A (2:51)

Some crazy stuff, bro. And so he sees that. He gives us permission to be honest.

B (2:56)

Yeah.

A (2:56)

And I want to encourage somebody who's watching right now. Make the secret place your vice. Yeah, that's In Totality, Jim. My life has been a target for warfare on every front. Sometimes the prayer is not God. Get us out, is God. Show me what you're trying to do in me while I'm in this. God is faithful no matter what we are going through. This is very important. Please, if you're listening to In Totality right now, please hear my heart.

B (3:36)

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I'm your host, Megan Ashley. And today, listen, it's going to be a little different because usually I always approach my episodes with my guests as more conversational and there will be a little bit of that. But I'm just going to tell you right now, selfishly, I'm using this time as discipleship for myself. So I'm going to be asking a lot of questions. I'm going to be asking my guests a lot of questions about scriptures, just even personal things that I've been battling. So you're going to be. I'm welcoming you in to like a discipleship moment. My guest is no stranger to the platform. He is blessed and graced this platform before. You all know him as probably the most talked about pastor in our culture today. But I know him as my personal pastor, but also my big brother who I love, respect and honor so much. So welcome Pastor Philip Anthony Mitchell.

A (4:32)

My sister.

B (4:32)

How are you?

A (4:33)

I'm doing good.

B (4:34)

I'm so happy you're here and I'm.

A (4:35)

Happy to be here. Thank you.

B (4:36)

I'm happy I got you back.

A (4:38)

Oh, yeah.

B (4:38)

How are you.

A (4:42)

Doing? Well, I'm doing well. I think I'm navigating a lot of new dynamics that has been tough for my family and I and you know, I think there's a backside of favor and blessing. So I'm well spiritually and navigating some tough things culturally.

B (5:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you are. I have seen you, your impact, influence increase in such a significant way since the first time that I came to 28, 19 where you and Lena prayed for me and welcomed me, embraced me. And I have been at 28, 19 ever since. And everything has looked different since that first moment that I stepped into Access on a Thursday night to now where we are in a whole new building. You are viral on social media every week. I don't think there's been a week that has gone by where I haven't heard something about Philip Anthony Mitchell. What has this last 12 months been like for you?

A (5:49)

Yeah, I think this last 12 months for me has been a clinic in knowing how to steward both the blessings and the favor of Christ and also steward the sufferings of Christ all at the same time. I think for me, I have learned, have grown out of a place of being naive to think that I can enjoy what God has been doing in my life and in our ministry over the last year and a half and not think that I would also not have to endure some suffering as a result of that. And I think I was naive in that regard. I think there is a lot that people in culture desire by way of status and fame and platforms and all these things not knowing what they're really asking for. Right. And I think right now what my last 12 months have been like is how do I steward in one hand the joys of the kingdom and in the other hand the sorrows in the kingdom? How do I live well and suffer well? How do I steward those who love me and appreciate the Ministry of 2019 at the same time steward the growing chorus of enemies, all at the same time? And so I think for me, the last year has been a clinic in growing in deeper intimacy with Christ, not only from the standpoint of proclamation, teaching and all these things, but also to. In drawing near to him as a protector, as a defender, as a indicator, and also trusting him where I can't trace him, not understanding some of the warfare that has happened. I think I can even go back and mark this if we would be 100% transparent. I think it was right after Acts, right after we all did the conference together. It seems like my life has been a target for warfare on every front. And from Acts, which was October of last year, until now, all I've known is warfare. And at the same time, every metric that can be measured has grown in our ministry. If it can be measured, it has grown from disciples and attendance and finances and influence and social media following. If it can be measured, it has grown. And people will look at that and think that you have every reason to just be happy, just be happy right And I am thankful for what the Lord is doing. But at the same time, I've also shared now in his suffering on another level. Right. I know what it is for people to say hosanna in one week and say, crucify him at the end of the same week. Right. I know what it is to be loved in a country by some and also too, to be hated by others. And I know what it is for Christ now to have felt the celebration of people who appreciated his ministry and at the same time have to deal with those who. Who persecuted him falsely and misunderstood who he was. And so navigating that level of attack and that level of warfare and suffering is new for me on this level. And I think God has not taken me out of it because I think he's doing something in me. Right. I think it's important for people to remember even your most cherished pastors and leaders are still sheep. They are still disciples who are learning and growing. And so there's still things that I believe the Lord has been cultivating in my heart in this last year. Right. I'm going to be transparent right here. Right. I also think that there are some parts of me that is broken and that God has revealed that to me.

B (9:41)

In this last year through the persecution, through the trials.

A (9:44)

Absolutely. You know, the trials and the persecution are bothering me less today than they was a couple months ago. But at the height of my frustration, I had to get alone in my prayer time and ask, why is this bothering me so much? Why am I so angry at the fact that people are throwing arrows on me all the time? And I have to say, is there a little bit of rejection issues there? You know, why do I want to be loved by everyone? Why do I feel like I have to be understood by everyone? Where is the source of that? Where is that coming from? Right. And so I think for me, I had to unearth that. There's still some brokenness in some of these areas that I thought was gone. You know, I believe I'm a free man. I don't preach for applause. I'm not going to sugarcoat scriptures to keep people in a room. I think I'm free from that. But wanting everyone to understand me and wanting everyone to love me, wanting everyone to appreciate my ministry, there is a brokenness attached to that that I had to unearth during this time. Like, where is that coming from? I had to really sit with the Lord and work that out. So there was still some residue there that I thought was gone.

B (10:55)

Yeah.

