EP 86: Being Kept By Perfect Love

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: In Totality with Megan Ashley
Episode: EP 86: Being Kept By Perfect Love
Host: Megan Ashley
Guest: Lisa Brunson
Date: September 2, 2025

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Overview:

This deeply personal and faith-centered episode brings together host Megan Ashley and her longtime mentor and friend, worship leader Lisa Brunson. The two women explore the sustaining power of God's perfect love amid anxiety, disappointment, and church hurt. Backed by scripture, candid storytelling, and vulnerability, their conversation touches on generational faith, overcoming isolation and shame, authentic service in the church, mothering with grace, and how brokenness can draw us closer to experiencing God's keeping power. Special attention is given to Lisa's testimony of battling anxiety and how this birthed her song "Perfect Love" and the viral “even when I don't see it...” bridge to “Waymaker.”

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions & Relationship Background

[03:16 – 08:59]

• Megan introduces Lisa as someone who's known her “probably half of my life” – as a “big sister,” mentor, and her favorite worship leader.
• Lisa responds emotionally, expressing her pride and love for Megan, highlighting the multi-season depth of their relationship.
• They reminisce about their shared church history, transitioning from teens to wives and mothers together.

Quote:
“I am literally so beyond proud of you... watching you navigate so many seasons of life...to see what God has done in you and because you allowed him to do it...”
– Lisa, [04:04]

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2. Lisa’s Story & Calling

[07:25 – 09:00]

• Lisa shares about her family (married 16 years, two daughters), passions (worship, family, kingdom), and early calling to serve and teach young believers.
• Emphasizes importance of living kingdom-minded, belonging to community, and serving the local church.

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3. Discipleship, Zeal, and Heart Health in the Church

[09:00 – 16:43]

• Megan recounts Lisa’s pivotal role in her spiritual formation, especially in helping her understand that serving God flows from being loved by Him—not trying to earn it.
• Lisa describes her role as cultivating both “zeal and knowledge” in young Christians, stressing that what sustains faith in life’s real trials is knowing and applying scripture.
• They discuss the dangers of serving from selfish ambition or insecurity, and the temptation to “earn” God’s love.

Quote:
“My heart was to apply knowledge and to teach knowledge to go along with the zeal... what does living for the Lord really mean, day in and day out?”
– Lisa, [12:41]

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4. Kingdom vs. Church Mentality; Community & Vulnerability

[16:44 – 28:36]

• Lisa demarcates the difference between local church focus and a kingdom mindset—being Christ’s ambassadors in every life sphere.
• Their dialogue examines the trends of “aesthetic” Christianity vs. authentic transformation, and the necessity of being more than just “hearers of the word.”
• They discuss why community, discipleship, accountability, and healing from church hurt are vital to faith maturity, with grace and forgiveness as central themes.

Quote:
“Jesus was hurt by the church too... and he still gave his life for it.”
– Lisa, [26:30]

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5. Parenting & Discipling Children in Faith

[28:36 – 34:32]

• Lisa outlines practical discipleship as a parent: loving her kids unconditionally, applying grace before discipline, and placing honesty and openness over shame.
• Emphasizes the importance of not letting ministry overshadow the primacy of family, and modeling authentic faith at home.

Quote:
“Our natural tendency when we do something wrong is we want to hide...in the daily practices in our home, we're trying to teach them just come to us honestly.”
– Lisa, [30:29]

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6. Serving vs. Abiding: Becoming Mary Instead of Martha

[34:36 – 41:39]

• Megan opens up about the difficulty of abiding in God’s presence (being Mary), instead of defaulting to busyness and serving (Martha).
• Lisa teaches about the spiritual discipline of rest and Sabbath, and how busyness can numb us to intimacy with God.

Quote:
“Busyness distracts us from the things that really matter... It's never been about performing. It's never been about perfection.”
– Lisa, [38:18/40:11]

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7. Testimony: Lisa’s Journey through Anxiety & Healing

[44:55 – 57:42]

• Lisa vulnerably details her battle with debilitating anxiety and panic attacks post-childbirth, when mental illness was stigmatized and undiscussed, especially in ministry.
• Finding God in her extreme weakness forced her to relearn God’s heart: that He cares about more than her “public” successes—He cares about her internal battles.
• The experience inspired the song “Perfect Love” and a new understanding that God’s love—received, not earned—casts out fear.

Quote:
“It was six or seven years of like really, living this...there was this side of me that everyone knew, and then there was the other side...my husband had to deal with...But God kept me.”
– Lisa, [49:37/57:42]

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8. Practical Faith: Mindfulness, Therapy, & “Kept by God”

[60:06 – 64:39]

• Lisa affirms that healing doesn’t erase temptation or difficulty; practical steps (limiting news, grounding, repeating scripture, therapy) are acts of stewardship of her mind and soul.
• Psalmic honesty—casting her cares onto God, visualizing handing Him her fears—combines with inner discipline to keep her “kept.”
• The necessity of integrating spiritual and practical helps is a recurring theme.

Quote:
“We've made the Bible so spiritual that we miss the practicality in all of it.”
– Lisa, [63:54]

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9. Perfect Love & Weakness: The Gospel in Brokenness

[64:52 – 71:37]

• Megan shares how Lisa’s song “Perfect Love” ministered to her in her own battle with depression and self-harm, especially the line “You are for me.”
• They reflect on how suffering, acknowledged weakness, and vulnerability are transformative—allowing God's power to be perfected.

Quote:
“He didn’t die to make us perfect. He died to make us holy.”
– Lisa, [68:30]

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10. The Story Behind the Viral Bridge of “Waymaker”

[75:18 – 83:12]

• Lisa reveals the origin of the bridge—“Even when I don’t see it, you’re working...” She created it as a prophetic declaration while her husband was losing his sight despite fervent faith and prayer.
• The story illustrates faith’s tension: trusting God’s character when earthly outcomes aren’t as hoped.

Quote:
“The part she's talking about...even when I don't feel it, you're working...That lyric was about my husband. Like, he literally...doesn’t see out of that eye...”
– Lisa, [76:30/82:04]

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11. Testimony, Suffering, and the Lord’s Timing

[83:40 – 85:41]

• Lisa stresses the wisdom in knowing when to testify; sometimes, years pass before a story becomes ready to publicly share.
• Both Megan and Lisa encourage listeners to share their testimony in community, not just on public platforms.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “God, make me sensitive to the needs of your people...I gave you what you asked for, but when I give, I give in abundance. Now you have to learn how to manage what you asked for.” – Lisa, [18:55]
• “I’m going to exchange my weakness, my brokenness, my fragility...for your perfected strength.” – Megan, [70:42]
• “Some difficulties I think we bring on ourselves, and then some difficulties I think God brings...he uses all of it to make us more like Jesus.” – Lisa, [69:48]
• “God is still working. All the time.” – Lisa, [85:50]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:16] – Warm, emotional introduction; Lisa’s “proud big sister” blessing
• [14:44] – Tim Keller’s Prodigal Son insight: repenting not only of sin but of motives for goodness
• [19:00] – “Create in me a clean heart” as life prayer; managing sensitivity not suppressing it
• [26:30] – “Jesus was hurt by the church, too—and he still gave his life for it.”
• [30:25] – “If you tell the truth, you’ll never get in trouble”; parenting for grace, not guilt
• [34:36] – The Mary/Martha tension; learning to sit before serving
• [46:28] – Lisa’s transparent account of her first post-partum panic attack and subsequent years
• [53:13] – Anxiety reveals a root: “I didn’t really believe God had good for me”
• [55:29] – Isaiah 53:7 and the cross: “the stripes that he took were for my peace”
• [75:18] – The story behind the “Waymaker” bridge and its connection to deep personal suffering
• [87:37] – Journal prompt: “Today I’m going to trust God with ___.”

