← In The Mix with Marvin Joles
In The Mix with Marvin Joles
From Asphalt Dreams to National Contracts: Lessons with PaveCo Pros Ep. #31
00:55:11
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Today's episode of in the Mix is powered by Jobber.
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Welcome to in the Mix, paving the way to insight, education and entertainment in the asphalt industry. Your host, Marvin Joelz, a best of Web Pavement award winner, knows the blacktop community and what it takes to win in this industry. Each episode you'll hear real stories, expert insights and road tested strategies from the people who make up the asphalt world and beyond. Whether you're paving parking lots, ceiling driveways, striping lines, or innovating asphalt tech, this is the podcast for pros who keep the industry rolling. Now here's Marvin.
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C
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of in the Mix and I'm excited about this one. You guys may have seen some footage last year of a really cool party that we did and it was with Paveco National. I think I'm one of the first people to get like Paveco merch way back in like 20, 20, 2019. I don't know where I snagged it or if it just got sent to me or what, but I remember the sunglasses were badass. So it was the middle of summer and I was like, I'm throwing these things on. I think I made a post and just tagged Papo. Since then it has snowballed into this relationship of like minded people and I get to get a little kind of behind the curtains look of almost every company, whether that's a contracting company, whether that's a OEM or whether it's a small company or anything. Right. Even bigger organizations. And I've always just been attracted to the vibe at Paveco and I think that's why the party worked out well for us when we were in Chattanooga and did a get together. And now going into 2026, I have the pleasure of having Darren and Matt on to talk about Paveco, but also national contracting subcontracting. The things that we've seen, the things that we've learned, I'm going to open up. I'm going to ask Darren if you introduce yourself and let us know, like who you are, your role at Paveco, you know, you can go as deep as you want with this one or you leave it at the surface. That's up to you. We've, we've got into some, some good conversations before, so please introduce yourself, my friend.
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D
Yeah.
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Thanks, Marvin, for having us. First and foremost, really, I appreciate all your support through the years and the relationship that we built, obviously, and continue to build. It's always nice to do business and things with people that you enjoy doing. Business with and that you hang out with outside of work. And not, you know, not just the transactional thing. That's kind of where we. What we try to do anyways is build those relationships with big relationship people. So work hard, play hard, have fun, and life's too short to work with dicks. So we try to. We try to avoid that. But. So a little backstory. Me, I started Paid co back in 2013, actually out of a. From coming out of my previous life of being in the commercial real estate space and seeing a need to find a good contractor, that paving and concrete contractor. Because in South Florida I kept hearing the same thing and kept having a struggle when I was doing asset management that. To find a good company. And my buddies that own shopping centers and other property managers and things all said the same thing. They had the same roofer for 30 years, the same AC guy for 30 years, but they had. They tried every different asphalt contractor. So I saw a need and thought to fill that need. And so I started Paveto back then. And then that, you know, from all the mistakes you could possibly make, I think we made them all and then some throughout the years. And so, you know, it's. It's not an easy business. Obviously, we understand that being in the field and. And then started really 2019, going into early 2020 was when we started the national side because we were. We were asked by several of my clients that had stuff in Florida that we're already doing a word for if we could expand for them and go work with them in other areas. And then Paid co Natural started and we were all excited for that in 2020. And then our favorite friend was Covid came about and punch us in the face and say, well, that's a good idea. But yeah, there's this Covid thing you have to deal with and watch your business just stop. So that was fun and took a little of the wind out of our sails, but recovered and been growing every year. And again, there's some learning mistakes that we made, but every year gets better and better. And we just come from a different place as far as the national side because we worked for so many local. We did the local work for so many national companies before that.
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C
Yep.
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A
So we kind of see what. What we didn't like and how things that. That happened that we thought we could do a little different and spin it around for the. For what we call. We don't even like to call them subcontractor. We like to call partners. Yeah, I think we're in this together, you know, and have a better relationship that way than just, you know, the term subcontractor just for us.
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C
So, yeah, it's been, it's been a unique spin, like after, after Covid and just seeing like, I don't know, man, I felt like the industry was the same for decades. And then Covid put a weird spin on things. And coming out of COVID capital investment dollars got involved and like it was just a weird thing to where all of a sudden we kind of seen a little bit pre Covid that national contractor companies were starting but had never had a piece of equipment, never put any blacktop down, never seal code, never done anything. And it made this weird dynamic of just like our industry. Pretty much you were in it. That's how, I mean, you started in it and then you built within it. And we've seen a lot of people from outside industries around the COVID time, 2020, that just jumped over here from like wherever because they had a buddy that worked in New York for a capital investment firm and they heard there's lots of money here and they made it get started. So it's been a weird, weird little dynamic, but it's something when you realize that there's some companies who had just started to gain the ground. Then Covid hit and it was kind of like a 5050. A lot of those companies went under and some of them adjusted, made the adjustments, learned the mistakes, got skinny, weaseled their way through the hole, and then have come out the other side. And it's, it's been pretty fruitful for us. So, you know.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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C
And I think to put it together. Yeah.
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And I think to add to that too is also the, the AI component that everybody, you know, that's starting to get traction and that scaring people as far as like a lot of jobs going away. So they go, what, what jobs aren't going away? The blue collar jobs.
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D
Yeah.
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So a lot of big money and private equity and those guys from New York said, you know, where can we, where can we go? That we feel is a little insulated from that. And you know, across the board, from the roofing side to AC to, you know, there's a lot of money chasing those. I think why our industry has changed a lot because they don't have some stupid numbers on that private equity money.
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C
It's got to be in the top three of the most revenue producing blue collar industries in, in the country. I would, I would imagine it's roofing H vac and then it's Got to be close between like asphalt. Probably is. It had. Has to be top three and then there's.
