Black Pilled

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Incels" – Episode 2: Black Pilled

Podcast: Incels (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode Title: Black Pilled
Original Release Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Courtney Armstrong (with Maggie Freeling, Boysen Hodson, Dr. David Ley, and guests)

Episode Overview

This episode of "Incels" offers an unflinching and deeply analytical look at the inner workings of incel (involuntary celibate) communities, tracing their language, beliefs, psychological traps, online echo chambers, and devastating real-world consequences. The episode focuses on the concept of the "black pill," a bleak incel ideology marked by hopelessness and resentment, and highlights the human toll of online radicalization, with a core narrative exploring the murder of Bianca Devins and its aftermath.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Definition and Psychology of Incels

• Radicalization Trends
  • The episode begins by establishing how online radicalization, particularly among young men, is on the rise and coming under Congressional and law enforcement scrutiny ([04:18]-[06:10]).
• Toxic Masculinity and "Man Box" Culture
  • Boysen Hodson (Mankind Project) discusses "man box culture" — strict rules about masculinity (e.g., don't show emotions, always be tough) that foster isolation and vulnerability to radical beliefs.
    • "The more they adhere to dominance based, hierarchical, really unhealthy beliefs about women, the easier it is for them to get drawn into hating other people... or into self-harm and harm of others." (Boysen Hodson, [06:41])

2. Incels' Pill Ideologies: Red, Blue, and Black Pill

• Language as Community Gatekeeping
  • Dr. David Ley (Clinical Psychologist): The use of unique terminology creates group identity and exclusivity.
    • "Having idiosyncratic terminology... is one of the ways of building identity... secret knowledge and belongingness." (Dr. David Ley, [10:44])
• Red Pill:
  • Men recognize "the harsh truth" that they are victims of feminism and societal changes.
• Blue Pill:
  • "Ignorant" outsiders seen as accepting mainstream, progressive values ("sheeple").
• Black Pill:
  • The belief that inceldom is permanent and unchangeable, reinforcing hopelessness.
    • "The black pill... is a bleak, cynical view that inceldom is a permanent state that cannot be overcome... It's really an embracing of hopelessness." (Dr. David Ley, [12:20])
• Echo Chambers
  • Tight communities reinforce these ideologies, ostracizing dissenters.
    • "All of that is intended to shame and mandate loyalty to the echo chamber dialogue." (Dr. David Ley, [13:21])

3. The Language of Inceldom

• Key Terms:
  • Chad: Stereotypically attractive, desired man.
  • Stacy: Attractive but superficial woman.
  • Becky: Plainer, but still seen as more desirable than incels.
  • Ascend: When an incel gets a partner, but such people are often ostracized ("betraying incel identity").
    • "At first these guys were celebrated by their incel peers and then were horrifically attacked... for betraying the incel identity." (Dr. David Ley, [20:39]-[21:52])
  • Normie: Average person with conventional social/romantic success.

4. Online Platforms and Social Dynamics

• Where Incels Gather
  • Forums, Discord, and previously Reddit.
  • Discussions frequently spill over into mainstream and gaming platforms ([23:46]-[26:20]).
• Discord Deep Dive
  • Interview with "Chase," a typical Discord user, highlights how communities blend gaming and lifechat, with many users being socially or physically isolated.
    • "Most of their relationships exist through Discord... they socialize a little bit differently than the people you know in real life." (Boysen Hodson, [26:52])

5. The Real-World Cost: The Bianca Devins Case

• Bianca Devins' Story
  • Producer Carolyn Miller and Bianca's mother, Kim Devins, recount the 2019 murder, its deep online roots, and the subsequent harassment endured by the family ([33:46]-[58:45]).
  • The perpetrator, though not an incel, was celebrated by incel communities due to their shared misogynist attitudes.
    • "What's even more horrific is the images were also sent to the victim's family on Discord." (Boysen Hodson, [34:31])
  • Incels made memes of Bianca's murder and continually harassed her family online:
    • "They were making social media pages, you know, praising him as a hero and giving him the attention he was looking for while harassing Bianca's family and exploiting her." (Maggie Freeling, [46:23])
• Online Harassment and Legislative Response
  • Kim details their struggle to have the graphic images removed from major social platforms and their lobbying for "Bianca's Law."
    • "Instagram told the police... we just can’t do anything. It’s being shared too often. We just can’t stop it." (Kim Devins, [49:15])
  • Passed at the state level (New York), Bianca’s Law criminalizes sharing graphic crime scene images to cause harm, but federal action stalled.

6. The Echo Chamber Effect & Societal Responsibility

• The Cycle of Online Radicalization
  • The insularity and constant negativity of incel communities reinforce misogyny and dehumanization.
    • "You can’t tell me that, like, reading that doesn’t alter your brain at some point." (Kim Devins, [55:41])
  • "Most people would never be saying these things in public. No. Wouldn’t be allowed on TV or streaming services, any kind of cable networks." (Maggie Freeling, [55:56])
• Kim Devins’ Advocacy
  • Emphasizes regulation, monitoring, and parental involvement.
  • Shares the creation of Bianca's scholarship to honor her legacy by supporting students in adolescent psychology.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On black pill hopelessness:

  • "The black pill though, is somewhat unique to the incel community and it is a bleak, cynical view that inceldom... is a permanent state that cannot be overcome."
    — Dr. David Ley ([12:20])

