← In Totality with Megan Ashley
In Totality with Megan Ashley
EP 90: Rebranding the Church: Unity and Purpose ft. Dr. Eric Mason
00:52:57
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A
What's up, fam? Listen. If you've been blessed by In Totality the podcast, then I want to personally invite you to go deeper by joining our Patreon community called the Village. Every Tuesday morning, the Village members get early access to the full episode of the podcast two days before it drops publicly on YouTube. So while everyone else is waiting, you're already soaking it in. But that's just the beginning. As a Village member, you get exclusive access to the In Totality docu series. It' the scenes. Look at how I walk on my faith in real life. No filters, no fluff, just real moments of me trusting the Lord, processing life, and growing in truth. We also do live book club zoom calls where we read and grow together in the Word. I'm not just talking at you worth walking through it together, asking questions, wrestling through scriptures, learning to follow Christ more fully. You know, like that Romans 12. You'll also get bonus content, extra conversations with podcast guests that go even deeper, plus moments that didn't make it to the episode, but were just too good not to share. And one more thing. When you join the Village, you get first access to merch before it drops public. So if you love the message and you want to rep the movement, you'll get first dibs every time. But more than the content, the Village is about community. It's a safe place for believers to connect and grow and be reminded that you're not doing this walk alone. You're a part of something real we're building, and we would love for you to be a part. So hit pause. Go to www.patreon.com meganashley and join today and I'll meet you there. Hey, guys. Welcome Back to part two of my conversation with Dr. Eric Mason. As we conclude our conversation regarding his book, his brand new book dropping September 30th, rebranding the church. I hope you guys enjoy.
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B
I think in this day and age, there's too many crazy churches out here.
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A
Yeah.
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B
An environment of repentance minimizes trauma.
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A
Oh, my goodness.
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B
And I went live and in tears. I repented.
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A
How do you know what the devil be telling me.
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B
If you're in a letter in the Bible that's ain't no more public in that. That was the social media. So Peter gonna go berserk. Look at now. Now Peter talking reckless. I think we've mastered being inwardly focused on, but I think we've done a poor job of being outwardly and upwardly focused.
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A
What are the red flags? I would say.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Of a bad. Of A bad church or unhealthy church and the green flags of a healthy church.
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B
That's a real good question. So one of the things that I would encourage is for you to date churches. I don't have a problem with that. I think in this day and age, there's too many crazy churches out here. Yeah, you gotta give yourself time to see a church through a season, to see. Not like two or three years or something. We've had people do that. But I'm saying, like, I've been visiting for three months and I noticed the culture, the sermons are consistent, the people are loving. I've been able to go to different things, get information. I think that's healthy. I think that's healthy. And I think if you are hurting, you need to date. You do, you do, and you need to heal. Some people may not become a member. I've had people come to my church and said, I'll say, I'm not asking you to become a member. Just come here and heal. Just sit and soak and that's okay. And I'm not worried about anything from you. I just, I. I can tell you are wounded, and then sometime I'll shepherd them through. I said, do you think the situation is too unhealthy for you to go and tell them, not go back and join the church, but to go back to where you were hurt, to tell them that you're hurt? Because some people leave, leave situations and don't give that church a chance to grow from letting them know what it did to them. So if the church, if this is an environment where, because I've had people, I've hurt people, you know what I'm saying? As a. I mean, you're not gonna do this for as long as I've done it and not rub somebody the wrong way, say something stupid from the pulpit or something, and the person left, like somebody recently left and they were left over. I don't even wanna talk about it. But I did reach out to them and I said, I said, like, personally, I don't think I. What they were mad at me about was something to be mad at me about, but they were mad at me about it. But this is what I said to them, though. I said, I reached out to them. I said, I love you and I'm willing to sit down and talk with you. You're thinking that I said something that wasn't right and that's fine, but you ghosting me is not biblical. So you're dealing with something that you believe is a biblical Issue unbiblically. You understand what I'm saying?
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A
So allowing your hurt to now be in sin. Like, now you can be in sin.
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B
Now you're in sin.
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Error.
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Because the Bible said, if you have all against your brother, you go to lay your.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, and so I think that we don't have. I do think that people can be intimidated by leadership at certain points. But I also think that people sometimes create. There's a population of people that create a narrative of church hurt that doesn't exist. It's perception of hurt. And it's also. And then it's also. We're just in a la carte culture, Meghan. We just.
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A
Yeah. I wanted you making me think. Because I'm like, do I need to go back to my pastor and say, you hurt my feelings? Like, do I need to do that? Or should it have been obvious? Because I feel like it was obvious. But you know what I'm saying? I'm like, do I need to go back and be like, that hurt me?
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B
Yeah. I don't. I don't know the situation. But I think that if it's possible and it's an environment that you can say, hey, I wanna circle back with you. I know I left and this is not me coming back. If it's an environment where you feel safe, like, you could do that. If it's an environment that was cultic and unsafe and it was authoritarian and yeah, for sure. It's like, no, no. Got it. But if it's a space where there are flaws there, but it would be worth it.
