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- [00:00]
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This is an iHeart podcast.
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Hi all.
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We're excited to share episode one of this new series with you, but we're even more excited to tell you that you can actually listen to this episode completely ad free with I Heart True Crime plus available exclusively on Apple Podcasts plus, you'll get instant access to episode two as well, a whole week early ahead of everyone else and a never before heard bonus episode that is only available to subscribers. So head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crown plus and subscribe today.
- [00:36]
A
This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.
- [00:38]
B
Facing a beauty emergency? Need a last minute gift? Well, don't panic.
- [00:42]
A
Sephora is now available for delivery on Uber Eats. You can now get all your beauty essentials delivered in as little as 25 minutes for the same price as in store.
- [00:51]
B
Plus treat yourself to $10 off when you spend $50 or more on your first Sephora order on the Uber Eats app.
- [00:56]
A
Order Sephora on uber.
- [00:58]
B
Offer ends October 30th.
- [01:00]
A
One order per customer.
- [01:01]
B
Additional terms apply SIAP for availability. Delivery fees may apply. Goodbye.
- [01:05]
A
There's nothing like sinking into luxury. @washablesofas.com you'll find the Annabe sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699, the stain resistant performance fabric, slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop now@washablesofas.com Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [02:06]
B
We see you listening to your podcast, picking at your split ends wondering is my hair really thinning? It's no mystery. Over time, cheap shampoos can weaken hair. The solve Mowry. You could get less shed and more fuller looking hair in time for the holiday photos with your mystery date. Now purchase Mowry 50% off while it lasts. Take the quiz for a tailored recommendation at A life that's carefree needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mowry hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.
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If we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
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Of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra.
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Siemenmobile.com from the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset.
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I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.
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A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.
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Incels will be added to the terr. Police say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd killing 10 people.
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Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge.
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Very angry. Expressing a lot of hatred towards women and towards men who get all the women.
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I just told my husband I know she's Dead.
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This is Incels, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season one, episode one begin at the ending. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller. We've had the topic of incels, which stands for involuntary celibates, on our radar for many years. There was an international media explosion after Elliot Rogers mass shooting on May 23, 2014 in Isla Vista, California.
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22 year old Elliot Rogers stabbed his three roommates to death before embarking on.
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A violent rampage which left three more people dead and 14 injured.
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Roger eventually crashed his car and committed suicide.
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In the ensuing decade, the largely online incel community has become wider spread and more insidious. A global pandemic and increased isolation fueled this vitriolic fire and we've been seeing an uptick in violence, including in the most recent case. KT Studios has covered the Idaho student massacre where incel ideology potentially played a part.
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Sources saying that Kohberger made chauvinistic and condescending remarks towards women at Washington state.
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Apparently Kohberger said that men would take.
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Women'S jobs because they weren't as smart at one point.
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We've gotten to this point with Bryan Kohberger because we're still looking for a motive and because these were attractive young women, one with her boyfriend.
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So I think it's not a far.
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Leap for a lot of people to question if Bryan Kohberger is an incel. Here's Stephanie. And crime analyst Body moving.
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INCEL stands for involuntarily celibate. And the involuntarily is, you know, important here. They basically blame women for being celibate, that they're.
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That they're still virgins, that they haven't.
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Been given the right amount of attention from women for whatever reason, their social.
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Standing, maybe the way they look, the.
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Way they talk, the way they walk, any. Any number of reason women are blamed for them being celibate. You know, some are just very lonely and, you know, have a community online and where they can commiserate with other incels and, you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not alone in this world.
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We've been following incels for many, many years, but it really exploded on the.
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Scene when Netflix had their documentary series Adolescence at its core that was about incel ideology. We heard a tinge of it when.
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Brian Kohberger was first arrested for the Idaho student murders.
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He shared in similar ideology. He was never officially called an incel, but it really opened up the conversation.
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But suddenly it's here and we're seeing.
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It in real time.