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Journal Prompt

“Today I’m going to trust God with _____.”
– Lisa Brunson, [87:37]

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Tone & Takeaway

With unvarnished honesty and warm encouragement, Megan and Lisa model authentic Christian friendship and faith formation. The episode affirms that God’s love is not a reward for our spiritual performance, but a transforming power that keeps, heals, and restores, especially in weakness. Whatever your struggle—anxiety, disappointment, church hurt, or weary service—the call is to bring your whole heart to God, trusting that His perfect love truly casts out fear.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary gives a clear map of the vulnerable stories, spiritual insights, and practical faith tools discussed, complete with notable moments and quotes to revisit or reflect upon further.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Participation may vary.

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[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

What's up fam? Listen, if you've been blessed by In Totality the podcast, then I want to personally invite you to go deeper by joining our Patreon community called the Village every Tuesday morning. The Village access to the full episode of the podcast two days before it drops publicly on YouTube. So while everyone else is waiting, you're already soaking it in. But that's just the beginning. As a Village member, you get exclusive access to the In Totality docu series. It's a behind the scenes look at how I walk on my faith in real life. No filters, no fluff, just real moments of me trusting the Lord, processing life and growing in truth. We also do live book clubs, club Zoom calls where we read and grow.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Together in the Word.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I'm not just talking at you worth walking through it together, asking questions, wrestling through scriptures, learning to follow Christ more fully. You know, like that Romans 12. You'll also get bonus content, extra conversations with podcast guests that go even deeper, plus moments that didn't make it to the episode but were just too good not to share. And one more thing. When you join the Village, you get first access to merch before drops public. So if you love the message and you want to rep the movement, you'll.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Get first dibs every time.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

But more than the content, the Village is about community. It's a safe place for believers to connect and grow and be reminded that you're not doing this walk alone. You're a part of something real. We're building something special and we would.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Love for you to be a part.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

So hit pause, go to www.patreon.com meganashley and join today and I'll meet.

[Lisa Brunson]

What do you do when? What you believing for and what's in the word when you don't see it happen, you know, But God kept me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I don't mean that in the religious way.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Now, listen, Lisa, I'm just as Pentecostal as you now.

[Lisa Brunson]

All right?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I know deeply the power of a keeping God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

This is the first time I've ever shared that testimony in a public setting. Wow.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I am so excited. I'm so excited for today's guest. You. She. This is her first time being on the In Totality. I pray it's not her last time. She has known me since I was a wild teenager. She's known me for pro. I mean, probably half of my life. She's seen me birth all of my children. She has seen me in so many phases. She is my favorite worship leader. And so In Totality fam. Please give a warm welcome to the Lisa Brunson.

[Lisa Brunson]

Hi. I'm so happy. I am. So let me just start by saying this, and I don't want to be teary eyed at the beginning, but I am literally so beyond proud of you. Not only have I known you for a long time, but I've loved you for a long time. You have. And watching you navigate so many seasons of life. Teenage years, 20s, and then cultivating a family and all these things it has been. And then to see what God has done in you and because you allowed him to do it, how he is using you today. It's literally like I'm just a proud big sister.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You are. You are a big sister. You know, you've been a big sister since I was 15. 16.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And you've always been just.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Protecting me, correcting me, loving me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Cheering you.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Cheering me on. Helping me be a woman in ways, A wife in ways.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Just all the things.

[Lisa Brunson]

All the things.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

All the things.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

So I'm excited.

[Lisa Brunson]

I'm excited, too.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How are you?

[Lisa Brunson]

I am great.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

So you guys don't know.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

We haven't seen each other and probably.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Five years since I moved to Atlanta.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

So backstory.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Lisa was a part of a church and was on staff and leading worship and we were at the same church and I was a wild teenager. All the things. We ended up working at the same time.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

We ended up having babies at the same time.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

My last two. Her first two. She has two daughters, Lisa or Lisa. Reagan and Raelyn.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Beautiful girls who are modeling as they should be because they're gorgeous. So she's known me forever and I was praying about just this season of In Totality, and I text you, and I was like. Cause you kept coming to my heart.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I was like, okay, that's just random. But, yeah, like, I would love to talk, and it just wouldn't go away. And I was. I was wrestling, like, maybe I'm just like, this is my head thinking, and, you know, and I. You kept coming to my heart, and I text you, and I was like, I think we should talk.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

On the pod. I was like, pray about it.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And you were like, okay, I'm praying about it.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, I definitely had to pray about it. This is my copy.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I know this is not. Lisa's, like, a huge introvert, but I just felt like you have. I know the ways that you have blessed me privately, and I know you're not an extrovert, and I know this is so out of your comfort zone, but I just felt so strongly that you could bless this audience. And you have such an amazing.

[Lisa Brunson]

Story.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But the way that you live your conviction is just top tier to me. It's always been top tier to me. But give everyone kind of just a backstory of your life. And I'm going to surprise you guys, because you actually don't know that you know her. You just didn't know you know her. And I'll tell you why you know her. But, yeah, tell us about you. Tell our fam about Lisa Brunson.

[Lisa Brunson]

Okay, so I'm in my 40s. She doesn't look like it, and I'm married to the best guy ever. We been married for 16 years.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Crazy.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I remember when you guys got married.

[Lisa Brunson]

I remember that, too.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's crazy.

[Lisa Brunson]

It is crazy.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

16 years.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

We dated for. He. He's the date guy. I am not, like, the years guy or the year's person, but we dated for a really long time. We've been married. We have two amazing girls. They're 12 and 10 and almost teenagers. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Are you ready?

[Lisa Brunson]

Not at all. Not remotely. I.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Are you sensing it?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like, are they, like.

[Lisa Brunson]

I sense it more with our younger ones than our older.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Okay. Yeah. We always knew. I think we knew Raelynn was gonna be a little bit more feisty then.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, she's definitely more feisty, but I'm the mom that's like, okay. So our oldest, Regan, is turning 13, so I'm like, oh, my gosh. I only have, like, six Christmases left with her. I only have six Fourth of July. I only have six Labor Days, Memorial Day. So I'm like, I'm that mom who, like, is. Tries to be in all the moments, and you're the best and take stock in all those things. And I sing, I write a little bit. A little bit. I lead worship. I think the things that I'm most passionate about are my family, our friends, and then the kingdom. And underneath the kingdom, the local church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So when we met, I was.

[Lisa Brunson]

16.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I was still in high school.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I was in a part of our youth group.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I just remember, I think it was one of the first youth conferences that we had did. And I was dancing being a part of it. But I remember, I. I mean, I looked at Lisa like, she was like, you know, she was the way that people look at celebrities in our world. That's how. I mean, I was like, it's Lisa. Like, she was just the coolest person ever.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Still is, but you were just the coolest person ever.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I remember we were rehearsing for the youth conference, and it was kind of like, you took me under your wing a little bit. Like, yeah, I'mma make sure you.

[Lisa Brunson]

You're taken care of. I've loved you for a long time.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

For a long, long time.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

And just like, you just.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yeah, you made. You just made sure that I wasn't, you know, just out here wild like the, like, other girls or whatever. Like, you kind of just took me under your wing. And then I. Then I decided to go to Bible college.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I just remember I was like, I don't know what I want to do with my life, but I was super passionate about the things of the Lord and, like, really wanted to figure out where my place was. And you had a praise and worship class.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

What was the class called?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It was a Fundamentals of Praise.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I. I don't sing.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

But I took the class because Lisa was. Lisa was the Easter teacher.

[Lisa Brunson]

I was not an easy teacher either. I was so hard.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I. And I.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

But I thought, because I was like.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I had become like a little sister to you. I thought you were gonna.

[Lisa Brunson]

No.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Go easy on me. And so, Lisa Jordan, you would love this story.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Because Lisa.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Lisa, you have to, like, you have to sing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

In her class and you have to do solos. Like, you remember how we used to go. What was that store that was in Pickerington? It was like the Christian store. And we would get the tracks that were just the instrumentals. Do you know what I mean? We would have to go get the instrumental tracks and we would have to like to perform these songs we have to sing. And I remember thinking, like, there ain't no way Lisa about to make me do that.

