In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch: Episode Featuring David Horovitz

Released April 24, 2025 | Host: Rabbi Ammi Hirsch | Guest: David Horovitz, Founding Editor of the Times of Israel

Introduction and Context

In this enlightening episode of "In These Times," Rabbi Ammi Hirsch engages in a profound conversation with David Horovitz, the founding editor of the Times of Israel. As a returning guest, Horovitz brings his extensive expertise on Israeli affairs and his adeptness at elucidating complex issues for diaspora communities. The discussion delves deep into the multifaceted challenges facing Israel over the past two and a half years, encompassing political turmoil, security dilemmas, and societal fractures.

Israeli Political Landscape Over the Past Two and a Half Years

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [00:59]:
"David, you're our first repeat guest. I've been doing this podcast for about two and a half, three years, and you're the first person I've asked back because you're such an expert on Israeli affairs."

David Horovitz [01:56]:
"It's been a very difficult time for Israel, I think you'd have to say, because of October 7th, the worst period in modern Israeli history. The government took office at the very beginning of 2023. We'd had loads of elections. There was lots of political infighting and so on."

Over the past two and a half years, Israel has been engulfed in political instability, marked by frequent elections and intense infighting. The government's attempts to legislate changes that would subjugate the judiciary to political authority have deepened societal divides, setting the stage for the catastrophic events of October 7th.

October 7th and Its Aftermath: Security and Societal Impact

David Horovitz [01:56]:
"October 7th, which is an enduring nightmare for Israel. It's anything but over."

The October 7th attacks, deemed the worst in modern Israeli history, have left an indelible mark on the nation's psyche. With ongoing conflicts involving Hamas and Hezbollah, and the looming threat of Iran's nuclear ambitions, Israel finds itself in a prolonged state of crisis. The immediate focus has been on combating these external threats, often overshadowing the ensuing societal grief and the complex political repercussions.

The Divisiveness Over Hostage Negotiations

David Horovitz [06:02]:
"Most of our attention has been on an ongoing conflict with Hamas, who are still capable of firing rockets at Israel."

The issue of hostages taken by Hamas has become a polarizing topic within Israel. Unlike the unanimous empathy seen in the United States, Israeli society is split on how to handle the hostage crisis. The debate centers around whether to prioritize military action to dismantle Hamas or to engage in negotiations to secure the hostages' release, creating significant political and social tension.

David Horovitz [06:39]:
"There's almost no effort being made on behalf of the hostages that does not have political overtones."

This politicization of the hostage situation has led to public disruptions and heated debates, reflecting broader fractures within Israeli politics and society.

Palestinian Casualties and Media Portrayal

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [14:12]:
"From the beginning, really, except for the first few weeks or maybe a month or two, that's the way the issue has been portrayed in the West."

Horovitz critiques the Western media's focus on Palestinian casualties while seemingly downplaying the complex realities of the conflict. He argues that the narrative has been manipulated to undermine Israel's right to self-defense, overshadowing the aggressive actions of Hamas and the resultant humanitarian crises.

David Horovitz [14:52]:
"The effort to deny Israel the right to defend itself... is orchestrated hostility designed to ensure that Israel would not survive."

He emphasizes that the portrayal of Palestinian casualties often ignores the strategic provocations and structural challenges posed by Hamas, thereby skewing international perceptions.

International Arrest Warrants Against Israeli Officials

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [18:42]:
"How serious are these developments, and how serious is this attack against the democratic infrastructure?"

The conversation shifts to the international legal challenges faced by Israeli officials, particularly the arrest warrants issued against Prime Minister Netanyahu and the former Defense Minister. Horovitz expresses that these warrants are perceived by Israelis as unjust and indicative of a biased international legal system that fails to account for the unique security challenges Israel faces.

David Horovitz [19:09]:
"[The warrants] are outrageous."

He asserts that such legal actions are resented domestically and do not diminish Netanyahu's influence or the government's stability.

Geopolitical Position of Israel: Is It Better Now?

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [21:09]:
"There's an argument to be made that Israel's security situation... is better than it has been in decades, if ever."

Addressing the notion of Israel's improved geopolitical stance, Horovitz vehemently disagrees, outlining multiple regional threats that persist or have even intensified. He highlights the enduring resilience of hostile entities like Hamas and the unrelenting ambitions of Iran, which continue to pose existential threats to Israel.

David Horovitz [22:07]:
"Hamas is not finished and it's anything but finished ideologically, which is just a terrible thing."

He underscores that despite surface-level perceptions of strength, the underlying threats remain potent and multifaceted, challenging the notion that Israel's position has significantly improved.

Future Outlook: Ending the War and Achieving National Objectives

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [26:30]:
"How would it end for Israel? Positively, what would have to happen for Israel to say, okay, this war is over from our perspective, we've achieved our national objectives."

Horovitz outlines the essential conditions for Israel to consider the conflict resolved. These include the return of all hostages, the neutralization of Hamas's military capabilities, ensuring that Gaza is no longer governed by hostile entities, and preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

David Horovitz [26:47]:
"We need to be sure that Iran, that this regime can't, can't get to the bomb because they're not very far away."

He emphasizes that long-term security for Israel hinges on both immediate resolutions of the current conflict and addressing broader, systemic threats in the region.