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It's a very sad situation, right? You don't want your. Your kid to be sad, to be, you know, this mentally entrenched in this subculture that basically says, you know, that they're. They're not good enough. So you, you do want to recognize that not only so they don't come, you know, violent against women, but you don't want. You don't want your kid to end up this way. So it's important that we get into this stuff so that even mothers can start recognizing these things.
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Even as we're making this podcast now, Charlie Kirk was just assassinated. He's a conservative analyst, and his murderer allegedly was radicalized online.
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The why behind this? Again, we're all drawing lots of conclusions and how someone like this could be. Be radicalized. And I think that those are, those are important questions for us to ask and important questions for us to answer.
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That is why we're covering it now. Because it's happen here.
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It's the kid in the basement at.
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The house next door who comes from.
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A really nice family, went to college.
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Has been alone for way too long.
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And is suddenly sucked down the wrong path body. This is something very close to your heart. All of ours, frankly.
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It's such a complicated subculture now. These modern incel groups often gather on like forums like Reddit 4chan and like, they're having these discussions on the open Internet.
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B
Yeah.
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So a lot of the conversations in these forums are filled with, like, rage and anger, especially towards women that they see attractive, socially successful, you know, that even men. So the men are referred to as chads, and the women are referred to as Stacy's. And these are the men and women that are successful in life. They're dating, they're having sexual intercourse with people. They consider themselves like the nice guy. When you think of an incel, think of somebody that thinks of themselves as nice and like, but almost entitled to women.
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The chads are the men who are whatever percentage the incels perceive of men who get all of the women. And it's kind of this interesting dynamic. It's both a hate and an envy.
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Right.
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That's the scary part.
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The jealous rage.
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Yeah.
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The perfect intersection.
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Not all incels are violent. Some are just lonely people. And it is sad for them. You know, they feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world. They're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship. And the only friends they have are those on online that they've, you know, formed in these communities. The problem is that those communities are fostering that feeling and it's pumping them up and making them even more, you know, the rhetoric was making them more violent.
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It's a pretty violent ideology, though, to some extent.
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And guess what?
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On that little, like, forum, potentially there are some scary people who are kind of feeding off that as well, and air quotes, grooming these young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably a pretty radical group.
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But it's important to know that not every incel is going to turn out to be violent. All right, there are some interesting studies coming out about who incels are. The average age is the mid-20s, around 26 years old. They usually live with their parents or their grandparents. 25% do live alone. Only 4% of them are employed full.
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Time, 75% living with mom and dad or grandparents. And by the way, post Covid, everybody was, like, locked in their basements. If you were already experiencing some level of loneliness or you were feeling disinfecting, disenfranchised. Now add, you know, a year and a half, two years of isolation to the equation. There's an uptick, and I think it's obvious why.
- [10:08]
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Yeah, when. When covet happened, it was like kind.
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Of like the pressure cooker.
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It really kind of like expanded this movement. 58 of them are white 42% are people of color. 73% report moderate to severe depression. And they blame it on women for women not wanting them. You know, they're not socially attractive or they're awkward in some way or, you know, or there's excuse, excuse after excuse. And so they feel that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness. And that turns, that can turn into rage, which can turn violence. One more thing too. 48% scored at the highest level on loneliness scales@arrika alert.org which is interesting.
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I think the Bryan Coburger case, I think it's a real look at loneliness and it's worst case scenario. You know, he was an odd guy with very little social interaction in friends. Not that that justifies it obviously, but.
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If we're trying to unpack how to.
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Prevent these types of isolated killers on the, on the loose or in the making, it's important stuff that we talk about.
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In the course of our reporting and even anecdotally in our lives we found a shocking amount of people who've never even heard the word incest. That's why we took on this project. We want parents, friends and families to understand what could be happening and what danger signs to look out for. The intent is not fear mongering. We're going to look into crimes committed in the name of incels, share perspectives from different experts about INCEL ideology, the seriousness of algorithms and social media, and just who is at risk for being radicalized to understand all perspectives. We've infiltrated the INCEL community to gather personal experiences with self identifying incels. It's a complex issue and all aspects need to be understood to get to the root of the problem before we even begin looking for solutions. I spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell about his experiences in online INCEL forums.