• Mother’s warning about echo chambers:

  • "It’s very, very easy to get indoctrinated in these dark, evil websites. It alters your brain..."
    — Kim Devins ([55:41])

• On the aftermath of online violence:

  • "There’s no way to describe it because I already was just so broken. That was my baby. No one should ever have to see anyone, let alone their child, like that."
    — Kim Devins, on seeing images of Bianca ([48:37])

• On legislative hope and limits:

  • "We did pass a New York State law... but it’s just very limited because it’s just a state law... Ideally, we need international regulation."
    — Kim Devins ([49:15])

• Bianca’s enduring legacy:

  • "Be like Bianca, be kind. Don’t spread negativity on the Internet."
    — Maggie Freeling ([58:51])

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Timeline & Timestamps for Important Segments

• Incels and Online Radicalization – [04:18]-[06:10]
• Masculinity, "Man Box," and Isolation – [06:41]-[09:00]
• Pill Ideologies and Exclusive Language – [09:11]-[13:21]
• Concept of "Ascend" and Social Dynamics Within Inceldom – [20:29]-[22:14]
• Discord/Online Communities Explored – [24:08]-[27:30]
• The Murder of Bianca Devins and Its Online Fallout – [33:46]-[58:45]
• Effects of Harassment, Legislative Responses, and Hopes – [49:05]-[58:45]
• Final Words and Bianca’s Legacy – [58:51]-[End]

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Conclusion

"Black Pilled" is a harrowing yet insightful exploration of incel ideology, illustrating how language, echo chambers, and toxic masculinity fuel a self-perpetuating cycle of hate and despair. The episode’s in-depth interviews—especially with Kim Devins—give voice to the real human cost of online radicalism, while experts clarify the mechanics that keep men trapped in these subcultures. Ultimately, the episode is a call for greater understanding, better regulation, and compassionate intervention, anchored by the memory of Bianca and the advocacy of her loved ones.

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For further updates and resources, the show encourages listeners to follow its official Instagram.

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Transcript

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Boysen Hodson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan Coburger, who killed the four universities of Idaho students. Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development. Bryan Kohberger has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony.

[Maggie Freeling]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Boysen Hodson]

This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Christa has been sitting on death row. How does someone prove that they deserve to live?

[Maggie Freeling]

We are starting the recording now. Please state your first and last name. Christa Pike.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to unrestorable Season 2 proof of life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

[Boysen Hodson]

I am a loser.

[Maggie Freeling]

If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Courtney Armstrong]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point. Incels will be added to the terrorism guide.

[Dr. David Ley]

Police say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd killed killing 10 people.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge.

[Boysen Hodson]

Very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women and towards men who get all the women.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I just told my husband I know she's dead. This is Incels. A production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 1 Episode 2 Blackpilled I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller. Even as we write this script, the idea of online radicalization of all forms has been top of news.

[Maggie Freeling]

What we are seeing is people that are being radicalized typically are high in.

[Boysen Hodson]

What'S called the dark triad, which is Machiavellianism, narcissism and psychopathy, leading us to.

[Maggie Freeling]

Believe that this ideology had infected him.

[Dr. David Ley]

And had taken over.

[Boysen Hodson]

A lot of us are not immune to the danger of the kind of.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Radicalization that takes place. This goes all the way up to the Senate Judiciary committee hearing on September 16th. Here's Director of the FBI Cash Patel speaking with Senator Lindsey Graham. The data shows that social media is.

[Maggie Freeling]

Wildly out of control.

[Courtney Armstrong]

This guy's the FBI director.

[Maggie Freeling]

He says that social media is wildly out of control.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Online radicalization of all sorts is becoming more prevalent, Specifically as it relates to an uptick in incel ideology. Last episode we covered the basics of what a self identifying incel is. An involuntarily celibate man who often feels hopeless with his position in life and who can sometimes turn violent. Here is Boysen Hodson, communications and marketing director for the mankind project. He explains research going on in this area.

[Boysen Hodson]

There is really beautiful research out there from Equamundo and another organization called diverting hate that have all been kind of looking at these things. And what they see about men who get involved in the incel community is that the they are really attached to adhering to really strict gender roles around what it means to be a man. And the more they adhere to that kind of dominance based, hierarchical, really unhealthy beliefs about women, really unhealthy beliefs about people of color, a lot of that stuff. And the more that they get attached to these rigid, unhealthy ideas about what it means to be a man, the easier it is for them to get drawn into hating other people, to get drawn into self harm and harm of others. We talk about it as either dominance based masculinity or the man box culture.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We asked boysen to explain man box culture.

[Boysen Hodson]

The idea of the man box is that most boys and men that you speak to out there in the world, they know what they're supposed to do. They know what fits in the man box. Don't be gay, make a lot of money, keep your emotions to yourself, man up, don't hurt, don't share all of these kinds of things that, you know, little boys start embodying these things at four or five years old. They already know what's inside the box.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We spoke to Boysen about how these messages get internalized and what that does to the mindset of incels.

[Boysen Hodson]

So the messages that many of us heard when we were younger, and this is, you know, I'm in my 50s and I still remember these messages, right? Don't get vulnerable with other people, don't show your weakness, don't share your emotions, toughen up. A lot of these messages get internalized. And from those internalized messages, it is absolutely recipe for isolation. It is absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out, Only have online community and restrict your kind of sharing about what's real and true and vulnerable about who you are.

