injustices and Small Town Surveillance

• (24:19–27:31): Curtis reflects on ongoing, systemic injustice, e.g., the police targeting local Black residents, and how his notoriety both insulates and isolates him.

  "You come crawl over here and they everywhere. ...just stopping somebody. They got nothing better to do." — Curtis Flowers (24:47)

  • Relays a story about police seeking security camera footage from his home, to which he cheekily refuses:

    "I said, I did 23 years, I did 23 wrong for you. Now I'm supposed to just turn some footage over and help them guys… I don't rap people out like that." — Curtis Flowers (26:47)

The Weight of Care, Loss, and Memory

• (28:35–31:58): The difficulties of caring for his father—exhaustion, long nights, finding fleeting moments for music and connection—are vividly detailed, culminating in a poignant father-son duet of a family gospel song.
• (33:05–36:36): Curtis expresses his longing for a new life elsewhere, where he is not continually recognized and reminded of his past—even as he cherishes his ties to family and home.

Family, Grief, and Closure

• (36:54–40:04): The group visits the cemetery where Curtis’s mother, Lola, is buried. He describes her enduring support—the daily calls, her belief in his eventual release—and how he continues to visit her grave for solace and conversation:

  "I can have a conversation with my mom, talk about things that are going on, what I'm feeling. ...I got this sense of calm over me, you know?" — Curtis Flowers (39:10; 39:56)

Epilogue: Archie’s Passing

• (42:18–end): After their visit and while preparing the episode, the team learns of Archie’s death.
  • Curtis recounts Archie’s last request of him:

    "Be the glue for everybody. Keep them together and make sure they stay happy. Because Daddy’s tired and I'm ready." — (Curtis, quoting Archie; 46:55* estimation)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the surreality of freedom and fame:

  "Curtis, this is like the weirdest transition from Parchment Prison to that." — Madeleine Baran (07:34)

• On small-town perception and exhaustion:

  "If I stop somewhere, people want to talk…every day, it’s like you’re reminded of what I’ve been through." — Curtis Flowers (35:49)

• On the impossibility of compensation:

  "23 years of your life, gone. You can't even get it back." — Curtis Flowers (23:59)

• On family sacrifice and duty:

  "Daddy, the only reason I'm still here right now…something would have happened to him today, and I would be out of here by the weekend." — Curtis Flowers (34:55)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:00 — Arrival at Flowers' home; reunion with Curtis
• 05:39 — Curtis describes his life after release: public attention and odd jobs
• 08:14 — Shift to caring for his father
• 10:26 — Reflections on family prison visits, singing with Archie
• 16:22 — The emotional cost and unfairness of Curtis’s lost years
• 18:50 — "Locally Hated" bumper sticker and reputation in Winona
• 22:25 — Doug Evans, accountability, and settlement details
• 24:47 — Police scrutiny of Black residents; Curtis’s approach to law enforcement
• 28:44 — The demands of caretaking; music as comfort
• 33:24 — Driving through Winona and reflecting on history
• 36:54 — Visits to the family cemetery; conversations with his late mother
• 42:18 — Goodbye and Archie Flowers’ final days and death

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Tone & Language

The episode is profound yet conversational, suffused with warmth, bittersweet humor, and an ever-present sense of loss and resilience. Curtis’s dry wit and stoic acceptance are matched by Madeleine’s gentle, empathetic interviewing style. The narrative blends reportage and memoir, past and present, always foregrounding the human emotional stakes.

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Final Note

“Be the glue for everybody. Keep them together and make sure they stay happy. Because Daddy’s tired and I’m ready.” — Archie Flowers’s final words, as recounted by Curtis, resonate as a coda to this moving update. The episode is a portrait of perseverance and quiet heroism amid the unresolved wounds and daily demands left by an epic injustice.

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For more, listen to In The Dark on major podcast platforms or support the show through a New Yorker subscription.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Madeline. Before we get to the episode, there's something I want to tell you. You want to make sure to follow the in the Dark feed because later this month, we're launching an entirely new series that members of our team have been working on with an incredible New Yorker writer. I've been listening to the episodes as they've come together, and I can't wait for you to hear them. As always, the best way to support our show is to become a subscriber to the New Yorker. It's seriously so important. It's how we're able to keep making this work. You can get a special subscription offer and a free tote bag by signing [e-mail] dark and thank you. Now on to the episode. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform. In a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o-o o.com. that's o d o o dot com. It is strange to be back. Yeah, it is. So far it looks the same. Just the same. Yeah. A few months ago, I drove with our producer, Samara Freemark to a familiar town. All right, here's our exit. We turned onto a familiar street. I believe they're just right down here, right? If memory serves.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And pulled up in front of a familiar white house with dark shutters. The white house right there.

