Loading summary
Transcript100 lines
- [00:00]
A
Rabbi I'm rabbi ami hirsch of the stephen wise free synagogue in new york, and you're listening to in these times.
- [00:11]
B
Three years ago, ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt joined me on this podcast and offered one of the most memorable descriptions of contemporary antisemitism I've ever heard. He said that the hatred coming from the far right is like a hurricane, sudden, violent and deadly, while the anti Semitism of the far left is like climate change slowly raising the temperature until the environment becomes inhospitable for Jewish life.
- [00:41]
That was before October 7th. Since then, the weather has only gotten worse and the climate changed faster than anyone could have imagined.
- [00:53]
I asked Jonathan to join me again last week to examine the forces reshaping American Jewish life and to help us understand what it will take to keep this country safe for Jews.
- [01:10]
A
Jonathan Greenblatt, welcome back to in these Times.
- [01:14]
C
Thank you, Ami. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [01:15]
A
You know, I've told you many times, I so admire your work and your character. Like, Jimmy, just ask you, before we get into all of these questions of anti Semitism, just how are you doing? How are you holding up? How are you doing?
- [01:32]
C
It's a nice question. I mean, look, I, I will say right off the bat for your listeners, the feeling is mutual. Like, I think.
- [01:40]
You know, for a thousand, two thousand, three thousand years, in many ways, the synagogue, the temple or the ship has been our kind of organizing construct as a community. And I think so often we have leaders at the pulpit who, you know, they follow the read Torah and they help us make sense of it. But I appreciate about you is you help us make sense of Torah in light of the world, and that has led you to take some bold positions and demonstrate courage on me. And I think courage seems to be in short supply these days. So I appreciate you and your character. And so that's a way for me to get to. I think this moment is a difficult one. You know, I think we as Jewish people, sometimes I feel like we're frogs in the boiling water and we lose sight of the fact that what we are experiencing right now is not normal. And yet we've seen kind of some of the worst behaviors be normalized. So on a day to day basis, I'm perfectly fine. And in fact, I have never been more energized. I have never been more animated. I have never been more committed to the work. And yet at the same time, I would acknowledge this is very difficult stuff. I mean, we are facing cross currents the likes of which we read about in history Books. And now it's here and now. And so I don't think, I mean, I think we need to keep in perspective that this is not normal. And, you know, I'm reminded of it all the time. Ami, because of my job. I talked, you know, you have your congregants, I have my constituents, if you will. They're all part of our community. They're all part of, like, claw Israel. And I hear from people who say to me, this happened to my child on a college campus, this happened to my elderly mother at the grocery store. This happened to me at the office. And, you know, my heart breaks every time I hear those stories. Every single time. They never get any easier. Never.
- [03:46]
A
You say you, you're as energized as ever, maybe even more, because the challenges are more significant. And good people always rise to the challenge. You just round the clock out of a sense of responsibility and a care and concern for the Jewish community. And I think it's important for the Jewish community to know that whether or not, you know, they agree with every particular decision that we make as heads of institutions. The most important point and what's especially noticeable in you is just first of all, your capacity to work, your energy and everything about you is about concern for the Jewish community. And it's something I deeply respect because for me, it's not simply the Jewish community, it's the people of Israel, the Jewish people. And that's what I'm doing and you're doing. And you're doing it in a magnificent way, and I'm just very grateful to you.
- [04:41]
C
Well, it's very, it's very kind. I appreciate that. I don't know that I deserve it, but I appreciate it. What I'll say is that, like, you know, when the ADL was founded in 1913.
- [04:51]
We were founded in a time of Jewish vulnerability, of Jewish weakness. When Leo Frank was lynched, that was in an environment where Jews were routinely discriminated against. They couldn't get health care at many institutions, they couldn't. Or medical treatment broadly. They couldn't work in many professions, they couldn't live in many places, they couldn't attend many universities, couldn't get accepted at many kind of social kind of organizations. And in that environment, ADL was founded. So we were founded with this mission statement to fight anti Semitism and all forms of hate. And it's, it's driven us again, it's been this animating kind of purpose for over a hundred years. But, but the reason why we have this purpose, the why our Core purpose has never changed. Our core purpose is really, really simple. It is to protect the Jewish people. And so I don't care whether you're secular or observant. I don't care whether you vote Republican or Democrat. I don't care whether you keep kosher or you don't know what that even means. I don't care if you live in, you know, the Upper east side or like Lower Patagonia or the Middle east or wherever. My job, our job at ADL is, is unswerving. The time I wake up in the morning, the time I put my head on the pillow at night, the only thing that's driving me is that core purpose. Protect the Jewish people. That's it.
- [06:23]
A
And that's noticeable. One more question before we actually get to what's going on in the country. And you're, you're our expert.
- [06:31]
I find it, personally, I find it much more difficult now. I've been in synagogue life for 21 years, and I've been in Jewish life for over 35 years. Just find it much more difficult now to oversee, to govern, to lead a Jewish institution that defines itself as broad based, as, you know, consensual, because the American population is so polarized and that's polarizing the Jewish community as well. And of course, you know, on a, on a broad perspective, what is more consensus in the Jewish community than combating anti Semitism?
- [07:12]
B
Right.
- [07:12]
A
So do you, do you find it more difficult now than say 10 years ago when you started? And do you agree that it's harder now to oversee a broad based Jewish organization?
- [07:27]
C
Look, I mean, I think we could spend all the time talking about this, so. And I really respect what you do and what congregational rabbis and clergy broadly have to do because it has never been more difficult. So let's acknowledge that, number one, like our world is now mediated through phones, right? So the way that your congregation gets their information, it's no longer through the evening news or even the New York Times. It's through the algorithms that are individually and singularly generated for them. So again, a mother and a father and the three children living in the same house get five different streams of information. So the lack of a shared narrative is very difficult, really difficult. And again, these, these kind of systems, they segment us and they micro target us, and by their very nature, they are dividing us. Number two, let's recognize that we live in a time where there is a broad sense, again I would say enabled by and facilitated by social media.