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To get a better sense of INCEL community, I started to log on to different forums on different social media sites and I sort of discovered that there were a couple different continuous themes. One is the one that I think most people associate with the incel community, which is sort of very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women, towards people in power, towards men who they describe as chads, who have money and just, just get all the women. And then there's another group that I think is a little bit less angry and more depressed. People who are genuinely looking for connection and answers to the feelings that they're having, to the issues that they are facing. There obviously is some in between and there are people who express anger and frustration that you see and also looking for help but there really does seem to be this divide in the intel community between these two groups. And you really see it play out on some of these forums where there is just vitriolic anger at women, at society, at people with what these groups and these people believe have sort of all of the advantages of in the world that they, they hate them, they want them gone. They joke about death, they joke about rape. Obviously I had violent thoughts. I always held back, you know, in real life thoughts of like women that I did want to, you know, rape as a teenager. There was quite a few women that I did want to break their nose so they would be ugly and couldn't.
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Get a hot boyfriend.
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And then there's other, like I said, there's these other incels who they don't want that conversation. They want a conversation about why is their life lacking the meaning they think it should have. And a lot of that revolves around inauthentic or a lack of relationships. They're looking for a way to have some connection, but they're also stuck behind the keyboard behind computers. It feels like that's where they lack that sort of connection and they're looking for connection.
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I asked Connor if it seemed like the men simply felt more comfortable with the anonymity of being behind a computer screen or if they didn't like how they were being received in public.
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I think it's the way that they feel that they aren't received the way that they think they should be. There is this perception that I keep seeing in this continual theme which is that everyone else sort of gets the looks in the room in terms of like the positive looks, whereas I only get the negative looks or if they even bother to look at me. There's this perceived notion that like there is a group of people, sort of what they call the chads, the men who are, they get all the advantages. They have all the advantages. You know, they're muscular, they're full head of hair. And the incel community has like, you can see that there's just a lack of self confidence with a lot of these people. And the confidence I think is missing for a lot of different reasons.
- [15:22]
C
I mentioned learning about some self identifying incels, describing being out in the world as feeling like being inside of a video game versus feeling more alive when they're alone in their homes.
- [15:36]
D
There is this sort of feeling that their real life for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum, whether it's discord or the incel community forums or even Reddit to some extent. And then you also do see these themes where there are people who think the real world is sort of the fake world for them because they just, they don't feel comfortable in it. They don't know how to interact with people. You see this regularly on INCEL forums, which is that the real world is the inauthentic relationships and the online forum world are the more true, the authentic relationships. And that these online community forums are where incels can sort of be themselves without any of the social pressure that they would face out in the real world.
- [16:23]
C
I asked if there seemed to be a clash between the men going onto forums, looking for a glimmer of hope for their situations versus others spewing vitriolic hate speech.
- [16:36]
D
You sort of see these comments pieced together, which is like, the world is effed up, society's effed up, everything is screwed up. And then just screw the women, rape them. And then there's these other men. A lot of them are just teenage boys or young adolescent men and they're struggling, they're asking for help. They often don't have direction. There are some of these incels who want relationships and then these other ones are just like, screw it, it's never going to happen for me. I don't care. It's everyone else's fault. I can't change it. But ultimately there are also people who jump in there and are on these forums that are just like, it's never going to change for you. You are what you are. Don't try to change. The world should change for us.
- [17:15]
C
I asked Connor if anything specific stood out or surprised him during his time on the INCEL forum.
- [17:24]
D
I think what shocks me is the. It's not the level of just sort of awful discussions, racist behavior, sexist behavior, you know, just that you can sort of see anywhere on social media. It's the bouncing back and forth between the, oh, we're just joking. You know, this is just. We're just saying this for effect. And then there's other people who are like, no, no, we're really saying this. And you can see where a young, impressionable male can really get caught up in is this real? Should I be embracing this as real? Or is this just people having fun? And you can see this playing out in real time where there is this continual debate between, you know, we're just being stupid. And the other flip side of that is, oh, no, no, we're deadly serious. And these guys who commit violence, they're our heroes.