A (10:55)

And I think the Powerful thing in that too, is that we all going to deal with trials and tribulation. And I think in America, we're accustomed to asking God to just deliver us from everything we go through. Sometimes the prayer is not God, get us out is God, show me what you're trying to do in me while I'm in this. And so my prayers have not only been, you know, Lord, I am praying for my enemies. Let me say this. I've also learned this season how to travail and pray for enemies, which is something I was not good at in the past. This year has taught me how to pray for those who persecute me and how to follow Christ not only in proclamation, but in the type of Christian ethic that teaches us how to deal with our adversaries.

B (11:44)

Yeah.

A (11:44)

And so in the life of Christ, and I'm learning all this this year. I'm watching how he dealt with his adversaries. Right. I think no one is above critique. Let's establish that right now. No one is above critique. But I do think there is a. There is a type of slander that is sinful, that hides behind the guise of righteous critique that is very pervasive in our culture, if that makes sense.

B (12:11)

And so could you give us an example of what that is like, what's a healthy critique, and then what's slanderous? Okay, you don't have to use a real example, but you know what I mean.

A (12:20)

Absolutely. So let's first establish that no one is above critique. And I think where there is validity and critique, we are wise if we lean into that and we listen, because that is an opportunity for growth. So if someone said to me, there is certain type of language you use in the pulpit that you should not use as a minister of the Gospel, I think that is a legitimate critique. Like, my wife has come and talked to me about things like that. The elders of our church has talked to me, and I will say, you know what? Y' all are right. I probably shouldn't use that type of language in the pulpit. That is a type of righteous critique in which I'm wise, and if I'm humble, I lean into that and I adjust. But then there is the sin of slander that hides behind the guise of critique, and that is people who categorically lie about your character and say things about you that's not true and do everything they can to diminish your influence and tear down your platform and your ministry. And it's not critique. It is the sin of slander. They wake up fixated on you. Every video they make is about you. They have a hard on about you. And some of that is rooted in demonic influence, and some of that is rooted and envy. And some of the things they say is not critique. It is slander. When you categorically tear down a person's character relentlessly. And then we try to hide that behind the guys of this is righteous critique. And so I think some of that is sinful. And then God will deal with them. And so, and so in all of that, in all of that, what I'm learning this year is how did Christ respond to this? Right? It's like he is not. He was not foreign to this. And I think it's easy for us to see the growth of his ministry. I think about Matthew. Yeah, I think about Matthew the eyewitness. We're walking through that book right now as a church. I think about how Matthew, in the beginning of his letter, beginning of his book, he tells us how Jesus went about everywhere, preaching and teaching and healing. He comes out of relative obscurity. And then Matthew tells us his fame begins to grow all around Israel. He's famous now. He is loved, he is acclaimed. He is appreciated by the masses. And he enjoys that fourth season for just a short while. And then persecution comes, and then arrows come, and then warfare comes, and it comes at the hands of Pharisees and Sadducees and Herodians and a gospel writer would say the Jews. And we see how Jesus deals with them. And I think we learn something from that. We learn that we will not steward the blessing of ministry without also warfare. And we have to be real about that. You're stewarding warfare right now. I'm stewarding warfare right now. You and I, right now, as we're sitting on this couch, are stewarding warfare in the culture. God has blessed your ministry. He's blessed your podcast. He's blessed your life. He's made you a voice in the culture. He's put you on platforms to speak gospel truth. And as that has happened, at the same time, enemies have come and arrows have come and warfare have come. And so you and I both right now know what it is to steward the blessings of the Lord and also warfare. How did the Lord respond? This is what I'm learning this year. For some of his enemies, he prayed for them. Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And so I think there's a category of enemies we have to pray for. For other enemies, he had to confront them, like with the Pharisees. In the temple in his final week of his life. And so I think there are times when we have to confront an enemy.

B (15:59)

Yeah.

A (16:00)

And for others, he was silent. Like before Herod. He said nothing. Right. And so I think there's times we have to know when to be silent. So I think as we look at the various categories of enemies, we have to know, what category do they fall in?

B (16:12)

Yeah.

A (16:13)

Some enemies we need to respond to, others we need to remain silent, and others we need to be praying for. And all of this I'm learning in this last year of my life.

B (16:22)

Yeah. Speaking of that, there was something that you were discipling me with just a couple weeks ago about how to identify your enemy, and you pointed me to 1st Samuel, 1st Samuel 17. It was something that I had never. So this is how. This is how. Listen, y', all, when you're being discipled by Philip Anthony Mitchell, this is what happens. He's going to call you. You're not going to know when, but he's going to call. So I'm at the doctor's office, and he's like, you got your Bible? I'm like, no, but I have my phone. He's like, pull out your Scriptures. I'm like, okay. So I pull out my. He said, go to 1st Samuel 17. And you showed me something that I had never seen before.

A (17:05)

Yeah.

B (17:06)

In 1st Samuel 17, when.

A (17:08)

Verse 41.

B (17:09)

Verse 41, where David is against Goliath.

A (17:14)

Yeah.

B (17:14)

And the. I'm trying to find verse. Yep.

A (17:17)

Yeah. Why don't you read it?

B (17:18)

Okay.

A (17:19)

For.

B (17:20)

Okay. The Philistine came closer and closer to David with the shield barrier in front of him. You want me to keep going?

A (17:27)

Keep going.

B (17:28)

When Phil. When the Philistine looked and saw David, he despised him because he was just a youth, healthy and handsome. He said to David, am I a dog? That you would come against me with sticks? Then he cursed David by. By his gods. Come here. The Philistine called David, and I'll give you flesh to the birds, to the sky, and the wild beasts.

A (17:48)

Yeah.

B (17:48)

And so that's where we stopped. And I was like, okay. Like, I know that scripture. I knew that in Sunday school when I was just a little taught. But then you said, go back and.

A (17:58)

Read it in detail and read it in detail.

B (18:00)

In 40.

A (18:00)

In verse 41:1, there's a powerful detail in the text.

B (18:04)

The Philistine came closer and to David with a shield barrier.