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Yeah, I think there's plumbing and. Yeah, I think plumbing and electricals up there. But the, you know, the multiples I see on the H VAC space and the plumbing and the roofing space, you know that. I know it seems like the asphalt business, the multiple isn't as high as like an H VAC company, but. But yeah, there's still a lot of money out there chasing them. So it is interesting dynamic to see.
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C
All right, Big Matt, me and you've been together in a lot of stuff, bro.
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D
Yep.
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C
Different events, different parties, different everything under the sun, man. We've also talked to contractors together and done a lot of different things on social and whatnot. What is your role? What is your main role for that? If I was going to give you a title, what would it be?
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D
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard to put a single title. You know, I jump around definitely a lot. But lately since, you know, the national side has been expanding, I try to kind of be like our partner subcontractor, liaison. You know, some of our project coordinators are dealing with some issues. Maybe one of our subcontractors or clients a little unruly. You know, the guys are on site, they're dealing with, you know, a property manager that's being pain in the ass. I'm usually the one to step in, explain, you know, maybe to the property manager, like, look, we're here like we're trying to get things done safely. We're trying to leave access to your store and sometimes you get it like, you know, your site foreman maybe a little hard headed and isn't explaining it to the property manager correctly.
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And you know, I just try to
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play that middleman role a lot of times on some of these bigger projects. I'm on site too, you know, and the guys on site, they're on the paver, they're on the equipment, they like to pay. Let them do their thing. I'm really good at kind of kissing after some of these property managers. That's what they want to hear.
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A
They want to hear their.
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D
Right there, you know, the golden child out there. So, yeah, I mean, I, I guess I'm a little bit of a. I guess a liaison.
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C
Yeah.
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For stuff like that. Yeah. Yep. If, you know, even if, if some of our partners are having some issues getting, you know, paid or maybe they're not communicating with someone on our team very well.
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Same thing.
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I like to step in, you know, Try to keep everybody happy because we. We know the game. Sometimes shit happens down the road.
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C
But that's. What's that so different when I speak to you all is there's a field first mentality. Just like that. That is where the point, where the hinge point is like, it's always on the blacktop. That's where your focus is. And it's like the client is going to meet us at the black top or our partners are going to meet us at the blacktop. If there's an issue, it's at the blacktop. It's always a first mentality. What do you think are some of the. And I'll bust straight to you on this one, Matt. And then, Darren, you can jump in if you'd like. But what are some of the common frustrations that, like, partners have with national contractors? Like, as a subcontractor myself, I can name a few, but, like, on the back end, I've never been where you all are sitting in that seat. What are common frustrations?
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Obviously, you know, payment terms are always the big one. You know, you can go on days and days about that. We hear a lot of feedback, even if it's not, you know, like, you know, if a sub didn't win a job, want to know, like, hey, was it too high? You have another subcontractor in the area that you know you like better than me. Where did we go wrong? You know, we dealt with it all the time. We send out bid after bid, and we don't hear anything. Even if it's bad news, we like to hear that news or partners want
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to hear that news.
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So it's. It's feedback after the bid. And again, whether it's one or not won by them, you know, they just don't want to have that thing sitting out there. Other than that. Yeah. Site communication. Whether it's myself or one of our other project managers being on site, you know, and actually backing our partners.
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C
Yeah.
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Where, you know, a lot of them run into the shoes, where it's like, they went out there, they did the job, they quoted, they did it to spec. But now, 30 days down the road, maybe there's a little piece of asphalt raveling where a tractor trailer parked and jackknifed. And the asphalt's coming up and the client's like, well, you need to fix this for free.
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C
Yeah.
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And, you know, the national guy kind of bends over and says, yeah, subcontractor, like, go out there and fix it for free.
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C
Yeah.
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And they're not backing their subcontractor again, we've been in the business, I've been in the field for years. I grew up in this. I can talk the talk a little bit. And we do try to back our subcontractors a lot more.
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E
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C
Darren, on your side of it, man, to be the contractor for seven years and then beyond, then go national, you had to have some experience of like if we're going to go national and we're gonna, we're gonna take on partners, higher partners. I know that I would wanted it like this when I was a paver. Is that where this mindset comes from when it comes to. With Paveco just being the essentially the partner that subs want to work with.
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I want to treat people like, you know, it's the golden rule and treat people like you want to be treated. And I saw a big disconnect between on the national, the big boys that were, you know, we did a ton of work for, we did work for all of them in south Florida. They all wanted exclusive. We didn't, we wouldn't do that. Just oh you, you name it, we see, we saw it from these national providers that we were always the low man on the totem pole and we're out there killing ourselves to the make them look good. And then it's oh, look what I'm doing for you. And it's like it was just such a one sided relationship.
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C
Yeah.
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That's not any way to have a relationship. It's a bad relationship when it becomes that way. So it's like, look, we know how hard it is. We've done it, we've been in the field, we've had all the equipment, the guys, all that. And it's construction. Things certain go wrong. But let's work together and find this solution. Not point fingers and just go, oh well it's all you or it's all us. Like, it's like how do we, we're all trying to get the same goal, make money, move on to the next job and, and, you know, be profitable and keep the customer happy at the same time and, and work through that together. And not just, let's just see what we can squeeze out of our partner, you know, because it's, that's not a good relationship. And you might do it one time, but you're not going to do it a second. And that's not what we want. We want guys that, you know, we all go to bat for each other at the end of the day and we all make money. That's what we're here for. We all want to make and not have too many headaches if we can help it.