- [08:35]
Where.
- [08:37]
Systems seem to be failing. Distrust and cynicism has never been higher. Distrust of the media, distrust of the government, distrust of the Congress, distrust of the law enforcement, distrust of the military, distrust of medicine, distrust of science, distrust of institutions generally. So in a moment where systems are failing and where people aren't seeing the outcomes that they expect or would hope for, that creates a kind of space that populists exploit. And populists thrive on scapegoating. They thrive in saying it's the system is failing, but it's. So it's not your fault, it's their fault they did this to you. And so I think a lot of that manifests in what I'll call soft ways. As you see, like the world get. Or like America get parsed into red versus blue. You know, it's them. It's them. And that's kind of soft in as much as it's not personalized, but then it gets personalized, right? And it's the Jew who did that or so. And so specifically who did that, which is really dangerous. And unfortunately, this. This disease has infected so many aspects of public life, including like our. Our sacred spaces. By the way, I hear this from ministers and reverends in different churches. Right. I don't think it's unique to us, but again, we as Jews were the people of debate and dissent. Our tradition encourages not just critical thinking, but a kind of like arguing, impassioned argument, which works until in the environment we're talking about, things become so explosive. And that's never been harder. I mean, if you don't have a shared narrative and systems are failing and people are scapegoating, it puts a real target on the backs of individuals like you who are trying to hold it all together. Now, here's what I think is so interesting. AMI is like, I don't think as Jews, we should expect or we even need unanimity, but we need unity, right? Like consensus. I don't even consensus with my wife on things. Like, we disagree all the time. We don't need consensus, but we need that community. So how do we, again, encourage unity? Build community in an environment where all the forces are pulling us apart. That is not easy. I'm exposed to it differently than you are. I mean, I'm kind of downstream to it, like dealing with what it generates, the, the. The Balagan that it creates. You're kind of upstream trying to hold that community together before it fragments further. And that's. That's a tough assignment.
- [11:14]
A
It is. It's. I feel it's getting tougher as the environment in, In America itself. Becomes more intense. And it's, it's like people see their intellectual opponents or even their political opponents, not, not so much as opponents anymore, but as enemies. You know that, that you're very existence as you know it.
- [11:38]
C
And if I might say something about that, one thing that I have seen happen in the Jewish community which I find so painful and so poisonous is when we, instead of like, look, I have a general rule, okay.
- [11:54]
Let'S say two rules. Number one, I will work with, engage with, dialogue with anyone. I don't, I don't, I don't parse again, by politics, if you will. My only red line is if you dehumanize others, then I'm not going to humanize you or dignify you with my time. So if you dehumanize gay people, I have no, I have no space for you. If you dehumanize black people, I have no, no patience for you. If you dehumanize Zionists, no patience, no. Not going to talk to you. But everyone else, I think is in play. Everyone else, I think is in play. So that's important for me as a standard. But the other standard is when I disagree within the lines of like, again, what our community is. I believe you call people in before you call them out. But we've seen so many Jewish leaders. I've seen it, I've been, I've experienced it firsthand, where they disagree with something we've done. And so they prefer to flame me on Facebook rather than picking up the phone and calling and saying, hey, what was going on there? Like, why did you do that? Or there certain groups whose names they won't mention, they fundraise against us and make up crazy claims about things we're doing or saying they're not true. So I think again, we need unity, if not unanimity. And we as a people, all of us, from the people in the pews to those at the pulpits to those at positions like mine, have to find ways to continually try to bring us together and resist. Because, like, when, when, when the broader world engages in these polemics, right. I think it's also very destructive. But we as a Jewish people, we are so small and our, our place is so fragile, we cannot afford these divisions. I just think the stakes are so much higher and the margin for error is so much smaller. So I hope, I pray that we get this right.
- [13:48]
A
You know, I'm glad you mentioned our minority status, because something fundamental has changed in America, I think, with respect to what Jews assumed life is like in the United States in the way that American society would relate to Jews in a kind of exceptional way in the context of ancient as well as contemporary Jewish history. And, you know, I. I think that it's just much harder now for American Jews to really understand.
- [14:20]
That we always were a minority. We are a small minority. This is one of the things that October 7th, I think, brought out vividly for every one of us. There are at least a thousand of them online and in all other places. And, you know, I think there was something sobering about the last couple of years, especially since October 7th, that emphasized to American Jews, again, despite all of the many accomplishments and the sincere acceptance on the part of the United States and our reciprocal approach towards American society.
- [14:54]
B
At the end of the day, we're.
- [14:55]
C
A small minority, 100%. I mean, look.
- [15:01]
Let'S put Medina Yisra' El aside. Let's put the state of Israel aside for the Jewish people. Since the enslavement and expulsion by the Romans, I believe that this country, the United States of America, has been indisputably the best home for us in our diaspora. In our exile, we have never lived with the freedoms and the privileges, and Amer never lived in a country with the kind of corrective capacity that this one had. Like I was saying at the top, I mean, when ADL was founded, Jews couldn't get medical treatment many places. Now we can wherever we want now. Jewish doctors are some of the most respected in the profession. We couldn't work in many professions Right now, law firms originally founded by Jews or banks founded by Jews are incredibly successful. Tech companies founded by Jews incredibly successful. We couldn't attend many universities. Either we were kept out entirely or quotas kept them out. Now Jews are at the tops of their class of all these institutions and so on and so forth. America has been so good to so many people, including the Jewish people. But we are foolish to think that anything lasts forever unless we're willing to fight for it. And I think many of us who've grown up in this place.