- [18:13]
C
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
- [18:16]
B
Foreign.
- [18:25]
A
This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.
- [18:27]
B
Facing a beauty emergency? Need a last minute gift? Well, don't panic.
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A
Sephora is now available for delivery on Uber Eats. You can now get all your beauty essentials delivered in as little as 25 minutes for the same price as in store.
- [18:39]
B
Plus treat yourself to $10 off when you spend $50 or more on your first Sephora order on the Uber Eats app.
- [18:45]
A
Order Sephora on Uber Eats today. Offer ends October 30th, 30th, one order per customer.
- [18:50]
B
Additional terms Apply SIAP for availability. Delivery fees may apply.
- [18:53]
A
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- [19:54]
B
We've all heard the stories. Missing persons, double lives, suspicious basements. But here's one mystery you don't need in your life. Why can't my kid learn to ride a bike? For a lot of families, it turns into a saga. Meltdowns in the driveway, scraped knees and frustrated parents Googling how to teach a kid to ride a bike without losing your mind. That's where Guardian Bikes comes in. Their bikes are lightweight, low to the ground, and built to help kids find their balance fast. Most are riding confidently in just one day. No training wheels, no tears, just high fives and I did it moments. It's everything. Learning to ride should be simple, smooth, and actually fun. So skip the struggle and start with a bike that's made to make it easy. Guardian bikes go to guardianbikes.com you'll save hundreds when comparing Guardian to its competitors. Plus get a free bike lock and pump a $50 value with your purchase when you join their newsletter.
- [20:51]
A
That's guardianbikes.com Now I'd like to introduce you to meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that available at@meaningbeauty.com this is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal. I want to take a moment to talk about something that impacts how we feel every day. Our gut health. If you've been dealing with sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight or poor sleep, your gut may need some extra care. Introducing Bioma, a novel supplement that contains everything you need for a healthy gut. Enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy and even smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. Just take two Byoma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Byoma Health and use Code betrayal to get 15% off your first order.
- [22:47]
C
On May 23, 2014, self described incel Elliot Roger went on a killing spree at the University of Santa Barbara in Isla Vista, California. He injured 14 innocent people and killed six more. Chang Hong, George Chen, Wihan Wang, Catherine Cooper, Veronica Weiss and Chris Michaels Martinez. The ripple effects of this violence is far reaching and for some lifelong. For this first episode we decided to begin at the ending and to look into the inevitable fallout after. Online radicalization leads to senseless violence. Here's producer Carolyn Miller speaking with Colleen Weiss, the mother the of of 19 year old Veronica Weiss. This is the first time she's speaking out publicly.
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I'm Colleen Weiss and my daughter is Veronica Weiss. She was killed by Elliot Rodger in Isla Vista, May 23, 2014. Veronica loved to be involved in everything. She liked to try new things. Her freshman year she played four sports and figured out she really wanted to Play water polo. So she then proceeded to play water polo every year throughout high school. She always made anything that we did fun. I also have two sons that were very close in age to her. They were just two and three years younger than her. And we would have people tell us that who has the best arm in the Weiss family? And they'd say, Veronica. So she was tough, too. She was, you know, she was a competitor and very fierce about protecting her friends and being a great friend. And her favorite color was purple. Oh, 100%. She made that known to us when she was 2 or 3, and she carried that forward. Everyone knew that that was her favorite color. She was just independent from a very early age. I remember when she was five years old, we were living in California, and she absolutely wanted to go visit her grandmother and her aunts in Seattle. So we put her on a plane by herself, and she got up there, and I just. I remember talking to her on the phone, and I asked her, do you miss me? And she said, oh, well, no, because I know I'm going to see you again. And she was always just in the moment, and that was just her. And it's just always kind of warmed my heart because I know that she was just enjoying everything that she was doing. Really loved life, friends and family, and very inclusive of any. Any type of person. There was no boundary or limits to, you know, who she would befriend