[B]

Yeah, that's this house.

[A]

There was a shiny white Nissan truck parked out front, the truck in the driveway with a bumper sticker on the back window that said locally hated. Locally hated. Oh, we gotta ask him about all these. We walked up onto the porch and a man in a black baseball cap and Nike slides came to the door. Someone who I never thought would be living in Winona, Mississippi, ever again. Hello? Curtis, is that you?

[B]

That's me.

[A]

Curtis Flowers. You are so skinny.

[B]

I had to. What happened?

[A]

I had to.

[B]

They Made me lose it because of my diabetic.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. So good to see you.

[B]

You too. I said, well, surely they just stopping by this evening.

[A]

The last time I'd seen Curtis Flowers in person was back in 2020, about a year after he was released from prison. Curtis had spent 23 years behind bars and had been put on trial six times for a crime that even the state of Mississippi now acknowledges he did not commit. The murder of four people at a local furniture store. Our reporting into Curtis case had played a big role in Curtis getting out of prison. We'd uncovered false testimony, questionable forensic science, and a pattern of racial discrimination in jury selection by the prosecutor's office. Our findings made it all the way to the Supreme Court, where Curtis conviction was overturned. The Supreme Court has thrown out the murder conviction of a Mississippi death row inmate who has been tried six times for a night. When I last saw Curtis, he was basically living in hiding in an undisclosed location out of state. It didn't seem safe for him to live in Winona, a small town where everyone knew about his case and many people, in particular white people, still considered him guilty. This is Curtis talking about it back then.

[B]

Wynonna is not somewhere I would just want to go and hang out just to be safe. And, you know, I just feel, you know, I shouldn't have to worry about anything, you know. So I left. Decided to just move away.

[A]

And so when I learned that Curtis had returned to live here, I was surprised. I wanted to know why. And I wondered what his life was like now. After all, Curtis was just 26 years old when he was arrested. He spent so many years on death row, by the time he got out, he was nearly 50. How do you rebuild a life after all that?

[B]

Would you guys want to sit down?

[A]

Yeah, that'd be great. Where should we sit?

[B]

Wherever you want.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

On the porch?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Got that.

[A]

Step down.

[B]

Let me move this cigarette.

[A]

Where do you want to sit?

[B]

I like to sit in the sun.

[A]

Okay. We sat down on the porch at his parents house where Curtis spends a lot of his time these days. There's two little plants, a candle, an ashtray for cigarette butts. The porch overlooks an empty field. And most days, the neighborhood around the house is quiet.

[B]

There's all kind of houses open on this street.

[A]

A lot of empty houses.

[B]

I kind of like it that way because it's quiet, you know, have to worry about a lot. When I first came home, you know, I didn't talk to people. You know, people didn't talk to Me. But then, you know, it started to slowly, you know, and here I am.

[A]

Sitting on the porch together. Curtis told me that when he first got out of prison, his life was very different.

[B]

Oh, man. I came home, and it was going everywhere.

[A]

Curtis emerged from the confines of his solitary cell into the swirl of being a kind of minor celebrity. There were the junkets to speak to groups all across the country.

[B]

We're really, really grateful to have with us here at Duke Law Curtis Flowers. Every time I was called upon to go, I went.

[A]

There are the interviews on television.

[B]

What's Parchman like, the worst thing you ever dreamed about? Like a nightmare.

[A]

The invitations to participate in mock trials at the law school up at Ole Miss. So you have to, like, go back to trial again. Curtis, you've been to trial six times.

[B]

Six times.

[A]

Can't they tell you, like, you get a break?

[B]

Well, I think it's kind of fun when you know you're not being railroaded.

[A]

Trial's nice when you're not the one on trial. There were the trips to places like New York City.

[B]

We had a good time. We walked Times Square. We tried everything.

[A]

There was the dinner at a swanky Italian restaurant where the owner of the place recognized Curtis.

[B]

She backs up and looks at me, Curtis motherfucking flower.

[A]

And picked up the entire bill.

[B]

She said, I followed your case the whole way. Get what y' all want. It's on me tonight. Everybody takes start laughing seriously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My cousin said, damn, everybody know your ass.

