EP 91: Choosing Grace Over Division

Summary

Podcast Summary: In Totality with Megan Ashley

EP 91: Choosing Grace Over Division (October 7, 2025)

Main Theme / Purpose
Episode 91 tackles Christian response to contentious cultural events—specifically the reaction to Charlie Kirk’s death—by examining how believers can choose grace, curiosity, and self-reflection over division and reactionary hot-takes. Host Megan Ashley and guest Justin Gibney explore the responsibilities of public Christian witness, navigating grief, the pitfalls of culture wars within the church, and how to hold tension between truth, grace, and justice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Reflections & Framing the Conversation

• Megan emphasizes vulnerability and aims for curiosity over criticism in discussing Charlie Kirk’s death ([03:10]).
  • Quote: “This episode is about being curious, not critical, and about what God is doing in us, in our own hearts first, and how we can love one another and show each other grace even when we don't agree.” — Megan Ashley ([03:30])

2. Initial Reactions to Charlie Kirk’s Death

• Megan confesses desensitization and struggles with feeling “proper” grief because of a lack of personal connection and cultural desensitization to violence ([07:21–10:21]).

  • She shares experiencing backlash for expressing grief online, illustrating societal polarization.
  • Quote: “Even the grief of something that should be clearly grieved needs nuance.” — Megan Ashley ([10:00])

• Justin reflects that lack of feeling is normal if there’s no direct connection but emphasizes the biblical principle of mourning with those who mourn, regardless of personal attachment ([11:19–13:27]).

  • Quote: “The Bible talks about mourning with those who are mourning... It doesn't ask all those questions that some people probably were mad at you for not asking.” — Justin Gibney ([12:15])

3. Navigating When and How to Disagree

• They discuss the appropriateness and timing of public critique versus simply grieving in the moment. Justin stresses that the priority immediately after tragedy should be to affirm the loss as wrong ([15:27–17:45]).

  • Quote: “That conversation shouldn’t take priority over, ‘This is really bad, and this shouldn’t have happened.’ ... We can’t rush to the ‘but’ so quickly.” — Justin Gibney ([15:30])

• They critique leaders and influencers who exploit the moment to “score points,” emphasizing that Christian response must bear witness to the grace of Christ, not just win arguments ([18:45–20:00]).

4. Christians in the Culture War: Division, Identity, and Witness

• Justin explains the culture war as being primarily between white conservatives and white progressives, with black Christians and other groups often forced to pick sides that don’t fully represent them ([29:32–32:26]).

  • Quote: “The battle at the base of it is a culture war. ... Now, black people were never a principle of that war. We were impacted by it, but we weren’t the main ones arguing.” — Justin Gibney ([29:32])

• Discussion on identity idolatry, where nationalism (especially in white evangelical circles) or blackness (in black church contexts) can overshadow Christian identity ([48:14–52:35]).

  • Quote: “When we take our national identity or our racial identity and that becomes the center of who we are... that’s where we are in this moment.” — Justin Gibney ([48:14])

• Both agree on the importance of grounding identity in Christ while valuing the distinctiveness God gives in ethnicity or culture.

5. Responding to Offense and Injustice

• On responding to offense (e.g., Trump’s and Kirk’s rhetoric), Justin stresses not allowing adversaries to shape one’s spirit or method. The civil rights movement is invoked as a model for moral authority and restraint ([24:40–28:22]).
  • Quote: “You could win the argument... if you lost your spirit, if you now have a bitter and negative spirit, you lost too much. You didn't win anything.” — Justin Gibney ([26:44])

6. The Importance of Self-Examination and Humility

• Megan mourns the lack of Christian leaders’ public self-examination in these moments, wanting more transparency about how God is exposing their own hearts ([53:26–56:27]).
  • Quote: “Stop trying to tell me what I need to be doing and show me what's happening in you. ... What is God doing in you?” — Megan Ashley ([53:57])
• Justin asserts that self-examination is a spiritual discipline that’s now culturally discouraged, but essential for authentic witness ([55:17–56:32]).

7. Learning from History and Christian Tradition

• The approach of Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights church is contrasted with today’s activism, emphasizing strategic patience and artful speech over venting ([34:12–36:12]).
  • Quote: “Dr. King had the same passion... but he did the harder thing. He sat down, he prayed, and he found a way to express himself artfully... It takes patience. And you have to wait on God to get that to you.” — Justin Gibney ([34:36])

8. Practical Next Steps and Application for Believers

• Prayer, Scripture, and prioritizing the vulnerable are constants when responding to crisis ([61:16–64:25]).
• Christians must be unafraid to take time and not rush to public opinion; responding artfully and faithfully trumps urgency or “score-keeping” ([38:13–39:43]).
• Actively engaging in societal needs (e.g., child literacy, immigration, and honest reckoning with history) is encouraged over just “winning debates” ([66:31–68:46]).
  • Quote: “We can’t sit here, argue on social media while the kid next door can’t read. ... I might not say everything somebody wants me to say in social media. I’m helping this kid. That’s a ministry that matters.” — Justin Gibney ([67:36])

9. Resources & Political Engagement

• Justin’s suggestions:
  • Podcast: Church Politics Podcast (And Campaign) ([69:20])
  • Media: Breaking Points (multiview news coverage)
  • “Don’t Let Nobody Turn You Around” — Justin’s forthcoming book on Black church witness and the culture war ([58:47–65:07])

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Christian Witness:
  “When people see how we reacted to this, are they saying, ‘Man, this Jesus guy must have been something different... that reaction in this moment.’” — Justin Gibney, ([64:42])

• On Grief & Nuance:
  “Even the grief of something that should be clearly grieved needs nuance.” — Megan Ashley, ([10:00])

• On Moral Authority:
  “When you respond in the right way to tragedy, even when you don't want to, it gives you a moral authority. ... We tend to think that the principles that we learned in those early years, in these moments, somehow there’s an exception. ... No, the principles in these moments, there's no exception to them. That’s when they matter the most.” — Justin Gibney, ([45:12–46:35])

• On Identity & Race:
  “I don't have to say, ‘Oh, Christian nationalism is great, don't talk about the history of slavery and Jim Crow.’ ... How do I do it? And do I do it in a way ... that doesn’t leave behind my Christian convictions that everybody is redeemable...?” — Justin Gibney, ([30:58–31:16])

• On Self-Examination:
  “In our culture, self-examination... is actually discouraged because if I publicly examine myself or examine my group, I’m hurting us in the eyes of others.” — Justin Gibney, ([55:17–56:27])

• On the Importance of Patience:
  “You have time to be faithful. Yeah, you gotta take the time to be faithful.” — Justin Gibney, ([39:39])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Framing the Episode & Opening Prayer — [00:44–04:53]
• Initial Reactions to Charlie Kirk’s Death — [07:21–13:27]
• Should Christians Critique the Deceased Immediately? — [15:27–18:45]
• Leaders’ Right & Harmful Responses — [18:45–20:00]
• Culture Wars & Race — [29:32–32:26]
• Idolatry of Identity in Church — [48:14–53:26]
• Importance of Self-Examination — [53:26–56:27]
• Civil Rights Model vs. Today’s Activism — [34:12–36:12]
• Justin’s Book Information — [58:47–65:07]
• Practical Engagement: Literacy & Immigration — [66:31–68:46]
• Resources for Balanced Political Engagment — [69:20]

---

Closing Encouragement

• Megan and Justin urge listeners to respond to societal flashpoints with prayer, patience, and grace, remembering the importance of Christian witness over cultural “victory.”
• Listeners are challenged to examine their hearts, prioritize unity and dignity, and move beyond tribal allegiances, engaging instead with compassion and thoughtful engagement rooted in Christ.
• Call to Action: Review Erica Kirk’s speech for an example of radical forgiveness, and inventory your own reaction to “the other side” ([71:01–72:11]).

---

Tone: Honest, reflective, challenging, and practical—with frequent Scriptural grounding and an invitational posture toward the listener.