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C
We've got, we've got clients that we've worked for at Wisco now over, over two decades. And it maybe back then when I was first starting out, I could have probably squeezed a little more out of them because they didn't know quite what was going on. But I've been working with them now for two decades on repeat work. All it would have took was one time of them feeling like they were getting screwed over. And that job's gone and gone forever. And I think that that mentality switches. It carries over, forgive me. It carries over to the national and subcontractor relationship, where if you get a good relationship that could last decades and you're like, and Matt was talking about earlier, you know, we want to back the, the subcontractor, our partner. You could roll it over into the next job. What's one job, you know? So rather than try to win every job at all costs, the focus of winning the relationship right between your partner and hopefully a good client. So at this point, we're vetting our clients. Like, I'm not taking every job, no matter what. I'm vetting the client and being like, this is going to be a pain in my ass. There's no way I'm jacking with this person like through this thing. We're essentially vetting that as well. That seems like the best way for long term health for your business is essentially knowing, like, if I take this job on, I know I got, I got a list hitters right here. I'm not scouring Facebook pages or putting something on LinkedIn saying, hey, does anybody know of a contractor, wherever, whatever. We already have our list of hitters. We're just going to get into the game. That's what's different about you. All that it, that it's been built that way and that's based on Some of these things, like the repeat work that comes through, I know you guys got that for a lot of the partners, if not all of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, Darren, you guys stick the net 30 pretty tight.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And depending on some jobs, obviously it could go to 60, but we have that conversation up front depending on what the job is and we try to get maybe some draw payments out or, or whatever. But yeah, we're. My ultimate goal is 30 or less with people and my real goal is even to get lower than that. But we're working on that because it's true. Like we want everybody to. Even if, you know, we pay before we get paid on a lot of occasions. And because I get the cash flow game, I get it because we've experienced it and we, you know, everybody, I think, deals with it at some point and, and the more we can help with that, you know that that's a good partner. Like if, you know, if I have it to help help you, then, you know, I'm not just going to hold it to squeeze you. And like we, we experienced that in on our side one time I remember is we worked all killed ourselves that year and then we got drug out over six months and then winter came and you know their M.O. i found out the national company wants to call their, their subs and say, hey, well we got your money. Now we. If you take a 3% discount, we'll cut you the check for the full amount. And I said, you know, with all due respect, like I thought we had a better relationship with this than this. I'm working in Florida. I don't need. It's. There's no stone on the ground. I'm getting squeezed it at like maybe some of the other contractors that take this deal. And I said, please don't ever call me with this offer again or it'll be the last time we talk on the phone.
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C
Because we agree.
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A
Yeah, we agreed to the price and, and our margins weren't that, that, you know, weren't that big because yeah, 3% was a lot of money for. Yeah. Because they squeeze you on every job anyways. And I said, it's just not right in my book. Yeah, that's not. We agreed on a price and then now you have the money and now you're trying to even get more out of me. I said, it's just that we don't do. We don't operate that way, you know, so. And I've, like I said, I've seen it. But we try to pay faster than anybody and keep that, keep the train running.
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C
Yeah, I think the, that's the thing too. You guys have probably seen this. I imagine you've taken on some partners that were kind of fledgling, right? And you're like, it's like make or break. Like this job might be the job that makes or breaks them and if it gets, if it doesn't get into their bank account soon enough, they could definitely be hurting, feel the pinch. But if it does, maybe they're able to reinvest that, jump on to the next project for you all. And you literally are funneling in ways for this business to grow for them and watching it grow. Like there has to be quite a bit of pride in that. You had to have seen that happen with partners you've carried long relationships with, right?
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Yes, absolutely. Where it's, you know, we grow together and it's a beautiful relationship because it is, it's like, hey, we know. And sometimes like it's that phone call, hey, can you help me? I got a payroll Friday. And it's like, yeah, let me, let me dip into my reserve over here to help before because I know we're not going to get paid for another two or three weeks or maybe 30 days, but let me help you make payroll. So one, you're not out of stress. Two, I'm a relationship guy and you remember those things and hopefully for the next time like I may be in a bind on a job and it's like hey, who can I call? Well, you, you know, like we help each other out. It's not just one sided on either way. If I can help with that stressor and help on certain things like that then, and if I'm able, then why wouldn't I help? If it's a good partner.
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E
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C
Or do you think that people who aren't working with national contractors who haven't yet think that they need to be a certain size before they do? For. From what, from what I've seen knowing some guys like there's some, some great contractors that I know now in the industry and they would go all over the country and it was a father and son and they had a wonderful sealcoat rig and they did some crazy work. Like a pair that I knew. Ernest Beckner, who passed away, he did the White House, man, he still called the White House and had pictures of a sealcoat rig on there. And I was like, whoa. And then that's amazing, dude. It was crazy. And then we were at the National Paving Expo and he won an award for the best marketing video of the year or something like that. And he wasn't able to accept it because he was in Tampa, Florida, seal coating a target that had to get done. He didn't even show up to accept his own award literally from the White House and drove that steel coat rig all over the country, just him and his boy. It's totally cool. That is possible. So I know people must. Can you dispel that image of like, you don't have to be, you know, a 20 person crew doing seven, eight digits a year to work with a national contracting partner?