[A]

There was Jay Z's Roc Nation, which worked with the NFL to put Curtis name on a helmet. There was the millionaire who offered Curtis use of his beachfront house in the Hamptons, where Curtis sat sunning himself on the back deck as someone who looked suspiciously like Matthew McConaughey floated by on.

[B]

An inner tube because of the hair, you know, to hang down their back. I said, he look like Matthew McConaughey. I watch the Time to Kill.

[A]

The star of A Time to Kill, or someone who looked like him called out to Curtis.

[B]

Yeah, hey, how you doing? I said, I'm doing all right. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing, oh, fine.

[A]

Curtis, this is like the weirdest transition from Parchment Prison to that.

[B]

I'm trying to tell you it was.

[A]

Exciting and also a bit disconcerting.

[B]

It was so much happening all at once. It just spooked me.

[A]

It spooked you? What do you mean?

[B]

Well, what I mean is that I didn't expect things like that, you know, to go that way.

[A]

As the years went by, Curtis life Got a lot quieter. He found work as a handyman doing odd jobs. He got married briefly and then divorced. Nowadays, his life revolves almost entirely around one person. His father, Archie Flowers.

[B]

You guys want to talk to him a little bit? I know he'd love to hear from you guys.

[A]

Yeah, it would be great to talk to him.

[B]

He was excited earlier. When I told him, I said, well, you know from the podcast. They coming? Oh, yes. Y' all ready?

[A]

We went inside.

[B]

Good. Monday.

[A]

Hello, Mr. Flowers. Archie was sitting in a chair in the dining room watching Gunsmoke, the classic Western on a little TV that Curtis had set up on the dining room table. How you doing? I'm good. How are you?

[B]

All right. Well done.

[A]

So good to see you. Curtis headed for the kitchen to crush his dad's meds and stir them into a cup of applesauce. He fed his father a spoonful.

[B]

You in there? Yeah.

[A]

Archie looked much older and weaker than I remembered. In the years since I'd last seen him, I'd learned he'd been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. Back when I was first reporting this story, when Curtis was still locked up, I spent so much time with Archie and his wife, Lola. We would sit together in their living room, Archie on the large tufted ottoman and Lola and me on the couch. Archie was a man who was more than comfortable with silence. The first few months I knew him, he seemed happy to let his wife do the talking. But over time, he'd let a joke slip or tell his story. Then he started asking why I didn't come by more often.

[B]

Yeah, right. Y' all come see me sometime.

[A]

Anyway, this is from back then. Sure. Thank you. Always our first stop and our last stop every time we're in town. That's right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And we developed a kind of routine. Good morning. Good morning. I would come over, y' all give me a. And we would just sit and talk. How you doing?

[B]

I just got.

[A]

Every two weeks, Archie and Lola would make the drive to Parchman Prison to visit Curtis, and Archie would give me updates on those visits, how he and Curtis would use that time to sing together in the visitation room, separated by a thick plexiglass divider.

[B]

Yeah, we got a song that he love to sing and we get together Just say you love Jesus say you love Jesus if you love Jesus you ought to show some sign oh, he can tell.

[A]

Later on, Archie invited me to meet his gospel group, the Melody Kings. I would drive out to watch their practices in a spare room at the Greenwood Public Library actually got to see Archie perform a few times. Those performances are something I still think about, the intensity of them, how he seemed to completely lose himself in the moment. Archie told me that when he was performing, he imagined Curtis singing right next to him. Free. Archie did get to see Curtis released from prison, but his wife, Lola, never did. She died In July of 2018, just a year and a half before Curtis got out. After Lola died, Archie kept living in the family home on his own. But then he started having problems with his memory, and those problems got worse. One time, nearly four years ago, he even went missing. Authorities put out a silver alert, and he was found the next day by the sheriff's department drinking coffee at a deli 80 miles from Winona. After that, Archie gave up driving. At a certain point, it became clear to Curtis and his five siblings that someone needed to stay with their father to take care of him. Curtis volunteered, though he said his dad tried to talk him out of it.

[B]

He said, man, you don't have to hang around here looking after me.

[A]

You don't have to hang around here looking after me.

[B]

I said, look, if you can take care of me, I can't take care of you For a little while.

[A]

Archie smiled and said to Curtis, I'm.

[B]

Gonna tell Jesus about you. I said, well, I like the thing he said already. He said, well, I'm gonna tell him anyway, but that's my dad.

[A]

And so this is why Curtis returned to Wynonna. He moved back into the family home to live with his dad and take care of him. Curtis was trying to hire a caregiver for his father, but a lot of the time, the people he found fell through or wouldn't show up. Curtis siblings help out, but most days, Curtis is with his father all day and all night.