[Lisa Brunson]

I'm her.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I'm her favorite. Like, she's not about that.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

She was like, okay, like, go get this.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like, she was like, go do it. Like, I'm not.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, you're in the class. You gotta do the work.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I was like, what in the world?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And you made me. And you don't understand. I was in my dorm room that morning thinking of every excuse to cut this, like, to not go to that class that day, because I did not want to do it. And you made me do it.

[Lisa Brunson]

I did.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I was mortified, but I got through it and it was fine.

[Lisa Brunson]

And what grade did you get? I don't remember. You got an A.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Did I get an A?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. And you did great.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Okay, so I got an A. So there you go.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But what were you. Your. You know, I'm just curious about what your vantage point was in Bible college when it comes to young believers who were very zealous. Like, how did you see and cultivate and disciple those who were, like, extremely. Because I feel like we. We went to Bible college just super zealous. Like, we just want it to be submerged.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

In all the things and do all the things. But you were really good at, like, helping us navigate our hearts. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you talk to us like you. You know what I mean? Like, you were.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

What.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How. What was the importance of that for you in. In Bible college?

[Lisa Brunson]

So I. I really feel like part of, like, my calling in my life is to love the next. The next generations. And I have felt that even when I was, like, young and in my 20s, I was, like, pouring into, like, 10 and 12 year olds in our church, teaching them how to play drums. And. But in that season particularly, it was just to really, my heart was to apply knowledge and to teach knowledge to go along with the zeal. Like, okay, it's great to be excited, but, like, what am I excited about? Like, what does, like, living for the Lord really mean? Yeah, what does that look like day in and day out? Because I don't want you to, like, be in church and, like, it's a cool service and you're hype, and then, like, Tuesday comes along and you're like, I'm faced with this, and now I don't know what to do. I really firmly believe that the answer to every struggle or joy in life is found in the Bible. And so if we know the word of God and we apply the word of God, then We will be able to live fulfilled lives. And so that was really just my heart. Like, teach you to know your heart.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And to live right.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I feel like that was something that I could. I just always felt like you cared.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

About where we were.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And. And to be honest with you, Lise, there were. There were a lot of times where it didn't feel like that was the priority for a lot of people. It felt like serving was always the priority, but not the health of, like, our hearts and where we were and in the why behind why we're serving.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And so I'm interested in what you think about this because I was listening to this Tim Keller sermon about the prodigal son, and I've been like, on this prodigal son.

[Lisa Brunson]

Okay, parable.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I've been on it for a while now. And he talks about the older son and how the older son, how it was his goodness that kept him far from the Father. And he was saying, as a gospel believing Christian, that we don't just repent for our sins, but we repent for the why. Like the reason we did anything good.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And so I. When we were. When we were at the same church and serving in the same church and all the things. I just remember serving all the time, but not having the right heart posture in the serving. And now I'm. Now I'm understanding and having more of a biblical framework of like the why behind it matters.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You know what I'm saying?

[Lisa Brunson]

For sure.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I realized that I was serving so much, but doing it with selfish ambition. It wasn't purely for the glory of God, but it was for I. I needed affirmation. I wanted to be seen. I didn't feel like I was good at anything, but I knew I was good at serving. And so it felt like I could get people to love me if I served. And if I did, even, even I can get God to love me if I served. And so you've been serving the local church for how many years? Your whole life?

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, I mean, I played for the first time in like our main church. I played keys when I was 13 and became like the kind of the main keys player when I was 13. So I've been doing it over 30 years.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So you've been serving the local church for 30 years? How. So two questions. How do you keep the main thing. The main thing? Right.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And how do we cultivate hearts that aren't earning God's love through service, but we are serving from the, from the overflow of God's love.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So I love that you said that. How? Like, how do I keep the main thing. The main thing? Because I say that a lot.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you?

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, Especially like in. We have to understand that when we're serving, we're serving to serve others. And sometimes in our serving others, we can become hyper focused on things that don't really matter to the Lord. And so one of the prayers that I have prayed almost every day since I was a really young child comes out of Psalms and it's David's prayer after he. After his sin with Bathsheba was found out. And you heard me say this in my praise and worship class years ago. And it's this. Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a right spirit in me and cast me not away from your presence. Or like, don't take your holy spirit from me. And that's a prayer that I have prayed every day. Number one, I'm emotional. Like, I don't. I make no bones about it. It's something that used to bother me a lot. And one day I was griping to the Lord about being emotional. He was like, why, why are you, why are you praying to me about this? Because you. I gave you exactly what you asked for. And I was like, what do you mean, Lord, what did I ask for? And he was like, when you were 13 years old on. That was at the end of a youth service at 1125 Town street in Cincinnati, Ohio. I had come in the room and every young person in that room was wrecked. And he said, you laid on your. And prayed the prayer, God, make me sensitive to the needs of your people. Make me sensitive to your spirit. And he said, I gave you what you asked for, but when I give something, I give it in abundance. So you're not only sensitive to the needs of people and to me, you're just sensitive.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Now you have to learn how to manage what you asked for.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's good. That's good. So now it's asking the right question. Don't take it away, but help me manage.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, so help me manage. And so in all of the serving that I've done in the years, I have always said, God, make me sensitive. Let this not be something that's about me. Let it be about the kingdom. Not even the church. The kingdom, that's good.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

What's the difference?

[Lisa Brunson]

So the church is a local body of believers, which I strongly believe in. You know, I don't wanna. Let me not jump too far, but we're called to be disciples. Of Christ.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

We are called to model his behavior. And Christ lived in community. And in the church, he lived in community, eating right, reclining with people, living life in community. And then he served. The Bible says that he would go to the synagogue.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

He served in the local church. So me as a believer, right. As someone who is trying to be like Christ, I have to live in community and pour into community, and then I have to serve in the local church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

So I have always had that. So in keeping the main thing, the main thing, it is like, God, let me serve your church, but let me influence the kingdom as I'm serving your church.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

Right? So the local church is a local body of believers, and the kingdom is all of the local bodies of believers from around the world.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And it's. And it's living in a way, like you said, like I'm. I'm serving and I'm a part of community. I'm a part of a local church, but I'm also living to advance the kingdom. Which means that when I step outside of community, my church building, when I'm at Target or I'm down the street at wherever, I'm living in a way where I'm advancing the kingdom. And just like in the book of Acts, when you look at the, the, the. The first church, the first, the first Christians, when I was reading, because we did it, we did an Acts 2:42 conference. And, and I was studying Acts. I mean, I was studying what the church look really deeply, trying to understand how did the Christian faith advance in the way that it did. And it advanced in the way that it did because of the way that the people of community, of the local church live their lives outside the way that they lived. And that's what advanced the kingdom.

[Lisa Brunson]

We live so compartmentalized now. Like, my job is this thing I do, and I don't talk about church at my job, because church is the. This different compartment. And it's like we have a church mentality instead of kingdom mentality. And when we understand that Christ infiltrates every part of us, like he wants to be in every part of our lives, not just the thing we do on Sundays. Yeah, right. But every part.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

The good, the bad, the ugly, everything in between.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

Then we live from a kingdom perspective, which is, you know, I have the opportunity to share the love of Christ everywhere.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How do you, how do you encourage.

