One Shot at the Market

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Incels – "One Shot at the Market"

KT Studios & iHeartPodcasts | October 15, 2025

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Overview

This episode of "Incels," titled "One Shot at the Market," delves deeply into the personal realities and mental health struggles of men who identify as incels (“involuntary celibates”), exploring first-hand accounts, expert insights, and the origins and misconceptions of the community. Through sensitive interviews with three self-identified incels—Mr. East, Sven, and New Cold Squid—as well as the clinical perspective of Dr. Le, the episode highlights the human cost of isolation and resentment, as well as the urgent need for empathy over judgment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Are Incels? Definitions, Identity, and Misconceptions

• Incels: Men (mostly) who identify as unable to form desired romantic or sexual connections.
• Misunderstandings: The term has been distorted into a catch-all insult and conflated with misogyny and violence, which Mr. East and others argue is not always accurate (08:02, 09:17).
• Misconceptions about Desires: “Most of us are very happy with just average. We just want to be in a relationship where we actually feel loved and appreciated.” – New Cold Squid (43:05)
• Polarization: Both media and feminist critics contribute to a widening gender divide by using “incel” as a blanket term for men they disagree with (08:02).

2. Personal Stories from Inside the Community

A. Mr. East (23, East Asian, neurodivergent)

• Background: Grew up as a “lurker” in online forums; attributes his isolation to race, neurodivergence, and social awkwardness (04:02, 04:32).
• Black Pill Philosophy: He sees it as accepting the fact that some aspects of oneself (looks, wealth, social skills) are outside individual control and greatly impact dating outcomes (06:01).
• Media and Societal Attitudes: Argues the popular narrative is “highly disingenuous” as it fails to see incels’ genuine pain (09:17).
• Radicalization in Echo Chambers: Warns that online forums often intensify pain and radicalization; “Online isn’t a replacement for real-life loneliness. You’ll still feel lonely even if you are part of these communities.” (10:45)
• Group Dynamics: Explains the “incel vs. normie” divide as a product of artificial group formation, increasing polarization and monolithic thinking (11:40).
• Advice for the Isolated: Suggests structural social change is needed more than individual advice; demonization only deepens self-loathing (13:15).

B. Sven (Early 40s, White, previously married briefly)

• Romantic History: Several very short-lived relationships; was married for only three days. Experiences have led to mounting skepticism and jadedness (24:39).
• Self-Perception: Feels that, despite advantages (height, athleticism, earning potential), fate or “luck” is against him (25:59, 29:34).
• Frustration, Not Anger: Describes pervasive frustration but not simmering hatred toward women or society (28:51).
• Evolving Mindset: Hopelessness has developed over years of failed attempts, not from teenage resentment; acceptance of perpetual loneliness is more recent (29:06).
• Cultural Shift: Points to changing ways of meeting others—e.g., online dating replacing social venues—contributing to isolation (27:33).
• Hopelessness and Black Pill: “I use the term black pill because I see literally zero hope, zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it.” (30:24)
• Quotable Moment: “First of all, that’s not how life works. If you want something, you have to work for it. ... I almost feel like I’m cursed.” (29:34)

C. New Cold Squid (Mid-20s, Australian, South Asian Muslim)

• Race and Upbringing: Faced high academic pressure from family, felt “not special,” and suffered bullying, often from girls, impacting ability to trust or open up (38:38).
• Loneliness Enhanced by COVID: The pandemic and isolation pushed him further into online spaces, leading to his embracing of the incel label (37:40).
• Community Perception: Entered with negative stereotypes about violence and misogyny, but now views inceldom as “just a state of being” and “fundamental feeling of being undesirable to anybody” (40:55).
• Desire for Inclusion: “I just think I deserve maybe an A shot, just one shot at the market.” (41:32)
• Daily Experience of Exclusion: Describes being ignored and sidelined in small ways in daily life (“When I say good morning to some… coworkers, they just ignore me… or don’t even acknowledge me.”) (42:35)
• Advice to the Isolated: Recommends minimizing social media use; credits social media with worsening self-loathing (43:50).

3. Expert Analysis with Dr. Le

• Incels by the Numbers:
  • Typically men in their mid-20s, heterosexual, often white—but up to 40% are people of color (19:07).
  • Around 1.6% of men aged 18-30 in the UK/US self-identify as incels (19:53).
  • Estimated 25,000 active in forums (19:07).
• Mental Health:
  • Extremely high rates of depression (35-40%) and autism or autistic symptoms (20-40%); vastly above population averages (21:36).
  • 80% report suicidal thoughts—a staggering prevalence (03:08, 22:53).
• Violence:
  • Actual acts of incel-perpetrated violence, while high-profile, are rare (<60 deaths worldwide to date), especially compared to other ideologically-motivated acts (20:34).
• Feedback Loops:
  • Identity becomes “fused” to community, further deepening isolation and vulnerability to ideological radicalization (22:53).