[B]

Baby, feed him.

[A]

It's a lot.

[B]

He goes through a lot, and you just hate to see him go through it, because my dad has always been this type of guy who's so independent. Right. I don't like to rely on nobody to do nothing for him, and I hate to see him like that. But that's why I volunteered to stay with him.

[A]

It's a lot of responsibility, though.

[B]

Yes, it is. Ooh. Stress you out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but he's a good dude. He really is. You ready? Oh, you ready?

[A]

It was time for Curtis to help his father get ready for bed.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yeah, he never picked me up. Nah, I ain't gonna pick you up right now. You too. Am tua. I'm guiding you. Here you go.

[A]

To hug. Curtis reached out his hands for his father and held onto him as they walked slowly together. Curtis walking backwards, his father walking forwards as they made their way into the bedroom.

[B]

Come on, follow me. I got Jesus. And that's enough.

[A]

This one though.

[B]

This one. I want them. That's all you need. Jump up out of here. I'll kick you. You ready? Right behind me.

[A]

Curtis and his father share a bedroom. Curtis sleeps in his parents bed and his father in a smaller bed right next to him. That's easier for him to get into these days. Curtis told me that even when Archie is sleeping, he worries about him. So he has a little alarm that he clicks onto his dad's clothing. It makes a sound. If his dad tries to get up.

[B]

I click it on him because if he raise up, then I just wake up. Where you going? There you go. Sort of bag this thing up.

[A]

Curtis gently eased Archie into bed.

[B]

I'm going the wrong way. Yeah, that's your name? Yeah. Wrong way. Wrong way. Hey, I'm gonna lay down. I got you, buddy. I got you. Just lay.

[A]

Being there with Archie and Curtis, I was struck, not for the first time, by the unfairness of it all. This family had waited 23 years for this moment when Curtis would finally be out. But now that moment was here, and Curtis's mother was dead and his father was struggling with dementia.

[B]

They saying good night to you.

[A]

Good night. Good.

[B]

Bound to leave me. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[A]

There was this joke that said that it was easier to get forgiveness in the Church of Christ for murdering somebody.

[B]

Than it was to be divorced from revisionist history. This is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama Murders. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Samara and I spent several days in Winona with Curtis and his father. Sometimes we'd sit with Curtis in the living room on the same couch where I'd spent so many hours talking with Archie and Lola. The room was still set up in the same tidy way that Lola had it. Lots of floral patterns, heavy drapes, family mementos on the shelves and walls. Other times, we'd go back out to the porch to talk while Archie slept inside. We talked about going for a drive around town together, but with no caregiver, it just wasn't possible. And so we stayed at the house and talked. I wanted to know what it was like for Curtis to be Back living in the same place where so many people had judged him and thought he was a murderer. And I wanted to know what was up with that bumper sticker that we'd seen on his truck when we drove up. You gotta talk to me about these bumper stickers.

[B]

Oh, what does that one say? Locally hated.

[A]

Locally hated. At the time Curtis bought the sticker, he just moved back to Mississippi after having lived out of state for a while. And the sticker seemed like a way of bracing himself for the reactions he expected to get.

[B]

I just felt like that at the time, you know, I just. Just came home. I was, well, they hate me anyway. Let me get that one. And I put it right in the center.

[A]

I told Curtis. That seemed like a bold move, driving around Winona, Mississippi, with a bumper sticker like this in a town where opinions about his case were divided sharply along racial lines. In my own reporting before Curtis conviction had been overturned, black people I talked to in town, nearly all believed that something was seriously wrong with Curtis's conviction. Most believed he was innocent. White people held a different view. Nearly every white person in town I talked to was convinced that Curtis was guilty. Curtis told me that the first person to comment on his bumper sticker was a white lady.

[B]

I was at the red light, seen a car pull up behind me, blow the horn. I was a white person. So I pulled over, and she pulled over too. She said, oh, I love that sign in your back glass. She said, anyone gave you a hill about it? I said, no, they haven't. I said, you first one just stopped me and spoke on it. And you laughed about it. She said, I think it's just so unique after all you've been through. But then, like, the more I keep it, you know, more people come and they laugh at it.

[A]

So you have a bumper sticker that says locally hated, and the only response you've gotten to it is from locals saying that they love it.

[B]

They love it. Yeah. And they find it funny.

[A]

So now do you feel. Is the bumper sticker true? Do you feel locally hated?