- [16:17]
Have become so accustomed to it, we forget that indeed we are a very small minority. Roughly 40% of Americans have never even met, met a Jewish person on me. So if you live like in New York City, if you live in Manhattan, one of the five boroughs, or Long island or Westchester county, you can't imagine that. But the reality is, almost half of all people in the United States of America never met a Jew. And the reality is, despite our concentration in this place, we're less than two and a half percent of the overall population. So the data tells us, if you just look at the data and ADL is a very data driven, evidence based organization. The data tells us that we punch above our weight and we can't afford to take this for granted. So aid, you know that old lotto commercial, you gotta be in it to win it. Like all. I mean, I actually think America is a contact sport and we're coming up on our 250th. America is a contact sport and every Jewish person, man, woman or child, young, old, gay, straight, right, left, observant, secular, however you choose to identify, you got to be on the field. There's no, you know, watching from the bleachers and assuming everything's going to work out and if your team loses, they'll come back next, tomorrow or next week or next season. Like we as a Jewish people need to recognize that again, our position is strong and yet it's also simultaneously precarious, fragile. So we better be willing to roll up our sleeves and get on the field and play the game.
- [17:59]
B
Yeah.
- [18:01]
A
Last time we spoke, which was, I think two or three years ago, you had this great analogy that you said right wing anti Semitism is like a hurricane and left wing antisemitism is like climate change. They're both dangerous, but one kind of blasts in on you and one creeps up on you.
- [18:26]
So we've. It's pretty stormy out there, both from the right and from the left now since we spoke a few years ago.
- [18:34]
C
Yeah.
- [18:35]
A
Help us understand what's going on in the right.
- [18:37]
C
So there, there are a bunch of sort of macro trends. Right, Right. I think one of the macro trends that's shaping public discourse today is what I'll characterize as sort of anti elitism.
- [18:48]
A
Okay.
- [18:48]
C
It's a kind of populism that manifests that, that predicates on identifying who's to blame and who's to blame are the elites. And Jews, historically and present, in present context, are seen often seen as the elites. Now sometimes we're, you know, seen as the impoverished masses and we're bad because we're criminals or we're poor or whatever. We're seen that way unfairly, but we're also sometimes seen as the elites. And so I think there is a kind of populism that has swept the country and it's specifically with respect to the right, like the extreme right. The anti Semitism has always been there. And the anti Semitism of the far right is rooted in like uniquely American strains of bigotry, like nativism or Isolationism or white supremacy. Now these may show up in other contexts, but there's a, there's an, there's a kind of an almost again unique American strain of bigotry rooted in these things. So those are like cords of a rope that are wound together and that rope is American antisemitism. Again, there's a nativism, there's an isolationism and there's a kind of white supremacy in that.
- [20:02]
I think it's been there for a long time. And I think the 2016 election really kind of took, you know, allowed that to come into the mainstream, allowed that to emerge from the shadows right here and now. And so from everything from Charlottesville to Pittsburgh the year later, 2018 to Poway in 2019, to the people rampage rampaging through the Capitol at these, you know, six, six MWE sweatshirts, six million wasn't enough to Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson. I mean Tucker Carlson has been bad for years. We've been calling him out at ADL for years. But now that he's like again in this podcast enabled world where there are no more guardrails, he can show up as his true self platforming Nick Fuentes. And even before Nick Fuentes, he's been having Holocaust deniers, he's been having anti Israel voices, even having despicable pseudo historians on his show for a long, long time. Again, who seem to be focused on one group of people. Ami they see all the problems centered on one group of people and those seem to only be Jews. So the right wing, far right antisemitism has exploded.
- [21:17]
A
But why tell us is it? I mean, you mentioned technology and you.
- [21:23]
C
Know, a native media has exacerbated.
- [21:25]
A
And you think that's the primary reason.
- [21:27]
B
As you say, it was always there.
- [21:30]
A
Well, like, you know, Tucker Carlson didn't start out speaking like this. He actually started out, it sounded like a pretty reasonable conservative.
- [21:38]
C
He was much more tame when he was on Fox. But, but without the editorial constraints, without the ombudsman, without the concern from Fox legal department about the liability he might create by saying slanderous or libelous things, he shifts over to his podcast on X where anything goes. There are no more constraints because if you are not liable on X or social media broadly, if you engage in libel, okay, so there's an exemption, a lot of social media companies to skirt the same laws that the same conventions that normalize discourse on broadcast or print or other forms of media, social media is, has an exemption. So I think what's happened is number one, 2016 kind of like lifted up the rock and all these parties flooded out. I think they have been swimming in this sea of populism that's been raging. Conspiracism and populism. I didn't mention that before, but the conspiracism is real. The Jeffrey Epstein stuff plays into it. You know, a lot of the MAGA folks believe it. There's a kind of conspiracism that creates a toxic stew where people actually think the Rothschilds or Jewish space lasers or whatnot are, you know, again, shaping their world. They are not. And so abetted, aided and abetted by social media populism, conspiracism have kind of been mainstreamed in ways that are new and novel. And now some of the loudest voices who engage in this kind of anti elitism, they look for someone to blame and it's the Jew. So I see this a lot. We see this all the time. What's scary is it's become the potent mix at the fe, you know, in the ballot box. So here's the good news. On the right, we are seeing even as people like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson and Ian Carroll and Alex Jones engage in this, in the Fuentes, engage in this toxicity, you have seen very responsible voices on the right push back from Ted Cruz to Lindsey Graham to, you know, a zillion other people step up and say, no, no, no, no, no, not in my party. Mike Johnson, speaker of the House, just did a big interview the other day where he literally said, we have got to deal with this anti Semitism. So I think folks on the right see this is happening. It's like a battle for the soul of the Republican Party party and will it yield to these forces of populism, conspiracism and toxicity or will again it revert back to like the kind of principle of conservatism, the kind of movement conservation that's characterized this part of our political discourse from Goldwater and Buckley to Reagan to today. So I, I think Tucker Carlson has the, has antecedents like the John Birch Society and the KKK and Father Coughlin. And there are people again like Buckley and Reagan who said, and by the way, George W. Bush who said no way. And I hope that those forces win this battle right now and that voices like Ted Cruz and others prevail. We need them to. Now, by the way, I should say ADL is a 501C3. We don't do partisan politics. I don't get to tell people who to vote for. My job is to call Balls and strikes, whether or not the person you know at the batter's box is wearing a red jersey or a blue jersey, same strike zone. But I admire the fact and appreciate that folks on the right are working through this literally right now as we speak. We have not yet seen that happen on the left in the same way. I hope and pray that it will.