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A
Got it.
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To talk through it, I think it would be a blessing. I've seen so many people healing their relationships. I've had people come to me, try to join the church, and I said, I think you need to go back to your old church and fix some stuff, because you're going to come here and bring whatever it was.
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A
And it could also be an opportunity for that pastor to repent and even see the error in some of his, like, you know what I'm saying? Because I also don't think. I don't think it's fair to hold an offense towards someone and then never give them an opportunity that's not biblical to apologize because they may not. People can, like you said, be intimidated and never tell. They can just have a bunch of yes men around them and no one ever tell them, hey, this is. This is harmful or this is hurtful.
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B
Yeah. One time I said something, I call people some coons. Cause I was mad. I just went Tourette's on some black people. And I said, all y' all some coon Negroes. You know, I said that from the pulpit. And a couple from my church, they've been with us almost from the beginning. They sent me a very gracious, gracious, gracious. They started off, pastor, we want to let you know we have experienced so much blessing from this church. You have done this. Our children are this. We just want to bring to your attention. We are not leaving, and we're not condemning you. But we don't. I'm just paraphrasing.
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We don't.
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We don't believe that that statement is a proper representation of what you wanted to say or even in the spirit of which you gave. It was honoring to God. We're not saying you lack character when we're just saying we don't think that that was befitting of you as a shepherd to do. And I went live because it was online and in tears. I repented. And people responded to that repentance with. I've never seen a pastor get confronted by members of his church and come forward and respond in kind. And so I think we need to normalize that. We need to normalize men expressing their emotions like they say.
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We need to normalize pastors publicly repenting.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And not because you. Because as a leader, you can kind of. And that's something that needs to be rebranded. Because I think that you. You know how as a parent, if you're wrong, you can finagle your kids. You can. You can handle them.
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Sure.
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You can handle them.
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Yeah.
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That's how it is as a pastor and a leader. If you're in power, you can kind of handle the situation and get away with not repenting in the sense of people. But if you have a real relationship with God, God don't let you get.
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Away with it at all. Do you know how many times, even with my kids, where God is like, you need to go apologize.
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Yes.
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Like, making that a normal thing.
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Yes.
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Apologizing to your kids. And I think in the same way it goes for a shepherd over a. For a house, it's like you need to normalize. If you struck. Struck the rock when you were supposed to speak to the rock, you need to, like, It's. It's okay.
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B
Listen to me. An environment of repentance minimizes trauma.
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A
That's good.
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How many people will be healed if somebody just says, oh, my goodness. You understand what I'm saying? Like, creating, like, an environment where we all know we're not perfect that doesn't mean we run over each other and say, I repent. Like.
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Yeah.
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And it doesn't really mean anything. But we're talking about where there's a healthy, healthy environment of encouragement, but also a healthy environment of rebuke. That's good. Yeah.
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A
Okay, so another question that I had for you. As far as rebranding the church because of social media, the church looks different. How we do. Church looks different. Right. And you have different mediums of expressing the gospel.
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B
Yeah.
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But I'm interested in how we handle conflict is harming, how we are being represented to the world as the church. Because before social media, you know, it was kitchen table talk.
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B
Yeah.
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Now it's not kitchen table talk. People are jumping in front of their phones and they're just saying whatever they want to say. What is a healthy way and. Yeah. What is a healthy way to deal with conflict as the church? And how. Because I feel what I'm witnessing is I feel like there are so many young, like baby Christians and unbelievers that are being harmed by what we're doing to each other publicly.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And so as a pastor, as a leader, how can we not add more harm to the conflict that we're seeing? Because people. Because that's part of our. I feel like it's part of our brand now as a church.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that there is helpful and unhelpful confrontation and there's levels to this. Right. Like we say about a lot of things, one of the things that I think is important is believers, not non Christians, but believers having a biblical understanding of confrontation. So I think, you know, over the last few months, there was some confrontations happening publicly. Right. And I think that people are like, why are Christians doing this publicly and doing that? And it. But, but they don't even. They haven't read. They haven't read the Bible about conflict. Conflict and how we should deal with conflict. And because so many people are decentralized from the local church, because people are going out here just saying anything and people are following foolishness. It has to be done publicly. So somebody would say, well, why didn't you go to that person if they said this particular thing? And I say, well, you're using Matthew 18. Matthew 18 is about personal offenses. If something's already public, then you don't do Matthew 18 because it's public. The whole reason why you have Matthew 18 is to minimize the publicity of something so that a person can repent without it affecting them in ways what people who don't need to know. Don't need to know.
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Correct, Right, correct.
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And so, and so, but, but when you like 1 Corinthians 5, where the guy bringing his stepmom to church, you know, and they're sleeping together, he's like, I've already handed them over to Satan, you know, in other words, it was public. You know, you got Paul talking to Peter, you know, in Galatians 2, you got Paul talking to Demius and Alexander. I've handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught not to blaspheme. You got, you know, John and second John and third John saying, yeah, he wants to be first. That's public. Like, if you're in a letter in the Bible, that's ain't no more public than that. All the churches know that was the social media.
