Podcast Summary
In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch
Episode: Featuring Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Rabbi Ammi Hirsch, Stephen Wise Free Synagogue
Guest: Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, international law scholar and founder of Israel’s Civil Commission on October 7 Crimes
Main Theme
This episode delves into the immediate and long-term impact of October 7, 2023, when Hamas attacked Israeli civilians, with particular focus on sexual and gender-based violence. Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy describes her harrowing work documenting these atrocities, the international community's silence, and the struggle for acknowledgment and justice. The conversation unpacks the failures of international legal and human rights institutions to respond to Israeli victims and explores the deeper issues of anti-Semitism and the manipulation of human rights mechanisms against Israel.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Life Before and After October 7
[01:42–02:41]
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy’s pre-October 7 life involved teaching international law, promoting gender equality, and activism for feminist causes.
- After October 7, she shifted to documenting sexual and gender-based crimes committed during the attack.
- She describes the event as “deeply terrifying,” highlighting personal fear for her children’s safety even though the violence was in southern Israel.
“I feel like life for us were simpler then… and now we're documenting the sexual atrocities and the war crimes committed against women and children on October 7th.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 02:00
The Immediate Shock and the Response from Human Rights Organizations
[02:49–05:30]
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy recounts watching events unfold while her father was hospitalized, feeling an existential threat.
- She swiftly noticed the absence of international, especially UN, responses to Israeli victims and hostages.
- Discovering that the international community had more information, yet remained silent, was a source of deep betrayal.
“I could see very early after the attack how all of these systems that are very soft law oriented… are failing. And I couldn't believe it. I felt deep betrayal.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 06:55
The Failure and Bias of International Legal Institutions
[05:30–11:11]
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy attempted to alert and mobilize international organizations, especially UN bodies, about the sexual violence perpetrated on October 7, but was met with silence or requests for proof.
- Many key international women's rights committees did not initially acknowledge October 7 or offer standard responses of solidarity and help.
“In the first statement by the International Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women… it didn't mention October 7th.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 11:15
“Some of the responses that I did get weeks later were like, 'do you have proof for your allegations?' This is not the language of a human rights system.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 12:44
Equating the Victim and the Perpetrator: Moral Equivalence and Double Standards
[13:39–16:32]
- UN inquiries into the attack were conditioned on also investigating Israel for similar allegations, establishing a false moral equivalence between Hamas and Israel.
- Later reports from the UN Human Rights Council grouped Israel and Hamas together without meaningful evidence, going so far as to accuse Israel of "genocidal sexual violence."
"It's creating this moral equivalence and also putting Israel in the same line with Hamas…"
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 15:20
Why? The Root Causes: Antisemitism and Demonization
[17:56–19:19]
- After reflection, Dr. Elkayam-Levy concludes that pervasive anti-Semitism and longstanding demonization of Israel underlie the international community’s inaction and double standards.
- Initially, she considered procedural or technical issues might be to blame, but ongoing silence and denial pointed to deeper, systemic bias.
“I believe it's anti-Semitism, I believe it's Jew hatred… delegitimizing our existence as Jewish state.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 17:57
The Nature of the Atrocities
[19:34–22:31]
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy describes unprecedented violence:
- Mutilated, burned, and sexually assaulted bodies
- Testimonies from morgues and returning hostages
- Abuse targeting not just individuals, but entire families
- She emphasizes the ongoing trauma and the vital need to document and analyze the evidence so that these crimes are neither denied nor forgotten.
“We're seeing videos… naked, handcuffed bodies… burned in the area of the genitals. We see abused bodies, women shot in their genitalia… mutilation of bodies.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 19:48
Ongoing Legal Battles and the Concept of “Kinocide”
[23:57–26:27]
- The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture recognized the suffering of hostages and, as a result of Dr. Elkayam-Levy’s work, a new term “kinocide” was coined:
- Kinocide describes systematic targeting and annihilation of families.