- [25:21]
A
Before we get to the left. And we've, of course, had a very consequential election here in New York City that is part of that phenomenon just on the right for a moment. So there is this kind of ferocious ideological battle that has been joined. And on the one hand, it's uplifting to see that the conventional right realizes that this is something different that needs to be contended with and confronted. Are you optimistic about that? We hear surveys that many of the younger.
- [25:59]
Conservatives are now pulling away from a.
- [26:05]
Affinity towards Jews and a support for Israel, as happened in the left already, and that we've seen that. So who's going to win this struggle in the right in the Republican Party?
- [26:22]
C
You can't do this job if you're not optimistic. You know, like, optimism is not a strategy, to be clear. Like, hope is not like a play, but like, look, you got to be, you got to be on the field as a contact sport. Now, that being said, I think there are so many good people on the right who want to prevail over these forces of darkness because they realize it will not just claim the Jews, it will claim their soul. It will overtake their movement. It will poison and there is a long list. There's a lot of debris of ideological movements that have been poisoned by and ultimately undermined by the anti Semitism. Like it's a corrosive force that may create some early momentum for again, for some like populist bigots, but eventually it consumes everything and everyone around it. But I, I, I worry, I mean, I think if you saw there was a thing a few weeks ago about when J.D. vance said Ole Miss and he got asked a question about the state of Israel, I didn't like how the vice president answered the question, but was more salient was young man who asked it AMI and the whooping and the cheering that happened as he asked this crazy question about Israel persecuting Christians or whatever, it was terrifying. Again, not just what he said, but the response that you, this was an old Miss. This is not a, this is not like the Harvard Yard, okay? This is not like the Middle east studies department at Columbia University. This was Ole Miss. So I thought that was alarming. And again, you've seen this manosphere, which we've written a lot about at adl, our center on Extremism has studied it. That is a place of appeal to young, typically white Christian disaffected males. And again, the scapegoating that's happening, they're blaming the Jews or Israel or apac, is very worrisome. All that being said, what gives me hope, like I would encourage all of your listeners to go read an op ed that was in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks ago by Ralph Reed. Ralph Reed, who some of your audience may know, he was credited as one of the early kind of evangelical leaders who brought politics into the mix. He worked with Jerry Falwell, he worked with Pat Robertson, and he brought Christian kind of theology into our political discourse. Not in a way where he said we need to be a Christian nation, but which said we have values and that would may guide some of our opinions and whatever our policies. So again, he's not a Christian nationalist, but he is someone whose values driven, inspired by his faith, by the way, just like me. So what what Ralph did though, in this, in this, his pieces, he wrote a meaningful, meaningful.
- [29:02]
Perry and push back on the Tucker Carlson wing of the kind of conservative movement and talked about the central relationship between Jews and the Jewish people, the Jewish state, to modern Christian, not just theology, but practice and to our shared Judeo Christian values. It's very important and I think there are a lot of young evangelicals who share his disposition. And what we need to do in the Jewish community is make sure we're speaking to all of them. I think for a long time we in the Jewish community and again, this is a community that overwhelmingly has voted for the Democratic Party for years, not telling people how to vote, but I think reform and conservative segments of our community have not always been comfortable with their evangelical cousins, if you will, worried about again what their theology suggests about our fate. I'm worried about what did they have? Do they have ulterior motives? But I think in this moment, again a post 107 moment AMI today is October 8th.
- [30:04]
It's October 8th. We are living in an October 8th world and October 8th shook us to our foundations. And October 8th has forced us to confront things which maybe we didn't want to, maybe we didn't understand. And in October 8th world, I think we need to recognize and embrace those who want to embrace us, not by sacrificing our principles, but by extending to them the same grace that we have shown other communities. And I think that's something for us as communal leaders, that's for us as spiritual figures. This for us as Jewish people who believe in teshuvah. And this is for us as Jewish people who believe in our own kind of identities. And so I think we as a Jewish people need to recognize and need to appreciate our evangelical. I said cousins, but I'll reframe it here as brothers and sisters because I think we share so much. We have much more in common than the things that keep us apart.
- [31:12]
A
So talk to us about the left now, which you equated or compared to climate change. And I think maybe the dam is bursting on that. We're seeing greater effects on the climate every day.
- [31:27]
C
Yeah.
- [31:28]
A
In the left wing parties and very alarming Democratic Party. And now with a mayoral election in, in New York City. What do you say? Well, first of all, what are your general observations?