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Right.
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You understand what I'm saying?
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Right, right, right, right.
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And so, so I'm saying, like, we don't have a. But I do think that there is a content creation culture that's a clickbait culture that's built on low hanging fruit of the same thing. You know, if you've done one, like, I, I just think that, you know, y' all have done enough videos on Mike Todd. Leave the man alone.
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A
You feel that way?
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I just, I'm just like, who else need. If I open up my newsfeed and I see one more video on Philip Anthony Mitchell, Jesus, one more on Mike Todd. I'm not comp. You know, I'm just saying, like, like, I'm just like, I'm just like, what else do y' all need to say? Because y' all always are like, yeah, I just, I'm just like, what else, what else you need to say about Juanita Bono? What else do you need to say about tdj? I'm just like, is that your whole platform is to react to when either a healthy pastor makes a mistake, or is it all about false teachers who are saying the same thing?
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Yeah.
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And so I'm just like, when somebody falls sexually a moral failure, your platform is doing something. I was like, now that right there, I don't like that. I just don't like that.
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So how can we rebrand that?
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Yeah, I think rebranding that is just. Is like, it's really simple. I like horror movies that I don't get a demonic full feel from it. Like a horror movie. Like, a horror movie isn't always like a demon. It could be just a slasher. Right. Like even in the old horror movies. Right. By the time good Wins at the end. You're so scared that. That good winning doesn't matter.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like, now you're traumatized forever.
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Yes, I'm traumatized. So it's like with. With rebranding, how much of your time is spent on what the solution is?
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Yeah.
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Versus what the problem is. If you do a video that lasts 25 minutes and you spend 15 to 20 minutes doing a reaction to what said and dogging. And then in the last five minutes, you're trying to bring out some verses on it, it kind of like I just felt like I've indulged in unbiblical view of love and how it talks about not. Not. Not taking, like, not enjoying seeing someone in a particular position.
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A
There's a guy. I don't know if you've heard. I don't. I don't even want to say his name, and I don't remember it anyway. But there's a guy that's on YouTube that does re. He kind of does. It's not even reactions, but he walks through different preachers and people's sermons. But the way that he does it, even his tone and delivery isn't critical. And I enjoy watching. I haven't watched a lot of it. I've seen maybe like two or three videos that he's done, but I enjoy watching him do it because he. He does it with so much. Like, if there's a point that they said. Right. He's like, okay, they're right. They're right here. This is why they're right. He goes to scripture and shows throughout the entire video. So it's not like he's just ragging on them the whole video. And then like you said the last five minutes, here's a scripture to try to edify at the last minute. But like, throughout the whole thing, he's showing where they're correct and showing where this is where you might need to be careful with what they just said, because this is what scripture says. So I think that there is a way to edify people, edify the church by using an ex, using examples. But I feel like the majority of what we're seeing is just like, just criticism and not love.
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B
Yeah. I think that you only can give what you're receiving from God. If you're not experiencing God's love and grace and mercy, you're not going to give it. That's number one. And then when you deal with sheep, it makes you more compassionate.
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Yeah.
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When you're around actual people that you Love that are dealing with difficult issues. You can't treat it as an abstract, distant, transcendent idea. If you're dealing with a family member that is in a cult. If you're dealing with a family member.
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A
That'S you saying, y' all need to go outside and get out of them rooms and podcasts. Go outside. I can't.
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B
Like, I can't. Like, I can't talk about certain things because I got people I'm ministering to. So there's a way that I have to talk about it. Cause they're gonna see it.
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Yeah.
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Cause if I talk about it in a real judgy way, I've closed the door with them.
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You've harmed your witness.
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B
Like, everybody thinks I just need to blast every false teacher. I don't think that's my job. I blast false teaching. God will show me certain people to bring up. But there are other people. God told me, I want you to build common ground with that person. And so if you publicly blast them, they'll be insecure. But they follow me. And there's several false teachers or people who have bad teaching. They follow me. And that's. There's a reason for that. And so I want to steward that in a way where I get common ground. Not that I'm the greatest that ever did or anything, but I do think that I'm healthy doctrinally to a point where I want to be an influence. How much would it be if I won the false teacher? Look at, look at, look at, look at, look at this verse and this, this. There's a time. So you got to know what type of some. I'm going to turn the second Timothy two. Right. And so there are times where you do need to do a hard rebuke.
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Yeah.
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But then there are times where Paul says this. It's in verse 23. Now, usually we start at verse 22, because that's a famous one.
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A
You said second Timothy what?
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Two.
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Two. Got it.