[B]

No, I don't. That's why I thought about taking it down. But then, you know, I said, well, all I've ever gotten was positive feedback about her, so why not just leave it in there?

[A]

While it was nice that people didn't respond by trying to drive him off the road, over time, the kind of nice reactions he got from people in town have been difficult in their own way.

[B]

I go to the grocery store sometime, you know, people see me and they just walk up, start talking how you doing, Ms. Flower? I'm doing all right. How are you? And we just start talking.

[A]

Curtis described these conversations as basically all going the same way. An encounter with a white person at the grocery store or the gas station, where the person would say to him.

[B]

We did not know.

[A]

We did not know. We'd always just assumed you were guilty because the District Attorney, Doug Evans, said you were. And then they'd go on to say how it was only many years later when the podcast came out, that they began to question what they'd been told. And Curtis would be standing there trying to decide how exactly to respond to this.

[B]

Would you believe the first time. You know, I always do it as a joke to make them laugh. Yeah. I said, so you could have thought about that the first time.

[A]

So people come up to you and say, we didn't know. Like, basically saying, look, look, we believe.

[B]

Doug Evans from the get go.

[A]

And what are you thinking when people tell you that?

[B]

That they should think for themselves.

[A]

They should think for themselves.

[B]

Think for themselves and not take something somebody else say.

[A]

When someone tells you, like, comes up to you in a grocery store and it's been, you spent 23 years of your life behind bars, and they say, oh, I just always assumed you were guilty. I mean, is part of you, like, angry at that person?

[B]

No, no. It's to be expected around here, especially if it's someone that, you know would believe Doug Evans over you. Yeah. And I hate to say the word with it all the time, so that's why I explain it that way.

[A]

Well, are we talking about white people?

[B]

Pretty much. But. But they were just so bent on. Because Doug Gibson said, this is my guy. He's gifted.

[A]

The District Attorney Doug Evans, the man who prosecuted Curtis over six trials, retired in 2023. Doug Evans is still licensed to practice law in Mississippi, according to a website associated with the Mississippi Bar Association. Since our reporting came out, there have been at least three complaints filed against Evans at the Mississippi Bar. One has gone seven years with no known decision. Another has languished for so long that the lawyer who filed it has since written a letter of complaint to the Mississippi Supreme Court. We asked the Bar association to explain the apparent delays, but they refused, saying that they would not even confirm the existence of the complaints, let alone comment on them. In 2021, Curtis filed a lawsuit against Doug Evans and three former law enforcement officials, accusing them of pressuring witnesses, failing to meaningfully investigate alternate suspects, and preventing black people from serving on the juries. The lawsuit was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. We reached out to Doug Evans, and through a lawyer, he declined to comment. Curtis also receives $50,000 a year from the state of Mississippi. A judge ordered the state to pay Curtis this amount every year for 10 years. The total 500,000 is the most the state allows for a wrongful conviction.

[B]

Better late than never. But 23 years of your life, gone. You can't even get it back. If you think a few dollars all the way down. But you have to really think about it, you know, those are years you can't get back. Just pick up, move.

[A]

Curtis told me he doesn't spend much time thinking about Doug Evans these days, but he does still think a lot about fairness. Curtis was the victim of a very big injustice, so big it was in the national, even international news. But these days, the injustices he notices are smaller, more day to day. The kinds of things he sees when he's sitting outside on the porch, like the police pulling over black people who don't appear to be doing anything wrong.

[B]

You come crawl over here and they everywhere. In that parking lot right there on that street before you get to that gym down there, lit up all day long, just stopping somebody. They got nothing better to do.

[A]

The family's porch overlooks an empty field where a public school once stood before it was integrated by court order in 1970 and then mysteriously burned to the ground. Since I'd last been in town, a tall metal fence had gone up around the field, cutting off what had once been a popular shortcut through the neighborhood. Curtis said the cops had taken to trying to arrest people who jumped the fence to use the shortcut.

[B]

I seen a guy come. Little young cat come through here one Saturday morning. He jumped the fence right over there. He was walking down through there. He got his balkman on, looking down, bobbing his head. He don't even see the police. Pulled right down there and got out of the truck and just came around, leaned against the hood and waited on him. I was doing it right here.

[A]

You tried to wave him off to let him know.

[B]

He just never even paid me no attention. He just walked. He get right out on that platform and see him, he just froze in his track. He looked this way, he looked that way. I said, he thinking about running now. He said, come on now, don't run. He walked on down. He put him right in the truck.

[A]

We took the kid away for walking across this field, for, like, trespassing or something.