- [31:39]
C
So, so that the audience knows your reference? What I've said for a long time is anti Semitism shows up on both sides of the spectrum. Neither side is like exempt from intolerance. And on the right it was more like violent category 5 storms that blow your house up and kill everyone inside, like Pittsburgh or poway so many other incidents. But whereas on the left it showed a more like climate change slowly and steady temperature rising. And some might deny it and some might dismiss it and then finally you try to adjust and it's too late and it reaches a temperature level way up here. And what happens when the temperature levels up here where things have so unraveled, Category 5 storms from the other direction, that's actually where we are right now. So we have hurricanes on one side and tornadoes on the other. You have the same destructive force. Now again, it's certainly fair to say we haven't had a mass casualty event in America like, like the Tree of Life massacre, which was done by a white supremacist angry about immigration by someone on the quote, unquote left. And on the other hand, we have people on the far left justifying like a biblical catastrophe or cataclysm, like October 7th, literally justifying it, literally describing some of the perpetrators who were caught and captured as hostages, which is so profane I hesitate to even say it out loud. It's just so disgraceful and amoral. But the reality is there are segments of the far left which have been consumed by this anti Zionist ideology. And we've talked on your show before and I'm pretty out there saying anti Zionism is anti Semitism because it is. I also think the sky is blue you know, I also think that the world is not flat. I mean, anti Zionism is simply the latest way that anti Jewish hate is normalized and legitimized with a pseudo scientific or pseudo political veneer. But if you look at the tropes and if you, if you listen to the words and you see them for who they are, like the, the, the rabid anti Zionist is just an anti semi by any other name, by the way, even if they come from our Jewish community, we need to recognize that as well. If you dehumanize people, like, again, you delegitimize their very existence and you demonize them, like, I'm sorry, that's hate. No matter how you dress it up, it's hate. All that being said, I think we have a real challenge on our hands because the truth is, is that like what happened in our Mayol race here in New York City, like Mayor elect Mamdani won apparently with 30% of the Jewish vote. And so there are a number of people who heard what he said and still believed in him. By the way.
- [34:25]
Donald Trump won in 2016 with 30% of the Jewish vote. And a number of people heard him and believed him. So let's recognize that. I mean, I hear this from some of the supporters of the mayor. They say, well, what about 30% of the people who voted for him? Again, 30% people voted for Trump. That doesn't mean the stuff that President Trump did as a candidate in 2016, you know, again, like credentialing white supremacists for his campaign events was okay. And I don't think just because 30% of Jews voted for Mamdani, that somehow means that his breezy anti Zionism and his like, drawing equivalence between what happened at Parky Synagogue with these, with these rabid demonstrators cursing and threatening Jewish people walking into a synagogue. And he drew equivalents between, between them. Like, it doesn't square with me.
- [35:16]
A
Just for the audience, he issued a statement, he issued in the synagogue too, criticizing the synagogue for hosting what he called illegal under international law. Not American law, by the way. And not. And whether it's international law too.
- [35:31]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a total contrarian.
- [35:33]
A
It's ridiculous.
- [35:34]
C
So there was an incident at Parky Synagogue. Parky Synagogue is a large historic SH in Manhattan. And there was a. An event being held in the synagogue, like on a Wednesday evening by a group called Nefesh B. Nefesh, which helps Americans who want to make aliyah emigrate to Israel. It was hosting them for an event to talk about process and such. Nefesh be. Nefesh is a pretty vanilla organization without a political point of view. Helps immigrants. That's what it does. Nonetheless, these anti. I'm not going to call them pro Palestinian. They're not pro Palestinian like I like. I'm sorry. And even calling them anti Israel understates what they are. These are like pro Hamas, pro terror voices who organized around the synagogue right in front of the entrance. And these people walking in, middle aged elderly people, they cursed at them, they swore with them, they threatened them. It was horrific. Right up close to these people. And then the following day, after many people in public life had condemned what had happened, because it was, it was just indisputably vulgar and violative. Violative. The mayor's spokesperson called it out and yet somehow managed to suggest that there was some equivalence between the people who were protesting, the people walking into the synagogue for an event that the spokesperson erroneously claimed was somehow in violation of international law. This is a fiction. This is a lie. There's not a shred of truth to that. Again, you can have strong feelings about Israel's conduct toward Palestinians, the way that the war has been prosecuted about settlements in Judea and Samaria and so on and so forth, but the idea that Jewish people going to live in the Jewish state is a violation of international law. It is grotesque. But this is what's becoming normative. But this kind of language, it then gets pulled back, then she or the city hall or the transition retracted and clarified. Doesn't matter. It's already out there. This is part of the game. This is part of the double game that they play. And I really don't have any patience for the gaslighting of our community. You don't get to say that you're against anti Semitism and then make specious fictional claims about putting New York in, quote, unquote, compliance with international law. Not a thing. By suggesting somehow you're going to implement bbs. Not a thing. So I find that very problematic. Now, on the other hand, let's acknowledge 30% of American Jews voted for candidate Trump. And we've got to acknowledge that they have a point of view. And 30% of New York Jews apparently voted for Mayor Alek Mamdani. If not, they have a point of view and he is our mayor. And like that or not, we have to deal with that. So I think it's our job at ADL as an institution. We don't get to choose who the American people elect as president. We don't get to choose who New York City elects us its mayor. It's our job to find ways to work with those individuals where we can in service of needs of our community. That doesn't preclude us from calling them out when we must. That doesn't preclude us from kind of using all the means at our disposal trying to make sure that our community is kept safe. But if there are areas of common interest, if there are areas of opportunity for collaboration, we're going to try to pursue those in a principled manner in the spirit of we want this city as we want this country to be the best place possible for its Jewish citizens and, by the way, for all people, irrespective of how you pray or where you're from or any other degree of diversity. So it's not easy, ami. But we've got to walk this line between calling out the egregious and ugly, you know, slander, even as we try to find ways to work together where we can.
- [39:29]
A
Jonathan, you, you, within days, I think.