[Courtney Armstrong]

To better understand the different ideologies incels fall into, we first need to understand the terminology that's used, Starting with red pill and black pill.

[Boysen Hodson]

So there's the Red pill world where you've woken up in quotation marks to the fact that, you know, feminism has gone too far and men are really the ones who are being victimized these days. And that is backed up in the incel world by this idea of black pill. And the black pill science that they bring into this is really flawed versions of evolutionary science or eugenics that places human beings in very distinct hierarchies. So this idea of 666, 6ft tall, 6 figure incomes, 6 inches plus, that's the ideal man, right? And then every other gradation of society is kind of ranked based on that. So a lot of the incel ideology is based on really bad science that they call black pill that they believe is these are the women who succeed, these are the men who succeed. I'm not that I'll never be that.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I'm doomed for a deeper dive into black pill ideology as well as the blue and red pill ideologies that go along with it. We spoke to Dr. David Ley who describes the importance of incels having their own language. Dr. Ley is a clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author of multiple books. He also does training for therapists around the world.

[Dr. David Ley]

So, you know, first it's important to recognize that having idiosyncratic terminology, having a certain language and terminology that is native and unique to a community, is one of the ways of building identity. Because people that are outside the community don't know what these terms mean. And having the secret language keeps other people out. And it builds this idea of secret knowledge and belongingness by not only knowing the terms but using them. The whole pill kind of concept, you know, the red pill and blue pill, we remember that from Matrix. And you know, the red pill is when you reject society being the way you've been told it's going to be and you decide to see underneath the curtain.

[Courtney Armstrong]

The people who do not see underneath the curtain are considered blue pilled. This is someone who is not part of the incel community and is considered ignorant of what incels believe to be the quote truth. In the incel worldview, those who are blue pilled believe what we'd call mainstream ideas about relationships. That personality and emotional connection are important in attracting a partner, that sex and intimacy are not commodities controlled solely by women, and that gender roles in society are not unfairly skewed against men. Dr. Ley continues describing the bleakest designation, the black pill.

[Dr. David Ley]

The black pill though, is somewhat unique to the incel community and it is a bleak, cynical view that inceldom being an incel is a permanent state that cannot be overcome or altered by an incel. It's really an embracing of hopelessness, which is a unique component again of the incel community. That's one of the things that there's a lot of echoes around, which is you can't get out, you can't change this. And if you try to, you'll fail. And if you try to, you're not a real incel. You're only a real incel if you accept that this is your existence.

[Courtney Armstrong]

The concept of echo chambers came up often while producing this podcast. Most of us, to be honest, were unfamiliar. We asked Dr. Lei to explain what an echo chamber is in this context and what the implications are.

[Dr. David Ley]

The echo chamber component of any online extreme ideology group is intended to enforce rules upon what is said and how people behave in this community. And it also sets up these men that if they ever dare to question or go against the components of the echo chamber, they are viewed as unfaithful, as disloyal. All of that is intended to shame and mandate loyalty to the echo chamber dialogue. The reason it's an echo chamber is that it is intended to program that ideology into people's thinking.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Boysen Hodson]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Maggie Freeling]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Courtney Armstrong]

They literally made me say that I.

[Maggie Freeling]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her from lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Go in order to find someone to blame.

[Boysen Hodson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley. Feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or Wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. This is a tape recorded statement. Person being interviewed is Krista Gale Pike. This is in regards to the death of a Colleen Slimmer.

[Courtney Armstrong]

She just started going off on me when I hit her. I just hit her and hit her and hit her and hit her. On a cold. On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Christa has been sitting on death row. The state has asked for an execution date for Christa. We let people languish in prison for decades, raising questions about who we consider fundamentally unrestorable. How does someone prove that they deserve to live?

[Maggie Freeling]

We are starting the recording now.

[Boysen Hodson]

Please state your first and last name.

[Maggie Freeling]

Krista Pike.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to Unrestorable Season 2 Proof of Life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan Kohberger who killed the four United University of Idaho students.

[Maggie Freeling]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Boysen Hodson]

It was clear at that point he.

[Maggie Freeling]

Was out of options.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Nearly 30 months of silence until Bombshell development. Bryan Coburger appearing set to accept a.

[Maggie Freeling]

Plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.

[Courtney Armstrong]

No trial, no testimony.

[Maggie Freeling]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Counts, one of the burglary and then.

[Boysen Hodson]

Four counts of murder.

[Courtney Armstrong]

In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers. Why did the prosecution take this?

[Boysen Hodson]

They were holding all the cards.

[Courtney Armstrong]

How on earth could you make a deal?

[Maggie Freeling]

What message does that send?

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's the story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light Listen to Segregate Scandal, the Many Secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

For my Heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is the Turning River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor?

[Courtney Armstrong]

But in 2014, the youngest of the.

[Maggie Freeling]

Girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

While learning about the blue pill and black pill designations, Dr. David Ley also spoke to us about what it means to ascend.