[B]

No trip. I didn't mean it.

[A]

Curtis told me that one day a guy came by with some bolt cutters, cut a hole in the fence. The next day, a cop showed up at Curtis's house.

[B]

He said, hey, how you doing, Curtis? I'm doing all right. He said, look, you happen to see anybody over there on this side of the fence? I said, now it's something particular person you're looking for? Well, someone cut the. Oh no, I don't know nothing about that though.

[A]

Curtis said the cop even asked him about his security camera.

[B]

He said, I can't help but notice y' all have a security camera. I said, now ain't no law. I'm not a convenience store. I don't give you no footage.

[A]

They wanted to get your camera. Yeah.

[B]

The black guy behind him started laughing and I said, yeah, I don't have to give you no footage. I said, I did 23 years, I did 23 wrong for you. I said, now I'm supposed to just turn some footage over and help them guys. I said, I don't rap people out like that.

[A]

But you said that to the cops. What did the cops say?

[B]

Have a nice day, Curtis. You too. They walk across that laughing.

[A]

I think a lot of people would make a different choice, but yeah, he.

[B]

Coming over and asking me to tell uncle, my dear, what you trying to give him 23 years too.

[A]

Do you think there's a way in which you being so known for everything that happened with you protects you in a way from being treated even worse by the local police? Or do you think it's the opposite?

[B]

I think it helps, yeah. Because you know, so many people know me and know me that, you know, they, I feel they have to watch how they approach. A 20 year old soldier goes missing from a U. S. Army base.

[A]

How can she go missing on a military base? That's too ridiculous.

[B]

What would come to light is horrifying and ignites a movement that sparks a reckoning in the US Military.

[A]

Listen to Vanished what happened to Vanessa? A new series from ABC Audio in 2020.

[B]

Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Over the days we were in Winona, there were times when Curtis was especially exhausted from taking care of his dad. So he was up a lot last night?

[B]

Yeah, we had an episode, I cleaned him up and then we just ended up talking. He wasn't ready to go back to sleep. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, just rocking and he talked. I looked up the clock one time about 3:15, and I was like, look, it's time to lay down again. He said, go ahead. I said, no.

[A]

Curtis said he'd Been up for hours, just rocking his father back to sleep, trying to keep his own eyes open. And by the morning, Archie was full of energy, sitting in his chair at the dining room table. And Curtis was spent.

[B]

And then we'd been full steam ahead this morning. Yeah, he got a little mojo in them legs, too. He was moving and moving. I walked in the kitchen, I come back, he was sitting right there. I went into the room, come back, he was sitting way over here. Something is wrong with you, Cuddy. Something wrong with me? Something wrong? Something wrong with you. Oh, man. Do a little bit of trying to think of a song that you might know I know you ain't forgot it now you say bottom on my mind But I tell you what you'll like this. Haven't been to heaven But I heard.

[A]

The street.

[B]

I haven't been to heaven But I heard the streets were Pa. Been a long time since the falsehood.

[A]

Long time ago.

[B]

Heaven been to heaven But I heard the streets were paved with gold It's a place to rest and a poo to bathe your weary.

[A]

So.

[B]

You remember love oh, Lord, please hear my prayer that's always what I'm saying Give some who wants the boy? Oh, my. When I get there, it's a song that me and daddy done tried a lot of songs. Sitting here every day, all day. Sure, I come through the door humming like he said, what you want, boy? And we go from there. Well, he gonna sing it anyway. Yes.

[A]

On our last morning in town, when we pulled up, I was surprised to see Curtis outside in the driveway by himself. Oh, Curtis. He's throwing out the trash. It was literally the farthest I'd seen Curtis get from his father the whole time we'd been in town. Good morning. A caregiver Curtis had been trying to hire had showed up unexpectedly, and she offered to watch Archie for a few hours.

[B]

Well, yeah. Ms. Cunningham showed up. I was so happy to see her. I said, oh, my good. Thank you. Yeah. And I got her situated, and I come right out of house with the trash.

[A]

I'm glad you're getting a little break. Cause that's a lot. I mean, I know you don't mind doing it. In some ways you like doing it, but, man, you need a break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We decided to spend the free morning driving around town. We all piled into Curtis truck.

[B]

All right, we're about ready to.

[A]

I'm gonna ride a shotgun. We drove down Summit Street, Powell Street, Applegate, through neighborhoods where I'd spent so much time years earlier, knocking on people's Doors investigating Curtis's case.