A (18:08)

And you said, stop and meditate on this. And I think this verse is very powerful because there is a detail in that Verse that a lot of people never paid attention to. And a friend of mine was a friend, and I was unpacking this is that when we oftentimes, when we preach or teach or think about the battle between David and Goliath, we know this battle historically. We understand what happened historically. But there is a detail in that text. It says that Goliath came out with his shield bearer in front of him. So actually, there's three people on this battlefield. There is David, there is Goliath, and in between them, there is an armor bearer. And if we read the rest of the chapter, we will see that David never addresses the armor bearer. He never says anything to this armor bearer. He does not even pick out a stone to throw it at the armor bearer. He is completely fixed on Goliath. And the only stone that he throws is towards Goliath. And I was saying how this is very powerful because the fact that David never addresses the armor bearer to me. Right. Reminds us that sometimes we have to know who our real enemy is. Right. And we have to know where our real battle is. The fact that David did not say one word to the armor bearer, he knew the armor bearer is not my enemy. To say something to that armor bearer would have been a waste of his time. And to throw a stone at that armor bearer would have been a waste of his weapon. But instead, David fixed his words on his enemy and he fixed his weapons on his enemy. And I think in culture, there are a lot of us who spend too much time throwing stones and armor bearers. Yeah, we spend too much time fixated on armor bearers, I. E. We spend too much time investing in things that is not the real battle or even dealing with people, and they are not the real battle.

B (19:58)

Yeah.

A (19:59)

Right. And so I think for those who are watching right now, I think we would. We would do ourselves well to discern our Goliaths from the armor bearers and know where to throw stones and where not to throw stones and where to fight and where not to fight.

B (20:15)

Yeah.

A (20:15)

And I think some of us got to be careful that we're not getting dragged into fights with the wrong people.

B (20:19)

That part. How do you. How do you. How do you identify? Because I've. I've had my fair share of stuff. Right. I'm nowhere been exposed to that in the. In the levels that you have. But I've had my fair share of slander and stuff online. How. How do you know what's worth responding to and what's worth not? Because there was a time, even early in the beginning of you and Lena embracing me and welcoming me and shepherding and discipling that I was going through something very public, very hurtful. And you called me and said, don't say. Don't say a word.

A (21:02)

Stay quiet.

B (21:03)

You stay quiet and don't say a word. How do you know what would be worth addressing and what's not worth addressing?

A (21:12)

I think that's a powerful question. First, I just. I want to commend you personally because I think you have built a reputation for not being petty and for not getting dragged into every single battle from the time you've become a public figure. I think you've done an excellent job navigating your warfare and not responding to every single thing. So I want to commend you for that. Public. I think you need to be commended for that. I think we know when we need to respond and when we need to stay silent by certain metrics. One, I think, is the Holy Spirit, obviously. I think the Holy Spirit will give us insight when we need to respond to something and when we need to remain silent. And we have to make sure that we don't allow our flesh to be louder than the voice of the Holy Spirit. And I think the Holy Spirit, who is God ministering to us in this life, will respond to us and let us know. There's some things you cannot stay silent about. Right? So I think when the Holy Spirit speaks, we have to say something. Then I think other things. Is the roi, Is it worth saying something? What is the return on me saying something about this? If I respond, what is going to be the net benefit of my response? Is this going to continue the drama? Is it going to keep it going? What is the benefit of me saying something? So I think we have to also think about what is the outcome of my response. And then I also got to think, is who is it impacting? Right. So I think if there is some level of attacks that is impacting your ministry or your family at a level in which it must be addressed, in which your character is being called to question at a level if you don't say something, it can really affect your validity and your voice. I think those are times we know we have to speak. And I think the Holy Spirit will always give us guidance. I think when we know in our heart that we cannot sit still on this. The Holy Spirit is nudging me to say something. I think those are the times we have to speak, and I think it's always wise. And this is very important to see our emotions as indicators and not always guides. It's like on your vehicle and mine. If I'm in the lane and there's a car next to me in that lane, there's a yellow light that's going to indicate on my rearview mirror, that yellow light reminds me it's like emotions, it's blinking. I'm acknowledging that something is there. Right. The yellow light cannot force me into the lane. If I move into that lane, I have chosen to move into that lane. So our emotions are gifts from God. They are indicators, they indicate something's going on. So I'm dealing with warfare and I could be angry, I could be upset, I could be hurt. We can cry all the things, but then I have to have a barometer outside of me. I can't let that indicator just tell me, move into that land. And I think it's important for all of us who are navigating warfare and very difficult emotions to make sure that we have a filter outside of ourselves for those emotions. For me, my filters are prayer, spiritual authority, right. My brothers and sisters who are lateral relationships. And so I'm talking to them, I'm talking to the Lord, I'm talking to my wife. Is this something I should respond to? Is this something I should ignore? You understand what I'm saying? So I think, I think as we are, as we are in the safety of spiritual authority and community, as we are in the safety of our prayer closet, as we're sensitive to the Holy Spirit and we're looking at the impact of certain attacks, I think through those filters we will be able to discern properly.

B (24:50)

Yeah.

A (24:50)

What things I should respond to and what not. What things I should stay silent.

B (24:54)

I, I. You and I, we always talk about how we're very, we're wired very, very similar, very similarly. We feel things very deeply. We're emotional, very emotional, sensitive, all the things and, and very passionate about the things of the Lord. And I kind of have a two part questions. Again, I'm using this as my discipleship time. So I kind of have a two part question for those who let me, let me frame it as this. I asked a question not that long ago on my social media about what were you? I asked people like, what were your expectations when you first gave your life to the Lord? What expectations did you have? And did those expectations aligned with biblical truth of what a Christian life is? And the literally 98, probably 99 people were like, I thought it would be easier, I thought it would be easier, I thought it would be easier. And so that gave me some insight that we are not doing a great job discipling people in suffering. 100 like, we're not setting, we're not presenting a gospel in a way where we're, we're preparing people to suffer well.