or be kind to. You've never interviewed about her before, have you? I have not, no. Why did you decide to do it now? After 10 plus long years, I'm finally in kind of that acceptance and able to just really appreciate her. Her life. So I'm in a much better place. How about her brothers and her dad? Are they doing okay? I think we're. We're kind of all coming to that. It. It has been, I'd say, a long. I don't want to really use torturous as the word, but it's. But that's. That's how it felt at many points. Okay, so let's go back to that day in May 2014. Yes. How did that day play out for you? How did you find out what happened and Veronica was involved in this? Well, it was Memorial Day weekend, and we had a lot of plans that weekend. What actually happened is the weekend before that, my husband had some ski passes for Mammoth, and I had told her about it, and she just jumped at it and said, yes, I'll go with you guys. Just with me and my husband, her dad, but going to Memorial Day. And this is what will kind of, you know, you don't. You can't regret or question this, but most likely she might have come home Memorial Day weekend if she had. If we hadn't gone to Mammoth two weekends before. So it was Friday, Friday night. We're having a great time, holiday weekend. And we had actually gone to bed somewhat early. About 10:00 o'clock and, and about 11:30, I got a call on my cell phone and it was one of Veronica's sorority sisters. And she just said, I'm not sure if you know what's going on up here. There's been some shootings. And they just wanted to know, have you heard from Veronica? And I just said no. And I got a little bit more information. Of course we turned on the tv, started calling some hospitals. After I tried to call her multiple times. And I mean, right at that point, I knew something was wrong. I just, I knew right away that if she could contact us, she would have. And I knew she was right around the campus that night doing the sorority functions. So at that point, my sons had come home. And I just remember one of my sons saying to me, who would want to kill Veronica? Like, this is. Don't. This just can't. She's going to be fine. And so we, my husband and I got into the car and drove up to ucsb, or we drove to the hospital around ucsb. And there we found some of the sorority sisters who were there with one of the girls who had been shot, who was with Veronica, but there was no Veronica there. And at that point we were able to track her iPhone and we could see that her phone was sitting at one of the locations that they had indicated on the news that there had, you know, been a shooting. So we drove over to where. As close as we could to where the phone was and found a police officer over there, said what my daughter's name was, and I could just tell. He just looked at the name and just said, okay, well, you know, there's. We need. You can sit in your car and we'll come get you, you, you know, when we can. So it's just, I. I just told my husband, I know she's. She's dead.
- [31:07]
C
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.
- [31:19]
A
This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.
- [31:21]
B
Facing a beauty emergency. Need a last minute gift. Well, don't panic.
- [31:25]
A
Sephora is now available for delivery on Uber Eats. You can now get all your beauty essentials delivered in as little as 25 minutes for the same price as in.
- [31:33]
B
Store plus treat yourself to $10 off when you spend $50 or more on your first Sephora order on the Uber Eats app.
- [31:39]
A
Order Sephora on Uber Eats today.
- [31:41]
B
Offer ends October 30th.
- [31:43]
A
One order per customer.
- [31:44]
B
Additional terms apply. See app for availability. Delivery fees may apply. Goodbye.
- [31:48]
A
There's nothing like sinking into luxury@washablesofas.com, you'll find the Annabe sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable style, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop now@washablesofas.com Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [32:48]
B
We've all heard the stories Missing persons, double lives, suspicious basements. But here's one mystery you don't need in your life. Why can't my kid learn to ride a bike? For a lot of families, it turns into a saga. Meltdowns in the driveway, scraped knees and frustrated parents googling how to teach a kid to ride a bike without losing your mind. That's where Guardian Bikes comes in. Their bikes are lightweight, low to the ground and built to help kids find their balance fast. Most are riding confidently in just one day. No training wheels, no tears, just high fives and I did it moments. It's everything. Learning to ride should be simple, smooth and actually fun. So skip the struggle and start with a bike that's made to make it easy. Guardian bikes go to guardianbikes.com, you'll save hundreds when comparing Guardian to its competitors. Plus get a free bike. Lock and pump a 50 value with your purchase when you join their newsletter.