---

For more, check out:

• “Don’t Let Nobody Turn You Around” by Justin Gibney (releases Nov 4, 2025)
• The Church Politics Podcast (And Campaign)
• Breaking Points (YouTube)
• Engage local community through practical service, especially where children and vulnerable neighbors are concerned ([66:31–68:46]).

---

Summary Prepared For:
Those seeking a spiritually-mature lens on the intersection of faith, politics, and public grief—especially in moments when society is deeply divided. This episode is a call to higher Christian ground rooted in truth, dignity, and radical grace.

Transcript

[Audible Narrator]

Audible's Romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you when it comes to what kind of romance you're into. You don't have to choose just one fancy a dalliance with a duke or maybe a steamy billionaire. You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field. And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm. Discover modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest Romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros, plus Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander, and of course, all the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery what's up fam?

[Megan Ashley]

Listen, if you've been blessed by In Totality the podcast, then I want to personally invite you to go deeper by joining our Patreon community called the Village. Every Tuesday morning, the Village members get early access to the full episode of the podcast two two days before it drops publicly on YouTube. So while everyone else is waiting, you're already soaking it in. But that's just the beginning. As a Village member, you get exclusive access to the In Totality docu series. It's a behind the scenes look at how I walk on my faith in real life. No filters, no fluff, just real moments of me trusting the Lord, processing life and growing in truth. We also do live book club club zoom calls where we read and grow together in the Word. I'm not just talking at you worth walking through it together, asking questions, wrestling through scriptures, learning to follow Christ more fully. You know, like that Romans 12. You'll also get bonus content, extra conversations with podcast guests that go even deeper, plus moments that didn't make it to the episode but were just too good not to share. And one more thing. When you join the Village, you get first access to merch before drops public. So if you love the message and you want to rep the movement, you'll get first dibs every time. But more than the content, the Village is about community. It's a safe place for believers to connect and grow and be reminded that you're not doing this walk alone. You're a part of something real. We're building something special and we would love for you to be a part. So hit pause, go to www.patreon.com meganashley and join today and I'll meet Hey everyone. Welcome back to Another episode of In Totality. Listen. Before we get started with today's conversation with my guest Justin Gibney, I wanted to speak directly to you about all that we are getting ready to dive into with this episode. We're going to be talking about something that's really sensitive and that have stirred up a lot of strong opinions and strong emotions. The passing of Charlie Kirk and the reactions that followed. Normally, you guys know we don't really dive into pop culture or hot button news topics here, but I did feel led to lean in to vulnerability and transparency. I'm not approaching this as an expert or who has all the right answers, because I don't. I'm simply coming to you as someone who wants to follow the Lord and be curious and do what is pleasing to Him. I know this topic is heavy and there are many layers to it. And as I was thinking through this conversation, I was reminded of Psalms 86 where it says, teach me your way, O Lord, that I may walk in your truth. Give me an undivided heart that I may fear your name. And that's all that I really wanna do in this conversation. I want us to lean in and have a heart that's undivided in fearing the Lord and loving him. When there's so much opportunity for us to be divided amongst each other, I want our main focus to be on him. I've had to confront some things in my own heart around my initial reactions, and I want to share that with you guys with transparency and vulnerability. This episode is about being curious, not critical, and about what God is doing in us, in our own hearts first, and how we can love one another and show each other grace even when we don't agree. I don't expect to get everything right in this conversation or cover all the nuance, but my prayer is that we can lead with humility and have a heart that glorifies the Lord. So as we step into this conversation together, let's do it with curiosity, let's do it with grace, let's do it with compassion, and let's do it with a commitment to keep Christ at the center of all of it. I love you guys and I hope the Lord meets you in this episode. I'm gonna just confess some things, maybe that I even feel like maybe I did wrong.

[Justin Gibney]

I don't recall Christ spending most of his time trying to show how his people were the most right in this situation. That's not how God works. Yeah, if you're wrong, you're wrong.

[Megan Ashley]

What are we fighting about right now? Because I don't even know anymore. I'm like, is it race? Is it religion? Is it policy?

[Justin Gibney]

That's a thing.

[Megan Ashley]

Let's stop shying away from that. That is a thing. That is a thing, period.

[Justin Gibney]

When people see how we reacted to this, all they're saying, man, this Jesus guy must have been something different, because that reaction in this moment.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Foreign. What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I am your host, Megan Ashley, and I am. I don't know if the word excited is the word to have this conversation, but I am extremely grateful to have a guest here today that is going to help us navigate through just a hard conversation. We have experienced just a lot of tension in the last few weeks with the death of Charlie Kirk, and there is really only one voice that I would trust to bring onto this platform to really talk through all the things that we are experiencing. And he's been here before and he's back. So welcome. Justin Gibney.

[Justin Gibney]

Thanks for having me.

[Megan Ashley]

Hey, how are you?

[Justin Gibney]

I'm good. I'm glad to be here.

[Megan Ashley]

I'm sorry that it's on these type of circumstances, but I just. I literally, with all the things that are going on, like, you were literally the only person that I've felt that I can navigate this conversation with. Because I really don't know what to say. If I'm just being honest, I just don't know what to say. I have lots of feelings, I have lots of opinions, but I do recognize that I have to be responsible with my platform. And just because I have access to a mic and a camera doesn't mean that it is my job to just say whatever I feel and think without taking time to process. Pray and. And, you know, get wisdom from people who know more than me. So I'm really just here to get help. You're here to help me.

[Justin Gibney]

I hear where you're coming from. I think your reputation precedes you. So you've never been afraid to say what needs to be said. But I think it shows wisdom to say, let me step back and not just say something because somebody expects me to.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah, that's good.

[Megan Ashley]

So I want to start with that day. And I'm going to. I'm going to just confess some things, maybe that I even feel like maybe I did wrong. Because when I'm just. I'm just. I want to start preference all of this conversation with, I'm being honest and vulnerable and transparent. I don't have the answers to what is right. And what is wrong? Which is why I'm asking Justin here to help. But the day that it was announced that Charlie Kirk was shocked, I didn't. I didn't. I knew his face, but I didn't know. I really don't know Charlie Kirk. I didn't know anything really about him. I know I've seen, obviously through social media, you see stuff come up here and there, but I didn't know much about him. And unfortunately, hearing that someone got shot, it was kind of like, oh, man, somebody got shot. But I think we're so used to violence in our nation and that it were desensitized to it a little bit. And so I kind of just was like, oh, man, that sucks. But I didn't really have, like, an extreme reaction, but there were a lot of people that had very, you know, strong reaction. So it made me think, like, who is this guy? Like, why is this such a. You know, why. Why is there such a reaction to it? And. And then a couple hours later, it. He was pronounced dead that. That he didn't make it after the shot. And I don't know if I had a reaction to that. And truthfully, I've had to wrestle with the fact that I don't know if I didn't have, like, an immediate reaction. It kind of just was like, oh, dang. But I think again, because we are so desensitized, I think that that's a problem that I had to even wrestle with the Lord about. Like, man, I should actually be, like, more aggrieved. And so I wrestle with that for a few. Hearing that he had passed away, I wrestled with the fact that, like, Lord, I feel like I should have a bigger reaction because a life was taken, and so we should care about that. Right? And so I put on. After seeing. After a few hours seeing reactions or whatever, I had put on threads that at the end. Because this was at the end of the day, at the end of the night, after just praying and processing and wrestling with how I was feeling and reacting, I was. I landed just on grief. That's where I landed. Like, I felt. I felt bad that a life was unjustly taken in all the things. And I landed on grief. And so I put on threads. Like, as Christians, I felt like we should be grieved when we see something like that. And too, we saw it. And I thought that that was, like, graphic and scary and all the things. And I got. I mean, bombarded with hate on threads because I said we should grieve. I was called stupid. I was called dumb. I mean, I was called all types of names. People were cussing me. It was just crazy.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And so I felt like. Well, did I. Did I put that on threads? Because I felt like I needed to say something. I did feel that way. That was genuinely my heart. Like, I actually felt grieved. But there was such a big reaction to it that I felt like maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Maybe I should have pulled back. And then I realized that we're living in a time where even the grief of something that should be clearly grieved needs nuance. And so tell me about what you experienced in that first kind of 24, 48 hours after Charlie Kirk was pronounced dead.