A (26:11)

Yes.

B (26:12)

And so I have a two part question just for the average Christian. How can we suffer well, one and two for those that are more sensitive, more emotional. Because I feel like, because I, I experience a different level of warfare and a different level of suffering because of how sensitive I am. So it's like it magnifies me too, the, the warfare and it magnifies the suffering because I am so sensitive and I feel everything so deeply. How can we as Christians, like I said, for the average Christian, how can we suffer well? And what's the importance on shepherds, teachers, pastors, preachers, whoever to give a gospel theology on how to suffer well as a Christian? And then how for those who are extra sensitive, who are extra emotional, how can, because I do believe the Lord created us that way. Like, I don't think the Lord just. We're wired that way for a reason. Yeah. So how can you suffer well when you're wired that way too?

A (27:09)

Yeah, yeah. First things first. I think the survey you did on your social media is very, very telling of the culture of the church in the west and is also very telling of the teachings we are tapped into. Right. And I thought the same when I got saved. I thought I was headed for a life of bliss. It almost felt like being on the airplane is about to take off. It's going to be Jesus and I and we're headed for the sunset. And then life set in. And I think a lot of that has to do with the pervasive teaching and culture that the Christian life is one of ease and one of just happiness. And that God is more concerned about our happiness than our holiness and that he's more concerned about our comfort than our character development. And so I think there is a lot of people who have been into the placebo of Western Christianity and that is unfortunate. So one of the things that I say a lot to our church family and you know, this is that, and I just posted about this on my page not that long ago, here is the Christian life. Live well, suffer well, recover well, repeat. That is essentially the Christian life. It is live well, suffer well, recover well, repeat. We're not going to escape that paradigm in the Christian life. And so I think live well, we've been preached that to death. Right. We know what it is to live well. And by saying live well, how do we do all the things, you know, the scripture tells us to do, the things that bring us joy and have community and read your Bible and go to church? And we know that part. And we preach that well, suffer well. We don't preach well. And I believe it is clear in Scripture that we need to learn how to suffer well. So I want to say this to your audience, and I think it's very important. One of the things I encourage people to do is to not get all that theology from sermons and podcasts. And so you hear me say this from the pulpit all the time. Read, read, read. Don't even believe everything that I say. Go home and read, read, read. Because I think the more people get familiar with the word of God for themselves, the more that they will see that we must have a theology of suffering. It is in the scriptures from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Right. Right. Now we can go Old Testament and say, let's look at the life of Job. Right here is a man who suffered greatly. Let's not gloss over the fact that the man lost children, the man lost employees, the man lost businesses, the man lost all of this in the same season. This is a type of category of suffering that the average person would never experience in his life. And yet he had to learn to suffer well. He had to come out on the other side. And the thing about it is that you and I know what God was doing, that he was being tested for God's glory. And you and I know the outcome. But if you read Job's book carefully, Job never gets an explanation from God. Right. He has no idea that God is saying, have you considered my servant that his righteousness qualified him for that level of suffering? He does not know that. You and I know that because we're privy to that in the text. Right? But we see Job suffer well. How does Job suffer? Well, he never curses God, even when.

B (30:25)

His wife encourages him to.

A (30:26)

Even when his wife encourages to him. He never curses God. He never blames God for everything that is going on. He maintains his honor and respect for God while he is suffering now. He curses the day that he was born. He is almost hoping for death. We can even say Job was borderline suicidal. And you and I both have dealt with suicidal ideation, so we get that. But we never see Job curse God, although he never gets an explanation. And so we see Job suffer. Well, that is, he came out on the other side. Yeah, he survived.

B (31:02)

Yeah, yeah.

A (31:04)

The season of suffering that God allowed him to go through. Right. Let's go New Testament. And I'm gonna go to a letter that is not preached first and Second Peter.

B (31:14)

I actually love first and Second Peter.

A (31:17)

First and Second Peter is a very powerful, powerful clinic on suffering. Well, here is the Apostle Peter, Megan, writing to Jews in the first century, encouraging them to suffer well, to be submitted to the federal government or the Roman government, to not resist, to not fight back, all the things. And he's teaching them in all of this to still try to be holy, to honor God, to honor the government, all of this. And we're reading First Peter, and it is a clinic on suffering. Right. But the backdrop makes it more powerful. When is Peter writing this? He's writing this during the reign of Nero, one of the most ruthless emperors in the history of Rome. Here's a man in Nero who was impaling Christians alive, burning them alive, and then sticking them in his garden as living candles to light his garden. It is during this type of barbaric suffering of believers and execution of believers that Peter is writing to us about how to suffer well, how to live well, how to pursue holiness, how to be faithful. He's writing these letters during his backdrop. So we see that there is a theology for suffering. Well. And any believer that is doing Christianity without understanding that we must embrace suffering has bought into a Western version of Christianity that is disconnected from the Scriptures. You understand what I'm saying? I think for every believer, we will suffer to some degree. And here is the evidence of that. Jesus said two things that's very important. If we will be his disciple, we must take up our cross and we must follow him. The cross is an instrument of death. So we know that there will be some measure of internal suffering that is meant for character development. We understand that. Right. But then he also said that in this life, Right. You will have tribulation.

B (33:16)

Right.

A (33:17)

And so Jesus promises the follower that we will suffer for his name's sake. Paul will go on to write that anyone who lives godly in Christ will endure persecution.

B (33:30)

Yeah.

A (33:30)

And so all throughout the New Testament, there are scriptures that prophesy to us that we will suffer. The problem is when we are biblically illiterate and when we get all of our theology from sermons that are void of scripture and from podcasts that don't honor the word of God, which is not the case on In Totality, we will create for ourselves expectations upon God that are not realistic. And then what it does is when suffering comes, it blows a hole in our psyche.