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A
Absolutely. It's actually a lot of times with smaller guys like that are like that, more nimble and are responsive and they're, you know, the owners out there with it. Like, those are great partners to have because those are like, because a lot of we do a ton of maintenance work that everybody makes money in there and good margins and it's more about the response time and getting that knocked out for our client. So sometimes the big guys are too busy doing, you know, the big jobs and it's like, like. And that's how I started working with the nationals. Just like that. It was like, you know, we'd go, we'd have a truck and a, and a dump trailer and we were knocking out signs and car stops and you know, pot, little potholes and this. And just, you know, the crew, two man crew could do three or four little jobs. And it was a great day for us. And it is a great day for the national company because, you know, those are little, they're singles. But when you're doing four a day also now the day becomes a home run.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And it's like in the client's happy. And so like we used to have a dedicated crew, two guys that just did that stuff for the like the stop sign and the car stops. But no one in the big companies wants to run out and do a car stop. They're like, oh yeah, we'll get to it eventually. And it's. Yeah. And it's a month later. And now you, you know, the clients, you know, the manager of the store is calling and you upset the client over a 250 corn stop. And it's like, wow, we just ruined our relationship over. And we, we did a $250,000 job for him perfectly. But the $250 car stop is what, you know, is what ruined it because it took us a month to get out there. So I believe that the smaller guys are huge for us. I mean, that's like I would never shy away from, you know, just because the guys, like he doesn't have a. Two milling machines and three paving crews and all that stuff like that doesn't scare us at all. It's just more the community.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the communication, being able to build that relationship, it feeds. Like you were saying earlier, it helps build both sides grow. One aspect of that, I think, as I said in my early days, man, I can remember being on like driveways and brooming it because my pump broke when I was trying to seal coat it and I ended up having to mop it on. And me thinking, man, if I could just get on a Walmart parking lot and sealcoat that bad boy, it would be the end of all my nightmares. I could buy all the equipment, do all this stuff and get all those things. And I've yet to seal coat a Walmart parking lot. I don't know that now, knowing what I know, I don't know that I would got the opportunity. But what has happened is I've known some of my good friends that are in the industry that own businesses similar to mine and my size, they've been able to get into these larger clients through national contractors like you all. So I wanted to work with those big box stores and stuff, Matt. And could not figure out how to get in there to make that happen. They just were not going to be one of my clients. But when I develop a relationship with a national contractor like Paveco, all of a sudden I have access to those. And now I can start adding that to my portfolio. So on the days that I'm not working with a partner like Paveco, I still have that as like, hey, we did this. Like, we did this. If we can do that, we can do Jim's Bait Store, we can do Steve's Liquor down the road, we can do the Motel 8 that's right here in town. Like, we can do all that. Now is that something that's accessible through Paveco of like being able to take on these, get access to the larger clients?
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D
Yeah, 100%. You know, we put a lot of feelers out. You know, we love mom and Pops. Like Darren said, like the smaller guys are 100% we want to work with. You know, they're not charging an arm and a leg because they got all this overhead, all these trucks, all this equipment. And I mean, from my experience, you know, growing up in a family company like those, mom and Pops are the guys you want because maybe they're not specifically on that job all day, but at the end of the day, they're checking it out. They're putting all of that on their own reputation. Like, that's their baby. That job is their baby, you know. Yeah, they're a subcontractor on it. They're like, you know, the GC is getting all the glory, but like, no, they respect the job a little differently than some of these bigger corporations that, you know, it's giant CEO and it's, you know, handed down, you know, to other families or whatever. But it's like that family mentality of them backing their own job, you know, goes a long way. You know, they stand behind their own work. And that's like Darren said, like, you know, for a smaller company, like, could really, really grow you.
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C
One thing that stands out to me is the fact that especially with Paveco, I've been, I don't want to put it. I've had national contracting companies, I've had the same company reach out to me, but it'd be four different people from the same company over a six month period, right as I'm looking for this. So when I try to like, respond back, I'm like, who do I even talk to here? And from what I've gathered by hanging out with you all, it's like, hey, when you when we, your partner, like, you have one contact, we make it super easy, super easy funnel for that. Tell me about how that works. Like, if, if all of a sudden we're like, hey, we. Yep, let's see. We'll give you a shot and see what happens. Let's see if we can get together and work on something. What does that look like for me as a contractor?
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D
Basically, it's like, yeah, if you're already signed up with us and when I say signed up, it's, you know, there's no membership fee, there's nothing like that. It's. We've already kind of talked. We've been on the phone together. You know, maybe we did a zoom call.
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C
Yeah.
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D
You told me about some of the equipment you got.
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A
Yeah.
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D
Vetted you all that stuff tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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A
Yeah.
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D
I mean, you know, your main point of contact would be maybe one of our project coordinators who handles a certain account, but I'd be copied on those emails. You know, any, again, any issues with payment, any issues with communication, you know, maybe a scope change. It's always me and one of the PCs. So again, it's, it is a couple points of contact, but you're getting tossed around like, okay, here are cool jobs done. Now you're going to talk to someone. Accounting. Here's our scheduling coordinator. No, it's, it's one solid point of contact throughout the entire progress of the job.
- [28:19]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think that for me, as a listen, man, I know now, like, we're on my podcast, I talk about using Jobber and all these softwares and all this different stuff that I use. It makes me seem like, you know, Marv, I had somebody call me yesterday, one of my friends from New Jersey, and he was like, hey, Marv, I'm. I'm looking to upgrade. And I'm kind of old school. And I know that you're like the tech guy, you know, all this stuff. And I, I, it's cool that I have friends that reach out to me and think that, but I feel like it's completely underwhelming and I let them down. They call me because I'm like, no, dude, I still have calluses from last year from pushing the brooms, holding the sealcoat one. Like, I'm still, I'm from that world. I'm not necessarily digital world. And I honestly, truthfully, I really wasn't good with relationships, like talking to customers and clients. But I'm a hell of a seal coder. Like, I'm, if they do seal code competition at Paybacks. I'm definitely there. I don't know how they're going to determine it, but I always tell everybody when they're working with me, like, all my guys, I'm like, you guys are working with the best seal coder arguably on the planet right now. Like, like, this is it. I love doing the work. I still necessarily don't. You know, I build a relationship with you guys, but when I have to build a relationship with a client, it gets. Be tough for me. Is this a thing where, like, I got my point of contact with you guys? All I got to worry about is doing my job and doing it well.
- [29:44]
E
If 2026 is the year you want to make more money in your business, it starts with two things. Staying busy and getting paid faster.
- [29:52]
C
That's why I use Jobber.