4. Emergent Themes

• Hopelessness: The “black pill” is a core aspect—loss of hope after repeated rejection.
• Pain Without Empathy: Interviewees stress that judgment, name-calling, and demonization contribute to isolation and radicalization.
• Societal Responsibility: Need for systemic, compassionate approaches rather than individual shaming or pathologizing.
• Community Isn’t a Cure: Echo chambers provide validation but not lasting belonging or real-world connection.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Social and Racial Disadvantages:
  “I am East Asian. I am of Chinese descent ... living in a city that’s like majority white. ... I am high functioning autistic ... that does play into your success.”
  — Mr. East (04:32)

• On the Black Pill:
  “Black pill is more of an understanding and acceptance that some aspects of yourself are not able to be controlled by you and these aspects ... may influence your success. And that by no means is any fault of your own.”
  — Mr. East (06:01)

• On Online Community Impact:
  “When you don’t have any real-life relationships and you instead spend all your time within these echo chambers that are just born from people’s pain and anger and frustration, it does cause people to become more and more radicalized.”
  — Mr. East (10:45)

• On Defining Incel:
  “It just means that you’re inherently unable to attract a partner ... you are literally inherently unable to attract any partner no matter what you do for both sex and both relationships.”
  — New Cold Squid (41:32)

• On Misconceptions About Incels:
  “The biggest thing is ... we are all just only miserable because we want the top most attractive women as partners. Most of us are very happy with just average.”
  — New Cold Squid (43:05)

• On Hope and Acceptance:
  “I use the term black pill because I see literally zero hope, zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it.”
  — Sven (30:24)

• On Personal Pain:
  “How does it feel if you could just drop dead any minute and nobody will even notice? That’s the gist of how I really fold at my worst point of life.”
  — New Cold Squid (38:38)

• On Social Media Use:
  “One big advice I would give them is to spend as less time as you can on social media. In my opinion, social media is the worst non-violent invention made by humanity.”
  — New Cold Squid (43:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Opening & Theme Framing | 02:36 – 03:08 | | Statistics on Suicidal Ideation (Dr. Le) | 03:08 | | Mr. East’s Personal Story | 04:02 – 14:05 | | Echo Chambers & Radicalization | 10:45 | | Misconceptions in Media/Society | 08:02, 09:17 | | Statistics & Clinical Analysis (Dr. Le) | 18:47 – 24:07 | | Sven’s Story & Views on Black Pill | 24:39 – 31:47 | | Hopelessness & Self-Perception | 30:24 | | New Cold Squid’s Story | 36:29 – 44:22 | | Advice to the Lonely/Isolated | 43:50 | | Closing Reflection on Empathy/Next Episodes| 44:22 – End |

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Memorable Moments

• The Emotional Weight of Isolation: Mr. East and New Cold Squid articulate, often painfully, how persistent exclusion—from both peers and potential partners—shapes their views, even as they push back against stereotypes of hate and violence.
• Statistical Reality Check: Dr. Le contextualizes incel violence and mental health struggles, emphasizing that most incels are not dangerous but are deeply vulnerable (20:34, 21:36, 22:53).
• Personal Resignation and Hope: Several guests express not cruelty, but a kind of resignation and longing for genuine connection—paired with skepticism that it’s possible in their own lives.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode offers not just a window into the complex identity of self-identified incels but a challenge to listeners: to see past media caricature and seek understanding. The intertwined roles of mental health, societal expectations, racial and neurodivergent identity, and the feedback loop of online echo chambers make clear that empathy and social reforms—not demonization—are needed to break cycles of loneliness and resentment.

Final Reflection:
“We’ve learned that empathy matters, compassion matters, and that real understanding cannot come from a place of judgment, but from listening.” — Courtney Armstrong (44:22)

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For more, follow @tstudios on Instagram. Stay tuned for future episodes exploring the broader “manosphere,” trolling, and more self-identified incel voices.

Transcript

[Courtney Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Mr. East]

The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?

[Ed Helms]

Based on a true story. Police looking for John Gacy.

[Sven]

We discovered bodies. By the looks of it, they're younger men. The things he did to those kids.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He's sick. The system bailed these families.

[Ed Helms]

Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy. Streaming now only on Peacock.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know how many there are?

[Mr. East]

Up to you to find out.

[Ed Helms]

Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist. From Smartless Media, Campside media and big money players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pull pulled off America's third largest cash heist. Kind of like Robin Hood, except for.

[Sven]

The part where he steals from the.

[Ed Helms]

Rich and gives to the poor.

[New Cold Squid]

I'm not that generous.

[Ed Helms]

It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing. They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.

[Courtney Armstrong]

So we're sitting like, oh, God, what do we do? What do we do?

[Sven]

That was dumb.

[Ed Helms]

People, do not follow my example. Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Sven]

Almost 10 years.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

10 years.

[Mr. East]

10.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sven]

Goodbye.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu every single episode.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons. Wait, stop.

[New Cold Squid]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

[Sven]

I am a loser.

[Ed Helms]

If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Courtney Armstrong]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Incels will be added to the terrorism guide.

[Sven]

I see literally zero hope.

[Courtney Armstrong]

This is Incels, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 1, episode 4, One Shot at the Market.