[Dr. David Ley]

So, ascend is a term that the incels use to describe when an incel overcomes their incel nature and when the incel, frankly, is successful at getting a date or getting a girlfriend, getting a sex partner. And they describe that this is when he ascends past or out of his incel identity. But even though, and there have been a couple of, you know, relatively well known incel leaders who then, quote, unquote, ascended and did successfully get a date or a girlfriend. And what was fascinating in those cases was that at first these guys were somewhat celebrated by their incel peers and then they were attacked. Then they were horrifically attacked and shamed and just cut to ribbons in these online communities by their incel peers for betraying them, for betraying the incel identity. And so even though they have this term that you can ascend, the incels encourage each other against it because it would go against that black pill kind of idea that it's hopeless.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Then there's the language incels use to describe others. The quote, normies or normal people. Often normies refer to those with healthy relationships, specifically romantic and sexual ones. This brings us to the chads and the Stacy's for a visual picture. Barbie and Ken dolls, the Chad and.

[Dr. David Ley]

Stacy and Becky are these terms that the incels use to describe those men and women who are more qualitatively attractive and desirable. A chad is, you know, that that man who is, you know, perceived as being tall and successful and, you know, traditionally handsome and desired by women with social characteristics or qualities like wealth that will make women attracted to him and choose him over the incel. The Stacy is a more attractive female, but the Stacy is. Is oftentimes perceived as also being kind of d. Shallow. Becky is a less, you know, kind of classically attractive woman, but more. More the kind of bookish sort of female, but also still again, more attractive than the incel. And the. Again, there's. There's a tremendous amount of misogyny in the incel community and most of their anger, most of their hatred is actually reserved for the women. And not that chad. They don't talk about killing the chad, but they do talk the deceptiveness and the dishonesty of women, both Becky's and Stacy's, that they would choose those chads over other men such as the incels.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Another thing to look at is just where incels congregate. Part of the reason so little is widely known about the subculture is that they self select into different online spaces to speak openly among themselves. Here's producer Connor Powell, who has spent time engaging on incel forums for this podcast. There is this sort of feeling that.

[Boysen Hodson]

Their real life for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum, whether it's Discord or the Incel community.

[Maggie Freeling]

Forums, or even Reddit to some extent. Although Reddit doesn't have as many incels.

[Boysen Hodson]

On it as it used to because they've banned a lot of the language and the behavior that, you know, it used to attract.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Reddit is mainly used for community discussions with thousands of specialized forums called subreddits. Any of us might go to Reddit to discuss literally anything from the best medical shows to watch on TV to how to clean your windows. As mentioned, many incel conversations have been banned from Reddit dispute. Discord is another platform we've been hearing a lot about lately. We're also going to be investigating anyone.

[Maggie Freeling]

And everyone involved in that Discord chat.

[Boysen Hodson]

There's an increase in violent online groups using the app called Discord.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I spoke with Chase about Discord. Chase is in his early 20s, outgoing, with a healthy social life and a girlfriend.

[Boysen Hodson]

I used Discord for the first time probably my freshman sophomore year of high school. It was primarily used for gaming, but as I started to establish more friends on the platform, it then became more of an interpersonal thing, like a lot of people get on Discord to talk to people that they wouldn't necessarily see in real life. I have friends across the country that I keep up with on Discord that I might not even necessarily still game with actively, like maybe here and there, but it's primarily just something where it's a community based platform that I use to talk to people that I don't have any connection with in real life.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I asked Chase if while in the process of playing games and chatting on Discord, he only communicated with those he knew in real life or if he connected with strangers.

[Boysen Hodson]

Oh yeah, it's primarily strangers. And funny enough, like I have friends in real life that have introduced me to people on Discord that I've never met in real life that have then gone on to introduce me to more people and more people. And before you know it, you're a part of this 20, 30, 40 person discord and you don't know 95% of them.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I asked Chase what the discussion centered around.

[Boysen Hodson]

Honestly, especially as I've grown older, the Discord has gone well above and beyond just gaming now. We're talking about politics, we're talking about social relationships, we're talking about like what people are doing in their free time, what their interests are. It goes way beyond gaming. And it's to the point now where I can say that I have a very solid grasp of the types of people that I'm dealing with strictly through Discord without ever having actually met them.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I asked Chaste if he'd encountered conversations that turned volatile.

[Boysen Hodson]

Absolutely. And I mean, I'm not even going to lie. Most of the people on this Discord are older guys or just like guys my age and they're strictly gamers. And a lot of these people, the farther and farther I get removed from the people that I know in real life, the more people that are different that I'm meeting, a lot of which are people that don't really have interactions with other people in real life. Like a lot of these people, most of their relationships exist through Discord or through online platforms. And it's, it's very obvious when you're interacting with those people because they socialize a little bit differently than the people that you know in real life.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Lets stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment. All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Courtney Armstrong]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know A story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Boysen Hodson]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Maggie Freeling]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.

[Dr. David Ley]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Maggie Freeling]

That y' all said.

[Courtney Armstrong]

They literally made me say that I.

[Maggie Freeling]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her from Lava for Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Go in order to find someone to blame.

[Boysen Hodson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan Coburger who killed the four University of Idaho students.

[Maggie Freeling]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Boysen Hodson]

It was clear at that point he.

[Maggie Freeling]

Was out of options.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development. Bryan Kohberger appearing set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start. No trial, no testimony.

[Maggie Freeling]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal counts, one of burglary and then four counts of murder.

[Courtney Armstrong]

In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers. Why did the prosecution take this?