[Interjecting Supporter]

What.

[Megan Ashley]

What were you seeing? What were you experiencing? And what should we have. What reaction should we have had as Christians? Because that's who I'm talking to. I just want to be clear. Like, we're talking, like, as I'm coming from a Christian perspective.

[Justin Gibney]

So I was on a flight. I was actually just leaving a conversation about racial unity from in St. Louis. I'm on a flight in between naps, and I'm going over X, and I'm like, somebody shot? It's Charlie Kirk. Then he got shot. Then I actually see it happen. Not purposely, but I'm just looking through everything.

[Interjecting Supporter]

I'm like, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And so the first. It's always a shock. Right. Because I had been following him for a while because I do politics. I had a lot of disagreements, but he did politics, too. So I'm gonna follow you to see. I have to know what people are thinking. And one of the first things I thought about as I heard that his children, his wife and children and all that stuff was I go out and I talk to people who don't like me either. This could have happened to me. Like, I could not come home. So that's the first thing that I thought about, the shock of, like, he really got shot. What you're saying, though, not feeling anything immediately. Well, you didn't know him.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And so when the Bible talks about mourning with those who are mourning, it doesn't say that you're necessarily mourning too, in the same way. Right. It also doesn't say, based on how you were attacked, about it. Oh, do they deserve. Are they deserving of me to mourn with them? It doesn't ask all those questions. Right. That some people probably were mad at you for not asking. If people are hurt and a tragedy happened, we should mourn even if we don't feel it, Even if We didn't have the same connection. So I think your response was right, and I think that's actually a good response in the moment, rather than making an opinion on who's worthy and how good somebody was and all that stuff in that moment of tragedy. But I was just taken aback, being in a similar job, going to places where you say stuff based on, you know, you say stuff that people just don't like and really offend them. Not meaning to offend them from my point of view, but just disagreements that hit to the heart of who people think they are and all that stuff. So I was really upset and like, man, this is not because. And again, not because I had a super connection with him. I didn't know him, not because I agreed with him, but a related experience made it a little more real to.

[Megan Ashley]

Me, especially for you in your position, like you said, because you go out and you talk to people who don't agree with you.

[Justin Gibney]

Exactly.

[Megan Ashley]

And that could happen to anybody. You know, it really could happen to anybody. I find it interesting that you said that there was a lot of things that you didn't agree with Charlie Kirk. And so what I'm. What I am curious about is this. Is it too soon to even get into what we disagree with him about because of his. Because obviously that's what's coming up, Right. People are having a strong reaction because the people who have seen his clips, obviously he said things that were kind of. That were offensive. He's even in the tone in which some things were said were just offensive. Right. And. But I also know, being in this space, that clips are part of our jobs. Right. That's part of what we do. We give you a clip and it is to entice you to watch the full thing. Right. But we also know the reality is everybody doesn't watch the full context of what you're talking about in a clip.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

And so I have been trying my best to do my due diligence of seeing something that he said that might have been offensive, but then trying to find the full context of what he was saying. And there are some things where I'm like, okay, well, in full context, maybe that wasn't. Maybe the clip wasn't an accurate depiction of everything that he was saying. And then there's some stuff I was like, nope, I just landed on. I'm offended. I just landed on. That didn't feel good, what he said. But what I am interested in is that because of his presence in social media, his presence in politics, his presence in just Social media, all the things. Is it appropriate to kind of dissect all of those things right now? Does it matter? Like, should we be diving into what he said and what he didn't say and the like? Does that. When is it too soon or not too soon to talk about that?

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, I think that's a conversation that needs to be had.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay.

[Justin Gibney]

It's an important conversation for Christians. That's who we're talking to. That conversation shouldn't take priority over. This is really bad, and this shouldn't have happened. And one of the issues that I've taken and maybe even lost some friends for taking this position is we can't rush to the. But so quickly. So we got to say this was a tragedy. This shouldn't have happened, and sit in that so that we get that principle so that nobody that follows me. I don't want anybody that follows me to think that it's ever okay for somebody to die for their opinions.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So I got. I have to sit in that this was terribly wrong. Once we've said that and once we've really dealt with that, I think then we can go into the disagreements. But what I want to tell people is in this moment, when people are grieving, whether you think they're right or wrong, for how they're treating him, if you go in that trying to win an argument and trying to score points for your culture or your race, you're going to lose just because in the big picture. Because that's not what. I don't think that's what Christ is asking us to do. It's not about winning the argument. It's not about me proving he was a racist in this moment, it's about me saying, what does grace look like to somebody and to a family and two groups that I disagree with in this moment, because people are going to be looking at me and they're going to say, okay, how you react in this type of moment tells me about Christian character and who Christ is.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Wow.

[Justin Gibney]

So do I really believe. What issues do I think Christ would pick up immediately? The Christ that went to Matthew, who was a tax collector and said, come with me. The tax. The Christ that went to zealots and said, come with me. What issue do we think he would be highlighting immediately after this happened? Sadly, I think there's a lot of Christian leaders who have highlighted the wrong things because we're worried about scoring points or proving a point more than showing the grace of Christ. Those other conversations are important. They're not insignificant. Some of the things he said, are very significant. What should be highlighted in this moment, that's what's gonna provide moral clarity. And so, yeah, it needs to happen, but make sure that we take away the true point, the true. The most important thing right now.

[Megan Ashley]

And so when you say we need to sit in, what happened was wrong, it was a tragedy, and it shouldn't have happened. How. How long, I guess, do we sit in that? Because we. What I saw, at least, is I saw a lot of people not sit with any of that. I saw a lot of just immediate opinions, immediate reactions and all of that. And I specifically want to know, for the Christian believer that had. Influencer, that has any type of influence, whether it's pastor, whatever, if you have any type of presence in leadership and influence in. In. In culture and social media, what were some of the responses? And you don't have to say specifically who, but what were some of the responses that you saw that were right? And then what were some of the responses that were. Were damaging or harmful from both sides? Because I thought. I think we saw good things and bad things on both sides.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, no, that's right. That's right. I think some of the responses that were right were the ones that said, man, some of the things that he said were hurtful. He should not have died. Let's all mourn for his family and for this nation, because this is a sign of where we're going. So the ones that said, hey, we can put aside all the other stuff, I can mention it, but it's not the main point. How do we make sure this doesn't happen again and that nobody feels like this is acceptable? Yeah, that's full stop right there. The ones that I thought were damaging, which happened to be the ones that went most viral, probably were. Were. Yeah, that probably shouldn't have happened. However, let me go viral with this sermon where I'm talking about, I'm questioning the salvation, I'm doing all this other stuff. And it's like, well, is that edifying the people you talking to, or is that just going viral? Like, is that what they need to hear in this moment? Most of whom probably didn't agree with them.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

What do they need to hear to be more Christ? Like, and I don't recall Christ spending most of his time trying to show how his people were the most right in this situation.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Whoever. Whatever group he was talking to, he was edifying, challenging that group to do better.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So you got to think of your audience, like, who is my audience and what does my audience need to hear. Not to feel victorious, not to make sure that everybody knows how bad the other side is, but to be more Christlike, to have a better testimony as they go out and speak to others and relate to others.