B (34:00)

Yeah.

A (34:01)

And then we're wondering, God, where are you? Why Are you doing this to me? We almost get mad at him.

B (34:05)

Yeah. I was thinking about actually this. This morning in the. I Woke up at 3am with. With this song on my heart and it drew me to Lamentations in chapter I want to say, which is a.

A (34:26)

Lament, by the way. Lamentations, an entire lament from Jeremiah.

B (34:30)

And Jeremiah is known for being the weeping prophet. Right. And so I was. Oh, man. I know. It's Jeremiah. Was it two, I believe.

A (34:39)

Let me. Let me say this while you're flipping the page, so you find a page. Let me say this to your audience.

B (34:43)

Oh, okay.

A (34:44)

Let me say this to your audience. I want to say this to your audience because we all are going to suffer. We all are going to deal with persecution and trials and hardship. And when I say from the platform that we need to suffer, well, when I say suffer well, from a practical standpoint, I mean. I mean, endure it with a heart of humility. Stay close to Christ as you're walking through it. Try to see what Christ is doing in you while you're going through that suffering and come out on the other side. So by suffering, well, I mean, we show the type of Christian character in which we acknowledge that the Lord is with us in this. What are you doing in me in this? We remember that he has not abandoned us in this. And that no matter if I get pushed to the deepest place in terms of the dark night of the soul, I must come out on the other side. That is, I will survive this. Watch this in this life or the next. So even if I find myself in the position of Apostle Paul, when he writes his letters to Timothy, when he's suffering in a Roman prison, he knows he's not going to get out of that prison. But he sees his execution as a. Watch this. A deliverance from the body in which he's going to see his Savior. Even that too, is suffering. Well.

B (36:04)

Yeah.

A (36:04)

Because this is important because we don't want to just be American. We're speaking to our global audience.

B (36:10)

Yeah.

A (36:10)

And we have brothers and sisters. Right now, you and I'm about to cry right now, you and I have brothers and sisters who are suffering extreme atrocities for the gospel.

B (36:23)

Yeah.

A (36:24)

We don't think about them.

B (36:25)

Yeah.

A (36:26)

We don't pray for them.

B (36:27)

Yeah.

A (36:27)

We don't care about them. Them. But I've been outside the country.

B (36:30)

Yeah.

A (36:31)

And I've been in the east. And we have seen the atrocities that some of them suffer. Right. And some of them are not going to make it out of that suffering in this life.

B (36:40)

Yeah.

A (36:41)

But they will be freed from the body that's being mutilated.

B (36:44)

Yeah.

A (36:45)

And they will still suffer well by going on to meet their maker. And so I think we need to have a perspective of suffering well that even goes beyond this life. That I can suffer well in this life. And if God wills, I will come out on the other side of this life. But watch Megan. And if he does not will right. My suffering will is I will not curse him on my way out. And I will leave this life in suffering if I have to for the sake of being a good witness for my Savior. That is a level of Christianity that is not taught in America, but it is a level of Christianity that our brothers and sisters know very well outside the United States. Does that make sense?

B (37:24)

Yes. And you've taught me that even when I've had to speak in different places, I've spoke outside of this country. And you've taught me how, like you preach a gospel that preaches globally global gospel, not a. Not an Americanized Christianity or Americanized gospel that only fits our country, but a gospel that goes beyond the west and that it's global. And I've learned that from you. But I was one. Two things that I've learned in this season of suffering. And I was reading lamentations this morning because. Because the song Great is Thy Faithfulness woke me up last night. It was like I was singing it in my head. And the Lord brought me to Lamentations 21 or, I'm sorry, Lamentations 3 21. And I'm gonna read it. It says. So anyway, you know, Jeremiah from the beginning today, he's just going through it and he's in. Point number one is. Is that I've learned in suffering to go to the Father.

A (38:22)

Come on.

B (38:23)

Where before in my carnality and in my flesh. I've always gone to people to. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong because you need community. I've gone to you for several things that have broken my heart. So you need community. But I've learned that my first point of contact needs to be lament to. To him. And we see David do that all through the Psalms where he's. He's saying some really crazy stuff, but he's saying it to God. Right. And so. So Jeremiah's doing the same thing here and then. But. But something.

A (38:52)

We gotta come back to what you just said too. That's part of. He's saying some really crazy things. But he's saying it to God.

B (38:57)

He's saying it to God.

A (38:58)

We gotta come back.

B (38:59)

So. So Jeremiah is doing the same thing. He's saying, like, lord, where are you? Have you forgotten us? How are you just gonna let us. Like he's saying all these crazy things, but then something happens in verse 21. And the first word is to me one of the most powerful things. The first line, he says, yet I call this to mine. And therefore I have hope because of the Lord's faithful love. We do not. His mercies never end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness, I say, the Lord is my portion. Therefore I put my hope in him. And that to me I have learned in this season of suffering that my memory is one of my greatest weapons.

A (39:35)

And this is what Jeremiah had.

B (39:37)

Yes.

A (39:38)

Memory of God's faithfulness.

B (39:40)

That part, yes. And. And how can we. Because sometimes your memory can be your greatest weapon against you.

A (39:47)

Yes.

B (39:47)

It can be your greatest weapon against your faith. But we see here how Jeremiah's greatest weapon is his memory towards his faith. How can we activate our memory to be our greatest weapon against the snares of the enemy when he's trying to, you know, just in suffering and in persecution?

A (40:02)

So we're gonna. We're gonna address that. But I wanna go back to something you said about David is saying the craziest things, but to God. I think it's important for us to not gloss over what you just said, because that's a gem. Right. Or in totality. That's an in totality gem for your audience is that we want to encourage them. You need to be honest with God.