- [33:45]
A
That's guardianbikes.com Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I will I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon Leaf Stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that available@meaningful beauty.com this is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal. I want to take a moment to talk about something that impacts how we feel every day. Our gut health. If you've been dealing with sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight or poor sleep, your gut may need some extra care. Your gut plays a vital role in your overall well being because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and long term health. That's where Bioma comes in. This novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut. With every serving you get prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics that are science backed and third party tested so you can enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy, better focus and restful sleep. Sleep and even smoother weight management. When following a healthy lifestyle, just take two tiny Bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Bioma Health and use Code betrial to get 15% off your first order. That's Bioma Health. Code betrial for 15% off.
- [36:05]
C
We're continuing the conversation between producer Carolyn Miller and Colleen Weiss. Colleen Weiss is The mother of 19 year old Veronica Weiss.
- [36:14]
B
I remember we sat in the car close to the location almost all night. We knew what was going to happen to happen and they didn't tell us much other than Veronica was killed. There weren't really any details. It is so hard to remember. The only thing that stuck in my mind was one of the police officers said to me, this is the hardest part of my job. And I just thought okay, thank you. I'm sorry for you. You know, I don't know why that just stuck with me. And I wouldn't say I was Emotionless, but I just. I couldn't do anything. I just kind of sat there. Did you get the chance to see her after that? Well, they told us right away something like this is not like you see on tv. We have a way of identifying bodies without. You don't. You know, you don't have to come in. And I did not want to see her. I didn't. I didn't want any memory like that. And it maybe seems odd, but I am so glad that I never have to go back and have that picture in my mind, because I only have beautiful memories. And I know it was a terrible thing that happened to her. How was your husband and your sons that night? How did they react? I mean, my husband just immediately broke down. We went kind of straight home after this happened. We wanted to get home to the boys, and we just. I remember we just all got into our bed, and we were just kind of holding each other, just laying there. It just was terrible. The next couple of days after Veronica was killed, how. How do you all together get each other through it? Not very well. Not very well at all. I do remember I was in shock for, I'd say, at least a couple of days. And then we started having all these. This family coming in and people contacting us, and it was chaos. Knowing that the perpetrator that we still don't know anything about. Did you know at that point that he had taken his own life, that he had shot himself after? Yes.
- [39:14]
A
Okay.
- [39:14]
B
Yes. Okay. So we. We knew pretty quick. And I. That is one thing that I also. You find everything to be grateful for. I'm grateful that it wasn't unknown or that we had to go through a trial. Were you angry at all? I never had those feelings. I never. I never did. I. I know everyone has circumstances, and I just. I thought, this kid. I'm going to call him a kid. But he wasn't a kid. Well, he was very young. He was in so much pain. And I look and say my daughter was so happy, so focused on what she was doing and what she wanted to do, that it just. No, I did not. I didn't feel angry. I never had that. So with that, all media coverage, how did that affect your grieving process during that whole period? I felt like I was still in some kind of shock, and I just was going through the motions. They put together a memorial at Westlake High School immediately. I think it was the Monday after it happened, so we needed to go up to the high school, and it was just packed, and it was beautiful. What they did. And then. I know when we were leaving, I saw all the water polo girls all got in the pool afterwards, which was pretty cool. I read an article about that and how everybody showed up wearing purple. Yes, yes. In honor of her. How proud does that make you of Veronica? Oh, immensely. Immensely. It just. It was. I mean, it gave me a lot of warmth, and I know she would have loved it, too. So what was the hardest part of navigating that immediate aftermath? Many days of just not wanting to be around, not wanting to feel that pain, Just seeing how it affected the boys. And my husband and I just didn't know how we would ever go back to normal. I didn't know. I couldn't see a path forward. And it just felt very desperate. It's very hard. Let's get into what we know about Elliot Roger. Yes. How did you learn about him? Just by reading things on the Internet. And I remember reading a couple pages of the manifesto at one point, and again, just kind of turned away