[Megan Ashley]

How do you find what is the balance? Because I feel like we live in such an extreme culture and society where you're either this or you're that. And it's so hard, I feel like, to find tension in the balance of the things. And so I guess I'm just curious on how. What is the most effective way to. Because again, I didn't agree with a lot of things that Charlie said. Do you know what I'm saying? So how can we have that conversation about things that we disagree on, but still having a Christ foundation, leading people back to Christ, do you know what I'm saying? Where we're not getting so caught up in all the little nuances of the thing, you know what I'm saying? Because I think we can pick people. He was. Because I also trying to be logical. He started off being on social media as young as what, like 18? I think he was really young. And he was 31 when he passed. And so I feel like that's some years young. I mean, that he's still young. You know what I mean? And most of your debates, most of your arguments, most of your conversations being filmed, you're bound to say things that are wrong, get it wrong, all the things. And so there's a part of me that wants to hold grace for mistakes, but. So how can we find the tension or the balance between. Yeah, I guess giving grace and then calling out things that are just fundamentally wrong.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. When the time comes to call out the things that were wrong, which, again, I'm not pushing that away or saying it's insignificant. We have to be able to do that clearly, but without losing the compassion. It can't just be about winning the argument. I think our posture has to be. Here's how I. Here's what I saw, here's what was wrong. I want you to understand I'm not just screaming at you so you feel like I'm proving you're a terrible person right now. We can do that, and that's what we always do. And that's why nobody on the other side listens to nothing we have to say. So are you saying this to actually convince people and to show how to address real issues so that people, the folks that you're defending, don't get hurt, or are you trying to do what we usually do? Is Just have a temper transom in the public square. Because for some reason, Christians have learned that's authenticity. Authenticity is me telling you off immediately to let you know exactly how I feel. If you can defend that in the gospel. And I know people talk about, well, Jesus turned over tables.

[Megan Ashley]

That's so much deeper.

[Justin Gibney]

I mean, we don't have to get into a whole. The whole exegesis of that. But that's not a whole. That should never be the whole of your personality. Yeah. Like, I have a lot of different feelings about MAGA and Trump and all that, but what I won't do is let my whole public witness be a reaction to them.

[Interjecting Supporter]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

How they react and how they act does not justify what I do or dictate what I do.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's. If once we can talk about it and not. Our point is not just to hurl out insults and to make people feel terrible, then we can do it in a constructive way. Otherwise, the people we want to listen aren't listening.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And we're just preaching to the choir.

[Megan Ashley]

Why do you feel the main. I don't even know how to ask this because I feel like, especially for our people. Right. It's just offensive. There's just things that Trump does. There's things that he says, there's policies. That is just downright offensive. Right. And like you said, it causes a reaction. Right. People just want to respond and react to the offense that they feel. And how can we. How can we do a better job, especially as Christians, not reacting from that place? Because I do think it comes from a place of pain. It comes from a place of our history. All the things like we want to venture. Vindicate ourselves in a way. We want to be vindicated. We want to vindicate ourselves. So how can we do. Yeah, I just. How. How can we navigate that when we have what feels like a president that is against us in a way?

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know, like the whole MAGA thing, like, we can't shy away from the fact that it has. It has very problematic tones to it make America great again. It has problematic tones, and we can't shy away from that. Do you know what I'm saying? And I, And I think that for our other family in Christ who don't look like us, feel. It just feels like that gets ignored. Do you know what I mean? So how can we. How can we unify or. I don't know, how can we navigate through that?

[Justin Gibney]

So the first thing, you're absolutely right. Trump says things that are offensive and that are meant to be offensive and says it so much of it that he's trying to get you off balance and for you to try to be. For you to respond to every single thing he's saying. And then you end up looking out of sorts and crazy because you trying to respond to everything. And we, you know, we follow each other on social media. So, you know, I respond, I'll say something for sure, but he's not gonna set the terms of engagement.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Got it?

[Justin Gibney]

One of the saddest things that's happened is watching Trump change Christians on the right and how they respond and them accepting, talking to people a certain way, talking about, talking about vulnerable people in ways that he does. And them, they justify it. But they're not the only ones who have been changed by Trump by the responses that you got and that I've gotten. He's changed people on the left. And that's the saddest thing for you to say this person is toxic, and then to let that person change how you respond to this. And people can't tell me based on these responses and the vitriol we show and almost the hatred we show to the other side, he's changed you, too. And that's the worst thing that could happen. One of the biggest, and I said this in one of my responses, one of the biggest underlying principles of the civil rights movement is you can never let your opponent have a negative impact on your spirit. You could win the argument. You may prove one day that Charlie Kirk is just as racist as you say he is. Maybe you prove that if you lost your spirit, if you now have a bitter and negative spirit, you lost too much. You didn't win anything.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And to see people, you even have commentators that are on the right, some of them are Christian now they curse more, now they call people names more. Because Trump started that and now they're doing it. You lost.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And so that's the first thing. You don't let someone who you think is getting things wrong set the terms of engagement.

[Interjecting Supporter]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

And so I'm gonna respond, and I'm gonna respond with tenacity and my facts and receipts, whatever I have to have, I'm going to respond thoroughly. But it's going to be in a way that glorifies the Christ that I say I worship.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Got it?

[Justin Gibney]

That's good. Right? That doesn't. If you look at the civil rights movement, which is such a beautiful movement, they're dealing with people just as bad and worse, and they still can address Them without insulting them. They still can win the argument without calling them names. We can do the same thing too.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's the first thing we have to establish. Me being nasty and ugly doesn't help my argument. Me having a public temper tantrum actually is an injustice to the people who I say that I'm trying to help and protect. Because now I'm in a democracy where I need to persuade people. There are people right now who love Charlie Kirk, who, if you sit down with them and talk to them and explain to them. Not everybody, but there are persuadable people who, if we sit down and have a real conversation and get to understand how they saw them, how we saw them, that you might persuade that maybe you do have a point. Maybe I need to see this differently. Right. But we have started to believe that it's good versus evil.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Justin Gibney]

So we're good. Everybody on the other side is evil. Irredeemable. You're not gonna persuade them of anything. There's some people that won't be persuaded. We've got to believe that there are people that can be. And how would we talk to those people if we really want them to hear us? Well, first we gotta hear them.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And be able to approach them in a way that's respectful. But all we do is focus on the worst voices. And that's the first thing I would say. It's really a posture. It's not really even about a strategy and all that. It's a posture towards people and truly loving who you see to be your enemy on a certain issue.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay, So I want to ask you this. This is just a very raw question. Two things. One, is this a battle between races? Like, is what we are experiencing, Is this a race conflict? Is this a policy conflict? Is this a religious. Like, what are we. What is the conflict?

[Justin Gibney]

That's good question.

[Megan Ashley]

And the reason why I'm asking is because I don't even know anymore. I'm like, is it race? Is it religion? Is it policy? Is it. I don't. What are we fighting about right now?

[Justin Gibney]

That's a really insightful question. The battle right now at the base of it is a culture war. And the culture war was always between white progressives and white conservatives on who got to control the values and norms of America. So that's been fought for over 60 years. Like, no America should have these values or that value. Now, black people were never a principle of that war. We were impacted by it, but we weren't the main ones arguing. We didn't have the money, we didn't have the most numbers, we didn't have the most resources and all those things. As time has gone on, the culture war has changed a little bit to where race has gotten really added into that particular culture war. And so what we're talking about now is partially conservative versus progressive, which a lot of black Christians don't fit squarely within either of those. A lot of Christians in general who are trying to be faithful don't fit squarely within either of those. But you also do have. Now they're adding to that that white versus black. Now the white versus black was always there. It wasn't actually part of the culture. It was a separate conversation. It wasn't part of the culture war. That's what the battle is. So yes, it's left versus right, but also it's in a way black versus white within the church, especially on how we see these things. The question is, are we okay with it being like that?

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Justin Gibney]

And how do we address it without conceding things that shouldn't be conceded? So I don't have to say, oh, Christian nationalism is great, don't worry about it. Don't talk about the history of slavery and Jim Crow, don't. No, I have to make points that these things are important. How do I do it?

[Interjecting Supporter]

Got it.

[Justin Gibney]

And do I do it in a way that's that the culture war has always done it, which is by insults and painting the other side as completely evil and me completely good. Or do I go about it a different way? That's still tenacious but doesn't leave behind my Christian convictions that everybody is redeemable, everybody is born, everybody is in Christ, in the image of God. And that I need to be able to have conversations with people and be self sacrificial in that conversation. That's what we want to do. So for me and you, if me and you had issues when he died and we wanted to get that out and I want to say it because I want everybody to know sometimes that's a moment of self sacrifice to say, but it's not the biggest thing right now.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And we don't want to make those self. We don't want to make those sacrifices and carry that cross in the moment. So if anybody takes from this that I'm saying those issues don't matter. Let them think that Christian nationalism is cool and that racism is cool. You're missing completely what I'm saying. It's about how you address it. And I believe based on the civil rights movement that the way I'm saying to address it is actually more effective the other way you get to vent. Yeah, but it's not effective.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

It's not changing the minds of the people who you need to reach.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Because I always believe. And I believe this doesn't mean I have perfected it even in my own life.

