Behind the Scenes

Summary

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Incels – "Behind the Scenes" (Dec 3, 2025)

Host & Producers: Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell
Podcast: Incels (iHeartPodcasts, KT Studios)
Episode Theme: A candid, reflective producer roundtable on what was learned investigating the world of incels, reframing stereotypes, and exploring the wider "manosphere" (digital male-centric subcultures). The team delves into their initial assumptions, unexpected discoveries, and the societal context that fuels these online movements.

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Overview

In this behind-the-scenes episode, producers and journalists of the podcast series "Incels" take listeners inside their investigative process and personal evolution. Through a roundtable discussion, they reveal how their views shifted, explore the root causes of incel group growth (particularly loneliness, disconnection, and algorithmic influence), and examine the links to broader issues of masculinity and online radicalization. The episode offers both introspection and analysis, seeking understanding and prevention rather than sensationalism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Explore Incels Now?

• Increasing Mainstream Attention:
  • Stephanie Lydecker discusses the "incel" term migrating from fringe forums to everyday headlines, catalyzed by high-profile cases and misunderstandings.

    "It's kind of been one of those things that we hear about but don't totally understand fully... Suddenly it was on the ticker of most news shows..." — Stephanie Lydecker (04:39)

• Safety & Education:
  • The team emphasizes the danger of these largely unmonitored online spaces, and the importance of understanding them to protect individuals and communities.

    "Not every incel... is dangerous. But these are dangerous places... Without us talking about it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves." — Stephanie Lydecker (05:53)

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2. Producer Preconceptions vs. Reality

• Stereotypes Challenged:
  • All team members entered the project assuming incels were predominantly aggressive, hate-filled, or violent.

    "My go in was every incel was sort of aggressive and hate filled." — Courtney Armstrong (06:51)

• Revelation of Sadness and Loneliness:
  • Through research and interviews, the producers primarily encountered men grappling with extreme loneliness, alienation, and disconnection.

    "This is a real story about loneliness... Who doesn't feel left out?... Now the target audience is young people." — Stephanie Lydecker (07:10)

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3. Connecting with Incels: Challenges & Surprises

• Barriers for Female Producers:
  • Gabriel Castillo notes it was initially difficult for female producers to establish contact with self-identified incels; men had more success in outreach.

    "...many of them were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I ended up taking the lead on those conversations." — Gabriel Castillo (08:27)

• Desire for Connection:
  • Those willing to speak were often eager to correct misconceptions and simply to be heard, not judged.

    "One of them even told me... the interview felt like shouting into the void. And except maybe for once the void wasn't feeding into their negative thoughts, it was just someone who wanted to feel heard." — Gabriel Castillo (09:27)

• "Normies" and Isolation:
  • Incels see themselves as fundamentally different from "normies," and crave genuine dialogue with outsiders.

    "Many of them opened up more than I expected... for a first time interaction." — Gabriel Castillo (09:27)

• Primacy of Loneliness:
  • The need for belonging and lack of connection is a key motivator for joining incel forums.

    "The fundamental issue is lack of connection... it is loneliness." — Courtney Armstrong (10:08)

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4. The Role of Looks Maxing & Online Forums

• Looks Maxing:
  • The team examined the intense pressure in incel spaces to change one's appearance ("looks max") not for self-improvement, but for imagined acceptance.

    "With looks maxing it's all about making themselves better for someone else that is not there." — Gabriel Castillo (03:44)

  • Online spaces allow for judgment-free interaction, but also foster echo chambers.
• Complexity Within Ideologies:
  • Gabriel learned nuanced distinctions—black pill, red pill, blue pill—exist in the community, challenging the generic "incel" label.

    "I also learned a lot about the nuances within these communities. The differences between black pill, red pill, blue pill." — Gabriel Castillo (11:16)

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5. Range of Personalities & Communities

• Variety in Incel Types:
  • Connor Powell observed that incel forums are not monolithic; there are angry young men, resigned older members, and everything in between.

    "There's a wide array of personalities under the banner." — Connor Powell (12:53)

• Darker Corners:
  • Certain forums are "the worst of the worst" in terms of misogyny and racism, but less toxic subgroups also exist on platforms like Discord and Facebook.