[Lisa Brunson]

People?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because I feel like we're seeing. Well, I feel like we're seeing two extremes, right?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

We see the Lord is being so kind to drawing people. I think we're seeing this in ways that I don't think I've ever seen. The way that he's drawing people to his self.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Through social media, podcasting, all types of mediums. Right. And so you have people who are being a part of local church. And I'm. And hear me, because I'm not saying that everyone has ill intent or ill motives, but it also is. Feels like a trend.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You know, everyone's doing get ready with me as I go to church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But I. But then, but then I know nothing about what you learned about when you went to church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But I know the outfit you wore. Yeah, I. I know, I know maybe some of the songs that we're saying, but I don't really know anything that, that you. And then you have another group that feels like they can just have a relationship with the Lord independent of being a part of a local church. What would you say to those who maybe feel to really both people who are doing it more for an aesthetic, but not really getting plugged in, not really submitting themselves to authority, not really being discipled, not really being shepherded, not really being held accountable. Right. And. And then for those who feel like, well, I don't.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I just have to have a relationship.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

With the Lord, I don't need to be a part of a local church.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, that's such a. Oh, gosh, that's such a great question. So I think the first part of it would say, you know, I love that you're going to church and that you're doing all that, but there comes a point in time where have to stop being a hearer of the word and then be a doer of the word.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

We all know, like, the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and. And then to love your neighbor.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

So you can say that.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

But don't just be a hearer and be able to regurgitate it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

Do it. Go love your neighbor. And I would challenge that. So many of us are so self absorbed that we don't even know the people's names that live on either side of us.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That part.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I mean, and your neighbor, I understand it can be relative, but literally, I mean, how can you. How can God, like, so radically transform your life and you want to keep it to yourself?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So there's that side of it. So don't just be a hearer, be a doer.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I love that.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, let the word of God. And let what you hear at the church impact your. Your daily life.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And then the other part of it is maybe to the believer that's like, maybe you've been hurt by the church or. Well, let me. Let me fix that, because I don't believe the church can hurt you. I believe people can hurt you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And people are people.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

There have probably been times in our life that I've hurt you and I've heard you've hurt me for sure.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

But the love of God covers a multitude. Covers that. I mean, we literally were just talking earlier.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

It says love each other deeply because love covers a multitude of sin. That's good.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

So don't be so standoffish. Learn to forgive. Learn to not. I wouldn't even say move past it. I would say move through it, because a lot of times when you move past it, you don't deal with it, but, like, move through it. And know this, that you find strength in church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And. And you have to deal with the things that make you not want to be in church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

Deal with the. The. The feeling that that's.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That happened to you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

That somebody hurt you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and I would say this. Jesus was hurt by the church, too. Hello. And he still gave his life for it.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Hello. And he was perfect.

[Lisa Brunson]

And he was perfect. The son of God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, so. So don't think and hear my heart in this, because my heart is. Is not to sound harsh, but don't think your hurt is so. I don't know.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's. It's like you're not.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like you're the only one ever was hurt by it. You're not.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, that's the lie of the enemy. And the other lie of the enemy is this that you have. You're meant to live life alone.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, you're not. You're meant to live it in community, and you're meant to live it in. In church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I think that's. I was talking about this. So with one of my friends is like, you know, one of the first tricks of the enemy is to immerse you in shame.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And then to isolate you. And I feel like, like, as a body, we need to do a better job at discipling people out of shame and out of isolation.

[Lisa Brunson]

But, you know, so much of that is taught from our childhood.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

I told you, like, one of my main things is being a mom. And I was raised. My parents didn't say this, but I'VE I've heard it say, like, a child would do something wrong and the parent would look at them, point their finger and be like, shame on you. No, actually, God Christ came to take shame off of you, you know, so, like, that's something that I think society in, has inbred in us from early, early ages. Like, every time we do something wrong, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and instead of just saying, like, I'm sorry, and then that apology being met with grace, it has been met with condemnation.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

From authority figures in our lives. Right. And that's not the way that God designed it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love that. I love that you said that we need to be met with grace.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I was. I've been learning so much. And I tell people all the time, like, I went through the hardest years of my life recently, but it's made me a better mom in ways. I feel like I've learned what it means to, like, just disciple my children. And so I'm interested in what, because I've been able to meet your parents a few times and the lovely, sweetest people, and they raised you guys in the church. And I'm interested to see or to hear from you what discipleship looks like as a mom to two girls being raised in this context of this culture and all the crazy things that we are experiencing now. But what does that look like to disciple your children?

[Lisa Brunson]

Man, that's such a loaded question. Because I think there's so many aspects to that. I think one of the biggest things in discipling is for you to love them unconditionally. And I have made it a habit, and my husband does as well. Like when our kids mess up that they're not met with being disciplined or yelled at, you know, they're met with grace. So if they break a plate, it's not, why did you do that? You should have been more careful. It's, hey, baby, accidents happen now. Let's work together to clean it up. And then we take everyday instances like that and really try to apply the word of God.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love that.

[Lisa Brunson]

To that. My husband says something to our kids all the time. And it's this. If you tell the truth, no matter what it is, you will never get in trouble.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Wow.

[Lisa Brunson]

But if you lie, you will be punished.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Wow, that's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

And because our natural tendency is when we do something wrong, we wanna hide.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's Genesis from the beginning.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so in the daily practices in our home, we're trying to teach them, just come to us Honestly. You know, and then we relate that to the lor. Like you come before the Lord, Honestly. And, you know, and we do Bible verses and we do, you know, reading the Bible with them and praying with them and just showing them how to love each other.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

That's big.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Teaching siblings how to love.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Oh, my gosh, Lisa. I feel like I'm saying this every day to Jonah and Eli. I'm like, you have to love each other. You have to.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Because, you know, kids fight.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I don't know if your girls like. I'm sure they probably. But the boy, they just fight all the time. And I'm always impressing, like, you have to love each other not just because it's getting on my nerves.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But biblically.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

The Lord isn't pleased when we're hurting our, our siblings.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And then like dealing with the root of it, like, okay, why are you fighting right now? Why are you so frustrated? You know, and then being able to calm down and find out what the real thing is.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

What the root of it is.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

What the root of it is. And, you know, there are for sure absolutes in our home, you know, but we, we want to raise them. My parents did an amazing job in raising kids that loved the Lord, loved his people, and loved the local church.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

I mean, my parents were in, not full time ministry, but my dad had his own company, but they served like they were in full lifetime ministry ever since, since before we were born.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so that's something that my husband and I feel very strongly about passing along to our girls. And Even now at 10 and 12, they're serving. I love that in the church.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love that.

[Lisa Brunson]

And it's not a source of identity for them, but it is a source of sharing the love of God.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love that to them. And I think that there's a balance in doing that because we all know.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Being a church kids, for sure.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Because the need is always there.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's hard. And most of them, what happens is. And I've. I've tried to be mindful of this even in myself, now that I'm full time in ministry, I've tried to be mindful to live in a way where my kids don't resent it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

For sure.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

They don't resent ministry, they don't resent church, and they don't resent God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because I, I saw it. I mean, you know, I saw it. I saw it. I saw people hate God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because parents had a hard time managing what was Important and priorities and do you know what I'm saying? Where they made the ministry, the main priority and not the priority was the family. And you know, that being your first ministry.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yes, but, and, and I think like, now that we're older and have kids of our own, like, I think looking back on that, that's the fault of the parent. That's actually not the fault of the ministry.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Correct.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yes.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, yes, it was the parents inability to prioritize.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

And to set boundaries that were healthy and say, hey, like, and then to, to really live it at home, not just in front of people.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Hello.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, not just on a platform, but like, I'm living this at home.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, I. We tell our girls, like, our home church has three services on Sunday and they want to go to all three. But our rule is this. You can go down the kids ministry one, then you can serve one, and then you have to sit in big church for one. I love that, you know, because we want you to understand, like, yes, yes, I, I should serve, but yes, I should also be fed.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yes.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

So I was.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Oh, I'm so happy that you said that. The Lord is good. Because I was reading just speaking of ministry. Yeah, I was reading because this is something I'm struggling with right now. I was reading in Luke. Is it Luke 10? Yeah, it's Luke 10 at the end of Luke 10. So I'm just going to read this and then I would love to kind of hear your thoughts on this and I want to share kind of where my heart is. But this is Luke 10 starting at verse 38. While they were traveling, he entered a village and a woman named Martha welcomes him to into her home. She had a sister named Mary who.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Also sat at the Lord's feet and.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Was listening to what he said. But Martha was distracted by her many tasks and came up and asked, lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to serve alone? So tell her to give me a hand. The Lord answered her. Martha, Martha, you are worri and upset about many things, but one thing is necessary. Mary has made the right choice and it will not be taken away from her. And so I was reading this this morning because I have been struggling and I feel like it's always been a struggle. But now that I'm in ministry again.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I'm finding that it's coming up again. That and I was asked this question last night. I did my friend's podcast and she was like, what do you want to be better at what's one thing you want to be better at? And I was like, I want to be better at loving God and I want to be better at sitting at his feet. I do a really good job being Martha, and I do a horrible job at being Mary.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I don't know how to rest and abide because. And partially, too, because where we come from.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

We were just serving was just. And I love. And I'm not. I'm not even bitter of the fact of how much I served in that season of my life and how much we had to serve and all. I'm not. Because it taught me how to be a good sir. Like, I know how to serve well.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But I don't know how to sit well. I don't. I do a great job at being a servant and do. I don't do a great job of being a daughter. I don't know what that looks like. And so for people like me and I. And I think partially, too, it's hard when you don't have a father.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So you don't know how to be a daughter. I don't.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And so.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How do you cultivate just sitting, Just being present.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. And.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And. And I. Because I love that Jesus said she chose the better thing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I mean? I think we think serving is the better thing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And it's not.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But sitting and abiding is the better thing. And how do you cultivate that but still keep a priority in serving?