[Justin Gibney]

Like, why.

[Megan Ashley]

But how you say things matter. And I think that how you say things and how you approach hard conversations will affect how the other person hears it.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

And so in my mind, I always think, like, I think that we have to ask the Lord for wisdom and strategy when we're having hard conversations and we're approaching hard topics. Right. So I think about. I think about Nathan going to David, where he has to confront him about his sin. There was a strategy in which he did that. He said things in a way where it would provoke a reaction out of. Out of David to show that, like, yeah, that's actually you. So that all that energy that you just had with this, I need you to direct that to your own heart. And so for me, I'm like, how can we have strategic conversations with the opposing sides or wherever side we find ourselves on, which I hate that there is an opposing side, especially for the church, because we should be united. Like Paul talks about, maintain unity. Which doesn't seem like we're doing right now. We're adding on to the division. But how, like, how can we be mindful, or do you feel like that's necessary to be strategic in how we're having these hard conversations? Because it feels like. Because of tone, because of history, because all the things, we're just missing each other. Because I think that. I don't think that everyone is all right. And I don't think that everyone is all wrong either. I think that there is some truth, you know, with. With every side. I don't know.

[Justin Gibney]

But no, this is. This is excellent. Let me tell you. And what I think this hits on is the difference between today's secular activist and Dr. King.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Okay?

[Justin Gibney]

Today's secular activist goes out and says exactly what they want to say, the way they wanted to say it, and vents and has that public temper tantrum I was talking about and walks away and gets patted on the back from their squad like you told them off.

[Megan Ashley]

Whatever.

[Justin Gibney]

Dr. King had that same passion. He had the same understanding of how bad racism was and all that, and the systems that went along with it were. He wasn't oblivious to that, but he did the harder thing. And that's what you're Talking about he sat down, he prayed, and he found a way to express himself artfully in a way that spoke to people, spoke to the people that some people would say would never change. You would be surprised how many people come to me, some in their 70s, and said, I just didn't know. You helped me see it differently. But that doesn't happen without the prayer, without the hard work of saying, how can I say this in a way that takes longer.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah, it takes harder.

[Justin Gibney]

It takes patience. And you have to wait on God to get that to you. Like, that doesn't come. Everything Dr. King said didn't come from flesh. God had to give him that and he had to sit and wait for it.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

That's why these immediate responses aren't going to get it.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Sometimes you have to. That immediate sermon that you got after you watch some video on YouTube or on Instagram, that may not be the Lord speaking to you.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, that might be you.

[Justin Gibney]

That might be you, exactly. Sometimes you got to sit in it and wait for the Lord to give you that word that's going to be more artful and that's going to pierce through sometimes very calloused.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

King did that work. King understood the importance of doing that work. It's work. Me screaming out and saying whatever I wanna say in the moment and just talking about how terrible everybody else is. That's not work. It's not brave.

[Megan Ashley]

It's not effective.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, it's not effective.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

If we think about what the point. If the point is to just get patted on the back and get likes. Maybe. So if the point is to convince people that I actually need on my side, it's counterproductive.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

My. My other question to you is this because we are not patient in learning, getting the information, taking our time, doing our research, reading, studying. I just don't think we have the patience for that anymore. I think everything is quick. Just get. And I'm guilty of it too. Get me the bullet points. I just. I don't want to do all. Just tell me the bullet points. I don't want to do all the research and all this stuff. I think that I struggle with impatience as well. And so do you feel like it is helpful or harmful to say areas in which you would agree with things that maybe Trump might do or maybe Charlie Kirk or maybe somebody on that side, if they do anything good or if they do anything that is right or whatever? Is it harmful to publicly affirm their right decisions because of all of the wrong decisions or maybe of. Because of some of the other things that they have done that is harmful. Is that. Do you know what I'm saying? Because we are living in a time where it's like, oh, if somebody just came across your platform, right, and they saw you on in totality, and then they see, they get on social media and they're like, oh, well, he affirmed something that Trump said in a press conference. So I guess that's fine. Like, I don't have to do any further research. I don't have to think for myself. I don't have to, you know what I'm saying, do my due diligence because I trust Justin, and Justin said that this was fine. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you think that that's harmful or helpful?

[Justin Gibney]

It can be very harmful, which is one of the reasons why I don't just do short form content. Right? Like, that's why we do long, hour long podcasts. That's why I write for Christianity Today, because I want you to see a whole body of work. Because there's no general rule. Don't ever affirm anything. What I can say as a Christian is that we have to love the truth. And so if somebody gets nine out of ten things wrong, I can say those nine things were very wrong. I gotta admit that tenth thing is right. And that's the hard part. Cause when I admit that tenth thing is right, my peers ain't gonna like that.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. Cause you're never. It's all a game. Like, it's all about the scoreboard. Everybody's worried. And this is why people feel like, I can't. There's not enough time left for me to sit in the grief and mourning. Because if I do that, they're gonna win. Yeah, they're gonna get a point. Somebody's gonna really think he was good, and I'm gonna lose. Christians can't be worried about that. We can't prioritize that scoreboard. It's not about just winning in that moment. What's the right thing? And usually they're not gonna win anything if you wait a little bit to gather your thoughts, to pray, and to say it the right way. You see what I'm saying? But we're so caught up. Because social media moves so fast. Because the media moves so fast. We think if I don't get it out now, the world's gonna get this all wrong.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

You have time to be faithful. Yeah, you gotta take the time to be faithful.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Hello.

[Megan Ashley]

You got time to be faithful.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Hello.

[Megan Ashley]

Because I think that we also have to realize that regardless of how you feel and regardless of what that instant reaction is, you will be judged for that, too. You're going to be held accountable to how you reacted, how you responded, the lack of patience that you had to say something like, you know, it doesn't. Even if you're not directly involved in the things. Right. But how you respond, how, like you said, how you're stewarding your witness, it doesn't matter if you have half a million followers or if you have a hundred followers, you still have a witness. And I think that we also have to be mindful that. That the Lord is looking at that and he's judging that, and we have to be mindful of how we respond even to things that we don't agree with. You know what I'm saying? What I do feel like happened, and I don't know if you feel this way, because in a lot of my prayers, when. When. When all of this transpired was, lord, what are you doing? What. What are you. Cause you're doing something. You allowed this to happen. You allowed Trump to be president. You allowed Charlie to be who he is and do that. You've allowed all the things. You're sovereign. You've allowed this all to be what it is. So. So you're doing something in it. And. And I just was wrestling with like, lord, what are you doing? What are you doing? But what I did feel and sense is that what is very clear is that it's showing and revealing the hearts of people and that we are watching the true postures of people's hearts fully on display.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

From idol people, idolizing, whatever, people being desensitized, their lack of love. We're just seeing all of that on full display, which I think, like I said, it was part. That was part of the grief that I was feeling was just, like, broken for, obviously for Charlie's family, for what happened. That was unjust. It wasn't called, like, it was just shouldn't have happened. The fact that his children and his family were there to see, like, all of that broke my heart. But then what it did to me, our nation, like you said, and what it did to the body of Christ, and that was the thing that really just, like, broke my heart is like, what it's doing to us as the body of Christ. It feels like we're just divided as the world.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. And here's the crazy part, and I'd love to hear what you think about this. There's a lot of deep theological things that can be said about this moment. And we all find ways to make the scripture work for us. Right? If we went back, we're raised in the church. If we went back to those early childhood Sunday school lessons, love your neighbor about joy and all those things, what would be our response to this? Do we find something that says your number one priority immediately is to prove to make the best argument of how terrible somebody else is? Or do we find just love your neighbor in the moment and we can deal with all the other? And what. I don't. Again, I don't want people to get the idea that that doesn't matter or that you didn't have a right to feel like this is hurtful how y' all are dealing with this. You don't deal with it like this when it's me.