    "The main INCEL forums were way more vile and disgusting than I was expecting...The websites, they are way more frightening than I was expecting." — Connor Powell (13:27)

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6. Algorithms & Tech: Feeding the Cycle

• Algorithmic Targeting of Vulnerable Youth:
  • The team criticizes social media for serving extreme content to children, often before they seek it out.

    "...12 year old boys... don't need to go looking for this material, it goes looking for them." — Courtney Armstrong (14:27)

• Fear of "AI Supercharging":
  • Concern that evolving algorithms, especially with AI, will amplify exposure to harmful content.

    "If AI is the sort of next version of technology, it's almost like you're going to supercharge these algorithms... It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good, helpful content out of the AI algorithm." — Connor Powell (14:50)

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7. Bigger Picture: The Manosphere & Masculinity

• Expanding Beyond Incels:
  • The producers draw links to the larger manosphere—online subcultures selling a hyper-masculine ideal to young men.

    "The manosphere... is to some extent selling young men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger... strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what manhood is..." — Connor Powell (22:55)

• Influencer Impact:
  • Figures like Andrew Tate are not necessarily incels but appeal to a similar demographic by presenting a "successful" man template.

    "Andrew Tate is a complicated one... Is he preying on young people who really lack a man in their lives...?" — Stephanie Lydecker (30:30)

  • Many incels reject Tate, highlighting nuanced boundaries between these communities.

    "Andrew Tate is not an incel... that's a lot of red pill stuff." — Gabriel Castillo (32:06)

• Toxic Masculinity & Role Models:
  • The show underscores that shifting, often contradictory, standards of masculinity leave many young men lost and isolated.

    "Maybe there's an epidemic right now of young men who don't have a total clear vision of what that's supposed to look like." — Stephanie Lydecker (24:43)

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8. The Dangers of Looks Maxing

• Destructive Pressure:
  • Looks maxing, rather than fostering health, often worsens insecurity and self-loathing.

    "...it's not about self improvement for themselves at all... it's about presenting a version of themselves for someone who may or may not even be there." — Gabriel Castillo (32:50)

• Amplified Insecurities:
  • Harsh online environments quickly escalate mild insecurities into severe self-hatred.

    "You go there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself. And two clicks in you're having the Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous." — Courtney Armstrong (35:16)

  • The same standards that once haunted girls are now deeply affecting boys.

    "It's not just a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is now even Steven, and that is not something we want to be even Steven about." — Stephanie Lydecker (36:29)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Incels as "Loneliness Communities":
  • "This is a real story about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of the norm, which, frankly, is the norm." — Stephanie Lydecker (07:10)
• On Misconceptions and Connection:
  • "One of them even told me... the interview felt like shouting into the void. And except maybe for once the void wasn't feeding into their negative thoughts." — Gabriel Castillo (09:27)
• On the Dangers of Algorithms:
  • "It never forces content on you that will increase your mental sobriety." — Connor Powell (14:50)
• On Looks Maxing and Pressure:
  • "Just the word alone. Looks maxing. Like you don't actually fit in the world unless your looks are maxed." — Stephanie Lydecker (36:29)
• On Solutions and Kindness:
  • "Kindness counts. True wisdom comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in the world." — Stephanie Lydecker (30:30)
• On The Manosphere's Influence:
  • "They're just selling that two hour movie escapism, but they're selling that this is real life and how confusing that can be for young men." — Connor Powell (22:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:11 | Introduction to the incel phenomenon and producer roundtable begins | | 04:39 | Why explore "incels" now? Increase in mainstream attention | | 07:10 | Recognizing loneliness as the core issue | | 08:27 | Challenges in reaching/connecting with self-identifying incels | | 09:27 | Surprises in how incels responded, desire for connection | | 11:16 | Nuances within incel community: black pill, red pill, blue pill | | 12:16 | The spectrum of incel personalities and experience | | 13:27 | Viciousness of certain online forums, but variety of incel communities | | 14:50 | The threat of algorithms and AI amplifying exposure | | 20:06 | Youth vulnerability and lack of context | | 22:55 | How the manosphere "sells" a dream and impacts identities | | 24:43 | Discussion of toxic masculinity and shifting ideals | | 30:30 | Why Andrew Tate’s message lands — and his distinction from incels | | 32:50 | Looks maxing: what it means and why it's harmful | | 35:16 | Internet amplifying negative self-image; comparison to past pressures | | 36:29 | Male vulnerability to looks-focused standards |

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Original Tone and Style

The episode’s tone remains reflective, empathetic, and deeply investigative throughout. The hosts are careful not to sensationalize, focusing instead on understanding the human cost, contextualizing behaviors, and sparking honest conversations about prevention, responsibility, and societal change.