Criticism of Netanyahu’s Leadership

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [29:02]:
"You're a tough-minded critic of Netanyahu. You're very worried about domestic cohesion as well as threats to democratic norms. Are you able to say, broadly speaking, if you had to identify the one or the two or three major transgressions of Prime Minister Netanyahu and this government over the last two and a half, three years."

Horovitz criticizes Netanyahu for being an exceedingly divisive leader whose actions have eroded democratic institutions in Israel. He highlights Netanyahu’s controversial judicial overhaul, which aimed to undermine the independence of the judiciary, and his failure to effectively respond to the October 7th attacks as key transgressions.

David Horovitz [29:48]:
"Netanyahu, he has been inciting against the credibility and decency and representative nature of the judiciary."

He argues that Netanyahu's refusal to hold a state commission of inquiry into the October 7th failures, thereby avoiding accountability, further entrenches his problematic leadership.

Domestic Issues: Haredi Draft and Qatar Controversy

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [38:39]:
"Where do you think that issue is going to play out in the coming period?"

The discussion turns to domestic issues, particularly the contentious Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) draft. Israel's military is struggling with manpower shortages, and there is significant friction between the ultra-Orthodox communities and the rest of Israeli society over mandatory military service.

David Horovitz [43:04]:
"Netanyahu is pretty vulnerable. ... It's never been more prominent an issue because as you rightly have stressed there, this inequality of the burden."

Horovitz underscores that Netanyahu’s reliance on ultra-Orthodox parties to maintain his coalition makes him vulnerable to internal pressures surrounding the draft, which could intensify political instability.

Regarding the Qatar controversy, Horovitz discusses allegations that Netanyahu’s aides were involved in lobbying efforts for Qatar, which has been linked to financial support for Hamas. He expresses skepticism about the severity and prosecutorial success of these allegations.

David Horovitz [46:02]:
"I don't know how savvy all of these investigations are, and if they really are going to lead to prosecution and beyond that conviction, not convinced."

He suggests that these controversies might not significantly threaten Netanyahu’s hold on power due to the complexities and potential dismissals of the charges.

Attacks on Democratic Infrastructure

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch [48:34]:
"How serious are these developments, and how serious is this attack against the democratic infrastructure?"

Horovitz elaborates on the ongoing assaults on Israel's democratic institutions, particularly focusing on attempts to remove the head of internal security and the Attorney General. These moves are seen as part of a broader strategy to weaken checks and balances within the government.

David Horovitz [48:34]:
"That's part of this wider challenge to the institutions of democracy and it's very troubling."

He warns that dismantling these institutions threatens the very fabric of Israeli democracy, leading to increased authoritarianism and instability.

Conclusion: Strengths of Israel and Optimism for the Future

David Horovitz [51:28]:
"The strengths of Israel, I think, are its people. I think we're incredibly resilient and capable and innovative people."

Despite the myriad challenges, Horovitz expresses optimism about Israel's future, attributing it to the resilience and ingenuity of its people. He envisions a new generation of leaders emerging from the current turmoil, fostering a renewed commitment to public service and democratic principles.

David Horovitz [53:59]:
"Israel testifies to the resilience and the grandeur of the human spirit. The Jewish people's craving for life is indomitable."

He concludes by affirming that Israel's enduring spirit and commitment to survival will continue to drive its advancement, despite the ongoing conflicts and internal struggles.

Final Thoughts and Reflections

The episode encapsulates a critical analysis of Israel's current state, intertwining political critique with a deep understanding of security concerns and societal issues. Horovitz's insights provide a comprehensive overview of the complexities facing Israel, offering both a sobering assessment and a hopeful outlook rooted in the nation's inherent strengths.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Horovitz [01:56]:
  "October 7th, which is an enduring nightmare for Israel. It's anything but over."

• David Horovitz [06:02]:
  "There's almost no effort being made on behalf of the hostages that does not have political overtones."

• David Horovitz [14:52]:
  "The effort to deny Israel the right to defend itself... is orchestrated hostility designed to ensure that Israel would not survive."

• David Horovitz [19:09]:
  "[The international warrants] are outrageous."

• David Horovitz [22:07]:
  "Hamas is not finished and it's anything but finished ideologically, which is just a terrible thing."

• David Horovitz [26:47]:
  "We need to be sure that Iran, that this regime can't, can't get to the bomb because they're not very far away."

• David Horovitz [29:48]:
  "Netanyahu, he has been inciting against the credibility and decency and representative nature of the judiciary."

• David Horovitz [43:04]:
  "Netanyahu is pretty vulnerable. ... It's never been more prominent an issue because as you rightly have stressed there, this inequality of the burden."

• David Horovitz [46:02]:
  "I don't know how savvy all of these investigations are, and if they really are going to lead to prosecution and beyond that conviction, not convinced."

• David Horovitz [48:34]:
  "That's part of this wider challenge to the institutions of democracy and it's very troubling."

• David Horovitz [51:28]:
  "The strengths of Israel, I think, are its people. I think we're incredibly resilient and capable and innovative people."

• David Horovitz [53:59]:
  "Israel testifies to the resilience and the grandeur of the human spirit. The Jewish people's craving for life is indomitable."

This episode serves as a crucial resource for diaspora Jews seeking to understand the intricate dynamics shaping Israel today. David Horovitz's articulate analysis not only highlights the pressing issues but also underscores the enduring spirit that propels Israel forward amidst adversity.