- [39:33]
C
You.
- [39:35]
A
Announced, I think you called it the Mamdani monitor.
- [39:40]
C
Yes.
- [39:40]
A
Right.
- [39:41]
C
And.
- [39:45]
A
Can you explain this? Some people were critical of that. I don't know if they were critical because it was right after the elections and maybe there's a grace period there that that might have been appropriate or they were critical of the idea. I heard that some people, you know, so why are we opening a Mamdani monitor and not the far right monitor or Trump monitor or so on and so forth? So here's an opportunity to explain all of that.
- [40:09]
C
Again, the ADL doesn't. We don't play politics. We don't pick favorites, nor do we elect individuals. Like it's our job to call balls and strikes. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, with respect to candidate Trump and then President Trump, he may have been critical during the campaign and critical when he's in office. We also find ways to work together. That's what we have to do. But we have never held back in criticizing. And so, for example, in the last whatever, it's been nine months since President Trump was inaugurated, we've, I mean, look from Matt Gates to Joe Kent to Paul and Gracia to others who have been nominated and those nominations either withdrawn or proceeded when they when he has had people up for roles that we found problematic, we've called it out. When he's pursued policies that we've agreed with, we've celebrated and we pursue policy we disagreed with, we've called that out like, this is what we do. So we are tracking Trump every single day. With respect to candidate Mamdani, what makes him a little bit different than candidate Trump was. Candidate Trump came in kind of as a, you know, it was unclear what his core values were. Mamdani's been very clear. And he kind of, like I said, casually talks about being an anti Zionist. That is an anti Semitic position, period. Anti Zionism is not, again, dignity and equality for all people. Anti Zionism is denial of rights for Jewish people. It's what it is unless you hold that view consistently for all people. If the only group that you single out and to whom you would deny self determination is Jews.
- [41:52]
It'S called anti Semitic, anti Jewish, and it's wrong. And so he came to this role with that in mind. Over the last few months of the campaign, we saw him intensify, saying things like he would cut ties with the techn again. Cornell Tech is a center of innovation in this city. They do breakthrough research, they do extraordinary innovation. And his basis to cut ties was not the quality of their output or the success of their scholarship simply because it was a Jewish institution. That's it. That's it. Or insisting he would bring BDS to City Hall, a discriminatory practice that would discriminate against Jewish people and Israeli people, that is against the law to discriminate against people based on their ethnicity or nationality, and so on and so forth. So as his language intensified and he came in as a person with a clear ideology, and by the way, he's shown he's pragmatic on other issues, like affordability. Issues he's shown can be pragmatic. But we worried a great deal because on this he's basically shown no flexibility and shown no willingness to learn. When you can't call out globalize the intifada, when you are unable to reckon with some of the most basic stuff, that's a little bit of a tell. So indeed, the day after the election, we announced the Mamdani Monitor. And our intent is to do two things. It's to, number one, allow New Yorkers who experience anti Semitism to tell us now, by the way, Americans across the country, Jewish people, when they experience anti Semitism, they tell us they've been doing that AMI for almost 50 years. We've been collecting reports for almost 50 years and systematically tracking it. All we're doing here is narrowing in a hyperlocal way in New York City. Why? Because we're worried that a new mayor, again, who espouses anti Zionism creates a permission structure for people to engage in anti Semitism. So we want to make sure New Yorkers, Jewish New Yorkers know, report your incidents to us. Because we are worried in the city with the most Jews of any in the world, in the city, in America where the most anti Semitism happens, it could go up like that. We're going to make sure people know to report. And then secondly, we're going to track the personnel and the appointments that the mayor makes, the policies that he introduces and the programs that he rolls out. By the way, we do that, right, Michael, with respect to other elected officials, the only thing different is we've kind of labeled it as this Mamdani monitor to make sure that the mayor and his aides and the city knows that we're going to have a hot, bright white light on this from day one. So this does not mean that we are biased against him. It simply means we feel it is necessary to pay ultra close attention to what might happen. Why? Because of what he has already said. And why? Because of what he's already done. So look at the end of the day as everything we do ami, this will be data driven, it will be fact focused, it will be grounded in evidence. So if he appoints good people to different positions, that's what's going to show up in the monitor. If incidents don't go up, that's going to show up in the monitor. If he introduces good policy, that's what's going to show up in the monitor. On the other hand, if he does things that are controversial or he opposes people with a track record of anti Semitism, or he suggests policies that again would discriminate against or marginalize Jewish people, that's what's going to show up. So it's interesting that there's been so much noise around this. As far as I'm concerned, we're just doing our job. Now, some people think we personalized it to him, but again, he, he is the mayor and he's espousing an ideology that creates a permission structure. We're concerned about it. If we're wrong, then that will be exposed. If we've missed the mark, then that's going to be exposed. But it's odd that people are concerned that we are going to report what happens. As far as I'm concerned, that means we're doing our job.
- [46:06]
A
Would you advise New York Jews and through New York Jews, American Jews, but in particular here in the city, would your advice to them in terms of protecting themselves from acts of Jew hatred be different today? Or when Mamdani is sworn in on January first than, say, three months ago or six months ago.
- [46:31]
Do you have advice? I have people all the time who come in here and express worries for themselves, their kids. Do you have any different kind of advice than you would have given a while ago?
- [46:41]
C
I mean, I think, number one, one of the. In an October 8th world, we are reminded that we must be wary. We just can't take any of this for granted. That none of this was ordained by, you know, Hashem, as if it would be here forever. Right. The fact of the matter is the first temple and the second temple fell. And this temple of, if you will, this modern temple could fall as well. We don't get our act together, do everything we can to preserve it.
- [47:11]
A
This modern temple being the exceptionalism of the United States in terms of all of its citizens and in particular the Jewish community.