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Yo. So it says in verse 22, it says, flee youthful passions, which means immaturity, not just sex. He tells him to flee immaturity, Timothy. And pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart, seek community. But then look what he says. He said, but this is what I want you to do. But reject foolish and ignorant disputes because you know that they breed quarrels. Now, he's going to get some qualifications for how to deal with certain types of false teachers and people who are straight. He says, the Lord's servant Must not be. Must not quarrel or be quarrelsome, but must be gentle to everyone. Able to teach patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Why, perhaps God will grant them repentance, leading them to the knowledge of the truth.
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That's good.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And so there's some false teachers. They're so dangerous you gotta deal with them. That's second Peter. Now Peter talking different. Now turn to second Peter. Now see, that's you got to know who's an imminent danger and who's a distant danger. So Peter gonna go berserk. Look at now. Now Peter talking reckless like. Now watch how you talk. He was saying, he said, he said.
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A
You said Second Peter.
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B
Second Peter Two.
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Two.
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There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring destructive heresies, even denying the master who brought them, and will bring swift destruction to them on themselves. Many will follow depraved their depraved ways. And the way of the truth will be maligned because of them. That's the problem right there. They will exploit you with their greed, prosperity, teaching with made up stories portals their condemnation. Pronouncement pronounced long ago is not idle. And their destruction does not sleep.
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A
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B
Look at what he says. He said, for God did not spare the angels and who sinned, but cast them into hell and delivered them in chains of utter darkness and kept for judgment. And if he didn't spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others when he brought the flood on the world of the ungodly. And if he reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to extinction, many making them an example of of what is coming. Look at what he says. He says. He says over. I'mma go over to verse. Oh, oh Lord, he gonna be talking reckless. Look at. Look at verse 10. He said, especially those who follow the polluting desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold, arrogant people. They are not afraid to slander the glorious ones. However, angels who or are greater in might and power, do not bring a slanderous charge against them before the Lord. But these people are irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, slander what they do not understand. And in their destruction, they too will be destroyed. They will pay. They will be paid back with harm for the harm that they have done. Listen to what he calls them. They are. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight like they are spots and blemishes. Like. Like. So you see the balance different.
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Yeah.
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B
You see the people that are effectively demonically influenced.
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Yeah.
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But then they are the misinformed. See, Second Timothy's talking about the misinformed, that they're immature.
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A
I was about to say it's immaturity.
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The immaturity.
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A
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B
Pretty and biblically illiterate in their teaching comes out of that. But second Peter, are those who know what the heck they're doing.
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And so how do you discern the difference between someone who is just immature and someone who is like, who's who? Like, you know what you're doing? Cause I could tell the difference. I don't know if I can, but I'm just saying I feel like I could tell the difference. I'm like you, I think. I feel like you know what you're doing. And this one is like, oh, you're just immature.
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B
Yeah. So the Bible says a elder should not be a neophyte. A new convert I don't believe most false teachers are saved at all. That's. That's because he said their destruction was from beforehand. But I do believe that they are saved. People that have been thrusted into leadership and their, Their ministering comes out of immaturity. Not and. And not. And they're not trying to be an intentional false teacher. And they just need an Apollos with Priscilla and Aquila moment. They need to be shown a better way.
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Got it.
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And so I think there's some people that God has given me connection with. God has given me the opportunity to do two Timothy with him. But the other ones, we gotta. That's two. Peter is different. And so I think that's the clear balance of that is when you see a leader do immature things because all false teaching is immature. It's not just immature, it's destructive. Not all immaturity is destructive. It's just misinformed.
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Got it.
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B
And so that's where. That's where I kind of land that.
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Okay.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I think, I think the reason why I say I. I think it's important, but the reason why I say I feel like I have been able to discern properly is because I've had proper discipleship.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Do you see what I'm saying? So I have people like you, like Jackie, like Phil, you know, like Dr. Sarita, where I can call and be like, hey, help me work through this, or, hey, I heard this from this person.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What do you, like, help me walk through this with scripture, like, you know what I'm saying? And you guys are gonna. Because there have been several times where I've called you, I'm like, yeah, I had a friend that had a question about this. Help me walk through what is correct doctrine and what is not. Do you know what I'm saying? I think healthy discipleship and sound teaching being under sound teaching helps you be able to discern what is immature and what is just destructive.
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B
But I think the key to what you're saying, and one of the things I want to encourage you with that you're saying, is you seek answers from good places.
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A
Yeah.
- [30:14]
B
You not just going, let me put this into YouTube. Let me put this in the TikTok. You know, you need to have, you know, you have a solid pastor where you have a level of proximity to him. And people in churches having proximity to leaders, that's another. That's such an important thing when you're in a healthy church, to have a level of proximity. Any of my members, they got access to me anytime to reach out to me and ask, set up a meeting, whatever. They even DM me. And I respond, you know, So I think, for me, I just think that it's encouraging that, and I think it's admirable and something that you need to. I think that's a whole thing that you need to talk about. How do I put myself in a teachable position? And telling people, how do you put yourself in a teachable position? And you could just talk about, listen, signs of teachability. I'm just giving you a whole thing. Signs of teachability, why teachability is important and the impact of teachability, then proper sources to be taught from. How do you judge what type of person is a worthy reservoir to pull from? I think that every believer needs to have. You don't have to be a mature person fully in the faith to know that something's healthy.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah.