- [29:54]
E
Jobber is software built for blue collar businesses, and it's designed to help you book work ahead of the busy season and keep your cash flow strong all year long. Their marketing tools help you get found, look professional, and stay booked. Not just when the phone's ringing, but before the rush even hits. And once the work's booked, Jobber Payments helps you collect deposits up front and get paid faster so you're not chasing checks or waiting weeks for the money that you've already earned. Bottom line, Jobber helps you stay busy and stay paid. If you want to make more money in 2026 with software built for blue collar, try Jobber for free today. The links in the description.
- [30:31]
A
Yeah, so that's kind of one of the things I also saw where the need and where payco could come in is like building those relationships with the customer where our partners that just want to go out there and do the work and don't want to be bothered by all the red tape and the paperwork and all that stuff on the back end with these corporate clients, and the bigger the client gets, the more there is and all these things, we take all that off your plate, it's like, hey, go do what you do and that you love to do and do it really well and make us both look great. We'll handle all this other. All this other BS that you know that most people you don't get into business, you know when you're like, oh, I love seal coating, okay, I'm going to start my own seal coating company. And then you realize, like, oh, all of a sudden you're not seal coding anymore. You're doing all this back end office stuff and all this headaches that you don't even want to do. We kind of. We help with that as far as. And to reg know where you guys can do what you're really good at and then let us do what we're really good at. Like, that's where Matt comes in. And as the liaison in between talking with the customer and phasing maps and all that stuff, that's just timec consuming. You're not making money. It's just brutal. That sticks you in the office.
- [31:37]
C
You've probably been in this situation. If I could tell you the amount of nights that I stayed up worrying to death about a client and having to deal with them, dude, it was probably. Look at this. That was. Honestly, I'm serious. Like, we. We paved a lot one time, and I was really. I was a small. A small fish. And I called a paver. And they're like, yeah, we can do it. And I'm like, okay. I'm not. I went out and scoped everything. It was a remove and replace. And I'm like, cool. Well, I have to do the line striping at the front. You all are going to pave this back part. Great. And they did their thing. I never went around the back of the building and really inspected anything. And then, like, a week later, the client went to get on it. And on the part that they had paved was a dumpster. And then when they backed up with the dump truck, it literally sunk all the way through, man. And it was clay underneath there and everything. Guess who was in charge of that job? The little old me. I still had hair. I couldn't grow hair on my face and still had hair on my head. And here I am. I got two. Two babies each under two years old, literally. If they decide, hey, we're.
- [32:48]
D
We're taking you to court.
- [32:49]
C
We're dealing with all this. I'm screwed. Like, west code no longer will exist. There's not enough capital there for me to cover my ass. Right? Dude, I literally was like, oh, my God, like, dying, right? And I would be like, it would have been great to have somebody else at the helm handling that. So it leads me to the question of, like, I don't eat sometimes. I don't. I still don't know. Sometimes we'll get leads. I'm like, how the heck did they even find us? And what would make them think that we're even capable of doing this? Is there. Is this a situation too, in partnership where, like, if they call me and they're like, hey, we want you to do Sauk County Regional Airport with a micro surface line stripe And Crackville. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Even what I'm doing is that is this relationship where I can call Matt up and be like, hey, there's this project here. I don't even know what I need or how to deal with this. Can you take care of it and figure out where you can cut me in, where I can work on this thing? Is that a relationship perk that I get?
- [33:46]
A
1,000%? 1,000%, absolutely. Yeah. Because that's like, if you're like, hey, I can do this, you know, I can do 30% of it, but there's 70% that, you know, makes me nervous or, you know, or I would love to be involved, but, you know, and help and learn and maybe next time I can do it, whatever that can look like. Absolutely. Like we. Because we've pretty much seen everything. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. And there are certain things that, you know, and there might be that phone call where you say, well, yeah, and there's a reason you don't want to get involved and here's why. And, you know, maybe pass on that job. Yeah, so absolutely, though, because we, we could be a, you know, a resource as well. Because, look, at the end of the day, you know, rising tide and it's all boats.
- [34:27]
C
Yeah.
- [34:28]
A
So we're all about, you know, collaborating, helping, because it's the relationship. So anything that we can do to. To help our partners, we're all about it.
- [34:36]
C
Back on Sundays, when I was broom and sealer, if you would have been like, hey, Marvin, we just want you to crack this. It's 10k of this 100k project. I'd have been like, hallelujah. I've been like, here we go. Yeah, your boy would cashing in on a payday and just been like, yes,
- [34:50]
A
tell me all I gotta do is
- [34:51]
C
go up and crack. I don't have to talk to anybody. I don't have to do anything.
- [34:54]
D
Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
- [34:55]
C
Like, that's the biggest, scariest part of it is like some people, I got a lot of guys that are in our. In the mixed collective that are young contractors who use the older contractors as a resource because. But even then, it still sometimes isn't what they want to bite off. Yeah, they want to do that part of the project. And yeah, they want to be. To work well for them. But if you're asking me for spec and if I need this type of insurance and if I know whatever, I have no clue. And it's going to take me a lot longer, especially if I have Like Darren was saying earlier, I might have 20 jobs that I could just be going and doing rather than trying to figure this dang thing out. It's a, it's a good thing to, to think about now if there's people listening or watching or whatever and they're trying to like profile themselves into if they are a good candidate. And either one of you can speak on this, like, what. Who are you all looking for when it comes to those good partners that are hoping to get into that lineup? I know I've made it like about a baseball lineup, but like what are some of the like the attributes like that you're looking for when it comes to who you all would like to partner with? When it comes to contractors, for me,
- [36:08]
A
it's, you know, it's the best subcon, the best partners that we can use. They're the most predictable. They're not the cheapest typically, but they show up, communicate, execute consistently and that's worth more than saving 5 or 10% on a, on a bid. You know, it's like if I know the guy's like just Mr. Consistent, he just, he over communicates with us and we can count on him. And obviously, you know, to the weather's coming, he lets us know ahead of time. It's not 10 minutes before he's supposed to be there that he looks as his weather's app and it's been pouring outside and it's in a totally different state. We can't notify our client, whatever, you know, just that communication is huge. And when the consistency not being the flaky, you know, oh, sorry, we're not, you know, last minute we're not going to be there. And it's like, you know, we have to justify that to our client.