- [47:20]
C
Correct. So I don't mean a physical structure. I mean this. This kind of. This remarkable construct that has been. That is developed and taken shape and like been bolted in over the last 200, almost 50 years. We see how we can wobble and we see how it can fall if we don't hold it up. There's a broader conversation about democracy, but I'm specifically speaking here in a very Jewish context about the sanctity of our place in this society.
- [47:51]
So I think, number one, I think one of the lessons is we must be wary. I think, number two, I think we've got to be engaged. I said it before, I'll say it again. Turns out that democracy is a contact sport. And none of us, I think, can afford to watch it on the sidelines. Just assume it's going to work out. You got to roll up your sleeves and get into it. Whether that means volunteering or donating or voting or blogging or.
- [48:19]
Change in careers or getting involved in some other way. I mean, there's an infinite number of possibilities, but you got to be in it. Like, we can't afford to be spectators in our own story.
- [48:33]
A
But your advice doesn't include to change your behavior on the streets or as you approach Jewish institutions or anything like that. You're not well.
- [48:43]
C
Look, we already have learned that we need to. And part of being wary is not in some abstract way, but in an immediate way. Be wary of your surroundings, be wary of your spaces, be wary whether you're on the subway or walking down the street. And that carries forward. We can't afford not to be in a world where anti Semitic incidents have reached epic epidemic levels. But by the way, those are our subways. Those are our Streets. These are our spaces. So I am not willing to surrender, not a millimeter to the bigots and to the bullies and to the anti Zionists, however they choose to sort of identify. So, yeah, we got to be wary and yeah, we got to be in it. But I say absolutely no to, to surrendering or to submitting that somehow we should like. Okay, so you should wear your keeper out. You might want to wear a baseball cap over your keeper if you want to be smart. But if you wear your keeper, you should wear it proudly.
- [49:43]
That's what I believe. I really believe that, like, you see this blue square? I know when I wear this blue square. And by the way, I've taken off my yellow hostage pin because they shut down hostage family for him. Thank God, Baruch Hashem.
- [49:58]
And nearly all the hostages have come home. There's only two left. And again, I'm following the lead of the hostage for that being said, I know wearing the blue square, which is from Robert Kraft's A Blue Square Alliance. People see that and they either think I'm Jewish or I'm aligned with Jews. I wear this every day, if you will, loudly and proudly, because I will not again be intimidated by or modify my behavior in order to placate the bullies and the bigots. You can forget it. They can all jump in the lake. Now, again, you gotta be smart. Not saying you should be stupid about it and careless, but I think we can't afford to give in and to let them win.
- [50:43]
A
You mentioned the Jews who are anti Zionist. How. How big, in your view is that phenomenon? People voted for Mamdani. You could say 30%. That strikes me as high too, but what do I know?
- [50:55]
C
I don't know that that's true. I don't think we have good data, but I've heard estimates it's between 20 to 30%.
- [51:00]
A
Yeah, okay, 20% sounds more reasonable to me, but it could be 30%. It doesn't really matter. It's still a minority. And it's exactly the opposite of what a conventional Democrat in this city would have received, which is two thirds. But how big do you think this anti. This anti Zionist Jewish phenomenon is? After all, people vote for mayor for a whole host of reasons. I've had people in my congregations who identify as liberal Zionists, and they told me they voted for Imam Doni because of all the other factors about New York. So how big. How big do you think the anti Zionist Jewish population is? How big a problem do you think it is for us?
- [51:45]
C
So I think two Things can be true at the same time. So I think small population, big problem. So let's say it is 20ish percent or something like that. I've seen data that suggests that 90% of American Jews have an attachment, positive attachment to the State of Israel. One could say that makes them Zionist. I would say that people who observe, who identify as Jewish are all Zionist because Zion is central and a return to Eretz Israel is central to our, to our faith. Like it's so fundamental. It's why I don't need to tell you ami, of all people, we know that it's not just this political entity that started 70 some odd years ago. Like again, we have a covenantal commitment to that land that is present in all aspects of worship and ritual that characterize Judaism and the Jewish people. So that being said, let's say it's a small population. Again, maybe it's 10%, maybe it's 20%. So it's small, but it's a big problem because it is worrisome to me when you have a segment of your community who's so detached from our core values and who has imbibed the language of those who hate us. And again, I understand those who want to see.
- [53:01]
A more humane and dignified piece, a process that provides dignity and equality to Palestinians. I want that too. I want to see a process in the Middle east that allows Jewish, Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, however they choose to identify, to live side by side and in, if you will, places of their own.
- [53:24]
So that they are able to enjoy and realize their national aspirations without being in conflict with one another. That's what I want. I want a world where they can again exercise their full humanity with in safe secure spaces without again impinging upon, let alone attacking the other side. The anti Zionist doesn't believe that. And I think many Jewish people who want dignity for Palestinians don't realize they're repeating the rhetoric of the enemy when they say ridiculous things like Israel's an ethno national project, like it couldn't be farther from the truth. So when I say it's a big problem, I think we need to own and we need to be accountable, that we have to do a better job, we as Jewish leaders to make sure that our institutions and the systems that support them and the values, the invisible scaffolding that holds up those systems and those institutions fully encompasses the complexity of the times we're living in. I worry sometimes when we flatten things, it oversimplifies. And again, I appreciate that our tradition that our Faith, what teaches us to love thy neighbor. It requires us to find the dignity again in those Palestinians, even those who say and do horrible things. They still are mothers and fathers, they are still sons and daughters. So we've got to find that again. The anti Zionist though, who flattens the Israeli Jews and who negates what it means to be Jewish is doing themselves a tremendous disservice. So I think we need to ask ourselves how can we as a Jewish people again in leadership roles, reflect upon and kind of discover new ways to connect with a younger generation who feel so detached from their, from the, the Zionist identity and from the heritage which has held our people together for 2000 years of exile. I think we've got a lot of work to do do.
