In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

Guest: Jonathan Freedland
Topic: Journalism, Liberal Zionism, Antisemitism in the UK, and "The Traitor’s Circle"
Date: November 20, 2025

Overview

Rabbi Ammi Hirsch sits down with Jonathan Freedland, acclaimed Guardian columnist, novelist (as Sam Bourne), and historian, to discuss the shifting landscape of Jewish identity, antisemitism, media coverage of Israel, and the moral lessons embedded in his latest work The Traitor’s Circle. The discussion weaves together personal insights, current British and Jewish communal realities, and deep explorations of courage, resistance, and the enduring questions of good and evil.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Guardian and the Evolution of British Liberalism on Israel

• Guardian’s complex Israel history (03:06):

  • Early enthusiastic support: The Guardian (then Manchester Guardian) was a major advocate for Zionism, even influencing the Balfour Declaration.

  • Shift after 1967: Post-Six-Day War, the UK left and the Guardian moved from enthusiastic support to critical scrutiny as Israel became seen as an occupier.

  • Present-day editorial independence: The Guardian, owned by a trust with no editorial involvement, allows columnists complete freedom, including space for dissenting or critical voices on Israel.

    "I have never once been directed to what I can say in that column and never been told that something I have written can't be in it, including places where I have criticized the Guardian. And that is really the exceptional thing." — Freedland (05:48)

• Jewish journalists at The Guardian (06:59):

  • Freedland recognizes frequently feeling in the minority but highlights both visible and behind-the-scenes colleagues who quietly support his perspective.

  • He questions if the tone of criticism matters as much as the content, drawing parallels to robust criticism in Israeli society itself.

    "I'm at the metaphorical Shabbat table saying, where are we going wrong? I'm not saying, where are they going wrong? So the grammar of it is different, the tone of voice is different." — Freedland (07:27)

State of British Jewry and Antisemitism

• Contextualizing hostility (10:14):

  • It's worse than before but exaggerated from afar; most British Jews can distinguish between anti-Israel sentiment and genuine antisemitism, although sometimes the line is crossed.

  • British government, across parties, is actively supportive of the Jewish community, e.g., funding building security.

  • Day-to-day life for observant Jews is often undisturbed, even amid heated pro-Palestinian protests.

    "There isn't that climate of hostility. Yes, there are weekly marches... but that's not about hostility to Jewish life in Britain, even if there are placards... that sometimes shade into that and need to be rooted out and called out." — Freedland (12:25)

• On the blurred lines between anti-Zionism and antisemitism (13:56):

  • Freedland calls on critics to recognize how anti-Israel activism can bleed into antisemitic danger, intentionally or not.

  • He warns that distinctions that seem clear intellectually don't always hold up in lived experience.

    "If you are every single day railing against Israel and hurling at it the most extreme criticism... think very, very carefully because these things are not quite as separate as you might need them to be and like them to be." — Freedland (15:54)

Recognition of Palestine by the Starmer Government

• Mixed reactions (16:41):

  • The general UK public was largely supportive; the Jewish community was largely not, fearing it signaled a "reward for terror."

  • Freedland holds a minority view among British Jews, seeing the recognition as a way to revive hope for a two-state solution and facilitate international diplomacy—including the recent hostage deal.

    "If you believe in a two state solution... you needed to do something to revive it. And guess what? It's now back on the agenda." — Freedland (17:31)

• Public opinion on Israel and humanitarian issues (19:41):

  • The cutoff of humanitarian aid was a turning point that shattered even sympathetic support for Israel in the UK.

    "People found it unconscionable... No one can get their head around making Palestinian civilians suffer for what hamas did on October 7th. And that is what cutting off aid was always going to do." — Freedland (20:27)

Israel’s Reputation and Prospects

• Can Israel recover its image? (21:39):
  • Freedland: This would necessitate a change in government and new political leadership.

Freedland’s Literary Career

• Writing under a pseudonym (22:09):
  • Chose "Sam Bourne" for thriller fiction because his own name sounded "pointy-headed" and insufficiently thrilling for the genre. The pseudonym honors his son Sam and refers to Bourne (the year of Sam's birth).