- [36:55]
C
Yeah.
- [36:55]
B
Why?
- [36:56]
A
You know, and we understand things happen, but just get out in front of it. Like the paper broke. Okay, well things like that happen, just let us know, you know, as quickly as possible. So we can notify the client because the client, we educate them on construction and how things happen in construction.
- [37:10]
C
Favor breaks, every job. Then we're. Then we have an interesting. Yeah. So Matt, what about like you're out there with the guys in the field? Yeah, I'm in Nashville right now. I'm in. And my business is based in Wisconsin. I can't help but look at asphalt when I'm at pretty much any time I'm around it. So whether it's laid, whether it's in a truck, whether it's going into a plant, I can't help but look, not to, not to degrade asphalt maintenance in the south, but up home, if you get it on a curb, dude, they are going to see it and you are going to have an issue down here. As long as it's below the curve, they don't give a crap. Like, it could be on there in the side, whatever that is. Like, I'm very little ocd, but that type of stuff gets me going there. You have to have some pride in your work. Like, you guys, if we're a good partner, that's not me just blowing through and not giving a. And then being like, hey, papco, deal with it. Like, that's not it. You have to, I'm guessing you have to be looking for guys that have some pride in what they're doing 100%.
- [38:19]
A
Yeah.
- [38:20]
D
And we've seen it tons of times. And yeah, definitely the further south you go, the sketchier.
- [38:24]
C
Some of the things you see get scratched, bro. You get what?
- [38:28]
D
Yeah, yeah. Who's rolling up to the job in like Nike slides? You know, asphalt's coming down, they're their toes are out. You know, I've, I've seen it all. But yeah, going back to, you know, having pride in your work, you know, I've been on a couple sites where, you know, they'll come out, full army comes out, they have anot crew getting ready to shut the roads down. You know, walkie talkies, whether they got headphones, talking to the crews. It's like guys that have that extra step. And especially working with all these, you know, subcontractors across the country, you kind of pick at things that everybody does a little different and like, everybody's got their little niche. And you're like, wow. Like, you know, these guys are ahead of the game on this. But yeah, I mean, you see some of the guys that cut corners and they're like, now like, we're going to finish this section. We'll get to the end and then we'll come back and clean some stuff up. You're like, like, this isn't going to look good because now our client's going to see phase one done. And they're like, that's the end result. And they're already pushing through the rest of the lot. But then you get the other guys that as they're paving, they got two, three guys right behind picking up trash, cleaning up edges on the curbs. You know, maybe they over rolled it a little bit. The asphalt peeled over the top. You know, he's over there with a scraper back down that goes a long way, you know, and it's, and that's what a lot of people, you know,
- [39:46]
A
maybe they don't grasp.
- [39:47]
D
Like yeah, but look at the parking lot. It's beautiful. Yeah. But at the end of the job, those clients come out, they don't really look at the asphalt. They see a shovel in the dirt or they see a couple water bottles laying down. That's the issue they have. That is the first red flag. And then everything else is fair game. Then they start picking at seams or a line that's crooked.
- [40:08]
A
And we get that all the time.
- [40:09]
D
They're like, but look at the overall. Like yeah, it looked great, like 100%. But now our clients test.
- [40:15]
C
Yeah, they didn't have experience.
- [40:17]
D
Yeah. And we, we need those guys that pay attention to detail. Push, push, push. But also slow down a little bit, you know, take a breather, make sure everything's safe, make sure everything looks nice and clean. Because that's what, like you said, you're looking at asphalt all the time. I sit there, I'll watch, you know, road crews go to town. But to the untrained eye, people are looking at the little things. Overspray, garbage in the grass. So yeah, 100%, it's the guys that take pride in their work.
- [40:47]
E
So I was driving down the interst my way to Tennessee and went through Indiana and I seen some night paving. I seen these big balloon lights on
- [40:55]
C
the back of the paver that were
- [40:56]
E
illuminating the whole area where everybody was working. Guess where those came from. Portable lighting solutions. They're the only balloon light manufacturer offering the consumer a replaceable screw in LED bulb that is field serviceable in minutes. They have a patented slide in assembly and they have a push to rapidly deploy mechanism.
- [41:14]
C
So you know, you push down on the top, it pops up, it lights the whole area up.
- [41:18]
E
You push down, it shuts off. They're manufactured right here in the usa. There's no patch kits, there's no blower motors, there's no set screws and they're ul certified. So whether you're seal coating at night, I'm going to get one and put it on the seal coat rig so I can seal coat at night and see everything. See the area or whether you're paving at night. You can put it right on your paver. We got a paver now. So I'll probably build a mount and just swap that thing back in the four buy two. You might need this device. So hop over to portable lightingsolutions.net and put an Order in and find yours today. They are ARA members, APWA members, and Women of Asphalt members as well. Once again, that's portable. Lightingsolutions.net if I'm based in the southwest
- [42:00]
C
corner of Wisconsin, obviously around me are Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois. Is that like my area or is, is the, is like the nation open to me? If you guys are like, hey, is this something that you want to play ball in? Like, you want to go Kansas, you want to go Texas, you want to go here? Is that open to me, you know, as a partner for you guys to just be like, hey, you know, you can go wherever, do whatever if you want to, if you make it work.