- Hamas intentionally perpetrated violence in front of family members, magnifying the psychological terror.
- Social media was exploited to further traumatize families.
“They murdered family members in front of one another, but made sure in some cases they leave family members alive to tell.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 26:33
The Psychological and Global Impact
[30:11–34:32]
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy recognizes a new “doorway to hell”—witnessing evil on a scale she never truly comprehended before, despite extensive Holocaust study.
- She notes similarities to atrocities endured by other groups, like Yazidis and Sierra Leone families, whose suffering the world also ignored.
- She remains committed to believing in the goodness of people and fights to maintain hope for the future.
“If there is hell, this is what it looks like. Someone abusing your loved ones in front of each other.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 26:39
“I don't think we have the privilege of losing hope in humanity… I insist on believing… in the goodness of people.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 34:21
Finding Hope and Measuring Impact
[34:41–36:55]
- Moments of joy come from her family and seeing youths’ engagement, as well as tangible impacts of her work, like influencing legal procedures to recognize newly discovered forms of victimhood and trauma.
- She and her team are helping families not only internationally, but also domestically.
Survivors’ Recovery and the Path Forward
[37:22–40:11]
- Recovery varies for each victim, with some seeking recognition, others closure, and still others new beginning (including having children after returning from captivity).
- Dr. Elkayam-Levy continues her work, preparing further reports and legal strategies to pursue justice and recognition for victims, reassured by the gratitude of those she helps.
“We're planning on releasing a second report on the sexual atrocities. And that's one of the hardest reports that I've ever written… I'm very hopeful that much of this work is going to be used for the prosecution of those responsible for October 7.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 38:59
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
-
On moral equivalence and institutional betrayal:
“It's using and exploiting the international legal system to actually wage a kind of war against Israel and to accuse it of the very things that they were victimized over.”
— Rabbi Hirsch, 16:37 -
On recognizing new forms of atrocity:
“One of the most important things that I feel that we're doing is giving language to the victims to describe what they've been through.”
— Dr. Elkayam-Levy, 28:43 -
On the failure of international law and permanent harm:
“The perversion of the sacred concept of justice to continue the centuries old persecution not only of Jews, but of Judaism itself infuriates me… It sobers me that as a species we have not made as much progress as we would like or think we have made."
— Rabbi Hirsch, 41:46
Key Timestamps
- [01:33] – Dr. Elkayam-Levy introduction, life before and after October 7.
- [02:49] – Immediate reactions during the attack and her family's experience.
- [05:30] – Engaging with international bodies, feeling of betrayal.
- [11:11] – Failures of international women’s organizations to respond.
- [13:39] – UN’s conditions for investigation, moral equivalence established.
- [17:56] – Confronting antisemitism as the core issue.
- [19:34] – Graphic description of atrocities and ongoing evidence collection.
- [23:57] – Introduction of the concept of "kinocide."
- [26:27] – Systematic family-targeted violence by Hamas.
- [30:11] – Understanding the depth of human evil, comparison to the Holocaust.
- [34:41] – Personal sources of joy and evidence of impact.
- [37:22] – Victim recovery, justice, and community support.
- [38:59] – Dr. Elkayam-Levy's future plans and hope for justice.
Tone & Language
The conversation is earnest, often emotionally charged with moments of deep sorrow, resilience, and hope. Dr. Elkayam-Levy is passionate, lucid, and occasionally shaken, while Rabbi Hirsch offers both admiration and challenge, injecting personal reflection and direct questioning throughout.
Closing Reflections
Rabbi Hirsch concludes with a mix of pride and anger, underscoring the tragedy of institutional failure and the heroism of Dr. Elkayam-Levy. He asks why the world holds Israel to a different standard, ultimately pointing to the enduring danger of antisemitism—a warning that what starts with Jews never ends with Jews.
For listeners seeking understanding of October 7’s aftermath, the quest for international justice, and the dangers of corrupted human rights systems, this episode is a moving, disturbing, and essential resource.