[Boysen Hodson]

They were holding all the cars.

[Courtney Armstrong]

How on earth could you make a deal?

[Maggie Freeling]

What message does that send?

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

This is a tape recorded statement. Person being interviewed is Krista Gale Pike. This is in regards to the death of Colleen Slimmer.

[Courtney Armstrong]

She just started going off on me, but I hit her. I just hit her and hit her.

[Maggie Freeling]

And hit her and hit her.

[Courtney Armstrong]

On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction is Krista has been sitting on death row. The state has asked for an execution date for Krista. We let people languish in prison for decades raising questions about who we consider fundamentally unrestorable. How does someone prove that they deserve to live?

[Maggie Freeling]

We are starting the Recording now.

[Boysen Hodson]

Please state your first and last name.

[Maggie Freeling]

Krista Pike.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to unrestorable Season 2 proof of life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ. My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out. This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Elena exposes the man behind the cloth and the sister that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the Mini secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

For my Heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is the Turning River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Incel chatter can be hate filled, menacing and threatening. In what might be the absolute worst instance of what can happen, producer Carolyn Miller spoke with Kim Devens. Kim's 17 year old daughter, Bianca Devins was tragically killed. Her killer then took brutal pictures of Bianca's corpse and posted to incel groups. 17 year old Bianca Devins of Utica was found dead in a wooded area.

[Maggie Freeling]

At the end of the street when.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Police arrived on the scene.

[Maggie Freeling]

The suspect, Brandon Andrew Clark of Cicero.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Laying on top of the tarp covering the body. In July 2019, the social media platform Discord was buzzing about a photo that appeared to show a dead young woman.

[Boysen Hodson]

Her killer posted the images of her body online and they soon went viral. But if that wasn't horrific enough, the images were also sent to the victim's family on discord.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's fairly common for people to post gore and disturbing images just to sort of get a rise out of people.

[Courtney Armstrong]

The image was shared, turned into memes, and used to harass the Devens family in an UN Online campaign that goes on to this day.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Kim Devins. I am the mother of Bianca Devins, who was murdered in July 2019. I don't want to say his name. Okay, then don't say it. Bianca was. She was an amazing person with so much potential. She was 17. She had just graduated high school. Two weeks prior to her death, she had plans to pursue a degree in psychology. She wanted to work with adolescents because she herself struggled with some pretty severe mental health issues. She was very artsy. She was into music and art. She especially liked digital art. My favorite memories are just our times of us being together. Like, when I think of Bianca, I always think of, like, she was always by my side. She was definitely, you know, my little best friend. Like, since she was little, she was always attached. Was she an only child or did she have any brothers and sisters? So she has her younger sister Olivia, and then she has Maddie, who is now eight. And she has a stepbrother and two stepsisters. She's the oldest of everyone. So she had just graduated from high school and she wanted to go to college, and you said she wanted to go into psychology. She was going to start at her community college. So Bianca was a young senior in high school. She was still, you know, 17 and would have turned 18 in the fall. So she wasn't ready to leave home yet. So she was. Had decided she wanted to do her first two years at community college, and then she would transfer to a four year school. But she wasn't ready to leave me yet. So Bianca, you never knew what kind of, like, aesthetic she was gonna have from day to day. She often dyed her hair in the middle of the night. We never knew what we were gonna wake up to. Color hair. She was 17. She was just kind of finding herself. She was just very much a free spirit, but confident in herself. Like, she knew she kind of marched to the beat of her own drum, but had confidence in that. You don't have to say his name. I'll say it. She knew Brandon Clark. Would you consider them friends? They were good friends. We all knew him. You know, she'd introduced him to everyone in the family. They hadn't known each other for like, too long. But it was a few months, and, yeah, they were good friends.

[Courtney Armstrong]

On July 13, 2019, Bianca went to a concert with Brandon Clark. He murdered Bianca in the early morning of July 14th. It's been widely reported that Bianca met up with a male friend of hers, Alex, at the concert, that the pair shared a kiss, and that somehow it set Brandon off and led to the murder. We ask him to clarify the events of the evening.

[Maggie Freeling]

No, that is a misconception. He had planned this very clearly. There's clear evidence at least a week prior, including on a note in his notes app on his phone from July 11th entitled Murder, Suicide. And he had a list. He makes lists for, like, everything. I mean, down to, like, his favorite cereals they found in his jail cell, a list of. So he. There was a list that was created on July 11, and there was other evidence prior to July 11 of his planning. If he was planning this, did he ever have a motive as to why? No. He still maintains it was just extreme emotional disturbance. He has never given us a why. If we had gone to trial, the motive presented by the prosecution would have been number one. He was just obsessed with murder. And it was something that he researched a lot and, you know, read up on a lot of different serial killers and, you know, murder cases. And he was very jealous of Bianca. She had this really bright future. She just kind of had everything that he didn't and that he wanted. Part of the motive would have been like, if I can't have you, no one can. Because Bianca had made it very clear that they were just friends, and he definitely wanted more, and she didn't. She just wanted to be friends. So that was definitely another part of his motive, was extreme jealousy. And if I can't have you, no one can. One of my vivid memories is sitting down with the police at the police station and them telling me there were no red flags, because I was like, what did I miss? I did not see anything. I never would have expected this. And they were like, there really weren't any red flags that you could have seen. And it wasn't necessarily this concert or any type of event. It was just, he's a murderer, he's evil. And if it wasn't your daughter, and if it wasn't, you know, after this concert, it would have been someone else. Another time.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We asked him to walk us through what happened at her home the morning of July 14th.