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Conclusion

This roundtable episode not only exposes the hidden realities of the incel phenomenon but also reveals the layered complexities of digital masculinity, algorithmic influence, and the universal drive for connection. The producers' vulnerability and candor underscore that addressing problems like incel culture requires understanding, vigilance, better role models, and genuine human connection.

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Transcript

[Stephanie Lydecker]

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[Courtney Armstrong]

He told me to keep my mouth closed. If I did say anything, I would come up missing like so many others.

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But then, right before trial, he was found dead, leaving countless questions behind.

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He couldn't have done this alone. I'm not going to say everyone in the department knew, but he's just one of many.

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[Courtney Armstrong]

From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Courtney Armstrong]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

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Incels will be added to the terrorism guide.

[Gabriel Castillo]

I see literally zero hope.

[Courtney Armstrong]

This is Incels, a production of KT Studios and iHeart podcasts. Season 1, Episode 12 behind the Scenes.

[Gabriel Castillo]

With Looks Maxing it's all about making themselves better for someone else that is not there.

[Connor Powell]

You must change. You are not acceptable to society. You're not acceptable to women. You're not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity, that could also be what triggers young people to feel like this is the place for them to learn.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios, to step back and reflect on what we've learned making the series. Stephanie Lydecker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down for a producer roundtable. We dug into everything, our own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that challenged us, and how the broader manosphere shaped the stories we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series and why now felt like the right time to do it.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Incels has been one of those projects that's been close to my heart as a company. We've heard the word incels for a really long time, and it's kind of been one of those things that we hear about but don't totally understand fully. And over the course of the last few years, it feels like it's one of those words that keeps popping up again and again and again, and suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like something that was very fringe and that nobody really heard much about. All of a sudden it was on the ticker of most news shows and maybe for reasons that I can't quite explain. Number one, Bryan Coburger's case. Listen, he's not an incel. He's never been identified as an incel. But it was something that hit the ether when we were covering that case, because that word came up so many times.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Kohlberger, who's serving four life sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students, Kaylee Gonzalez, Madison Mogan, Ethan Chapin and Zanna Kernodle. KT Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and three seasons of the Idaho Massacre podcast. It was a years long endeavor and.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Again, Courtney, you and I, we've been working on cases surrounding incels for a really long time. And suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look, we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's the spirit of what we do every day. This is one that I think we all need to know more about, understand better. And it's really something just to keep us all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that not every incel or someone who identifies as an incel is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an incel is going to be violent. We know that. However, when looking at a pocket of people on the dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places that are not really monitored. So without us talking about it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves or protect those that we love.

[Courtney Armstrong]

So when we talked about it, sort of preconceived notions and my go in was every incel was sort of aggressive and hate filled. And in the beautiful work that Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying incels, the depth of the sadness.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I will say too. You know, incels to me always had a violent underbelly. And I think now going through this journey, it's really showing. This is a real story about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel left out? Who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes, right? So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that it will get better. As adults we sort of learn this because we've been forced to, but now the target audience is young people. And I think now we can all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently and look what we're researching online. And frankly, what is finding us online. It's big business. We are the commodity. We are big business. What I really see though is there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised and left out. And therefore you want to belong at all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Gabriel Castillo, a producer at K2 Studios, talks about his perception of the topic of incels at the beginning of the series and goes on to explain how that's evolved over time.

[Gabriel Castillo]

I began on this project early on by reaching out to self identifying incels. Carolyn and I, another producer on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach and that approach made it much easier to connect and it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most of the self identified incels featured on this project.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Going into incels, did you have any thoughts or preconceived notions or expectations?

[Gabriel Castillo]

I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what an incel meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories, everyone I spoke with had a different path into the community and a different relationship to the label. There's a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand before this project.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Whether it's Lewis or Mr. East or New Cold Squid. Did anything surprise you? And speaking with them, I think just.