The Traitor’s Circle & Lessons of Resistance

• On the origins and focus of the book (26:24):

  • Explores a network of anti-Nazi German elites betrayed from within—a true story constructed as a whodunit.

  • Drawn to this story as an “antidote” to his previous immersion in the horrors of Auschwitz while writing The Escape Artist; the new book probes the best of humanity after staring into its worst.

    "These people who did not need to resist, who could have very easily kept their heads down... nevertheless risked everything... to do the right thing. So this was the best of humanity." — Freedland (28:02)

• Why did these Germans resist? (31:12):

  • Motivation: Most had faith in an authority higher than Hitler—either rooted in aristocratic tradition or deep religious conviction.

    "That confidence that there is an authority higher than the government of the day, it's crucial. And I think it doesn't, it's not just confined to the Nazi German period. I think it has lessons for us even now." — Freedland (34:45)

• Broadening the definition of resistance (36:58):

  • True resistance isn't only assassination plots but also acts like hiding Jews, helping them escape, and even small gestures of noncompliance (like refusing to give the Hitler salute).
  • Value of individual action, no matter how small: "If you are one of those people who hid one Jew... you just made your own little gesture of defiance. That counts. That's not nothing."

• Historical perspective and takeaways (40:49):

  • Urgency: When democracy erodes, it can happen fast—individual action matters, and passivity can be fatal.

    "If you see that trend, it's better to move very, very fast. And then afterwards go, oh, maybe we overreacted. Better that than to leave it too long and suddenly find rights which to you are obvious and you took for granted, have gone." — Freedland (43:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Guardian's freedom:
  "I've been writing my column now since 1997. I have never once been directed to what I can say... Even places where I have criticized the Guardian." — Freedland (05:48)
• On antisemitism and Israel criticism:
  "If you are every single day railing against Israel... think very, very carefully because these things are not quite as separate as you might need them to be." — Freedland (15:54)
• On the power of small, righteous actions:
  "To save one life is as if you've saved the whole world." — Tradition, paraphrased by Freedland (39:44)
• On democracy’s fragility:
  "Germany before 1933 was a democracy. If you believe that... democracy is slipping away... it happens very, very fast." — Freedland (43:06)
• On the highest insight of religion:
  "Every life is precious, every life is sacred." — Rabbi Hirsch (44:49)
• On unsung heroism:
  "The growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts.... To the number who lived faithfully a hidden life and rest in unvisited tombs." — Rabbi Hirsch quoting George Eliot (44:49)

Important Timestamps

• 03:06 — The Guardian’s historical support for Zionism and changing relationship with Israel
• 10:14 — Realities of antisemitism in Britain: perception vs. reality
• 13:56 — The complex and often blurred boundary between anti-Zionism and antisemitism
• 16:41 — UK’s recognition of Palestine; diverse reactions in Britain and abroad
• 19:41 — How humanitarian concerns altered British public sympathy for Israel
• 22:09 — The origins of the Sam Bourne pseudonym
• 26:24 — Introduction of The Traitor’s Circle and the power of moral courage
• 31:12 — What drives people to resist evil: Faith, class, and personal conviction
• 36:58 — Expanding our definition of resistance; the importance of small acts
• 40:49 — Lessons for today: The speed of democratic backsliding and the need for vigilance
• 44:49 — Rabbi Hirsch’s reflections on religious motivations and the importance of everyday heroism

Final Thoughts & Reflections

Rabbi Hirsch and Jonathan Freedland invite listeners to reconsider the meaning of resistance, the fragile boundary between criticism and bigotry, and the enduring power of individual conscience. Freedland’s stories remind us that while most of us believe we’d do the right thing in the face of evil, history shows few actually do—and that those who do are often motivated by a sense of higher moral authority, whether religious or rooted in tradition. The call to act before it’s too late, and to recognize the value in every moral gesture, big or small, resonates throughout this episode.

For anyone grappling with questions of Jewish identity, the challenges of the present moment, or the enduring lessons of history, this conversation is essential listening.