- [31:29]
B
You know what I'm saying?
- [31:30]
A
That's a fact.
- [31:30]
B
Yeah.
- [31:31]
A
And I think, like you said, I think because everyone, you know, the Lord is gracious and kind to put me in a position where I can't have a. A different level of access to the people that I have access to. But that's why I think it's important that churches have a dense leadership where they can get access to. If. Even if I can't get to my pastor, I can get to an elder that is just as sound, just as thoughtful, just as caring, just as present where I can get some counsel and help. Like, I think there are too many. There are so many people coming to the faith right now, and they're just left on their own.
- [32:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:12]
A
They're figuring it out from TikTok pastors and Instagram prophets, and you know what I'm saying, Like, they're. They're just left out to figure it out on their own. And that's why, like, I have such a heart for discipleship, because I know how it's transformed my life.
- [32:27]
B
I think you have a heart for discipleship, but I think God has given you a mantle as a resource hub. I just think that that's something God's gonna bless you to do because I think you kind of represent the regular irregular person out there that I just want to encourage you. Don't stop being a regular believer, because I think it's easy for somebody to look at a pastor or whatever. I think that being a regular believer who's navigating faith is a huge example. And I think that that's a good form of content creation. Branding your content creation around. I'm a regular believer like y'. All. And these are some, I know I have a platform, but these are some of the things that I do to get my self resource to just be a better believer. Yeah, because every Christian doesn't need to be in full time ministry. You know what I'm saying? Like we need solid Christians everywhere. You know what I'm saying? And so we, when we talk about rebranding, let's, let's normalize Christian not needing the adjective like radical.
- [33:32]
A
That's good.
- [33:33]
B
Faithful, that's good.
- [33:34]
A
Just, just believe.
- [33:36]
B
Christians should be infused. It should be. It should be. Of course we're not comparing it to the name of Jesus, but when the Bible says, and he has exalted his name above every name, that the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue comes down. In other words, God took Jehovah, Rapha, Jehovah, Raph, Sikanu, Jehovah, Nisi, and even Yahweh and infused it in Yeshua's name. So that when that name is. When that, it's the multivitamin pill of all of the names of God to do whatever is distributed to do. I feel the Holy Ghost right there. And so that's why the name of Jesus is infused like a multivitamin pill with all of those things. Imagine if the word Christian was just infused with all of the beautiful things that we're supposed to be as believers. That's what it's supposed to be.
- [34:20]
A
Do do you feel like that? Because I had a question about Ephesians 4 where it talks about being united. Like how. Because I feel like, because we are so not united. That's why we have to. Why am I this Christian? I'm a this Christian, right? Like the super spiritual Christians or the. Yeah, the, the logical Christian. Do you know what I'm saying? There's these different adjectives with Christian where. How can we be united? Great question as the church. And how important is that for us to be unified in Christ?
- [35:00]
B
I remember as a young believer and I know are you churchy? So I know you won't be able to get this one right. We don't fight for victory, we fight from victory. You so churchy. I knew you was churchy. Listen, we're not trying to be unified. We're already unified.
- [35:16]
A
Got it?
- [35:17]
B
When you were baptized in the body of Christ, we were baptized into one body. The problem is we're not practically walking in the unity that he secured for us on the cross. That's what Ephesians 4 is about. That's what Ephesians 2 is about. That's what First Corinthians 12 is about. In other words, he's like, you're already, you're already united. The question is, is realizing that you are. And so in answering your question and framing it around that reality is, is how can we be more united? First off, we have to know, we have to distinguish what's Christianity and what's not.
- [35:58]
A
Got it?
- [35:59]
B
Because we're not talking about uniformity, we're talking about unity. Right. And so if we don't establish that, because if you try to unite with people that don't believe the same thing, it's going to still be disjointed because we're not. If you, if you believe, you got to be baptized, coming out, speaking in tongues to be saved. And I believe in by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone, that person ain't a Christian. So in other words, I think getting on the same page with, to one another in understanding what we stand on and what non essentials can we live without?
- [36:27]
A
Yeah.
- [36:28]
B
Like does my non essential make me view myself as a better Christian than you? Because you have to have a. When I say non essential, we're talking about anything that's not that. You know, we talk about the Godhead, the inerrancy of scripture, Christ dying on the cross for salvation, all the things, the resurrection, all that. But when you start saying, well, I believe Saturday is the Sabbath, it's like eh, it's still technically the day that God set aside, but is it a requirement for salvation?
- [36:55]
A
Correct.
- [36:56]
B
Can you be a Christian? And you say I celebrate the Sabbath, but I don't believe that a person that doesn't celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday is not only not violating scripture, but I do believe they're saved. And so yeah. And so I believe that you believe in women elders and pastors and you don't. I'm not fighting you about that. Like I'm too old to fight about y' all speak in tongues. We don't speak in tongues. I don't have time for none of that. And nowadays those are not issues for me.