B (40:19)

Yes.

A (40:19)

Right. It does not make sense. And I say this all the time to sanitize your prayers when God knows all things.

B (40:25)

Yeah.

A (40:25)

So I think God is big enough, strong enough to handle the fullness of all of our. The full range of our emotions. He can handle that. So we want to encourage the audience to be honest with God when you go into that prayer time. Right. And so memory. I think there's two beautiful things about memory. You said something very powerful. The devil can use our memory against us, but also the Holy Spirit can help us use our memory for good. And I think there is two things that we should address. There are things in our memory, in our past, we cannot go back and change. There's things that I regret and you regret. There was things that I used to be ashamed of and used to be ashamed of. There's things I wish I could go back and do different, but I can't. And the enemy will play on those things every now and then. And he is called the accuser of the brethren. And so he will constantly try to remind us of some past season of failure, some mistake that we made in all these things. And so when the memory is working against us, we need to run to the wisdom of Paul. When he wrote to the church at Philippi, he said, this one thing I do. And in the Greek, it's a continual present tense. So this one thing I keep doing, forgetting what is behind, pressing on to what is ahead. So I think there is a Christian ethic in which we have to forget things that are behind, that is, we have to keep putting them out of our memory. And when I think about Paul, thus he. Although he does not tell us what it is, I'm just going to make a presumption of the text, okay? I'm going to make a safe presumption of text. So I don't want anybody to call me a heretic, right? If I'm Paul, what do I need to forget? I need to forget that I persecuted Christians, and because of me, some of them were put to death. And so now, as a believer, I'm probably seeing the faces of these mothers, these fathers, these children who have been imprisoned and some put to death because of my zeal without wisdom, my zeal without. So when I see their faces at night, when I think about them, I have to keep pulling that out of my mind. So when I think about I was a blasphemer and a murderer of believers, I think for Paul, he has to keep forgetting this. If not, the enemy will persecute him. How are you preaching the gospel yet?

B (42:32)

You did this.

A (42:32)

Yes, you did this. So I think for our audience, we need to help them remember. When your memory's working against you, we lean into the wisdom of Paul that there's some things we have to forget. But then there's times when we need our memory to help us. And this is what Jeremiah does. This is you and I being in the midst of suffering, pain, hardship, trials. Let's be honest, because you and I have had these conversations in private and almost being like, God, where are you? Yep. Why are you allowing this to happen? How long am I going to be here and feeling like I don't know if I want to pray about this? Because you just are wary with the trial that you're in. You and I have talked about this offline, right? Many times. But then it's in that moment when the Holy Spirit gives us a flashback like Jeremiah has. But look how far you've brought Me. Look at all the things you've brought me through. Look at all the valleys that you were with me in. Look at all the things that you have brought me out of. And when I get a glimpse of his track record, I can have confidence in the moment that if he's brought me out before, he is able to bring me out again. Now, I'm not gonna say he will bring me out the same way. Right. And he may not bring me out. This is for our non American believers. He may not. He may not bring me out, but that does not change his character. My suffering does not change his character.

B (43:57)

That's good.

A (43:58)

My trial does not change his character. Regardless if he brings me out or not or how he brings me out, it does not change the fact that he is faithful. That's good. His faithfulness is not depending upon him answering my prayer. His faithfulness is woven into his character. He is faithful, and it's only by his grace. You and I have tasted of his faithfulness. Jeremiah tasted of his faithfulness. So he can write and say, when I remember, when I look back on, he can do that. David can do the same. Megan can do the same. Philip can do the same. And so we should celebrate that. We can do that. Some of our brothers and sisters will not be able to say that, but it does not change his character. Now watch. God is faithful no matter what we are going through. And when I lean on the weight of his character against the backdrop of my suffering, I can find hope in that moment. Even if the hope is to just give me the strength to endure the suffering just another day.

B (44:55)

Yeah.

A (44:56)

So one of the things that I believe is I believe this is important. Sometimes we cannot pray our way out of a circumstance, but you can pray your way into peace in the middle of your circumstance. And this is what Jeremiah is doing. Jeremiah, historically, is a man who's preaching a hard truth to us. A rebellious nation. Watch. That rejects his message. It gets to the point where he doesn't even want to preach no more. He tries to abandon the ministry. And then we have that famous line, but that word was in me. It was like fire. Fire shut up in my bones. So here is a man, let's contextually, who spends four decades preaching to people that never accepts his message. Okay? A lot of us could not survive that.

B (45:45)

Not at all.

A (45:47)

We have approval. Addiction, people, addiction. We have deep insecurities that would not allow us to preach for 40 years and no one listened. This man preached for 40 years and no one listened. This man is tossed in Cisterns. This man is persecuted. This man is preaching to a people that never accepts his message. He's grieved.

B (46:08)

Yeah.

A (46:09)

He knows judgment is coming.

B (46:10)

Yeah.

A (46:11)

He's crying all the time. Time. Like, I'll cry all the time. He writes lamentations. He's crying. And he still remembers that God, in all of these years, you have still been faithful to me.

B (46:21)

Yeah.

A (46:22)

So this is how we use our memory for glory.

B (46:24)

Yeah.

A (46:25)

And this is how we protect our memory from unnecessary persecution.

B (46:28)

That's good.

A (46:28)

Does that make sense?

B (46:29)

Yeah. One of my favorite scriptures is. Is Romans 8. For the. For the sufferings of this present time won't compare to the glory that will be revealed to us. And that has anchored me through many, and I mean many hard, hard trials and sufferings because like the way that Tony Evans describes it is. Is that when. When the glory is revealed to us, it would be like, what Suffering. And I hold on to that. And. And I look forward to a day where. Because I believe that there's even things. And I'm not. I'm not in no way, shape or form suffering in the way that some of our others, like you said, brothers and sisters in the east, are suffering. But there are sufferings that I have that are persistent. You know what I'm saying? I suffer sometimes with my. With my mental health and my emotions and just things that I have to. About insecurities, having this platform imposter syndrome, all the things. But I hold on to that. That the sufferings don't compare to the glory that will be revealed.