[Megan Ashley]

Cause that. Cause that is a thing.

[Justin Gibney]

That's a thing.

[Megan Ashley]

Let's stop shying away from that. That is a thing. That is a thing, period. And I don't understand why. And I hate this, because we are supposed to be united in Christ. We're supposed to be like. But. But it does feel like there is a. There is a blind spot. There's some blindness to that. Like, y' all just not seeing how you have a reaction when it look certain way. But then when it's the same, you know, when it's a different person that looks like us, you don't have that reaction. I think, like, why are we not. What is miss. Like, what. What are they missing about that? Because you. You probably have more conversations regarding white evangelical Christians and all the things. But I have to say, for. For me, for the people who watch this podcast, there have been people that have been extremely hurt by leaders who we look up to, leaders that we esteem, leaders that we've learned had a reaction that has been hurtful because you don't have this reaction when somebody that looks like us.

[Justin Gibney]

Well, yeah, let's just talk about it. So when. When. When George Floyd dies, we see people finding reasons not to mourn, finding reasons not to be compassionate. And it's like you're a Christian leader and you're finding you're looking for reasons. You're Googling reasons basically, not to have. Right. Not to have any compassion. Let's talk about. I mean, we can get into it. Let's talk about some of the things that were said from Turning Point USA about black women and talking about a race of people who've always been denigrated and being purposefully offensive and doing it because it's provocative and like you said before it's gonna get clicks and all that. I don't think we have to look past that ever.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

But I do wanna remind us we're upset about it. Cause we know it's wrong.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Are we going to model it? That's the question. The question isn't whether it's wrong or not. Do we feel somehow that we've won something if we respond in kind, if we return insult for insult? So y' all did this. It was wrong, therefore I'm gonna do that.

[Interjecting Supporter]

And it is wrong.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's what I mean about those first principles. If we go back to Sunday school, we in second grade, we in Sunday school. What is that lesson that we learned that Sunday going to teach us about how we have to respond right now? And here's what I'm telling you. See, I think we're so short sighted in these moments. What I'm trying to tell you is when you respond in the right way to tragedy, even when you don't want to, it gives you a moral authority. When that next conversation comes up, up to say, look how, look how we responded. That's the whole civil rights movement. Look how we responded in the worst of situations. And you know what? That spoke to the world. That changed things in countries far away from here because they had so much moral authority. And in the way we're responding to this and trying to do things immediately and trying to lash out and be vengeful, let's be honest, we're losing that moral authority. And when the time comes for people to listen, do you have the credibility that the civil rights generation had? You don't have it if you didn't respond right in that moment. We tend to think that the principles that we learned in those early years, in these moments, somehow there's an exception. We're always looking for an exception. Yeah, I know it says love your neighbor, but he said this and he did that. No, the principles in these moments, there's no exception to them. That's when they matter the most. It don't matter when I can just brush it off and say, who cares?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, that's good.

[Justin Gibney]

It matters when life and death issues. When I'm truly offended and I'm tearful and I see my people being hurt by what you said, that's when my principles matter. And that's when my principles and my public witness speak to other people and show other people who Christ was.

[Interjecting Supporter]

That's good. That's good.

[Megan Ashley]

That's helpful too, because I think that, that. I think I Think the way in which you communicate that. Again, it doesn't. It doesn't take away from what we feel. But. But the responsibility of a Christian is still the responsibility of a Christian. And I think that that. That leads me to my next point of, like, where do we just. Like, period, this is my identity. Do you know what I'm saying? And not to say, like. Like, where does the foundation of our identity come from? Because I feel like we have this tension where we have white evangelical Christians who conflate Christianity with nationalism, and then we also have black Christians who. It's like, I'm black before I'm Christian. So we, like, you know what I'm saying? Where can we. Where does the truth lie in all of that noise? And how can you speak to the black community, our people who prioritize culture, race, whatever, over their Christian values? And the same thing on the other side with our white brothers and sisters who put nationalism over being a Christian? I see both. I see both getting it wrong. So how can we speak truth to both of these?

[Justin Gibney]

That's great. So I just. It's interesting you asked that question, because I just wrote an article in Christianity Today about what I call identity idolatry. When we take our national identity or our racial identity and that becomes the center of who we are. Now, I hope we all know that being black and Christian are not mutually exclusive. So I don't have to say no, I put the blackness completely out of here.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Correct.

[Justin Gibney]

I'm just a Christian, and that's. I get what you're saying, but God recognizes ethnic groups. Right? I mean, when he's talking to the Samaritan woman at the. Well, the story isn't even as powerful as it would be if we don't know that she's Samaritan and that he's going against tradition to show her love and talk to her and go back and forth and ask her for, you.

[Megan Ashley]

Know, like, yeah, for sure.

[Justin Gibney]

That's a big part of it. Over and over again, Jesus uses vulnerable identities to say, this is who I am, and this is how powerful my love is. We don't have to throw those away. What we've done to your point is on the right, we've taken our national identity of America and we said, this is the center of it. Yeah, I'm Christian, too, but this is the center of my identity. Therefore, if anybody says anything bad about America, I can shoot it down. I can ignore the history because that's the core of who I am. Whereas I can say, okay, I'm American. I appreciate I'm American, but because I'm Christian, I have to talk about the history. I have to talk about the flaws of America. I can't act like I can force my Muslim neighbor, whatever, to do what I say he has to do. I'm Christian. That's not how we do this. Right. On the other side, if my blackness becomes the core of my identity, then guess what? There's all kind of things that I can justify based on my culture and act like it's all good. And that's why we stand in the culture today. If we're gonna be honest, nobody wants to correct anybody. Yeah, well, that's authentic. They just being they self. That's part of their culture. So what if it's sinful? It's sinful. It don't matter if it's part of your culture or not.

[Megan Ashley]

Right.

[Justin Gibney]

That's where we are in this moment. Because we're centering the national identity or we're centering the blackness. We don't have to throw those away, but all of those have to come through the gospel. And we have to be able to discern what parts of it are right, what parts of it are wrong and need to be thrown away. How do I look in the mirror and say, I love my culture? We got a lot of stuff we can do better, and if I really love it, I'm going to try to improve it and I can justify it. That's what Jesus did. Right. Even with the woman as well. Samaritan, it's okay. I'm gonna talk to you because you have value.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

But you also have some issues we gotta deal with, don't you?

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Justin Gibney]

But he.

[Megan Ashley]

But he did. But he dignified her.

[Justin Gibney]

He dignified her.

[Megan Ashley]

He dignified her. He did it in a way that was gracious, like even having the conversation with her when nobody was around. He didn't air her dirty laundry out in front of the other disciples. Like he waited until there was a moment with just him and her. And he. And like you said, he identifies. Like she, she's like, what are you doing talking to me? And he's like, you know, I'm. I'm gonna talk to you if you knew who you were talking to. You know, like, he, He. He gives her identity and dignity. And, and, and what I love about what you're saying is, is that we're not trying to take away from the fact that God made you in the uniqueness in which he made you.

[Justin Gibney]

He knew what he was doing.

[Megan Ashley]

He knew what he was doing. Right. And. And. And we're all like. He knew what he was doing by making us black. So I don't want people to take from this conversation or even from my question that I'm saying that you put your culture and your ethnicity away. Like you throw it away. But I am saying that pick up the cross. That's. I guess that's what I'm saying. Like pick up the cross. Like don't. Don't just pick up your culture and your identity and only carry that. But also like carry the cross and be a Christian.

[Justin Gibney]

And we have to be very deliberate in doing that too.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Because the influences on social media and all that every day are pounding you with pride. Because it's okay to look. I'm dignified in my blackness and I know the dignity that comes with that in the history and how much we meant to this country. But when you get into that pride. Right. We created everything. We do everything. We don't do everything. Right. Right. Like we have some stuff. We all do.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's part of. There has to be and embrace. But the humility of understanding we're all broken. That's why I talk about. In my book. I talk a lot about how we have to see the imago DEI in our enemies and the brokenness and sin nature in us. And that's what we don't do in the culture war. We say good versus evil. Right. They're evil. We're good now. We're not good, actually. And we might be right on this particular subject.

