Podcast Summary: "In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch" featuring David Baddiel
Podcast Information:
- Title: In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch
- Host/Author: Stephen Wise Free Synagogue
- Episode Guest: David Baddiel
- Release Date: March 20, 2025
Introduction
In this compelling episode of "In These Times," Rabbi Ammi Hirsch engages with renowned British comedian and author David Baddiel. Drawing from David's rich background and extensive career in comedy, the conversation delves deep into the intersections of humor, Jewish identity, antisemitism, and contemporary societal issues.
The Evolution of Comedy
David Baddiel begins by reflecting on his early days in stand-up comedy, emphasizing how the landscape has transformed over the past four decades.
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Early Challenges: David recounts performing at the Comedy Store in London during the late 1980s, where securing a gig meant enduring a rough environment filled with inebriated audiences [01:43]. The room "for deep philosophical sort of observing and musings and nuance was not so available then."
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Growth and Nuance: As his career advanced, David gained the freedom to explore more profound and thematic subjects in his performances. He highlights his recent themed shows on fame, family, and social media, illustrating his commitment to balancing humor with serious reflection [04:37].
Notable Quote:
"The world is comic... in the seriousness of the world, finding the funny... that's a very Jewish endeavor."
— David Baddiel [03:00]
Jewish Humor and Identity
The conversation shifts to the essence of Jewish humor and its unique characteristics.
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Storytelling Tradition: David posits that Jewish people are natural storytellers, often standing slightly outside the main culture, which grants them a distinctive perspective ripe for comedic exploration [11:09].
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Subversion and Grounding: He explains that Jewish comedy often aims to subvert expectations and bring subjects down to earth. This approach not only fosters laughter but also encourages critical reflection on societal norms [11:09].
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Personal Anecdotes: David shares anecdotes about crafting jokes that resonate both within and outside the Jewish community, illustrating the delicate balance between cultural specificity and universal humor [09:11].
Notable Quote:
"Jewish comedy brings everything down to earth. We always want to subvert, we always want to undercut. And that's funny."
— David Baddiel [11:09]
Antisemitism and "Jews Don't Count"
David delves into his influential book, "Jews Don't Count," discussing its exploration of antisemitism within progressive circles.
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Core Argument: The book argues that within progressive movements, Jews are often overlooked or excluded from conversations about vulnerability and discrimination, despite a long history of persecution [16:30].
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Double Standards: David highlights how Jews are uniquely positioned, being perceived both as oppressed and as powerful, which complicates their recognition as a vulnerable minority [20:02].
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Impact and Reception: He notes the book's varying reception across the UK and the US, pointing out the challenges in gaining recognition in different cultural contexts [15:36].
Notable Quote:
"Jews are imagined as powerful. Jews are the only minority that are imagined in what I call a dual status way... Jews are both powerful and very disempowered."
— David Baddiel [32:51]
Racialization and Power Dynamics
The discussion extends to the broader themes of race and power, particularly focusing on how Jews are racially and socially perceived.
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Schrödinger's Whites: David introduces the concept that Jews exist in a state of dual perception—seen as both non-white and hyper-white depending on the observer's biases [21:50].
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Historical Context: He references historical instances, such as the massacre in York in 1190, to underline the persistent racialization and inherent racism faced by Jews, transcending religious intolerance [23:35].
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Antisemitism as Racism: Emphasizing that antisemitism is a form of racism, David challenges the American perspective that often segregates racism from religious intolerance [25:04].
Notable Quote:
"Anti Semitism is racism because I am an atheist... The racists don't care about religion."
— David Baddiel [25:01]
The Sense of Shame in Jewish Communities
David addresses the internal struggles within Jewish communities, particularly the pervasive sense of shame related to identity and vulnerability.
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Historical Influences: He explains how the legacy of persecution, especially in Europe, has instilled a deep-seated shame among Jews, making it challenging to openly discuss vulnerability without facing stereotypes [38:10].
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Generational Perspectives: Older Jews may conceal their identity due to survivor instincts, while younger Jews grapple with the fear of being misunderstood or minimized in broader societal conversations [38:10].
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Book's Influence: "Jews Don't Count" has encouraged some Jews to embrace their identity more openly, breaking free from the ingrained shame and encouraging dialogue about antisemitism without attached stigmas [38:10].
Notable Quote:
"Shame connected with Israel... Jews assume they will be categorized as somehow oppressors. Wanting to talk about feeling vulnerable is very difficult."
— David Baddiel [38:10]
Views on Zionism and Israel
The conversation explores David's complex relationship with Zionism and the state of Israel.
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Non-Zionist Stance: David identifies as someone who does not see himself as a passionate Zionist. He describes his connection to Israel as peripheral, feeling more aligned with his British identity [31:48].
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Challenging Stereotypes: He criticizes the simplistic binary that associates Jews solely with either being oppressed or powerful, arguing that Israel's existence complicates antisemitic narratives on both the left and the right [32:51].
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Critique of Protectionism: David opposes the notion of Israel as a sanctuary from antisemitism, believing that it is crucial to confront and challenge antisemitism directly rather than relying on a state for protection [32:51].
Notable Quote:
"Jews are a glitch in the binary... Jews are both powerful and very disempowered."
— David Baddiel [32:51]
Final Thoughts
In concluding the episode, David shares personal reflections on his identity as a fundamentalist atheist and the role of comedy in navigating life's challenges.
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Atheism and Tradition: Despite identifying as an atheist, David feels a deep connection to Jewish tradition and community, emphasizing that Judaism encompasses more than religious belief—it includes culture, heritage, and shared experiences [27:58].
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Resilience Through Humor: He underscores how comedy serves as a vital tool for resilience, allowing individuals to process and cope with personal and collective traumas through laughter [41:59].
Notable Quote:
"Laughter is a sign of resilience. It means we're fighting back."
— David Baddiel [47:13]
Conclusion
This episode of "In These Times" provides a profound exploration of comedy's role in Jewish identity and the nuanced challenges faced by the Jewish community in contemporary society. David Baddiel's insights offer a candid examination of antisemitism, cultural stereotypes, and the enduring power of humor as both a coping mechanism and a form of resistance.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps:
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On Early Comedy Challenges:
"When I started doing comedy... it was very rough... you have to fight your way through... in the hope of getting maybe two laughs."
— David Baddiel [01:43] -
On Jewish Humor:
"Jewish comedy brings everything down to earth. We always want to subvert, we always want to undercut. And that's funny."
— David Baddiel [11:09] -
On Antisemitism as Racism:
"Anti Semitism is racism because I am an atheist... The racists don't care about religion."
— David Baddiel [25:01] -
On the Dual Status of Jews:
"Jews are imagined as powerful. Jews are the only minority that are imagined in what I call a dual status way... Jews are both powerful and very disempowered."
— David Baddiel [32:51] -
On Resilience Through Laughter:
"Laughter is a sign of resilience. It means we're fighting back."
— David Baddiel [47:13]
This comprehensive summary encapsulates the depth and breadth of the conversation between Rabbi Ammi Hirsch and David Baddiel, highlighting the intricate balance between humor, identity, and societal challenges faced by the Jewish community.