[Maggie Freeling]

I was woken up by my daughter, Olivia, who was 15 at the time, and she said, the police are here. Something about Bianca. It Was like a little after 7am so she's just woken up kind of confused. They presented that they were coming for a welfare check. That first, you know, we're saying, Bianca, your daughter, is she here? And then they asked me if she went to a concert and then said that he had posted some concerning things on the Internet that he may have hurt her. What happened after that? At the time that they came to my house, the police were also getting calls from people in the Discord server where the picture was originally posted. And then they, I know that they received a call from his aunt who he had called after the murder. He had called and left several messages on family members phones. And then at some point while they were still at my house, he called 911 himself. In the meantime, while we were trying to figure this out, you know, we were all going through our phones. Bianca's Instagram was logged into my phone. So I was going through her messages to try to find messages between him and her to see if there was anything that I could find. And as we were doing that, my best friend lived with me at the time and she saw the picture on Instagram and brought it out to my father who was outside talking to the police. So my father and my friend knew pretty early on that most likely she had been killed. He took a photo of her and posted it online. Yes, he took several. Yeah. And he did that right away. Yes, he recorded the entire thing. And then he did take some still photos, posted that on her Discord server and then he moved her out of his car, covered her with a tarp. He took several photos. He posted to Instagram and Snapchat, you know, with her body covered in the background with the knife of himself. He spray painted may you never forget me on the roadway in front of his car. He started a fire and like tried to burn a laptop and a hard drive and some other things, really kind of like try to make this as sensationalized as possible, really, you know, the most attention seeking as he possibly could. And then he made sure to call 911 himself. I think the police knew. We're trying to confirm things before telling us, but we knew that something had happened to Bianca. And Olivia's friend immediately came over and around the same time that the police told us that they, you know, they found him and they found, you know, a woman that matched Bianca's description and they believe it was her. Olivia's friend. I just heard this, like, I've never heard such a scream in my life. This like guttural Just horrible scream. And Olivia's friend had been sent the picture on Instagram. She was 15 at the time, too. He tried to commit suicide. He thought it was going to be a murder suicide. And when they got there, he attempted to slit his own throat. So he waited for the police to show up before he did that. He took pictures laying on top of her, waited for the police to show up, took a picture and post, like, as he was slitting his throat, took a picture and posted it to Snapchat. And then as they were wheeling him away in the ambulance, he was asking the police how many news stations had picked up the story. Oh, my God. So when I say I don't want to give him the attention that he's seeking, it's like every single thing he did was to get as much attention on him as possible. I can imagine you guys are just losing your minds about all the photos that were posted and the images that are being circulated. What did that do to your grieving process? I just think we were so much in shock and disbelief that, like, this had actually happened to her, like, that he had done this to her. I don't think we really processed that her picture had gone viral. And, you know, it was a few days after. And then the police had told us, like, you know, we are getting, you know, they're just coming in so fast. Like, Instagram and Facebook are just telling us, like, we don't know if we can stop this. Like, people would tell me, Bianca's trending and, you know, rip Bianca Devins was trending. And it just, none of that really made sense to me at the time.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Like many, if not most teenagers, Bianca spent a lot of time online on various platforms, including Discord. That's where the death picture was originally posted and began its insidious circulation propelled by incels. We asked Kim if she knew at the time what an incel was.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes, it was a term Bianca used. I mean, I wouldn't say she used it often, but once in a while, you know, Bianca just telling me about, like, things going on in her Internet groups and with her friends. You know, I was familiar with the term incel. You know, she would tell me about, like, incels on 4chan posting about her. Bianca represented everything that incels hate. Beautiful, confident, she oftentimes would help other young girls her age. Recognized these incels were trying to groom them and, you know, get them away from them, got the incel abuse. So the incel community on these, you know, kind of dark websites like 4chan and some Discord servers. Like they already hated her to begin with because she thwarted their plans and she searched for everything that they hated. They typically hate strong, independent women. So, yeah, I was familiar with the term at the time. I've spoken to several experts and incels and psychologists. He's not necessarily considered an incel because he did have girlfriends. He had had other girlfriends and Bianca and stuff. Murdering Bianca. These incels took Brandon and put him on a pedestal. He was now their hero because, you know, he took out this E girl.

[Courtney Armstrong]

An E girl stands for electronic or Internet girl. Popularized on social media platforms. Often E girls have distinctive fashion aesthetics that might blend emo and anime styles, frequently paired with vibrantly dyed hair and winged eyeliner.