[Gabriel Castillo]

How much each one wanted to have a conversation, to just speak with what they would refer to me as a normies, but really someone who wasn't there to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know, and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up more than I expected for a first time interaction. One of them even told me at the end of our conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void. And except maybe for once the void wasn't feeding into their negative thoughts, it was just someone who wanted to feel heard.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Right?

[Gabriel Castillo]

So connection, yes, connection. A lot of these self identifying incels were really just seeking a connection.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I have to say that's what I feel like. I learned the most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue, as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not feeling like you're valued and therefore you don't know where to go to it, except for too many places that will echo and underline what you're already feeling.

[Gabriel Castillo]

And a lot of it is the online forums where there's not another face behind the camera. A lot of them I know did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them from forming a connection are their looks, where looks maxing and all that comes into place. And they start trying to change that to form the connection. And because it's judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates a barrier for that connection for them to happen, whereas someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not even care, you know, which is why a lot of these INCEL forums continue to grow.

[Courtney Armstrong]

With your time on the INCEL boards, was it what you expected or were you surprised by any language content, any takeaways?

[Gabriel Castillo]

I was surprised at how receptive they were to wanting to speak. And as soon as I introduced myself as a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to engage. A lot of them wanted to address misconceptions or some of them, you know, just wanted to share their story and their perspectives about and seldom. I honestly expected a lot of hostility, like I was going to be mocked or dismissed. But instead I think approaching with an open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the nuances within these communities. The differences between black pill, red pill, blue pill.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Investigative journalist and KT Studios producer Connor Powell weighs in on how his personal perspective has changed after working on this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INCEL forums as well as speaking with self identifying incels journalist and experts.

[Connor Powell]

Anytime you sort of see like a young man who is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of went along with the idea that oh, he's an incel. After researching talking to people who are self described in cells, I understand now that it's a little bit more of a specific term and I'm not using the word as flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And I think I've even said to a couple people like, like let's be careful how we use the word incel. It describes a very specific personality and set of issues that this person is.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Going through in speaking to the incels. Was there anything that surprised you with that?

[Connor Powell]

I spent a lot of time on the message boards as well trying to sort of get a feel and there really is a wide array of of people who are in that sort of incel categories. There's young that are sort of angry, there are older that are more, I don't want to say content, but are more sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't really expecting for there to be such a wide array of personalities under the banner.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on INCEL forums?

[Connor Powell]

The main INCEL forums were way more vile and disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and as X and sees a lot of things on social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The the incel platforms are, as far as I can tell, the worst of the worst. At the same time I was surprised that there were other communities of incels on Facebook, Discord and a couple other places that were way less racist and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if you are somebody who is struggling with either incel culture, incel life or self described incel, you can go sort of down two paths. You can find people who collectively want to improve their lot in life or you can go down the other path which is burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites, they are way more frightening than I was expecting.

[Courtney Armstrong]

You participated a lot in the episode where we talked about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly how it's been proved over and over? 12 year old boys, as an example can be easily fed this. They don't need to go looking for this material, it goes looking for them.

[Connor Powell]

The algorithms are really frightening across the board because as we know with like, it will force content on you that is going to get you upset. It never forces content on you that will increase your mental sobriety. And the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last couple of weeks after this project was if AI is the sort of next version of technology, it's almost like you're going to supercharge these algorithms and so like what are we going to be pushed? What types of answers to questions do we have? If you look at where technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms for social media, it's hard not to be really scared about what AI is going to produce in our lives because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms of what they're producing in the content. For social media. It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good, helpful content out of the AI algorithm.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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[Narrator/Ad Voice]

This show is brought to you by Corruption Uncovered, a new podcast from Roc Nation and its philanthropic Injustice division, Team Rock. For more than 30 years, there was an open secret in Kansas City, Kansas about a man who allegedly raped dozens of black women and terrorized them into silence. A detective named Roger Golubski.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He told me to keep my mouth closed. If I did say anything, I would come up missing like so many others.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

But then, right before trial, he was found dead, leaving countless questions behind.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He couldn't have done this alone. I'm not going to say everyone in the department knew, but he's just one of many.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

We'll tell you the stories of the women who survived and what happens next in their fight for answers on Corruption Uncovered from Roc Nation and its philanthropic Injustice Division, Team Roc. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Courtney Armstrong]