- [37:24]
A
Yeah.
- [37:24]
B
And so once you minimize those things without it having all of the character things, and I think now we need to begin to say how can we be on the same page about making sure that we understand that every sector of the body has its sector of an assignment that may be different than mine. And so I don't have to and I can, but it's the same mission. That's why I think on the last podcast I talked about purpose versus assignment because I think people view their assignment as purpose. And then when they have viewed their assignment as purpose and they don't realize that they're on an assignment that's on a bigger purpose. If you see somebody that they may be doing God's purpose through the assignment they have, but the assignment is different. You believe they need to be doing your assignment to. Because you believe you're in God's purpose versus an assignment that's going towards just one purpose.
- [38:16]
A
And that, I promise you, it is one of the most asked questions that I get from people in my DMs, my Patreon community. How do I know my purpose? How do I know my purpose?
- [38:27]
B
I have a whole chapter on rebranding purpose and dreaming.
- [38:32]
A
I'm like, this was. That was such a good chapter where you talk about identity. And you talked about. I literally wrote this down. Identity, significance, dignity. I think all of that is so important because we, like you said, we have now determined our assignment as our purpose. When our purpose is to love God, love our neighbor, make disciples of all nations, that is our purpose as a Christian, your assignment may look differently, but the purpose is this. So in my assignment, am I loving God? In my assignment, am I loving people? In my assignment, am I making disciples? I'm not saying you got to be in a pulpit, but when you're working at Arby's, are you loving God? Are you loving his people? Are you making disciples? Are you sharing the like? I don't think you have to be in a pulpit to do the purpose.
- [39:24]
B
When you understand purpose, you can discern so much. For instance, I remember this prophet was telling these women, you, you, you. God has called you to be like a pit bull, a dog.
- [39:39]
A
Jesus, I don't want to do that.
- [39:42]
B
I was like, now he's called you. So they're making their purpose to have animal energy. Now, where does.
- [39:56]
A
Is that in the Bible?
- [39:58]
B
In God's economy, we're supposed to be wise as serpents and gentlemen and gentle and innocent as doves. Right? So that doesn't mean we. Now, if you're saying God has called you as a warrior, cool. Well, that's Ephesians 6. Yeah, but. And so. And so again, our purposes are already written in Scripture.
- [40:20]
A
That's good.
- [40:20]
B
The question is, how do we just plug. Plug our stuff in that? You know, like, how do you. If you are doing some. Some particular information that the enemy doesn't like and he just tries to crash course your mind with mental health issues and Say, Megan, I don't. Why are you even doing this? Nobody looks up to you. Nobody wants to shut down the Patreon community. What do you do? You got to go get that. How?
- [40:45]
A
You know what the devil be telling me?
- [40:46]
B
You know what I'm saying? Guess what? You need to go get that shield and that helmet. Why? Because you know your purpose. You're a warrior. And you can't let the devil run wild and you. So you got to now. Oh, I'm his. I've been saved by grace through faith. Not as works as a gift of God that nobody should boast. Then you put up your shield. He will shoot fiery darts at you. And I like the, you know, everybody, you know probably heard it on spiritual warfare, but they would soak their shields in water so that when a fiery dart came, when it hit, it would extinguish it immediately without you being hit. And so the question is, how do you get in front of that in understanding your purpose? You know that God is going to be doing some big things. So guess what you do. You don't sit on your behind. Guess what you do. You start fasting. You start getting scriptures around.
- [41:34]
A
Yeah. Get ahead of you.
- [41:34]
B
You get in prayer, in other words. Because when you know your purpose, it just, it, it, it gives your assignment meaning. It just does.
- [41:44]
A
That's. Oh, that just reminds me. It literally, it, it just reminds me of how. And I've talked about this before, but how my mother would tell me when I would have my kids, I had a C sections for all three of my kids. And she would tell me, you know, cause I was really weird about taking pain medicine. And I would wait until the last minute so I would be in pain and then try to take the pain medicine. And it would take longer. So I'm in pain longer because I waited the last minute to take the medicine. So my mom would say, megan, you gotta get ahead of it. So you're supposed to take it every six hours. Get ahead of it. So that way when you're a teacher.
- [42:23]
B
You know that, right? Good God.
- [42:25]
A
So that way, when the pain get ahead of it. So that way when, when the pain comes, the medicine is already activated in your body, so you're not in pain worse than what you would have been you got. And so I feel like what you're saying is the same thing. It's like I know that the Lord has a purpose for me.
- [42:47]
B
That's right.
- [42:47]
A
I know what the purpose is. And so whatever my assignment is, I'm going to get ahead of the Enemy's attacks. I'm going to, I'm gonna do my spiritual disciplines like you said. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fast and pray. Like when we, when we do like for Acts 2:42, I feel like I could have got ahead of it a little faster than I did. I wasn't really aware of the spiritual warfare, but now it has given me a framework so that when I go do ministry, I, I, I'm different before, I prepare differently now.