[Lisa Brunson]

I think it's such a discipline, you know, because especially in, like, today's world, we don't know how to sit.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Everything is just busy, busy. Go, go.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And like, we have everything at the touch of our hands.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so we don't ever want our minds to.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

To.

[Lisa Brunson]

It's almost like we want our mind to be numbed. And busyness distracts us.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

From the things that really matter.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so I think, you know the discipline of starting to take Sabbaths where. And Jesus did it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

There's only in the Ten Commandments.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

All of them were things not to do. Right. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. He reminded us about the Sabbath and said, remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. And a Sabbath is a day of rest.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

So what does that look like in my life? And how can I discipline myself to turn my phone off for a day?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and to sit with my word, to sit with my family, to go outside for a walk. And, like, this is funny. To say this on the podcast, but to go outside for a walk and not have a podcast in my ears.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

To look and experience creation.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And to see that God made all of this and he said it's good. And he made it for our pleasure.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, I was looking at the trees and back when I came in, and I was like, God, like, you made this for her family to enjoy.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

He created it with you in mind. And we get so busy, and some of it, I think, is because we have. We don't understand who we are Right. In the Lord and what his love really means. So because we don't know how to receive love. Love.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

We. We just bypass it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

And really, the gospel has never been about performing. It's never been about perfection.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Or striving.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I mean? Like, even, like the. The language of. I've even had to be mindful of the language of, like, I'm just trying.

[Lisa Brunson]

I'm trying.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I'm trying.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And God's like. Like, I'm not asking you to try. I'm actually asking you to relinquish the control.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I mean?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And for control freaks, that's a really hard thing to do.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's extremely hard to not have control over what your circumstances and.

[Lisa Brunson]

And.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

And, you know, God has.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Has been so kind that, you know, when. When. When I rededicated my life to the Lord and I was. I was right here on this porch and I was like, I'm gonna say yes for real.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

I'm gonna.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because that for years I had been so far from my heart, had been far from the Lord, but. And just hardened by life and circumstances and all the things. But I remember sensing so clearly where he was like, you're gonna have to give up. Up. You're going to have to give like you have come to the end of yourself.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You're going. Like, it's either all of me or this is going. Or you're going to destroy you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I mean? That control of just. I want. I want this to be this way, or I want this to be this way, or I want life to be a certain type of way, or I want things to turn out a certain type of way. And it was like everything was stripped from me. At one time.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like, all at once. And I remember feeling I had been having anxiety attacks and panic attacks for the last four years consistently. Like, every time I would go out of town, I would have an anxiety Attack.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I remember thinking of you because, again, ever since I was young, you were a superhero in my mind and still is. But I. When. When I got older and we were having kids around the same time and I was married, you became more of a friend and a big sister, like. But there was a. There was a friendship where you shared things with me. And I remember seeing. Because I'd always saw you very put together, very strong all the time. But then there was a time where it was hard. Like, things were harder for you. And I remember you experiencing some anxiety. Major and. But I don't even think I knew at that time how major it was, but I remember you sharing with me a time where you almost had, like, a really bad. Or you did have, like a really bad panic attack or anxiety attack or something. And I remember you expressing that to me. And when I was out here on this porch, I had that same, like. Like a really bad. Like, it felt like debilitating. Like, I was like, I. I feel like I'm going to, like, paralyzing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Type of anxiety. And a couple years before this, maybe two years. Yeah. A couple years before this, this happened on the porch, you had wrote a song called Perfect Love.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I remember when you wrote. I remember we were. You were in a different state. I was still in Ohio. You had moved to Kentucky at that time. But you wrote this song. And I remember you and Jesus FaceTiming me, and we were talking about your song and all the things. But I remember when I first heard it, I remember how I could feel, how real that was for you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And that song was like the. On repeat for me from that moment on that porch till still to this day. I mean, I play that song all the time. And it's. It's the lyric. I mean, I don't know. There are very few songs that. It's, like, piercing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like, it pierces your heart because it's so real, it's so vulnerable, but it's so biblical.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it doesn't just play to your emotions, but it's biblical.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And so I kind of want you to share your journey with discovering the fact that God cares about you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

In totality. Like, he cares about your feelings. He cares about how you think. He cares about your mental health and how that led you to writing this song that has literally, like, been just a saving grace for so many people.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So I'm going to share a little bit of my testimony and what God did for Me. And this could be like, a whole episode, I feel like, because when I have always. It's almost like I have been proud of the fact that I'm strong, you know.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

I.

[Lisa Brunson]

Left home after college and moved out on my own and had my own house, and I was proud of that fact, you know? And I said, like, you know, of course I want to be married, but I don't need a man to complete me, you know? And so I. I felt like I was strong, like I could do life by myself. And, you know, when Germane and I got married and then we had our first daughter, who's 12. Her name's Regan. And I remember coming home from the hospital with her, and I had never had any, like, not really any bouts with anxiety or anything like that. Maybe two times in my life previous, but it wasn't anything that I would acknowledge.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I remember she was three days old. Everyone, for the first time, had left the house.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And my husband was like, I'm going to run to Kroger. It's just up the street. And. And he was probably gone for maybe 20 minutes. And in that moment, I had what started. Seven years of, like, debilitating panic, anxiety, and actual breaks from reality.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So the story was like, I heard my neighbors. Everything was quiet in my house. And I was sitting downstairs on our couch, and I was holding Reagan, and I was looking at her being like, oh, my God, she is perfection. I can't believe I'm a mom. And I heard my neighbors next door pull in. And all of a sudden, it was like my actual mind left me. And I started watching a movie of my neighbor and his friend coming in and raping my little girl. And it became so real. Real to me in that moment that my husband walked in to find me. Thank you. To find me. Cleaning up blood that wasn't there. And he was like, what are you doing? And I was like, look, look. She's like, look at this blood. And he was like, there is no blood. Stop. And it was like, in that moment, I. I caught back and. And that began. That was the first break from reality I had. And then I would have them all the time, and then started coming, like, severe panic and anxiety attacks. And for me, it happened anytime I felt like I wasn't in control.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I remember. I remember. Because we would have to fly.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

When our schedules were changed.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And we would have to fly. I remember one time, Germain had to leave unexpectedly.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

He got scheduled to travel when he wasn't supposed to. And I Remember catching you in the hall, and you were like, not. You were just not yourself, and you were very panicky. And I just remember talking to you about that. And it was. A lot of the times was when Germaine had to travel.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Away from you for ministry stuff.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Or if he was five minutes late from a haircut, it would be like, I. I would watch this movie of him, like, getting in a car accident, being on the side of the road and dying. So it became, like, this huge fear of death. And then I would lay awake at night and, like, feel like I was dying because I was having panic attacks that were so severe that I felt like I was having a heart attack. So it was, like, coupled with breaks from reality and then panic attacks. And you have to Understand, this was 12 years ago when no one talked about it.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

It wasn't like it was today when everyone's, like, claiming anxiety low, like my anxiety, my panic attacks.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

No.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, nobody talked about it at all.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And especially people in ministry.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Correct.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and so it was six or seven years of, like, really, like, living this. I don't know. It was like, there was this side of me that everyone knew, and then there was the other side of me that my husband had to deal with.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Who, like, I literally don't know. He loves me. Like, I don't think anyone has ever loved a human being. The fact that, you know, he stayed through all of that and would speak.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

The Word over you.