[Maggie Freeling]

The thing that they hated, you know, this one particular E girl that they especially hated, I think a lot of experts agree that we wouldn't consider him and incel at that point. He did have some of the tendencies and, you know, ideology, but what he did and then the way that he posted all the pictures, brought out all the incels and the spread of Bianca's picture was the incels and, you know, the messages, the horrific messages that friends and family were receiving, that was all. All of that harassment was coming from the incel community. I mean, they were making social media pages, you know, praising him as a hero and giving him the attention that he was looking for while harassing Bianca's family and exploiting her. And do you still get those to this day? I do. Definitely not as often, but every once in a while, like, you just never know when you're gonna find a post. Someone's gonna tell you about a post, when you're gonna get a message. But even, you know, to this day, now that her, you know, the older the kids, youngest kids are now 8, 14, 15, 16. So now it's just this constant fear of, are they going to come across the picture? Are they going to come across these posts with. These people are saying horrible things about their sister and that she deserved it. I mean, to this day, if you go on Bianca's Instagram, there's comments saying that she deserved it and just saying awful things. I didn't see the picture for about a year and a half. Anytime there was a notification on my phone, someone else picked up my phone first. And then about 18 months after her passing, I was just scrolling on my phone one night and I got an Instagram notification and the profile picture was the death photo. What did that do to you mentally? There's no way to describe it because I already was Just so broken. That was my baby. No one should ever have to see anyone, let alone their child, like that. So he goes to trial, he does get found guilty, and he got 25 years to life. Do you feel that you got justice for Bianca or that. Was that enough for you? No, I don't think there's justice in this situation at all. There's no bringing her back. Even if he was able to be charged with first degree murder and, you know, was sentenced to life without parole, I don't feel that's justice. I don't feel, I don't know, like, yeah, okay, he's gonna spend the rest of his life in prison. I felt more justice. When Bianca's law was passed in New.

[Courtney Armstrong]

York State, we asked Kim to explain Bianca's law as well as who helped her make progress with.

[Maggie Freeling]

A couple weeks after Bianca's death, we started tracking how many times these messages were being sent to us, how many, like, we literally had Excel spreadsheets. And we were tracking where they were, you know, where they were being uploaded to, who they were being sent to, how long it was taking for them to be taken down, you know, if they were being reported, what was the outcome of the report, the response. And so we contacted our local congressman. This is just something that really rocked our community. And he had brought up, you know, we went to him for help because we could not get a hold of anyone at Instagram or Facebook. And they were the main social media platforms that were allowing these pictures to be shared. I know that within, like, the first week, Instagram told the Utica Police Department, like, we just can't do anything. It's. We're just being flooded with the pictures. It's being shared too often. We just can't stop it. They just really overstated what they did, what they were going to do, you know, to prevent the pictures from being spread. They never really followed through with anything, you know, and they just, they kind of always said, well, you know, our technology, it can't, you know, catch everything. So now you have this congressman on board. Yes. So what does he get started? He introduced a bill for a federal Bianca's Law. And tell us what Bianca's Law is. So it's changed over time. One of her legislative writers actually wrote up, drafted a really, really good, in depth version of a federal Bianca's Law that would, you know, have carve outs to repeal section 230 so that these companies would be held liable if these companies are aware of an offending picture that goes against their guidelines. And it would be, you know, as defined in this bill, they are then liable for making sure that it's not shared on their platform. It would also create a parent's bill of rights. And this basically would force the companies to set up a centralized crisis center. Like I said, when this happened to us and these pictures were spreading and going viral, I was very lucky that I had a personal connection to someone in power. Most people don't have that. And these companies really do need to have a designated crisis center that. So that you can speak to someone outside of the in app, reporting that you're just reporting to a computer. And it would not only apply to graphic photos, you know, child pornography, child grooming, things like that. And then it would also make it a crime, and there would be some, you know, civil liability for people that are sharing these photos. So on the federal level, what happened? Nothing. It got dropped, unfortunately. When Biden was in office, he had task force dealing with social media regulation. He had social media task force. It was a part of his violence against women task force. And I've had several conversations. We've all seen that. You know, the social media hearings in Congress, now that Trump's taken over, unfortunately, that has all kind of gone away. Even Instagram and Facebook, they've repealed a lot of their community guidelines and regulations. So, you know, we've really taken a lot of steps backwards. We did pass a New York State law, which is. It's very limiting because it only applies to New York state. So basically, if that something's being shared within New York State, and that is called Bianca and Caroline law, that makes it a crime to share crime scene photos, any kind of graphic crime scene photos with the intent to harm. So that, I mean, that's always. That's very encouraging. But it's also. It's just very limited because it's just a state law. I mean, ideally, we need international regulation. And that's where I really felt like we had some justice. Like, okay, we're doing something. We are, because that's automatically. Like, when this happened, I just went into Mama Bear moan like, okay, we're not gonna have her more exploited in her death. Like, I still have to protect my daughter. And by working on laws so that other people don't have to go through. What we went through and we are still going through was where I found some justice. And I felt like we were, you know, actually doing something for Bianca. It's definitely something I will always advocate for. And it's hard to see the harassment online. It is hard to See people saying negative things and just really vile things about your daughter. You know, my mom always used to tell me, like, consider the source. You know, do we really care what these incels in, like, the basements are, you know, with no life are saying? Right. Like, definitely with the Internet. I've seen the worst parts of the Internet, but the best parts of the Internet and the people telling me how much my daughter helped them even in her death, like, the message that she's in her spirit and how much, like, hope people are getting from her story and from, you know, seeing things that she's written, her videos, that definitely outweighs the bad. And that in our, like, darkest, worst times, that is definitely what helps carry us through. And my biggest piece of advice is to just watch your kids and know what they're doing. Bianca and I were very close. I monitored both my children's social media. So I. I'm not going to say I would never say that. I always knew exactly what she was doing. She was 17. Like, she knew how to hide things exactly everything she was doing in the Internet. But I was pretty knowledgeable about the Internet, the different websites, the different apps, what was going on. And I think that that's like the biggest message with your kids is just, the Internet can be a great place, but it also can be very dangerous. So it's very, very easy to get indoctrinated in these dark, evil websites. And, you know, these intel websites, they're just. Yeah, it's stuff that you can't even imagine that, like, that people are talking about and like the theories they come up with in the ideals that they have and the messages they're spreading, it alters your brain just as like someone that you would think, right. Is like your average normal person. Just. You can't tell me that, like, reading that doesn't alter your brain at some point. And if you are reading it enough and then you start, like, connecting with that.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Kim is talking about echo chambers, which Dr. Lay described to us earlier in this episode. What happened to the Devens family is a prime and hideous example of what constant negativity and violent messages with no escape can do.