Connor raises an important question about the potential of AI supercharging, the push of the most harmful content to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Think about it. You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable, preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So I gotta be honest, even as an adult who works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear some of the darkest, scariest things every single day. It turns out I didn't know anything. I didn't even know the basics. And thankfully, through the research here and this podcast, I feel like all of us are wiser, are smarter and more informed.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the business model, it changes the way you see the entire online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility and prevention. What actions do we take? Who do we turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

How do we work with each other to better understand what our kids are doing? Whether you have a preschooler or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending too much time online, it's just information is power. And I think the spirit of this is to be proactive. And thankfully, we're discussing it honestly. We have to go to dark corners to really see what the answers are. And it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor. And little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere. And we're all impressionable.

[Courtney Armstrong]

The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having the information laid out in black and white. And then also what sat with me the most was how, like you said, this is all kind of really. These groups are happening everywhere in different forms, starting small and coming at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at the next generation in general.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody. We're not looking to regurgitate and blame, but it's really powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected. It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids. And I think that's the spirit of all of this, we are looking to be productive. This has been a very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere. And it's not just about incels anymore.

[Courtney Armstrong]

The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than I realized as a woman. My feed looks nothing like what young men are seeing and I had little sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's investigative journalist and KT Studios producer, Connor Powell.

[Connor Powell]

The manosphere, I think, is to some extent selling young men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what manhood is, with no exceptions and really no qualifications that this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe not all of manhood. And it feels to me like they're just selling that two hour movie escapism, but they're selling that this is real life and how confusing that can be for young men and even young women, I guess as well. I mean, they see this stuff and they, oh, this is what a man is. If you go down that path, you are only inundated with that. You're not being inundated by people who are strong and intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes, scholars as well. You're just on to the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma, fast cars, right? Like that's the path you go down.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like, we're going to take your picture and your life's going to be great.

[Connor Powell]

It's almost like what you see, having worked in like TV production, you see music videos where these rappers or rock bands are on the set of their music video and there's weapons and there's sunglasses and there's women and then they yell cut and all that gets taken away and then you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician. And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a music video for three minutes. And this is. Andrew Tate is selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only way to live.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Stephanie weighs in on what we learned about the manosphere. Toxic masculinity and how these forces shape the lives of young men today.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

These are words that get tossed around so commonly. Toxic masculinity. What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be masculine. These are things that we see in pop culture all of the time. But at its core, what does it mean? What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right now of young men who don't have a total clear vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look at some of the influencers in this world, and what they're tapping into is something very real, which is men want to feel masculine. They want to feel accepted. And the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed. And now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity, which again, is becoming sort of this catchphrase. But what does that really mean? And I think through this process, we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity, not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel like this is the place for them to learn. It's not. The place for them to learn is within the community of everyday life in person. And I think sometimes the men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that. And that cash ish, is costing society a lot.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.

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[Courtney Armstrong]

He told me to keep my mouth closed. If I did say anything, I would come up missing like so many others.

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He couldn't have done this alone. I'm not gonna say everyone in the department knew, but he's just one. One of many.

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[Courtney Armstrong]

Stephanie Leydugar picks up with her thoughts on the self proclaimed king of the manosphere. And why, when there's such a lack of positive role models for young men, it's not at all surprising that his message finds a large audience.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one. Listen, this man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck. So is he being charged incorrectly or is he preying on young people who really lack a man in their lives, Someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this guy saying, look at me, I have money, I have influence, I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape, women love me. Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be. But we got to remember, kindness counts. And true wisdom comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in the world. And that being online endlessly for hours and hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been, there's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard transition into the real world when your actual life feels like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to actually live their lives online. We've all had to. But imagine being a young person and now we're saying, oh no, no, no, no, you can't do that. The real world is out there, even though it wasn't for so long. So I think we need to give grace to this next generation and applaud them for navigating as best as possible and also give them the tools. And I think we're all doing that together, which is why I think this particular project has affected us all so much.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Gabriel Castillo brings a different lens to all of this. He's a producer on the series, but also a man in his early 20s, so basically he's living inside the very ecosystem we've been examining. Here's Gabriel.