- [55:32]
A
And my last question to you Jonathan, is we're going into the 250th celebration here in the United States. You think the country has changed in fundamental ways in the last two or three decades. And are you optimistic about the future of the country?
- [55:47]
C
I mean, I don't know that there's another country in the history of humanity with the corrective capacity that this one has. This country has endured and we're not like a civilization like ancient Rome or ancient Persia or ancient such and such. This is a democratic republic, a representative democracy that's shown a constitutional capability of correcting for its, its inherent flaws, that's shown a corrective capability to overcome, you know, economic depression, social upheaval, civil war. We forget the fact that the bloodiest conflict in the history of this republic was when Americans fought Americans and families were torn apart, shooting each other in the street and in the fields.
- [56:40]
Global catastrophe. So much, we have come through so much and there is so much promise ahead of us. I mean there's this whole emerging idea on the left of abundance which has been here for a long time. But you look at the promise of technologies like generative AI and the promise of technologies like, you know, bio innovation and the promise of technologies like that are controlling for and adjusting for climate. And you look at the developments in science and medicine that have contributed to such advancements in like again, human health and broad prosperity. So the country has changed a lot in the last 30 years. 30 years ago was November 1995. My God. Post Oslo, you know, in the middle of Bill Clinton's term, we had a balanced budget. Globalization. Globalization was upon us in a positive way.
- [57:40]
We are at the earliest dawn of the Internet, like there was a lot of to be hopeful then, but again now we're at the early dawn of AI now globalization is already upon us again. Now we've achieved so much progress. Like, I have no doubt, if any country can get through this time, it's this one. And if any people can contribute to that renaissance, it's Jewish Americans. So I am hopeful and I see tremendous horizons ahead of us. But again, we got to get on the field. We got to. Each of us has a role to play. We got to find our role. We got to lean in like never before. You want the next 250 years to be as fruitful and as productive as. As the previous 250.
- [58:26]
A
Jonathan Greenblatt, one of the great leaders of the American Jewish community at the very heart of the crisis of our times. Thank you for spending this time with us. And thank you for all that you do and all that you will do in protection of American society as well as the American Jewish community.
- [58:44]
C
Thank you for your kind of intellect, your wisdom, like I said, your courage, which uplifts all of us on me and I think all of us, your congregants and the community is grateful for that. So thank you.
- [59:02]
B
I have known and admired Jonathan Green since he became the Chief executive officer of the anti Defamation League 12 years ago. He is utterly devoted to the Jewish community and to American society. Jonathan is tireless. He possesses enormous energy and works round the clock on our behalf. The American Jewish community owes him our gratitude. I want to pick up on two points he raised. First, it's been my experience as well that it is much harder now to lead a broad based Jewish organization than when Jonathan was first appointed. It was never easy to lead a community of Jews. Even Moses had many setbacks. Who made you judge and ruler over us? Is a question he heard several times. But today, in contrast to even a decade ago, the Jewish community is much more polarized, as is American society. And the stakes for us are much higher. Anti Semitism has exploded and Jews are more fearful and more anxious than at any time since before World War II. During these historic years, it is critical for our community to have the best and the brightest representing us. Jonathan is one of those leaders.
- [60:26]
Second, regarding our discussion about the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism, in the context of the election of New York City Mayor Alek Mamdani, the safety of American Jews is dependent not only on the number of security personnel guarding Jewish buildings. It is first and foremost connected to the general environment. An atmosphere of tolerance, coexistence and camaraderie. You could put 50 police officers outside a New York City synagogue or a Jewish school. If the overall atmosphere is hostile to Jews, it will threaten Jewish safety everywhere. And history has proven that what starts with the Jews never ends with the Jews. The city itself will become much nastier, much more violent. And that is the main threat from the ideologically driven anti Zionism of Zoran Mamdani spreading in both American political parties. The history of the Zionist movement since the late 19th century establishes that wherever anti Zionism is normalized, especially by high government officials, hostility to Jews increases. We've seen that in the past two years in the ivory towers of elite academic institutions and on the streets of New York City and across the United States.
- [61:55]
And it's not only Jonathan Greenblatt who insists that anti Zionism is often anti Semitism. Martin Luther King said, when people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti Semitism.
- [62:10]
The vast majority of American Jews support Israel and consider her a central component of their own Jewish identity. The effort to delegitimize Zionism is an effort to delegitimize Judaism. It is an effort by non Jews to define Judaism, for Jews to separate what they call good Judaism and bad Judaism, Good Jews and bad Jews. Or as Congresswoman Omar said, pro genocide and anti genocide Jews.
- [62:43]
We cannot let them do that. They would not be so bold with any other minority group.
- [62:51]
Jews get to define Judaism. Others get to decide whether they accept us as we see ourselves.
- [63:00]
This ideological anti Zionism is not a critique of Israeli policy, not a debate about borders, but opposition to the very idea of a Jewish state and a commitment to see it dismantled along with its 10 million people, seven and a half million of whom are Jewish. We need to strip anti Zionism of its venera virtue and remind Americans that anti Zionism is intolerant and illiberal, a betrayal of the American way of life.
- [63:34]
We will get through these times together.
- [63:38]
Challenging times often bring out the best in people. We should work hard to instill a deep, passionate Jewish identity in our children. If we do, they and we will be fine. And we must form alliances with our non Jewish friends. Jews are still a small minority. We cannot succeed alone. There are tens of millions who stand with us. We need them now more than ever. Until next time.
- [64:10]
A
This is in these times.