[Maggie Freeling]

And that's the problem with the Internet is you would never be talking about this stuff out in public. Most people would never be saying these things in public. No. Wouldn't be allowed on TV or streaming services, any kind of cable networks.

[Courtney Armstrong]

It's.

[Maggie Freeling]

While I knew, I personally knew how special my daughter was, it was really, really nice to see how special she was to the world. And you Know, even to this day, I still get messages. And that's amazing to see. You know, she really is still making an impact on people all over. I hate when people, as they said it a lot in the beginning, well, just get off the Internet, stay off social media. But why, why should I not be able to get supports? Like, there are so many good support groups on Facebook, you know, for parents that have lost their children or grief groups, and especially through Covid, you know, Covid happened just a few months after her passing. And why can I not connect for support or stay in contact with my family? Just because. Because there's a certain set of evil people that want to ruin things. So I always hated that when people were like, oh, just stay off. No, why don't we regulate it and make it safe for everyone? It just needs to be safer. I think our laws have not caught up to the technology in the times. I mean, just as recently as the Charlie Clark murder, no one needs to see someone getting shot, right? Even like the news channels that were showing like the blurred out video, you can report on news without having to show something that graphic. Like, I feel like people have just become so desensitized and it's just, it's things like that, it's just not necessary. I don't, I don't understand the sensationalism and how people just don't think anything of watching someone get shot and die. I don't understand it. But it definitely, you know, our society has just become way too desensitized to violence. So yes, we need regulation, we need laws. I don't know that I'll ever accept it. How do you accept that your daughter's never coming home? You know, this 17 year old healthy girl and I don't know, I don't know. I think that we just survive each day. Was there also a scholarship formed in Bianca's name? Yes. So we formed a scholarship and the scholarship goes to a college student at our local university that is pursuing psychology and specifically with the intent to work with adolescents. So kind of a way to help people to achieve beyond dream.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Finally, we asked Kim if she had any final ways she'd like Bianca's memory to be carried on.

[Maggie Freeling]

Be like Bianca, be kind. Don't spread negativity on the Internet.

[Courtney Armstrong]

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram. TStudios Incels is produced by Stephanie Lyda K. Gabriel Castillo and me, Courtney Armstrong. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller. Editing by Jeff Trois Music by Vanicore Studios Incels is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Host compensated for their time. I used to play team sports and shared a locker room with a whole lot of women plus 14 roommates in one college house. I still text, call or see so many of those women regularly. We talk about everything, even breast cancer which has affected several of my friends. Breast cancer has impacted all our lives in one way or another, so we know talking about it is important to share, understanding and to keep everyone updated. If you or someone you know was previously diagnosed with HR positive HER2 negative early breast cancer and went through treatment, you might be surprised to learn that it could come back. That's why I want to tell you about a breast cancer treatment called Kiskali. Kiskali ribociclib 200 milligram tablets are taken with an aromatase inhibitor. It's for adults with HR positive HER2 negative stage 2 or 3 early breast cancer with a high risk of recurrence and it can help reduce the risk of cancer coming back. In a clinical study at three years, 91% of people taking Kiskali plus an aromatase inhibitor were cancer free versus 88% taking an aromatase inhibitor alone. Individual results may vary. Kiskali may cause serious skin reactions, liver problems and low white blood cell counts that may result in serious infections. Life threatening lung problems and abnormal heartbeats can occur. Your doctor should test your heart and blood before and during treatment. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening cough, chest pain or dizziness before taking Kiskali. Tell your doctor all your medical conditions, medicines you take and if you're breastfeeding, pregnant or planning to be as it can harm an unborn baby. Common side effects include nausea, headache and tiredness. It's all about doing more today to help protect your tomorrow. Visit kiskali.com I know it's tricky to spell, so that's K I S Q A L I to learn more and ask your doctor if Kiskali is right for you.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Boysen Hodson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan Coburger, who killed the four University of Idaho students. Nearly 30 months of silence until Bombshell development Brian Kohberger has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony.

[Maggie Freeling]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Boysen Hodson]

This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Boysen Hodson]

Sacred Scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Alena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season she's telling her story.

[Courtney Armstrong]

When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almaser, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

[Boysen Hodson]

Surviving meant hiding. Escaping. Took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of martial arts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Christa has been sitting on Death row. How does someone prove that they deserve to live?

[Maggie Freeling]

We are starting the recording now. Please state your first and second last name. Krista Pike.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Listen to unrestorable season two proof of life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.