- [42:28]
D
Yeah, typically, even when we, when we reach out to, you know, maybe new potential partners, we always put out there, you know, like, hey, do you like to travel? You know, how big of a job do you need it to be to travel? Let us know where you like to go. Being down in South Florida, like, we have some local jobs, we have guys from New York down there paving all winter. You know, people like to come south and, you know, it's, it's open. Like, you know, if you can make it work and you got a planned vacation with the family and you want to sucker them into going out. Sealcoating. Yeah, it works for us.
- [42:57]
C
That sounds like a game plan for me. Now Nikki and I are married. I just took on three new employees. I like that. Eli is well tenured by now, buddy.
- [43:08]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:08]
C
He's got like 12 years in the game, so that's it. He's makes for a great Crew lead at 15 years old. Yeah. So that's the, I think that's the, I think that that's just the big misconception with a lot of people is that they feel like, well, I guess I'm going to be their guy right here. And then, you know, I'm not big enough to do the big stuff. And I think that that's just a big misconception. All those things are just misconceptions that you all help to kind of, to knock out of the way, you know, and being able to have one contact. Darren, you've, you've assembled a team there that's a small but mighty team that has a national reach, you know, and, and for us, for me anyways, people like to work with Wisco because we're always a small team. There's six of us every year. In the heat of the summer, they're going to get to talk with me or Kyla at the office. They've been dealing with us two now for years. Our clients like that. I'm guessing that's the similar situation with you all and why you had longevity with some of these bigger clients.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah, it goes. Yeah, it goes both ways because, like, I have power in our. The people we work with, like Matt and those things, and other people in our office that I think get out of their way, you know, as an owner.
- [44:25]
C
Right.
- [44:25]
A
And let them a lot of times, like. And I have a bunch of relationships from my previous life in commercial real estate that, you know, friends that own shopping centers that we do or properties or apartments or industrial, whatever. Sometimes they just want to talk to me. You know, they want to feel like they talk to the owner. And I'm. And I, you know, if it's just use a Matt because he's on the call. If it's Matt was running the job, I'm like, yeah, well, did you, did you talk to Matt? Well, yeah, yeah. He's like, but I had a question. Like, in this. I go, okay, well, let me call Matt and I'll get the answer for you, and then I'll call you back. I go, because I'm basically going to say the same exact thing. And they're like, they're like, well, then I could call Matt and this is like a friend of mine. And they're like, I'm like, okay, well, that, that makes savage step, because if I don't get Matt on the phone immediately and then he calls me back, he might miss me. It might take me a little while to get back to you. But, but that having that point of contact for us and then, you know, letting them, you know, I trust everybody on our team that have been doing it for a long time, so it's like letting them make those decisions. And the same as we do with our partners. I back my team because, you know, that's. I, I, I kind of look at the, I look at the hierarchy. The, you know, when you look at a chart and it's like, you know, you always have the owner here. It's like, I kind of flip that chart around. I'm, like, at the bottom trying to support up to help. But I think that helps our team own. Also own their jobs, so they get the results and, and, you know, they can handle 99% of the things. And I don't want to be that chokehold.
- [45:49]
C
Yeah, yeah. There's a nice bottleneck there. If you. It's sometimes, sometimes some people like to be in that position. I'm not that guy. Like, I. I want as least amount of headaches as possible. That's why we hire the people that we hire and train them in the areas that they are and let them kind of be the expert at our company within those things. Whether that's here at in the Mix, right. This podcast is going to go to our producer, Brian. I never touch it. Brian takes care of it. And then it goes to Isaac, and Isaac decides what clips are going out, when and where, and how the graphics all look. If I had to be in position to verify everything and then review everything, this podcast come out three years later. You know what I mean? Like, it's just right.
- [46:29]
A
Exactly.
- [46:30]
C
Work, man. Yeah.
- [46:31]
A
In order, right? Yeah, yeah.
- [46:33]
C
That's an.
- [46:34]
A
I think that's the business. Like most people, when they're building a business and trying to grow and scale and things that they, you know, it's 95% of the issue is the. Is the owner that, you know, you have to look in the shelf, in the mirror and be like, what do I really want?
- [46:47]
C
Yeah.
- [46:47]
A
It's like, if you want to really scale, it's like, then you have to let go. And you know that. And mistakes are going to happen regardless. And it's like, you know, and you use them as learning, and everybody moves on and we get better from it. But, yeah, that's part of it.
- [47:01]
C
I think it's worked well for y' all to build what you have and. And to have that experience in the field and then to focus on the relationship with your partner, your partners first, has just been, you know, that's been an attribute to the longevity and your success. Matt, if you could. If you could, if you had one thing to say, like, one general thing you wanted to say before we sign off on the podcast of, like, I wish y' all knew this. What would it be you think of? Like, this is the. This is like the biggest misconception, or this is like, the thing that you don't get to see that. I wish you knew where you'd be like, I want to work with this company.
- [47:39]
D
I'd say. I wish you can see some of our team's chats, because they are about as far from corporate as you could get.
- [47:47]
C
Hey, I've been party planning with you all before.
- [47:49]
D
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're, you know, we're just couple normal guys and girls. A lot of us are working from home. A lot of us have families, have kids. I mean, we're all in the same boat. I mean, we're not. You don't need to email and sign off with this crazy signature. You know, it doesn't have to be anything too crazy. Like, we're all in the asphalt industry. There's nothing really corporate about it. We try to be upfront and honest with anybody. We left that back. If there's ever bad feedback, good feedback, we'll take it all. You know, we're all just trying to be better.
- [48:22]
E
Even before I had a discount code partnership with Brunt Workwear, which you can find in the description of this podcast, I was wearing their boots when patching or paving and their shirts and hats when I was out on date night with Nikki. I'm actually wearing one right now. Seriously, though, half my closet is Brunt Workwear at this point. I have three sets of boots, two marins, and a pair of the Omens, as well as a green shovel and
- [48:44]
C
hoodie that I love.