[Megan Ashley]

But.

[Justin Gibney]

But if we don't see the brokenness in us. And the civil rights generation did this so well and you can even see it in their songs. Yeah. We're dealing with some sick people that could hang us and treat us all this way. We don't want to be like them. And we could be. And we have sicknesses ourselves. How do we block ourselves and keep maintain the humility not to see ourselves as people that couldn't do wrong either.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I think one thing that I did not see enough of. And when this was happening, I was kind of talking through just as many people as I could. My mom, my friends, family, whatever. Just talking through, trying to. Because my first reaction again isn't to run to social media with something as heavy as this. I don't want to be irresponsible. And so I'm processing with community. I'm processing with the Lord. I'm processing with scripture. I'm processing with the Holy Spirit, all the things.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

And one thing that kept Coming up for me as I was processing was the Lord revealing things in my heart. And what I did not see enough of in, in what was happening was I, I didn't see a lot of leaders telling us what was happening in their heart. Not outside of Brie. But what is the Lord like? What is he showing you about you in this moment? Where are some of the sin that's coming up in your heart because of this moment? Where are some of the idolatry that's coming up in your heart because of this moment? Stop trying to tell me what I need to be doing and show me what's happening in you. Show me. I feel like as a Christian leader, what is God doing in you? What is he provoke? If I'm going to immediately run to social media, it's going to be to tell you what God is immediately provoking out of me in the sense of the areas where I need to confess and repent. And I just did not see, I didn't see enough of that. And, and, and I understand that there has to be a responsibility and even timing on how we process stuff out loud publicly, but I just didn't see enough of like, amen. Like, look, this is terrible. And I, and I'm, and I'm wrestling with some of the stuff that, that the Lord is even showing in me. I didn't see enough of that in our culture.

[Justin Gibney]

Because what you're describing is self examination.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And in our culture, self examination or in group examination is actually discouraged because if I publicly examine myself or examine my group, I'm hurting us in the eyes of others. And we gotta act like we're perfect because we're better than them. Right. So if we expose anything that's wrong with us, then that makes them look better, which it really doesn't. But that's the thinking. And I'm with you. The Bible over and over again talks about self examination before I take, you know what I'm saying? Before I look in your eyes, I gotta look at my own and remove what's in me. And the problems with me. Again, that does not mean there's no critique of others. There is a critique, but I can't in good faith critique others if I can't accept a critique. And how often that's good. Can we look at somebody in another group and see them critique us and say, dang, you're right. Do we ever see our cultural, the custodians of the culture, the cultural influencers, say, man, this dude I don't like said this about Us. They right. No, it's 50 reasons why they're wrong and why they're worse.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So as long as I can. As I can find something that showed me their worst and I'm good.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

That's not how God works.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

If you're wrong, you're wrong.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Period. And I think that I, I guess.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I just wanted to hear your heart on, like, how we can effectively be effective. Like, how can we be effective but still be humble and vulnerable to say, like, look, y'.

[Interjecting Supporter]

All.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I got like, like I said in the beginning, I had to deal with the fact that I don't think I was as grieved as I should have been initially, you know, because of being so desensitized to just the violence that we see on a normal basis or just being like, I don't know, dude. So, you know, I didn't know him, but you know what I mean? Like, I want us to be more mindful, especially as leaders. Like, I just was so disappointed to not to see these immediate reactions on and whatever. And not so much like, how are you wrestling? And how can we teach and help people wrestle through this? Where they are asking questions, where they are being thoughtful when they're doing self examination, where they are asking the Holy Spirit to produce some empathy. And you know what I'm saying? Like, I just did not see that. And that was extremely disappointing.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[Interjecting Supporter]

It.

[Justin Gibney]

It's a. You talk about Christian disciplines. That's a Christian discipline. Self examination that we have to be deliberate and focus on. Also, I have to be able to look at the things that are coming and being said to me because we like to surround ourselves around things that validate us and make us feel good. That's dangerous for a Christian because sometimes the things that make that flatter me are the things that could kill me. And so I have to make it a discipline of running those things through the truth and love of the gospel. To say, man, that feels good is wrong.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's a tough process. Again, these are about. This is a lot of. This is about being self sacrificial, being crucified with Christ personally, culturally, and being willing to go through the hard process instead of doing what's immediately. What feels good.

[Megan Ashley]

Feels good.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

In the moment.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

So talk to us about. Cause I know you have a new book coming out November 4, where a lot of these issues you're talking through in the book. So tell us about the new book. What can we expect out of the new book and how this is speaking to what we are currently experiencing right now.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, it's crazy how much it touches on that. So my new book is called don't let nobody turn you around. How the black church's public witness leads us out of the culture war. And basically, it's basically saying, how would the civil rights generation and their Christian ethic approach today's culture war approach? In short, we could say, approach the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the fallout of that. What would they say? Would Fannie Lou Hamer, who at one point was beaten almost to death, and years later she was beaten almost to death at the behest of a highway patrolman. Years later, she's asked, how do you feel about that highway patrolman? And she said, I love him and I know he's sick and America's sick and Christians are the doctor. Somebody who said that most of us ain't been beat almost to death by the people who we're talking about. Right. If she could say that in that moment, what would she say now?

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

What would be her first reaction? And would her response simply be a reaction? Would she be acting more like Trump because Trump won the election? Or would she be a stunning contrast to what that is right now? That's really what the book is asking us. How can we see ourselves, see our opposition? And what does the Bible demand from us in these tough moments?

[Megan Ashley]

I wanna talk about the imagination part that we talked about when you first got here. But in these moments, what are the most important things that we need to pay attention to, respond to? And.

[Interjecting Supporter]

And.

[Megan Ashley]

And I guess the best way to process all of these things, because what I. What I do, it can feel overwhelming. It's like, you know, I don't. How much do I need to know? How much do I need to research how much, like, all the things. What's happening in policy. What, in.

[Justin Gibney]

In.

[Megan Ashley]

In the church? What's happening in all the things? What. How. Where do we start in this. In this time that we are in right now, in getting towards a better, I don't know, a better response to all of this. Like, how can we start?

[Justin Gibney]

So prayer and scripture are always constants, Right. So we know that has to be there for us to respond appropriately. I think we can set, you know, set that aside as a constant. I think, number one, we do have to prioritize the people who are vulnerable in this moment. We do have to protect certain groups and people who are negatively affected by comments that are insensitive so we don't have to abandon Them, we need to be there and let them know I'm here to defend you. I'm here to do that again. As we've been talking about this whole time, the question is how do we best do that and approach it. We need to make sure that we're doing the self examination to say when I respond, what is my objective? Is it just to win the argument in the moment or is it actually to have a long term impact that makes sure that these wicked things that are happening now don't happen again? Right. The other thing I think is really necessary and that we can push aside too quickly. Please understand that progressivism and conservatism don't have the answer. If you look at the civil rights movement, it didn't fit into either one. Right. You had somebody like Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth on one night, he might be trying to get the juke joint closed down in his neighborhood that was getting Pete brothers killed and taking all their money. Right. He said, I need this out of my neighborhood the next day he might be marching for voters rights. One of those is a kind of more conservative point of view. One of those is a more progressive point of view. We will not be the answer that this nation needs if we just go with the right word response or the left response. We have to be brave enough and have the social innovation, right, have a bent towards social innovation to do it differently. To say, okay, they get this right, they get this wrong. We have a whole different unique response that's Christ centered and that's different. So I think those are some of the main things. And then what you alluded to earlier was addressing major moments with moral imagination. And really what that is, is saying as I respond, I can't be arrested by the moment. All the emotions and vibes that go into this moment. I can't get caught up in that tie. I have to be able to respond, but respond based on how things ought to be. So moral imagination says, yeah, I understand how things are, I understand how they're projected to be. How do I respond and transcend all those things? Because in every moment moment there's something being hidden from you. There's like a value or something important that most people in conventional wisdom is not seeing. Yeah, Christianity, that's why it's the same always. That's why we have the same scripture. Those things never change, which are the ones that aren't emphasized in our day that I need to grab onto to have a healthy and constructive response.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So I think those are the things to say that help Us get through this moment with a witness. And that's the biggest thing. When people see how we reacted to this, are they saying, man, this Jesus guy must have been something different, because that reaction in this moment.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

How do you react like that in this moment? That's what changes hearts.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah. That's good, right?