- [43:16]
B
That's right.
- [43:16]
A
I just do. I don't like podcast days. I am spiritually attacked podcast days. And it used to be a lot worse, but now I know how to get ahead of it. I'm consecrating differently the week before, I'm praying differently the week. You know what I'm saying? I'm just, I get ahead of it and I think that's what the Christian has to do in their purpose.
- [43:36]
B
Yeah, you making me about to pull this up, but I did a, I did a, I'm doing, I'm taking a, I was taking the church before sabbatical through First John and I'm finishing in autumn and I don't know why, that's.
- [43:53]
A
How you know you a speaker. You said autumn, you ain't say fall.
- [43:55]
B
I know I'm finishing an autumn cuz that's for my people in London. Cuz one time I said, man, I just love the fall. It was like, oh my goodness, you love the fall. Why would you love Genesis 3 when God said no, oh, autumn. So I know I gotta, I gotta, you know, say it different. And I did this thing, the Holy Spirit just took me, I thought it was on a rabbit trail and I looked at, he said, I want you to look at second Timothy, I mean 2 Corinthians 2, 11. And I want you to look at Ephesians 6, 9, 10. It said we are not ignorant of the enemy's devices. And then he said, now ask me what are his devices? And then I went through, and part of it, I went through my Logos and I went to ChatGPT and I had to correct some stuff because you can't trust Chat J. You better do your homework because sometime.
- [44:48]
A
It just take you somewhere else.
- [44:51]
B
And I just was one of them is deception is one of his devices. And so I was just going through all this stuff. But I think that we as believers, when you know your purpose, you know what Satan's purpose is. His fundamental purpose is to restrict the movement of God's kingdom. And when you know, but your purpose is to press it forward. But you already know you got some keys, jing a ling a ling that can unlock any gate that he tries to barricade you away from what God wants you to do. And so in understanding purpose and dreaming, we have to get. We have to get purpose out of the weeds of our self centeredness.
- [45:31]
A
Got it.
- [45:32]
B
That's really the key to it. Once we understand that we are a part. I did this series for my church called God the Story Changer. You have the meta narrative, they have your micro narrative. The question is, how does your micro narrative connect to that meta narrative of God?
- [45:52]
A
That's good.
- [45:52]
B
And when you understand that, it just makes things different.
- [45:55]
A
So, man, there's so much I could ask you about this because there's just. I have so much that I didn't even touch that I wanted to ask. But you, you've written. I feel like the books that people know you for just off RIP Urban Apologetics, Woke Church. Like people know you for those books, but you've written several. Like you said, this is your ninth book. What makes rebranding the church different from the other books that you have written? Or is there some sort of like harmony with this book and the rest of your books?
- [46:27]
B
That's a good question. Outside of my commentaries that I've written. You know, Manhood Restored was a niche book for men, even though a lot of women, maybe, I think more women bought it than men.
- [46:38]
A
Dang.
- [46:39]
B
To give away to men and to read for themselves. To be honest, Unleashed was more of a book on a theological, symphonic book on sanctification. You know, Unleashed was kind of like a micro book on discipleship. You know, Woke Church was a niche book for the church to deal with the racial injustice and how the church should respond. You know, Urban Apologetics was niche in the sense of defending the faith to particularly issues that black and brown people deal with. I think this is the broadest stroke of a book in a good way that I've written because it's global and so it's more global even though other ones have reached other continents. Manhood Restored was translated into another language, but I think this one is probably the most important book because it's a last days book. I think it's like a manual for the last days in being a man because our image has to be restored in order that we can have the right and we can earn the right to share the gospel. Colossians, chapter 4, verses 2 through 6. He said, I pray that you may open up the door for the word. Say, pray for me. That and then he said, act with wisdom towards outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your words season, as it were, with salt, as it were, with grace, so that you can know how to respond to each person. There's an earning of common ground that has been lost. And so now we have to re earn that common ground so that the Holy Spirit can make opportunities where one plants, one waters and one adds to growth.
- [48:12]
A
That's good.
- [48:12]
B
But then also for the church itself, I think in the church, before we can rebrand it to other people, we need to get back in our orientation. And what's that orientation for? The orientation when you first become a part of a company is you learn the product, you learn the policies and procedures, you learn how you're supposed to represent the company, and you learn the functionality of your role in the broader vision of that company. We have to do a more strategic job in bringing people into the faith and preparing them well. The world prepares people to better represent their products that will rust and that moth can eat. Then we prepare for an eternal product. So how much more should we be orienting our people to the ways of God in all of these different ways? And so I'm just excited about it and I hope it just helps a ton of people and it helps. One of the things I just want to do before I pass and even post. I want the kingdom to be further forward in my epoch. That's what every believer should want. We should want the kingdom to be better moved forward and more ground taken because of our existence on this planet than before it. If that happens, I die great death.