[B]

You guys are probably familiar with some of this here.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Very familiar with a lot of. I mean, this is just like a strange experience, I gotta say, Curtis, because we have driven this route so many times, like piecing this all together. And I never thought that one day I would be driving this route with.

[B]

You, the actual person.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. We coming up into town right now.

[A]

We drove past the police station and past the courthouse where Curtis was put on trial.

[B]

Much as I've been in this courthouse. They ought to have my picture on the wall in here.

[A]

Have your picture on the wall.

[B]

No, it should be like Martin Luther King. I should have went down in history with them.

[A]

There should be a Curtis Flower statue outside.

[B]

Right out here in this field. We put him through so much hell that we gave him a statue. See, I want to be doing what this guy doing right there. Riding motorcycle.

[A]

A man was riding by us on an old black motorcycle earlier on the porch. Curtis had pulled up some photos on his phone to show us the exact type of motorcycle he dreamed of having.

[B]

Look at that there. I do.

[A]

Oh, my God. A red Can Am Spider. A three wheeler that looks like a cross between a motorcycle and a snowmobile or maybe an atv.

[B]

That's a pretty machine. I'll be looking at them every day, and I want to get out there and just ride, ride, ride. Oh, man. Let down my hair and I don't even have hair. Yeah, I'm serious. I want it just that bad.

[A]

So do you think that eventually you'll leave Winona? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I tell my sisters and my brother. You know, Daddy, the only reason I'm still here right now, I said, lord knows something would have happened to him today, and I would be out of here before the weekend.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

We're probably back in Texas somewhere. Alabama. Either one better than here.

[A]

Do you think you'd like to live in a place where not everybody knows you?

[B]

I prefer it that way. Mal just want a fresh start, you know? Just being somewhere where people don't know me. Just starting a new life, you know? It's just. It's just a lot easier to forget the past and move on. Like around here. If I stop somewhere, people want to talk. Curtis, are you Curtis? Every time you see someone, they bring up what I went through.

[A]

You feel like every day, it's like you're reminded of what I've been through.

[B]

When I'm out in public, someone says.

[A]

Hey, Curtis, that was so wrong. Or, hey, Curtis, I've changed my mind.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

They think they're being nice, but they're just reminding you exactly.

[B]

Always bringing it up. And this is why we're gonna start talking. Hello, Excuse me. My name is so and so. So and so. And. And I just saw you and I just wanted to speak and. And say it's just a shame what you had to go through. I said, yes, it is. And. But they'll just keep talking, talking. They'll follow you through the store and I'll be looking, trying to find the milk and the butter so I can hear him get out of here. So sometimes I pull out my phone. Excuse me. Hello? Yeah, hey, I'm headed out now. You know, something like that.

[A]

Like pretending to be like, I have to go now.

[B]

Just get away from. Cause now I walk out the store. Now I'm thinking about it now. The day was going good. Somebody brought that up.

[A]

We kept driving. Curtis turned on to a gravel road.

[B]

That's the cemetery right over here. I guess there's a time I had to ride through here now at the time. Cause it's gonna be raining a little bit. See the sky?

[A]

The cemetery sits on a small sloping field surrounded by trees. Just around the block from Curtis house. We pulled over to the side of the gravel road and got out.

[B]

All these. All these right here. Family, family, family. We deep over here.

[A]

We walked with Curtis through the cemetery.

[B]

MCU a kinfolk. My mom's sister, Son. That's him. Khalil, Rufus, John. All these seals and Sandals Flowers, Timbers Woods. They all family. This whole little hill here, nothing but family. As you can see, we got Mama right over here.

[A]

Lola Flowers grave was marked with a granite stone with the word Mother etched in front. Next to it was another gravestone marked Father. It was for Archie, the guy who.

[B]

Owned the Tombstone place. He said, you know, I known your mom for years and I'm not gonna even let you guys buy Tombstone. I'm gonna do it myself. And he just went on and added Daddy to it.

[A]

Curtis. Mom had always believed that Curtis would get out one day. She was so convinced of it that she even saved up money and bought him a small house right across the street from the family home. Though she later had to sell Curtis house to pay for her dialysis treatments.

[B]

I come up here and I clean the grave off and try to get it looking neat, especially during Easter and stuff like that.

[A]

Curtis comes here whenever he can, whenever he can find someone to watch his father.

[B]

I got a lot on my mind and I come up here and just sit sometime and I just get out. I come over here and, you know, sit on tailgate on my truck and just be talking. Then I see too many people start walking through. And then I get in the truck and leave. Cause they see me, they gonna come and talk to me, you know?