[Gabriel Castillo]

From my own personal beliefs. I don't agree with the whole Andrew Tate Persona and stick, but I came in thinking that that's what an incel was. Those type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I think intel and knowing that it's more or so part of the red pill community. Speaking with a lot of self identifying black pillars and them telling me that's a lot of red pill stuff. Andrew Tate is not an incel, I think is kind of what really drew that fine line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major learning curve for me.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that surprised you?

[Gabriel Castillo]

What really surprised me is how serious this is taken. I assume people were just trying to improve their health or work on themselves. You know, like you see online people changing routines or going to the gym after a breakup to feel better. But in the incel community, looks maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all. You know, it's about presenting a version of themselves for someone who may or may not even be there. And it's less about personal growth and more about trying to fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense of connection.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Connor Powell picks up the looks maxing conversation and is followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Lydecker.

[Connor Powell]

The looks maxing and the trans maxing were two concepts and ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across. And I also just think it, it's sort of another data point of how disconnected people are in these communities and young people in particular, and how all of these concepts from social media are just really disruptive for relationships, really destructive for connection between human beings. And sometimes like part of life is talking to people, talking to your friends or family. And if your life is spent trying to achieve some sort of physical look so that it looks better on social media or tracks people, you can just see how that is really self destructive.

[Courtney Armstrong]

What I was struck by is the journalist, the portrait he painted was, you get sucked in a little bit in looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure and then you are just hammered by the world of the Internet. Telling you you're ugly, it can make things so much worse. It was sad.

[Connor Powell]

Not just that you're ugly, but then you're sort of also not manly enough. It's like you need to improve your looks, but you also need to toughen up because women only want an attractive tough guy. It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also attacking the way you act, the way you might feel about yourself. For these people who are looking for some health and beauty tips, you know, on the male side, they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and image crisis. This is unacceptable. You must change. You are not acceptable to society, you're not acceptable to women, you're not acceptable to whatever. Your aspirations are just so sad how.

[Courtney Armstrong]

How the Internet at large, you go there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself. And two clicks in you're having the Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous. And it's just, it's such a bad mirror.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

It's such an unrealistic mirror too. So I don't know that I would have survived this time as a young person. It was hard enough before we had computers. You know, you lack identity, you want to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you want to have the cash. Some of that's not completely realistic. And I think acceptance of where we are as humans and sort of digging in a little deeper than how great our hair is is an important factor. And listen, we used to say this even as young girls. Oh, all the magazines. Oh, the Cosmo magazines and now the Internet, it's making us all feel so small. And, yeah, it's hard to live up to that. And I think what we're seeing now is that men who may be young boys, who, who maybe weren't under that same pressure are really under that same pressure. And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I definitely did not realize how that had increased.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

You talk about looks maxing. Just the word alone. Looks maxing. Like you don't actually fit in the world unless your looks are maxed. Think about that. And like the truth is, that's inaccurate. Suddenly it seems like it's not just a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is now. Even Steven, and that is not something we want to be even Steven about. The level of equality that everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what this is. There is so much space in the world for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard work and consistency and determination. Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man. We're relying on this generation of young men to lead us into this better day.

[Courtney Armstrong]

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram. TStudios Incels is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo and me, Courtney Armstrong. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller Editing by Jeff Trois music by Vanicore Studios. Incels is a production of KT Studios and iHeart podcasts. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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[Stephanie Lydecker]

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[Narrator/Ad Voice]

This show is brought to you by Corruption Uncovered, a new podcast from Roc Nation and its philanthropic Injustice Div Team Rock. For more than 30 years, there was an open secret in Kansas City, Kansas about a man who allegedly raped dozens of black women and terrorized them into silence. A detective named Roger Galupski.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He told me to keep my mouth closed. If I did say anything, I would come up missing like so many others.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

But then, right before trial, he was found dead, leaving countless questions behind.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He couldn't have done this alone. I'm not gonna say everyone in the department knew, but he's just one of many.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

We'll tell you the stories of the women who survived and what happens next in their fight for answers on Corruption Uncovered from Roc Nation and its philanthropic injustice division. Team Roc. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ad Voice]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 247 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. Go to Dutch.com to get vet care that is always there for just $92 a year.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

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Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Could you be more specific when it's cravenient? Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made.

[Courtney Armstrong]

With real butter, available right down the.

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Street at am, pm.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am, pm.

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I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

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[Connor Powell]

Good stuff.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.