[Lisa Brunson]

Over me. You know, But I think that in church we say, you know, scriptures like, beloved, I wish above all things that you would prosper and be in health. Hold on. Why do we stop at the prosperity? Why do we stop at the part where God wants to make us rich? Because the back half of that verse is, even as your soul prospers. Well, the soul is my mind, my will, and my emotions. So in all of that journey.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

I learned. Hold on. The Bible does talk about life, like, your mental capacity. It talks about your emotions.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

There's a lot of scripture, and up until that point when I had to walk it out and figure it out for myself, it was only, God wants you healed and God wants you wealthy.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and so then when I didn't care about being healed and wealthy, and then in the middle of a panic attack, when people would, you know, would just say, just speak the word of God, well, my mind can't even formulate a thought to say Isaiah 41:10, you know, fear not, for I am with you. Be not dismal. Like, I can't even think that far right now.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, I'm thinking I'm dying.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, but when I started finding verses like that, it changed for me. Like, God, you care about the things that everyone sees, but you care more about the things that no one sees.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How did. How did you navigate finding out that God cares about how you feel with no framework? Because, like you said, no one talked about. I never heard. I mean, and I've been to thousands of services.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I never heard anyone talk about, you know, what we.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I heard a lot.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

God didn't care about your feelings. God doesn't care about how you feel, but he does care about how you feel. So how did he lead you to scripture? Do you know what I'm saying?

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Like, at what point?

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Where is it? Like, did God say, lisa, look here, Lisa. Like, how did that work? Because I feel like there are so many people that don't have someone to. You know what I mean? Like, how can they.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, there was. I mean, there was no framework for it at that time that I knew of. So it was literally like me getting in the scripture and saying, God, I am really struggling. Like, and for me, anxiety and all of that for me really came from a lack of trust in God.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So it exposed something.

[Lisa Brunson]

It exposed something like that. I didn't really believe that God had good for me and that the things I experienced in life were. It was punishment for something that I had done or something that I didn't do. Wow. And so it was like this whole journey where I started seeing all these scriptures about your soul, which is your mind, your will and your emotions, you know? And it just opened up this whole new thinking about the Lord and what he has for me. Like, he cares about my mind.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

He cares that I have a sound mind. You know, One of my favorite scriptures is God has not given you the spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind. You know, like, when you feel like you're losing it. Scriptures like that, like, okay, God, you care about that, and you didn't give me this fear, so how do I.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Get rid of it? That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

And that's where the song came in.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

Because it says, there is a scripture that says, perfect love casts out fear. And I am, like, a very visual person. So when I see something like a scripture like that, I'm like, what does it look like to cast out fear? And then it translated into my mind. Like. Like, the love of God comes In so strongly that fear can't sit.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

In it anymore.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And, like, there's a scripture. I want to find the reference to it. It's in my phone.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

And.

[Lisa Brunson]

Sorry, I have to put my glasses on.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

No, you're good. I got contacts in. So I'm. I look like I. I got better vision than I actually have.

[Lisa Brunson]

It's Isaiah 53. Seven.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And it's this part. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. That became so much more to me in that time than a prophecy about Jesus. Like, I was grieving, I was scared, I was sorrowful. I felt like I was a shell of the person I used to be.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And it says, the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him. And by his stripes we were.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

The gospel man.

[Lisa Brunson]

So in all of the torment on the cross, Christ took that.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Right. And the stripes that he took were for my peace.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

Not just for my salvation. It was for me, so I could be whole, so I could be put together.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So that I would learn to really trust him when I didn't feel in control. Yeah.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and I would say to you today, you know, there's life on the other side of that. I mean, I don't have panic attacks anymore now. I had to do some natural things to combat that for sure. Caffeine, coffee, like, you know me, that was a huge thing. But, like, when I was getting help and yes, I got help.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

I went to a therapist.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

That's good, right?

[Lisa Brunson]

Anita Phillips was like a lifesaver to me during that time. And she said, you know, she was like, you had breaks from reality. She was like, when you were doing. Going through all that, like, you should have been institutionalized. And I was like, but for the grace of God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, had I been brave enough to say to anybody other than my husband what was really going on? I should have been for sure. You know? But God kept me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I don't mean that in the.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Religious way, know, like, he kept me. Now, listen, Lisa, I'm just as Pentecostal as you now. All right. But when I tell you I know deeply the power of a keeping God.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Now that hits differently for me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

On this side of my life.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Than hearing it growing up ever did.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like when I say he is a keeper.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

A keeper.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Because.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I was suffering in silence for years, battling anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, self harm. Doing it in secret, you know, I. I I commend Jordan all the time because it. If it wasn't for her, like, calling me out, why are you hurting yourself? She was the only one that noticed.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

The only one that noticed. And I'm around people a lot. A lot. I'm laying next to a man every night who didn't notice. And it was so obsessive. It was an obsession. Like, it became an obsession. Like, compulsive. Like, I couldn't help myself but to have thoughts of me not being here anymore. I would even, like, map out ways in my head of how I'm going to do this in a way that is going to be least impactful to my kids.

[Lisa Brunson]

Kids.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

How am I gonna. Like just planning in my head all the things. And when I said yes to the Lord on the porch, I had never had one suicidal thought since then. Now, I don't believe that that is everyone's story. Yeah. Or everyone's case.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I do believe that there are some. Because there are still some things that I struggle with that I'm gonna have to walk out for the rest of my walk.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Just like with Paul had a th side and he begged God three times to remove it. And he said, my grace is sufficient. So there are some things that we have to carry and walk out.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

When it comes to you feeling or you going through the experience with fear and anxiety, and I know you said you haven't had those episodes of those breaks of reality ever again, but are there moments where there are 10. Your body or mind or whatever has. Has temptations to be anxious or temptations to be panicky. And how do you like? I. I like language in the Bible when it talks of. And I'm not saying this is a sin. I'm just using the language. But it says put sin to death. Like, you have to put on this or put this to death. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's an aggressive language. How do you navigate to keep your. Your. Yourself kept.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I'm saying? Because I think that there's work that we also have to do and mindfulness that we also have to have.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

As the Lord is keeping.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

I mean, I think just because God healed or delivered you from anything doesn't mean that you're not ever going to have to deal with those tendencies or those notions again. You might not, but that's not my story either. You know, I mean, there are lots of times where an anxious thought will come and then I have to. I have to know the word of God, so that I can then apply the word of God. You know, one of my favorite scriptures is whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely. Whatever things are of good report, think on those things.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's so man.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

So that. That sometimes means me putting my phone down and not watching the news. I can't handle it because it, like, it triggers me.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yes.

[Lisa Brunson]

Honestly.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yes.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

My first. My first panic attack was me watching news.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I had it playing. I'm in my kitchen in Columbus. I had it playing just on my phone. I'm doing the dishes, and all of a sudden I felt my heart rate go up and my breathing started to change.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I called my dad and I'm like. And he's like, you're having a panic attack.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Simply because I just had on the news.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like being mindful with strategies like that.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. And so. And it's. It's really to apply the word of God practically.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So a lot of when I. When those thoughts come, I try to do what the Bible says. And it's taking every thought into captivity.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yep.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And replacing a bad thought with a good thought. And sometimes that can be really practical. That can be like putting scriptures in, like at your refrigerator, you know, putting them on your phone as your screensaver, you know, Beloved, I wish above all things I said earlier that you prosper. That was like one of my life scriptures during that time. And then there's a scripture that I love that says, cast your cares on me because I care.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so I literally do that. I will sit and say, okay, God, these are the thoughts I'm having.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

I don't like the way this makes me feel. I know this is not in accordance to your word. So I'm giving you this thought, and I literally, like, visualize my. Myself putting my thought in my hands and then handing it to the Lord.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love that. I love that.