A (47:27)

And I think you said something very important, and I think we should. I want to. I want to piggyback on something you said. I think it's important for the audience to understand that we're not minimizing suffering in the West.

B (47:38)

Yeah.

A (47:38)

It is contextualized for us. And so for us, we are all dealing with some measure of suffering that is contextualized. We're not minimizing that at all. It is real, it is legitimate, and it is painful. Right. And so we don't want to minimize that. But this passage that you broach, there is a. There is. There is a truth to that passage that often goes overlooked in Western culture as that passage goes beyond this life. So when he said, for the. The sufferings of this present time is not worthy to be compared to what shall. He's talking about the glories of eternity.

B (48:12)

Yeah.

A (48:12)

Right.

B (48:13)

Yeah.

A (48:17)

And I think it's important to debunk right here in totality, that too many of us have Heard that passage preached in the context of only right now. Will we experience glories now? Yes. Will we experience blessings now? Yes. But the essence of that passage, this is very important. Please, if you're listening to in totality right now, please hear my heart. If you and I do not fix our gaze on eternity, if we do not have a hope that goes beyond this life, we will not have strength for the sufferings we endure in this life. The scriptures point us to having a hope that goes beyond this life. And if the believers who are watching right now, Megan, gets a hold of the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Christ and develop in their heart a hope that goes beyond the clouds, they will have greater fortitude. You hear the word fortitude. To endure the sufferings of this life, we will go through immense pain and look at the sky and say, lord, I know a day is coming. Everything I'm going through right now will give way to both joys, endless rewards, endless. And me being able to see your face and being able to take the crown that you have bestowed upon me and lay it at your feet, and I will find rest for my labors. If that's not a part of our theology in the west, we will only see our sufferings now. And we will attach that scripture to say, man, God must deliver me from everything right now. And if I hope terminates in this life, it's gonna rob the heart of the type of fortitude it's supposed to have. I actually think the devil will be hard pressed. What is he really gonna do? Yeah, let's.

B (50:14)

Yeah.

A (50:14)

What is he really gonna manufacture for the believer whose heart is anchored in eternity? Yes, you can lose spouse, child, business, platform, health. And if you have a hope that goes beyond this life, you can endure almost anything if you have a hope that goes beyond this life. And I think the Lord wanted us to be wired that way so that the trials of this life does not sink us when we go through. This is why Paul said we should set our affections on things that are above. Yeah, but that is not preached in our culture. Right. So all of our affections, Megan, are attached to the temporary things of this life. And if they shift, God forbid, some of us can't survive.

B (50:59)

Yeah.

A (51:00)

If you lose your job, you lose your title, you lose a relative, you lose a platform. If something shifts, we can't survive.

B (51:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (51:08)

And so we have to have a hope that goes beyond this life.

B (51:10)

I often think about, and I've shared this story before, I don't know if I've ever Shared it with you. But I remember my mom telling me that when I was young, when I was a baby, she was a single parent. She was so scared, all the things. And she said she used to obsess over, like, if I was okay. So she would, like, run in my room, in my crib and look like. Watch me sleep. She would barely get any sleep. And she said, the Lord at one point in time said, I need you to imagine making in a casket. In your mind, imagine she's taken from you. Will you still serve me? And I think. And I take that, and I. And I think about how Stephen, in the Book of Acts, how he's being persecuted, literally being stoned, but his eyes were fixed on. He saw the King of glory and standing. Like, this is the only time in Scripture where we see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father, but he had his gaze fixed on him. And Scripture says he had a face like an angel, like he was, but his gaze was fixed. And he's even so much so fixed on him that as he's being stoned, he's praying for those who are stoning him and persecuting him. And so I think about how, like, the Lord had to give my mom a certain. A vivid image to say, like, basically, will you fix your eyes on me? Even if you lose the most precious thing that you have, will you keep your eyes on me?

A (52:27)

And I think what's powerful about what the Lord did for your mom, and I think the Lord has tried to do this for all of us, is give us glimpses of the end. So if we. If we read all the way to the end, and I encourage people, read the book of Revelation or listen to it, there is a blessing on it. He's already shown us the end, right. So he's already given us a glimpse into life beyond right now. Both so that we can have confidence in where we're going and what we're going to inhabit, but both so we can understand that this is not the end. All which gives us a type of inner fortitude that maybe the unbeliever may not have to navigate the trials of his life. And for the person that's wired like you and I, who are very emotional and going through suffering, we're going to cry just a little bit more. Can we be transparent? And we're going to be in our feelings just a little bit more.

B (53:15)

Yep.

A (53:16)

Right? And we're gonna be in our head just a little bit more.

B (53:20)

Yep. Yep.

A (53:21)

And we might be in that basement just a little bit Longer than the average person. Right. And I want to say to the brothers as it is wired like, like you and I, one, don't despise. Yeah, they shouldn't despise their wiring.

B (53:35)

Yeah.

A (53:36)

You are emotional for a reason. Jeremiah was emotional. I think David was emotional for sure. I am emotional. You're emotional. So first, don't despise your wiring. And God, he made you that way for a reason, for a purpose. My whole thing is. But don't let your wiring be a crutch to the point that you can't survive your trials and your tribulations. And you and I have talked about this in great length, is that we acknowledge our feelings and they are real and we sit with them. We may write, we may cry, we may complain. We may not want to pray in a moment. Different people have different responses. They may be. But don't let your emotional wiring be such a crutch to you that you don't come out of your suffering on the other side. Don't let your emotions become a God, that they become louder than the pages of Scripture. And I think for me, and I've said this before, when I am emotional, I bury myself in the word of God. And especially in the Psalms, which we see the full range of all human emotion, from love to anger to even desires for people to be killed. We're talking about David. Yeah, right. He said very bad things about some of these.