- [49:36]
A
That's good. So we always do. Okay, when is the book coming out? September 30th. So this week, September 30th, what? I always do a journal prompt at the end of every episode, or at least I try to. Sometimes I'd be forgetting, but yeah, what would be a good to just digest process. Because we said a lot. What would be a good way to process this through a journal prompt? Like, what's. What's a good. Yeah. What's a good journal prompt that can give them to process what it looks like to rebrand? Because I feel like what you're basically saying is rebranding the church, rebranding Christianity, basically. So how can. How can we process. Or how can our audience process this?
- [50:24]
B
Yeah, this whole pod. That's a really good question. My question to everybody into myself is how do I view my relationship with the faith? This is so important because I get the most amens in my sermons from stuff that ministers to people, but I get very few amens on the stuff that needs to be ministered out of people. And what do I mean by that? I get the amens on what people are dealing with and that God wants to give you a breakthrough, they gonna respond to that. Right. If it had not been for the God of heaven keeping me in my right mind, everybody gonna stand up. And I know the triggers, the preaching triggers, but if I say, man, many of us have a mission field around us, oh, God, you ain't gonna hear nobody say nothing. My thing is, devotionally for you, I think we've mastered being inwardly focused, but I think we've done a poor job of being outwardly and upwardly focused. And so I'm praying that we would be more self aware of the church so that we're not just reiterating people's resistance towards us as representatives, but we play a role in being stock managers for the kingdom.
- [51:52]
A
That's good.
- [51:53]
B
That's really what I. That's, that's. That's what I just want to say. Yeah.
- [51:56]
A
Thank you, Dr. Mason.
- [51:57]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [51:59]
A
Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for coming back, but also just thank you for your work. Thank you personally for just being available to me as I try to navigate through what I feel like the Lord has called me to do in this position that I am. And just like being wise, counsel and helpful, like, I don't take that for granted. And I just thank you for that. Even like just being like a. Just a godly example of manhood. I haven't had that always in my life. And you just have been. Yeah, like, even just when I was reflecting about this this morning, just thinking about Acts 2, 42 and how scared I was.
- [52:42]
B
Yeah.
- [52:43]
A
And I didn't. I mean, like, you knew I was nervous, but like, I didn't express as much how nervous I really was. But like, you saw it and you observed it and you prayed for me. And like that embrace just meant I really feel like if you did not pray for me in that moment, I don't know if I would have went on that stage. I was that scared. But just thank you for being. Yeah. For just being helpful, being a discipler, being a man of God, being a good shepherd, like all that. Just thank you. Thank you for all of that. I just really appreciate you and I don't think I've said that enough privately or publicly. So I just wanted to thank you for that.
- [53:24]
B
I just want to appreciate you for properly stewarding what God has given you and always that being at the forefront, that is a. That is a gift to have. I pray that you never lose it. I pray that my prayer for you is that the enemy will not have place in your mind for your mind. I want him to see your mind as a battlefield, not a playground. And I just pray that the Lord will guard your heart and mind and that you would feel the wind consistently under your wings as he takes you further. And using the influence. I want to say this. God detoured you for a reason.
- [54:12]
A
Yeah.
- [54:14]
B
Some of your most hurt moments were detours that you didn't understand. And God is going to listen. I promise you. I believe with all my heart. Every one of those detours and moments of pain were God resetting and resetting your trajectory. I do this illustration on brokenness, and I'm done. Brokenness is living in a constant state of God neediness. I had a friend, the Bible says God is near to the brokenhearted, those who are crushed in spirit. I had a friend who ran a fortu. He got hit in practice, snapped it clean. And when he went to the doctor, he said, will I be able to run again? He said, oh, he said this. He said, son, this was a good break. He said, a good break? How is this a good break? He said, it didn't really shatter. It just was a clean break. And so when I put this back together and when I reconstruct this area, put the screws in, he said, it's going to reinforce itself, it's going to heal, but it's also going to reinforce itself with more bone. And it's going to be harder to break this spot ever again because it's already been broken.
- [55:28]
A
Wow.
- [55:29]
B
And so I just want to say that to you. I just pray that you would see every break that God. Cause he ain't finished. But see every breakage as God reinforcing areas of your life that need strength for the mountains you gotta climb, the journeys you gotta cross, the deserts you gotta cross, and all the things. So that's it.
- [55:54]
A
Thank you. I appreciate you. I love you. I appreciate you.
- [55:57]
B
Love you, love you, love you.
- [55:57]
A
My wife and I love Ms. Yvette. She knows I love her. And tell her I love her when you see her.
- [56:02]
B
Absolutely.
- [56:03]
A
Make sure you guys grab rebranding the church. Dr. Mason's books are on my Amazon storefront. I think most of them are on there. By the time you see this, all of them will be on there. So make sure you grab this book. Grab it not just for you, but grab it for your small group. Your. Your. If you have a discipleship group, grab it for whoever, a friend a whoever and and read it and process it. And yeah, we appreciate you guys. We love you. We'll see you next week. What's up you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow into Tality Podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow into Tality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.