[Lisa Brunson]

And then just sitting, you know, I'll do some grounding techniques. Right. It's practical.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

We've made the Bible so spiritual that we miss the practicality in all of it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

So, you know, I will do the natural things I know to do along with the spiritual things to do.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Partnering. Both.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

When in. In one of the parts of this song. And I. And I look, I just want to insert this. I love that you kept the rawness of your feelings and emotions in the song.

[Lisa Brunson]

I was crying.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

There's a point. And you hear it. I mean, you hear your voice break and you stop singing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I love Love that you kept that in there because you give such a raw, vulnerable depiction, and it's not performative.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I'm saying? And I think that there, even now, like, we live in a. In a culture, in a society where everything needs to look perfect and aesthetically pleasing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And the perfect. Like, the perfect run and the perfect riff and the perfect this. And that part of the song, it was like, this is my. Like, you could tell. Like, this isn't just something I wrote. This is something I lived. I walked. Like, he walked me through this. But you say the. The part that. That got me every time. Because I had felt that I had disappointed so many people in my life and disappointed God. You know, being divorced sucks. It just sucks. And it's not something that you plan to do.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You know, and it destroys families, you know, And I've seen how it's impacted my kids, and they are who I love more than anything or anyone. And the part of the song that you said, you are for me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That part every time just gets me because I had felt like he wasn't like, you're not for me. You know what I mean? Like, that's why I'm experiencing this. That's why this is hard. This is why this happened. This is because you're not for me. But that song, you kept saying you are for me. Walk us through what that meant for you. Like, why. Like, why was that in the song? And what does that mean, like, him being for you?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Wow.

[Lisa Brunson]

I think it was. It was just a realization of.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

What.

[Lisa Brunson]

The word of God really says, not what religion has made it to be.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like, in my brokenness, that he was found in that.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And that he's saying, like, just let me love you to put you back together. I am for you. I am for you in your weeping I am for you in your rejoicing I am for you in your heartbreak I am for you when you get it right. And I'm even more for you when you mess it up.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Like.

[Lisa Brunson]

Man. And just me realizing that my weakness didn't make God less powerful. He actually became more powerful when I was honest enough.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

With myself and with everybody else.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Hey. I don't have it all together.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

I. I'm not this. You know, this girl who can do it on her own.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

I can't.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and in realizing. And I've always known it, but when you go through something, it becomes real Rockshore world.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know how good he is how kind he is.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

How loving he is.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And he didn't die to make us perfect. He died to make us holy.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

That's good. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And realizing that in all of that, I think difficulties in our lives will do one of two things. They will either lead us to the Lord or they will make us run from God. And when we choose to run to the Lord, he then says, okay, I'm going to take this and I'm going to replace it with something better. And I'm going to shape you and mold you into the likeness of my Son through this. That's what Romans 8, 28 and 29 really mean.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right?

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

All things work together for the good of them that love him and are called according to his purpose. But then the next verse says, to be conformed to the likeness of the Son. So some difficulties I think we bring on ourselves, and then some difficulties I think God brings. Whether God brings it or we bring it or life brings it, he uses. Uses all of it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

To make us more like Jesus.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. So in that you are for me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

God was there and he is for me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I. I love. I love that you acknowledged that you had to acknowledge your weakness.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Do you know what I mean? And I've talked about Paul when he's says, I'll boast more, even more.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

In my weakness.

[Lisa Brunson]

In my weakness.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because he says, first I am weak, then I am strong. And I'm just learning that I cannot have strength. That God can be display, like his perfect strength cannot be on display without first me acknowledging my weakness.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And doing that great exchange. Like you said, like, here are my cares, here's my weakness. Weakness.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I'm going to exchange my weakness, my brokenness, my fragility. I'm going to exchange that for your perfected strength.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And. And like even in the. Even in the beginning part of the song. I'm sorry, the course of this song. I love that you said that you were scriptural, biblical about saying perfect love takes my fear. You didn't say perfect faith. You didn't.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You didn't say perfect servant.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You didn't say perfect works.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

But it's his perfect love. Receiving his perfect love.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That flushes out and washes away all of the fear. I just. That song has been. I don't know, I. I think it needs to be like, if you are ever going through anything thing, put the song on and just let the Lord minister to you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because it ministers every single time.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Have you Been. What has been your experience with people's experience with a song? Like, does it make your suffering two. Two part? Yeah, you're suffering in the breaks of reality, the anxiety, the panic.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Has.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Have you looked back on that suffering and those trials? And is there a gratitude that you have for some of that because of what it's brought out of you? What it's. What it's made, you know, more about the Lord and, you know, for sure.

[Lisa Brunson]

I think in. In Christianity, in Christianity today, like, especially in Americanized in Christianity, everything is about the blessing, and none of it is about the suffering, you know, And I can say wholeheartedly, I'm thankful for was some of the hardest years of my life to date. But I'm thankful for it because. Because it forced me to find out who God was beyond what I had been told.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's good.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

That's good.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I've always had a relationship with the Lord, but it was almost like in that relationship, I only wanted him to see the parts of me that were good, not the parts of me that were broken. And when I took my brokenness to him, it's like, I see this all through the scriptures now. So the Bible kind of came alive to me in that. So I'm thankful for it now.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And I am floored and humbled that the song has had the effect that it did.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

When we got together to wrote it, I wrote it with my sister and who's amazing. Yeah, she is. Loves us. Amazing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And Chandler more. And it was 2019, and I was writing for an album that I've still not done.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Lisa.

[Lisa Brunson]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Well, we just gave you an idea for another song.

[Lisa Brunson]

It's coming. But we were just sitting there in the living room, and he was like, so what are we going to write about? And I was like, who knows? And he goes, chandler said, so what's the struggle you've had? Let's write about the struggle. And I said, oh, God. And I, you know, I immediately started bawling, and I was like, panic, fear, anxiety. And he said, so what's the scripture that's seen you through it? Perfect love takes my fear. And then within seconds, it just flowed. Like when panic steals the breath, I breathe. Breathe. When life's just not what it used to be. Help me remember, like, in the middle of a panic attack, in the middle of when life changes, and I'm, like, figuring out a new normal and, you know, learning to receive the love and the forgiveness of the Lord and giving love and forgiveness to people that have Hurt me, help me remember in all of that that your love takes fear.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's the literal perfect song. Perfect love is the perfect song. Literally. It's literally just the. It's. It's.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

If you guys don't know that song, you need to download it immediately. But one song that you do know that you have been singing that was written by the Lisa Marie Bronson is Waymaker, the bridge of Waymaker. So y' all know that part of the song where it says, even when I don't see it, you're working. Even when I don't feel it, you're working. Y' all have been singing this song out. I ain't. I ain't been to a church that ain't saying that song. Especially that part of the song.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. So I didn't write the song.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You didn't write the song.

[Lisa Brunson]

Part of her bridge, which is actually not the original bridge.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

It's not you.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

This is all. That was all call you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So how did that come about?

[Lisa Brunson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

As I know. I know you have to go soon, but that. That. Yeah, that. This is, like, major because you. That people are singing your bridge. Your riff of the bridge.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Every where. Like in con. In other countries, they are singing.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Something that God just downloaded to you in a service at your brother's church. So tell.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Like, tell us how that.

[Lisa Brunson]

So, okay. So how it happened. And the part she's talking about is. Even when I don't feel it, you're working. Even when I don't know. Even when I. Even when I see it, you're working. Even when I don't feel it, you're working. You never stop. You never stop working. So the story. And you walked through some of this. A lot of this.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

With us. A lot of this. So my husband has had health issues, and he had some really serious complications with his eyes from some of those health issues where he's had. I don't even know how many laser surgeries on his eyes he's had. But then he has had four really invasive surgeries.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Is that one where he had to lay. Remember when he had to lay a certain way?