B (54:52)

He sure did.

A (54:52)

I mean, he said, listen, kill them, kill them, and they kill their parents, kill their kids. Let their kids be bastards without parents. Like David said some crazy, crazy stuff, bro. And so he sees that he gave, gives us permission to be honest.

B (55:04)

Yeah, Right.

A (55:06)

But even as, even in our emotions, I, I, I feel like we have to make sure that we have good community around us.

B (55:12)

Yeah.

A (55:13)

We have good spiritual authority in our life. We know how to bury ourselves in the word of God. And we know how to sit by emotions long enough for the Lord to come in and finally say, all right, enough is enough.

B (55:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (55:24)

I walk you out of this.

B (55:25)

Yeah.

A (55:26)

And, and I've been there. Yeah, and you've been there.

B (55:28)

Yeah.

A (55:28)

Right.

B (55:28)

I think about, I think about some of the times that I've, I've suffered. And in the moment, it has not been like it doesn't feel good. But then when I, when I come out of it or when I lean into the Lord, I've experienced a level of comfort 100% that I would not have experienced had I not gone through the trials. And it brought me to the Scripture in Second Corinthians, where it says, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the. The Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. He comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any kind of afflictions through the comfort we ourselves receive from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, so also does Christ, our comfort overflows. And I thought about that, too, because for the people who maybe even experience things deeper and more intensely, like you and I, I. I have learned to see it as a honor and a privilege because I've received a level of comfort that I can now encourage and comfort other people. Just like in the. In the ways that I've. I've suffered with suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety. Because I have been comforted by the Lord. I'm able to sit here and talk on the. On the. On this couch and. And talk on this podcast to encourage other peoples and comfort them in the same ways that I've needed from the Lord.

A (57:05)

And what's powerful about that is that there are people watching right now who are silent sufferers. They are going through things that they feel ashamed to talk about. Some of them feel like they have no person to turn to. But they're watching a Megan Ashley right now on In Totality. Right. And you've been through some immense trials and tribulations, and I know about them. And you've seen what I've walked through. Right. And it's a badge of honor for us to have suffered some of those things for the sake of the kingdom.

B (57:39)

Yeah.

A (57:39)

So that in moments like this, we can speak with a type of confidence to people who are watching that Christ is faithful in suffering.

B (57:46)

Yes, he is.

A (57:48)

He is near to the brokenhearted. Psalm 34. He will walk with you through this. Right. And he knows how to bring you out. And there is a type of authority and assurance we can speak with because of the things that we have survived that now allows us to go back and minister to those who are in a dark place. There are people right now watching who are in a dark place who are looking for a voice to just give them some semblance of what is happening right now. And is God faithful? And Kenny. And is good that we have been through so we could tell somebody else. This is how God is faithful in the midst of all these things. Right. So not only are we counted worthy to suffer for heaven him, but that we are trained in how to minister to others as A result of our suffering. Does that make sense? So I think it's important somebody, and I also want to say this. I felt in the spirit we should say this. We should not also despise therapy.

B (58:39)

Yes. And help out.

A (58:41)

Help.

B (58:42)

Yeah.

A (58:42)

Right. I feel like we should not only despise therapy and help. I think this is stigmatized in the kingdom, but I think God can work through therapists and he can work through that type of help along with the scriptures and commuting everything else.

B (58:55)

Yeah.

A (58:55)

So we want, want silence sufferers to know to get the help that you need.

B (58:59)

Yes.

A (58:59)

But don't die in that secret place in silence.

B (59:02)

Yeah.

A (59:02)

But get the help that you need. Yeah. I, I, so somebody might DM us saying no, don't talk about no, you need.

B (59:09)

I think I, I had a therapist and I'm still, and I probably need another one. But I walked through that hardest time of my year, that 2023 was the hardest year of my life. And I had a therapy session every week. Every week, same time I had a therapy session. I was like, I am not going to do this, this without help. And what I've also learned to though is, is that any suffering that I feel, whether it's minor or major, however I qu qualify it in my mind, I've learned to invite the Lord into every part of it.

A (59:40)

Yes.

B (59:40)

I don't do it independently if I like. I think that's the thing. We have to learn to stop suffering independent of the presence of the Lord. You need him to suffer well. And I think the reason why we're not suffering well is because we're not inviting him.

A (59:55)

Yes.

B (59:56)

In the suffering.

A (59:57)

And this is why the secret place has to be a vice while we're suffering. Right. So people have vices. Right. You know, it can be drugs, alcohol, pornography, all the things human beings have vices. I think one of the most powerful vices, and this will sound counterintuitive, like my vice now, like I used to, like when I was in the world, I had, you know, all manner of vices. My vice now is the secret place is my vice which makes me needy.

B (60:29)

Yes.

A (60:29)

And so every time my heart feels sick, I'm going to carry my heart into the secret place. And I am going to invite God into the depths of everything I'm dealing with in my heart. I'm not going to keep him out of it. Right. Whether it can be things in the home, outside the home, in ministry, outside of ministry, whatever it is the secret place is going to be. And I want to encourage somebody who's watching right now. Make the secret place your vice, right? Every time your heart is sick, train your heart to carry it into the presence of God and into His Word. If we use the Word and if we use our secret place as our vice man, we will find the type of therapy and release we need in the presence of God. Because you can't find no place else, right? And so I think it's very important for us, like you said, to invite God into the depths of all of our pain and suffering. And that's why prayer has to be a vice. It has to be the place we run to when our heart is hurting.

B (61:27)

Yeah, what's up you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow In Totality Podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow In Totality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.