[A]

Curtis said he sits there and talks to his mom about all kinds of things.

[B]

I can have a conversation with my mom, you know, talk about things that are going on, what I'm feeling. So I come up here. I said, mom, you know what I'm going through. You know, I'm taking care of daddy, you know, and. Or can't get nobody else to come and relieve me and do stuff like that. Cause mama always tell me, baby, you can talk to me about anything. And I do it. I still do it to this day.

[A]

I mean, you talk to your mom probably more than anybody while you were in prison, right? I mean, you talked to her, like, every day?

[B]

Every day. Sometimes three, four times a day. And these are like $25 a call.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She always want to know what's going on with me, am I all right? But my mom, she was always like that.

[A]

Do you feel like she's with you when you're sitting there?

[B]

Every time I leave, I got this sense of calm over me, you know?

[A]

We had to get back to the house. The caregiver needed to leave at one.

[B]

Damien, Daddy got to do it again. One on one. Yeah, I hope she been keeping him up. Cause if he been sleeping. I'm gonna kiss you.

[A]

Curtis headed inside to check on his dad.

[B]

Hey, what daddy doin'? He had woke up from bed. He wanted to lay down.

[A]

So it turned out the new caregiver had mistakenly allowed Archie to take a nap, throwing off the schedule.

[B]

Okay, but I normally try to keep at night. Okay, but he said, I want to go lay down.

[A]

So now Curtis was guessing he'd be up late trying to get his dad to go to sleep.

[B]

He just trying to cheat on me. Oh, he trying to. Oh, well, he got you. So he keep me up all night. So he got you today. Then I asked him, was he ready to get up? Cause he just woke up. That way you can see everybody. Oh, see, again. I know you don't want to see me. You see me every day, every night. I don't know. All these beautiful faces. In God water There ain't no danger. Oh, in God's water. I know. You sound pretty good to be a rookie.

[A]

After a few days, our trip had come to an end, and we had a plane to catch. In Memphis, we said goodbye to Archie Flowers. Well, I'm glad we got a chance to see you, Mr. Flowers. It was really good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Do be careful.

[A]

Take it easy.

[B]

I won't do that.

[A]

Okay. Curtis followed us outside to the car.

[B]

You guys can't think of anything else?

[A]

I think we're good. We're good. It's been really so good to see you.

[B]

You are, too.

[A]

And it's been too long. And we shouldn't let another five years go by.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. Y' all can come back sooner than that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I hate to see you go now. I feel like we've been together all week.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Great to see you, too.

[A]

None of us really wanted the visit to be over.

[B]

Call me.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Anyway, I'm gonna miss you guys. If y' all get bored going up the road, call me. All right?

[A]

Sounds good.

[B]

All right. I wish he had brought the car to take you to the airport before I let you go.

[A]

Bye, Curtis. Great to see you. Bye. Curtis walked back inside. There were dishes to wash, pills to crush, meals meals to prepare, songs to sing. His father was waiting for him. We visited Curtis and Archie back in March. After we finished writing this episode and were preparing to release it, we received some sad news from Mississippi. Curtis's father, Archie Flowers, had died. He passed away Peacefully on Monday, October 6th. Curtis and Curtis's sister, Priscilla, or by his side. I talked to Curtis the day after his father died. He told me about their last conversation. He said his dad asked him to be there for the family. Archie said, I need you to be the glue for everybody. Keep them together and make sure they stay happy. Because Daddy's tired and I'm ready. Archie Flowers was 83 years old. This episode was reported and produced by me, Madeline Barron, and managing producer Samara Freemark, with help from Raymond Tungakar, reporter Parker Yesko, and producer Natalie Jablonski. It was edited by Allison McAdam. Additional editing by Willing Davidson and Julia Rothschild. This episode was mixed by Corey Schreppel. Music by Johnny Vincevans and Gary Meister. Fact checking by Teresa Matthew and Raymond Tungakar. Legal review by Fabio Bertoni. Our managing editor is Julia Rothschild. The head of Global audio for Conde Nast is Chris Bannon. The editor of the New Yorker is David Remnick. You can support our work by subscribing to the New Yorker at newyorker.com/dark and. Thank you. If you're a reader, or even an aspirational reader, I hope you'll join us on Critics at Large from the New Yorker. Each week on this show. We make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here.

[B]

And because we're culture critics, we just love to go back to the text.

[A]

Yes. So if books are for you, Critics at Large just might be for you as well. Join us on Critics at Large from the New Yorker every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts from prx.