[Lisa Brunson]

So, yeah. So his retina detached from his eye, and he was losing his eyesight. And so they went in and they did a surgery where they took, like, the front part of his eyeball out and they. Yeah, it's. It's crazy. And they did a surgery to reattach the retina. And then his recovery, he had to lay face down. It was a contraption like 24. Well, 20. I think it was like 22 out of 24 hours in the day for seven days. And so that the retina would work to reattach itself. And while the retina did reattach, there were some other complications. And it was the fourth surgery. That was where they had literally taken parts of his eye out to try to fix and save the vision. And every time the surgeon was so. She was amazing and she was so hopeful and she was like, this surgery is going to do it, it's going to fix it. It's going to be amazing. And, you know, we're walking through it and standing on the word of God and doing all those things that we know to do. And the fourth time she came out into the waiting room and he was in recovery. And she came out and my parents were sitting in the room with me. And she said, I've done all I can do and without God healing him, his vision is not coming back. And I was devastated. And it's kind of like, what do you do when. What you believing for and what's in the word when you don't see it happen? It's. It's a hard place to be in.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

Like to still have faith in that. And so when Germane woke up, we told him the news and we were just devastated. And I was kind of like, you know, this isn't what I signed up for. We both were like that. Like, God, we've served you, We've given our lives to you. We love your people, we try to do everything right. And you're not gonna do this. Like, where are you in that?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yep. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

I mean, that's really honest.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Like, you know, I get it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And so we were like, okay. And all the. All these things are rolling through my mind, like, so he's not gonna be able to teach our kids how to drive. Is he even gonna be able to walk our kids down the aisle? Is he as is he? Is he going to see me to be able to grow old with me? Is he going to know what I look like when I'm 70? Like, this isn't. This isn't the blessed and highly favored life.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

This is not the prosper life. I was right. I signed up for you.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. And so we asked our pastor for that Sunday off and we just wanted to go be with family. And my sister and brother in law pastor a church. It's amazing. The Kingdom center in Louisville, that's where you are.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Go visit.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I can't wait to come.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I Still haven't been there in all these years. I need to come visit.

[Lisa Brunson]

You just better go on a Sunday. We're there.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yes.

[Lisa Brunson]

But we were standing there in church and they were doing that song, and my sister had asked me, she was like, do you want to sing today? And I was like, honestly, no. No, the last thing I want to do is sing. And. But that song was the third song in the worship set and I was standing down on the front row by my brother in law and then my husband, and literally it was like God gave me those lyrics in that instance and I was just singing them and I was like, oh, I need to remember this. This is like, you know, this is.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You're a worship leader. Like, I didn't know.

[Lisa Brunson]

This is good enough for me to remember this. And my brother in law went up to transition the service and he looked down at me and he said, said, walk up here, get a mic. I don't care how you feel. Sing what God just gave you. And I walked up there and I was crying and I was like, even when I don't see it, you're working.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Wow.

[Lisa Brunson]

So everyone thinks that that's like a, like a non literal translation. But that lyric was about my husband. Like, he literally did. Doesn't see out of that eye.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah, he's.

[Lisa Brunson]

I mean, legally blind in that eye. And so even when he doesn't see it and when, even when I don't understand it, you're still working. And so then we went back and I just thought, oh, that's, you know. Okay.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That was for that moment.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, that was for that moment it was done. And then we went back to the church and I sang it on a Sunday there. And then they posted it on YouTube, went everywhere and it went viral. And now everyone has adopted it as the bridge to the song. But really it just came to me in a moment and it was a prophetic declaration for what we were walking through.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Have you talked to the person who wrote this song? Like, have you been able to, like, have you guys been in contact for.

[Lisa Brunson]

For.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Because that blew up their song. I mean, I don't know if that.

[Lisa Brunson]

Song would have never actually had a one on one conversation with.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's crazy. That's crazy. But that song, it has. That part that you. That God prophetically gave you has been like such a. Yeah. It just meant, I mean, anywhere someone sings it, the church goes crazy.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah. And I think that that's. I think that's one of the things that's so powerful about like what you're doing and what God is calling you to do. Like. And what God has called actually every believer to do. And it's just to share your testimony.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

Right.

[Lisa Brunson]

And let God use that.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

It.

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, the outcome of what you walk through.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

To show his love to people and to bless people.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

That's.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I mean, and it says that we're saved by the word of our test. Like, we. Like giving our testimony is important.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And I pray that people feel that and get that from this episode, is that, you know, and I'm not saying you got to get. Prop up your phone and you got to tell all your business. That's not what I'm saying.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Right.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

That's not what I'm saying. Because there is a time and place for everything, and that's why you need community and discipleship, wise counsel, all the things. But there is. Even if it's, you know, it doesn't always have to be a public thing, but having courage.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

To share it with someone, you know, at your job.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Share your testimony.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Share what the Lord has done for you. You share the trials that you. That he's brought you through. Do you know what I'm saying? Share the triumphs. Share the. The. The mountaintops that he's brought you to. Even in that. How he's brought you through the.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Like, share those things, whether it's public.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

On a public platform, or even if it's with, you know, a family member or a friend or a coworker or, you know, I don't know, your Uber eats person. They come to the door, share the good news.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And.

[Lisa Brunson]

And the other. I think that's so good, what you said. And. And to put that in perspective, I probably wrote that bridge in 2017. I don't even know the year I said earlier. I'm not the date person. And this is the first time I've ever shared that testimony in a public setting.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Wow.

[Lisa Brunson]

So, you know, I mean, seven, eight years removed is the first time. Like my husband and I. Because it's not really my testimony, it's really his.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, I was just able to coin, you know, four phrases.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

That encapsulated it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, so knowing the time.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

That's, you know, when you've walked through it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

And you're on the other side of it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

That's, you know, and you're healed.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

From it.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Lisa Brunson]

You know, and here's the reality. My husband still does not see out of that eye today. But here's what I know. God is still working.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Yeah, he is. All the time.

[Lisa Brunson]

All the time.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

All the time. And I love that.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I just love.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

You're just the best.

[Lisa Brunson]

You are.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

I could literally talk to you about.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So many things because there's, like I said, half of my life. You've literally known me half of my life and seen me through a lot of things, see me grow and mature. I probably pray because God knows I needed a lot of that. But thank you for. I know this was so out of your comfort zone, but thank you.

[Lisa Brunson]

I'm glad to do it with you because it was like sitting on the couch talking to my friend.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Thank you. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your ministry, your heart. Thank you. Just thank you for what you've been in my life life. For being a big sister, you know, for us to not see each other for five years. And I still know that you love me.

[Lisa Brunson]

Absolutely. You know, pick up like we never left off.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Thank you.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I love you.

[Lisa Brunson]

I love you.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

And. Okay, so I always. I'm gonna cry again. I always end every episode with a journal prompt because journaling is important to me.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

So I always give my guests the opportunity to give our audience a journal prompt after every episode. So after this episode, the things that we talk through, what would be a good way for them to process? I feel like we consume so much information and we just move on to the next thing without digesting and processing. But what would be like a good journal prompt for them to process this episode? Or what do you want them to walk away with?

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Or.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Or maybe even like process with the Lord with.

[Lisa Brunson]

Yeah, maybe it would be this. Today I'm going to trust God.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

God with blank.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Yeah, that's good.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Today I'm going to trust God with blank. I love that. I love you. Thank you.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

Love you guys. I will see you next week.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Thanks for joining.

[Co-host or Podcast Announcer]

What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow In Totality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite show, Follow in Totality on Apple podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Whenever there's a new episode.

[Lisa Brunson]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Commercial Announcer]

Hmm. It's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Lisa Brunson]

Could you be more specific?

[Commercial Announcer]

When it's cravinient.

[Supporting Speaker / Affirmations]

Okay.

[Commercial Announcer]

Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Host (possibly Megan Ashley)]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

[Commercial Announcer]

What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience. Am, pm too much good stuff.