[Justin Gibney]

To have such a contrast to what's going on in the moment. Not ineffective, not complacent, tenacious, but very otherworldly.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And that was what you're saying you didn't see. And I didn't see much of it either.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

November 4th is when your book come out. Tell me the name of the book again one more time.

[Justin Gibney]

Don't let nobody tell me.

[Megan Ashley]

Tell them. I turn around and that's November 4th. So make sure you guys check that out. I do want to ask you this because I think it's going to be really important over the next few years that we get as many resources and knowledge on, you know, how to engage with politics as a believer. I just think that it's necessary because I'll admit, for me, and I told you this last time you were here, I used to be like super engaged with politics and all the things. And then I just, I couldn't do it anymore. I was getting too many anxiety attacks and, like, it was just not good for my health wise. And so I. But I did the extreme and I just completely stop engaging, which I don't think is healthy either. I think that we need to know what's going on. And so for somebody who I trust is extremely balanced in that you look at things from a healthy Christian perspective, what should we be paying attention to right now when it comes to policy, when it comes to Trump being our president? What are the things that we need to be engaged in? Things that even. And maybe not even so much like, but just things that we need to be in prayer for. Like what are the things that maybe are that he. That we need to be mindful of and prayerful of? What are the things that are going good, like what is happening in the state of our nation and politics right now that the Christian needs to be engaged in?

[Justin Gibney]

So two things I really think we need to be engaged in. Number one, thinking about our neighbors when it comes to immigration, because I see. Mistreated. Yeah, I mean, that's a. That's a major issue. And the Bible talks about. I mean, we know the Bible talks quite a bit about immigrants and sojourners and all that. Also, I think history, how our history is treated, education, how we're taught about history. That matters.

[Megan Ashley]

Because what I heard is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, there has been a mass effort by Trump to remove a lot of black history out of museums, books, all the things, schools, all that stuff. So is that.

[Justin Gibney]

Or at least to sanitize it in some ways to make it not look so bad on the country when sometimes it needs to look just as bad as it was on the country. And then lastly, I would say the children. One of the biggest problems in Atlanta and all over the country when you're talking about urban centers, is childhood illiteracy. And we can disagree on diversity, equity, all that other stuff. If kids can't read, it doesn't matter.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And we're so many kids that cannot read. I challenge the church in general, and we have a initiative called Lit City that we're doing. We're challenging the church in general to say, how about we come together and we teach these kids how. I don't know. Another institution that is in a position to say, let's teach these kids, not just Christian kids, all of our kids. Right. All of our children. Let's make sure that they have a chance, because we don't give them a chance at all. And we know the statistics when it comes to going to prison and all those things. When you can't read, we can't sit here, argue on social media while the kid next door can't read. Oh, you won the argument. Great. The three kids next door can't read. What are you doing about it? Yeah, that's what I'm talking. So guess what? I might lose the argument. I might not say everything somebody wants me to say in social media. I'm helping this kid. That's a ministry that matters. And so it's not all about the arguments. It's about the work that we're doing to care for other people. And I honestly think that can bring a divided church together. Because I think what you'll find is some of the people that may disagree with you about Charlie Kratos. Kirk might actually also have an interest in educating the kid.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Wow.

[Megan Ashley]

So just finding common ground.

[Justin Gibney]

Finding common ground and doing the work.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

That's awesome. What are some. Last time you were here, I asked you about resources that people can. Can do to stay engaged, but that are also healthy and balanced. Can you give. Because obviously our. Our viewership has grown. I want to make sure that everybody has the resources and all the things that they need to have a healthy balance view on politics, especially as a Christian, like, what are the things that you can tell us to engage with, whether it's books, media, whatever.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. So I would certainly say the Church politics podcast. So that's an. And campaign podcast about politics, and it's not a long one. You can kind of come in, get what you need, and move on. In an interesting way, I listen to shows like breaking points on YouTube, which gives you a variety of views. Some people on there are atheists, but they give you a variety of views. So you can see side. The problem that we have with our algorithms is we're just getting one side of the argument. And if you ask us to give the other side of the argument, we're gonna give the worst. We're gonna give the worst opinion on it instead of the best one.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So we need to make sure that if we're gonna be confident in our opinions, that we've heard the best of the other side and not just the charactered worst argument on the other side. And I think think Breaking Points and outlets like that are helpful in that regard.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that's good.

[Megan Ashley]

And last, lastly, I saw that you had posted, which I think was interesting to see the. The contrast of. At. At the memorial of Charlie Kirk. It was. It was Erica Kirk's response.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And then we had the contrast of Trump's response, which I think think is. Yeah, I just think that that is. That was very telling in so many ways. And so what would you encourage our viewers? Because I usually do a journal prompt at the end of every episode. And so maybe not necessarily a journal prompt, but, like, what can be your encouragement and how we engage and respond in this moment.

[Justin Gibney]

I would say don't dismiss all of the feelings that some of them may be negative feelings that you have about the legacy of who Charlie Kirk was, because like I said, I could write a book on our disagreements. Right. But I would watch Erica Kirk's speech and watch her forgive the assassin. And I think it'll tell you a lot about. You don't have to agree with it or the event at all. Right. I had a lot of disagreements with the event in general.

[Megan Ashley]

I did, too.

[Justin Gibney]

But if you can watch that and put what the influencers are saying aside, read some scripture, watch that, and maybe you can feel compassion for people who you have some very serious disagreements with. And that's the beginning of actually a conversation. Not to say I agree with you, I dismiss everything you said, but. But maybe based on your response, I can see your humanity. And I think what we've been getting out this whole conversation is people haven't seen each other's humanity. We've seen the arguments. We've seen our offense and how we've been offended. We haven't seen other people's humanity. I think that speech helps you see that even in the midst of the disagreement.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

[Megan Ashley]

Well, thank you for being here. I know it won't be the last time because there's just always stuff going on, and we have another election in a couple years. We have elections all the time. And I just think that. That it's important that, you know, yes, we are Christian first, but we still gotta be engaged and steward.

[Interjecting Supporter]

Where we are.

[Megan Ashley]

We have to steward our country well. We have steward our neighborhoods well, steward our communities well. And so I just think that it's important that we are educated and we have the resources that we need to just to be a good steward over what the Lord has given us, wherever he has us. So thank you for at least coming to help process through some of these big feelings and the things. I mean, I know. I hope that, you know, for all the viewers listening and watching, I hope that, if anything, like Justin said, we're encouraging you to deal with the humanity of all the things. Like deal with your heart. With all the things. Deal with your heart first and how. And wrestle with your heart first with the Lord and deal with that and. And remember the basic Christian values, to love God, to love people, to love your neighbor, regardless if you agree with them or not. And so I pray that. Yeah, I just pray that you guys are encouraged to have the Lord search your heart and deal with those things that are in your heart. So make sure you get Justin's book. November 4th. Don't let anybody. Did I say that right? Nobody turn you around. November 4th is when the book will be out. You guys already know. It will be on my Amazon storefront so you can get it. Make sure you get the book. Read it, Read it with people, read it with scripture, read it with the Lord in prayer and allow it to. Yeah. To bless your life and give you just wisdom on how to navigate through all these things. Justin, thank you so much. I really appreciate your help. You helped me out, if anything. I don't know if it helped them, but it helped. Helped me out more than anything. So thank you.

[Justin Gibney]

Thank you for having me and for your humility on the subject.

[Megan Ashley]

Thanks. All right, guys, see you next week. What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow In Totality Podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow In Totality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.