from that. I just. I spent many years where I didn't want to hear anything about him. I really didn't. So it has only been recently, in the last year that I've learned just how much he's revered or whatever it is. And again, that's just very sad. Very, very sad. He was considered what they call an incel. Yes. Had you ever heard that term before? No. No idea what that even is? No, not at the time. How much of that did you get into when you're learning about Elliot Roger? Very, very high level. I just wanted to focus on her memory. But you. You couldn't. Throughout the years, it became where you couldn't watch a movie or a TV show without it. It became like, oh, well, yeah, this is just part of our culture now. Yeah. So he committed suicide afterwards. You didn't get to get a guilty verdict. He didn't get a prison sentence. Did you ever feel robbed of that? Absolutely not. I thought that was probably the best ending for him. I knew enough to know how long he had suffered from different problems and never been accepted or just different things like that. And no, I do think about the people that have to face their son's or their daughter's killer in court, and that would be the last thing I would want to do. When there is a trial, you know, there's graphic photos that they show from crime scenes. And that was one thing you said you never wanted to see. I didn't. If I could just add, as a mother, you know, sometimes you question yourself, like I thought, what mother would not want to see every part of their child or what had happened to them or. So I questioned that for a little bit, but then had to go back to, well, no, this is me personally. This is. I have to deal with this. And I shouldn't feel bad about not wanting to do that and not doing it. You know, you said you have nothing but great, beautiful memories of her, and that's what. That's what's important. That's what matters. Yes. Yes. So knowing this. This world that he was in, and now he's become, like this martyr for this community because there have been other incidents where people have gotten very violent, there's been other murders and would use his name as, like, a hero. They looked up to him. How. How does that make you feel when you know that people are putting him on a pedestal for something so evil even? I mean, again, I. I feel sadness for those people. I just feel sadness for them, sadness for their parents. I mean, I could have a child that ended up being like that. You know, you don't. You would hope not, but you never know. And again, I just. It's. It's very sad, Very sad. A lot of people would be just mad and angry and cursing every which way. But you said. You said that you felt sorry for him. I mean, I think about. It seemed 247 for this person. I. I mean, you don't know that. But he was feeling desperate, sad. Just. I. I don't want anyone to feel like that. I don't naturally have that emotion. I do get mad, but at. At things. But when. When it comes to people and what they do, I mean, this. This life can be very difficult, and people experience very bizarre things. And this world is more and more challenging each day. And the Internet, and it's. It's very complicated. Do you keep any trinkets of hers around? I do. I do. Can I grab it? Yes, please do. Okay. So. I mean, her. Her freshman year, she wasn't good enough to play water polo at ucsb, which didn't bother her at all. Just a week before she died, she said, mom, I really. I'm gonna start swimming again, but I don't have a cap or goggles. So I said, well, just order them on our Amazon. Get. You know, get them. And I remember it was a week before when we went to pack up her room. It was so organized and neat, like everything was in it in its place. But I found her little sport bag with goggles and a cap that she already had, and it just like when she said she was going to do something, it just it was done and so I these are actually right by my bed. So it's like little things like that that really warm your heart.
- [48:26]
C
Next time on Incels.
- [48:29]
D
It is absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out.
- [48:34]
B
Only have online community.
- [48:36]
A
He had planned this. There's clear evidence at least a week prior including a note in his notes app on his phone entitled murder Suicide. Most of their anger, most of their.
- [48:49]
B
Hatred is actually reserved for the women.
- [48:53]
D
So they this idea of 666 six.
- [48:57]
B
Feet tall, six figure incomes, six inches.
- [49:00]
D
Plus, that's the ideal man.
- [49:03]
C
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram. Tstudios Incels is produced by Stephanie Liger, Gabriel Castillo and me, Courtney Armstrong. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller Editing by Jeff to music by Vanicore Studios. Incels is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Ready to hear more? Remember, you can get episode two now completely ad free and a whole week early with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
- [49:54]
A
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- [50:56]
B
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A
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A
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- [51:23]
A
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