- [48:45]
E
It's got a snake on it. It actually has a pocket where it keeps my cell phone there in the front.
- [48:49]
C
I love that about it.
- [48:50]
E
And it took the place of my winter jacket last season. To check out their full line, go to bruntworkwear.com and use code MJOLS10 to save $10 off your first order of $60 or more.
- [49:05]
A
Like you said about the equipment, like, I started with a pickup truck and a dump trim, and I bought a 1984 Neo Silk coating rig with an hydraulic pump that I've taken apart and put together more times than I'd ever like to admit. And I've had sealer all over me. And I've had. Yeah, I'm from Kentucky. I went to. I went to college. And I said, you know, and I was in the midst of it all going, wow, this is what I went to get a college degree for. I'm just covered in sealer, and I'm $2,000 negative on this job already. And I'm like, I'm like, you know, and the rain won't stop. And you're like, can anything go right? And so we've been there from that point to now, and it's like, you know, and we've gotten punched in the face more times than we could ever. You ever want to think about and probably forgot more times. But. But, like, we get it from that side and like, so, you know, it's. And if you've worked with other national companies, we get that too. And we get to the stigma and the bad taste in your mouth. Like, let's try a little job. You know, let's see. Because it could be a. It could be a Great win, win for both of us that it's not like your other experience. So don't judge us by the, the other companies because I feel like we have a lot more to offer and, and grow together. And if you're looking to have more consistent, some more consistent work and be a great partner that from, like I said, a stop sign to a brand new parking lot, whatever it may be like, we love to hopefully work together because it's a two way street. It's not just a what's good for Payco. It's not what's good for everybody.
- [50:30]
C
Yeah, well, I think that I can speak from that personally. Right? Like, we've as far as like doing actual asphalt work, I myself have never partnered with Kate with Paveco, but our relationship has been multiple years now. And now finally, officially we're working together on the media side for the asphalt industry, with Paveco being the exclusive national contractor partner for in the Mix this year. And it literally came to a fruition of like, man, every time we get together, things work out good, the logistics work good. Obviously we're in front of a lot of contractors. All, all this time, all those contractors are looking for a great subcontractor or a great national contractor to work for. This seems to make sense. And with us, it like, if people are interested in like reaching out, like, if they've been listening or watching, they're like, hey, I would love to reach out and see if there's anything that we can do with Paveco. We have that information here and in the mix. Like, if you listen, if you're looking at any of the, the posts that have been coming out, the social posts have been coming out, or whether you're looking at or listening to the podcast, it's in the descriptions. Like, we have the information on the ads and everything. For you to reach out to Paveco and be like, hey, can we partner up with this work? I'm excited about that. Of like, we actually have an avenue now for people who are consuming the content that we make to get to y' all and be like, hey, yeah, the phone isn't ringing right here. Is there anything in my neck of the woods that y' all could have me bid on or do? Whatever. That's exciting. We never had that before. And that come from a relationship where we're all sitting down looking like, this feels like a win, win, win, and like a real easy lift. That makes sense.
- [52:07]
A
And for us, like, you know, knowing that you've got a great name. I said to our team, too, is like, we can't let Marva down. You know, it's like, for me, it's like even more, you know, because I don't want to call you go, Marvin, why the hell you got these Payco guys out there? This happened or whatever, you know, like, no, we will want it to be, you know, we like it. Like I said, it's just a beautiful relationship between everybody and, and so.
- [52:29]
C
Well, I appreciate you all joining me today, man. It's been fantastic to get some insight. I, I, anytime I can, I can peel back the curtain a little bit. And I'm always a fan of people who do things a little different and enjoy what they're doing. Every single time I've been around y', all, you all seem to enjoy what you're doing very much, and that seems to let me know that the stress and anxiety level is usually down from like a ten to a nine and a half. In the asphalt industry, nine and a half is baseline, baby. Yeah.
- [52:57]
A
You're winning. You're winning. Yeah. I still do have all my hair, but some of them are getting gray.
- [53:04]
D
Yeah.
- [53:05]
C
Yeah. Well, I want to let people know, you know, they can always go to paveco.com, the phone number. If you got your pen and paper outs. 952-256-9300. They're on Instagram, Paveco National. If you follow in the Mix on any of the platforms, you're definitely going to catch some Paveco content. As, as I said, they're your exclusive partner this year. If you're going to go to in the mix, mj.com you'll probably find a link there as well. You can also sign up for our news. PAPCO will also be in that newsletter coming out in the coming months as well. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute.
- [53:41]
A
Thank you, Barbara, again.
- [53:43]
D
Yeah. Thank you.
- [53:45]
A
Yeah. Enjoy Nashville. Don't have too much fun.
- [53:49]
C
Yeah. And I've learned, hey, this is just my natural habitat now. You know, it's. It's now everything's docile and winded down. The irony is when, like, people like you all come and to visit, like, hey, I'm. Then I know, like, I should be drinking plenty of water, make sure I get plenty for my base, you know, make sure I schedule my iv. Liquid iv.
- [54:11]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:13]
A
It happens. It happens. Yeah.
- [54:15]
C
That's what it is when you live in Nashville. All right, so for myself, thanks again. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Darren. For myself here in the in the Mix studio and for Darren and from Matt, as always, Asphalt is opportunity. Thanks for listening.
- [54:31]
E
Peace.
- [54:35]
B
Thanks for hanging out with us on in the Mix. For more on the world of Blacktop, head over to marvinjols.com and don't forget to follow Marvin on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok and YouTube for extra content, behind the scenes looks and industry insights. Be sure to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you got value from today's show, leave us a well worded five star review. It really helps more Asphalt pros find us. Catch you next time on in the Mix.