[Dr. Le]

As much as 80% of incels report thoughts of suicide.

[Mr. East]

I just hate myself. We all hate ourselves. Women are so materialistic. They always choose chads over nice guys like me.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller. We've been talking about Incels and now it's time to hear directly from them. Three men generously offered to speak with us and it's important to hear their personal stories. Here's Mr. East, who is protecting his identity. The 23 year old describes himself as a longtime lurker of Black Pill Incel spaces. A lurker is a user of social media or online community who consumes content without actively posting or commenting. The majority of us are lurkers. Here's Mr. East.

[Mr. East]

I used to lurk on the Forever Alone Reddit and there was actually a lot of insults from that community in particular just who like to just post on that subreddit. I think it's because like a lot of them are, they're pretty like socially isolated, lonely and yeah, that's how I got more involved within like this particular sphere.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Ask Mr. East to tell us a little bit about his background. He's followed by producer Gabriel Castillo.

[Mr. East]

I am East Asian. I am of Chinese descent, so that might be an issue, especially when I'm living in a city that's like majority white. The beauty standards here are also white. There's the fact that I, I am neurodivergent. I am like high functioning autistic. It might not show like when I'm talking with people online, but when I'm in person I am a bit more socially awkward.

[Sven]

What was your experience like growing up?

[Mr. East]

I was pretty much socially isolated throughout my childhood, so that doesn't really help either. If you're neurodivergent, obviously you're gonna have a lot more trouble getting along with people socially. So that's a big factor. And a lot of incels I noticed are neurodivergent to a certain degree. Maybe not like enormously, but enough so that they act more socially awkward and they can sense that and they might feel a bit more uncomfortable or they might think that you're weird and that does play into your success. Neurodivergency is like, this is like a huge spectrum. But generally thinking patterns within neurodivergent people are more one way or the other. They're less likely to be more compromising as a result, be more easily radicalized.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Mr. East identifies as being black pilled, which in general is defined, defined as holding a nihilistic worldview. But here's his personal perspective.

[Mr. East]

There's a lot of different definitions on how people see the black pill. With a lot of people within the community, they see it as, in terms of like dating context, if you don't have the looks, then you're finished. Basically you don't stand a chance. I see the black pill more as like a spectrum. Basically. Certain traits you have, such as looks, you know, wealth, they make it more likely for you to succeed within a certain context. I think in the most part, black pill is more of like understanding and acceptance that some aspects of yourself are not able to be controlled by you and these aspects of yourself may influence your success. And that by no means is any fault of your own.

[Sven]

Would you mind giving me the definition of, of red pill, blue pill as well?

[Mr. East]

Well, I mean for red pill, honestly I'm, I've never been part of the like the so called red pill manosphere, so I can't really tell you what exactly they believe or what they think about. So what the blue pill refers to is the idea that of meritocracy. You know, if you improve yourself, you will succeed. There are some areas within the black pill community who are like misogynistic mostly out of anger and like frustration of their failures and like things they can't control. It is largely motivated by like the blue pill gaslighting that occurs within society at large. You just got to work hard, you just got to grind, you just got to like make money and like, you know, get bitches, so to speak. Despite what popular consensus believes, it does really heavily depend on your looks and your ability to basically socialize. I mean, I am involuntarily celibate by the definition of the word, but I'm not as bothered by it as some people within the community are.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We asked Mr. East what he thought the information available online and in the media has done to the term incel.

[Mr. East]

Society at large and in popular media in general. They, they've kind of twisted the term into like something that refers to someone who is misogynistic. And I feel like a lot of online like feminist types has furthered that to like any Man I disagree with and I think that in the long term is only going to play into polarizing men from women, furthering the gender divide. Also I find it quite funny because incel means involuntarily celibate, which means you can't get sex no bitches. So basically you're insulting someone for their sexual value and sexual experience. And for a society that supposedly says oh you're not having sex, you're not sexually successful, that's fine, you know, you're worrying about it too much. They very quickly use that as an insult.

[Courtney Armstrong]

When Mysteries talks about misconceptions, he's pointing to something deeper. The term incel has been distorted, often used as a catch all insult. He sees this as widening the divide between men and women. In a world shaped by unrealistic expectations.

[Mr. East]

There are actually a lot of misconceptions in general. I think the popular media tends to lump together red pill, black pill and just incels all into one group of incels which is basically just what they believe are misogynistic, angry lonely men who can't get a girlfriend. Well while I think that's highly ingenuous and there is certain like aspects such as social media does cause like an unreal expectation in a way for potential romantic partners. So I think as this happens more and more men might find themselves embroiled within this space. And I think society does need to do more to address these types of issues.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We asked Mr. East if he thought some men fell into incel communities.

[Mr. East]

Society does tell everyone just be nice, just be confident you will succeed if you do all that. Obviously for many people that might not work, so they might be confused or they might be like why isn't this working? That's when they start searching online. When a community is as marginalized the black pill, I think it is more difficult for a lot of them to really take in any outside messaging.

[Sven]

Have you found more good relationships or bad relationships within the community?

[Mr. East]

When you don't have any real life relationships and you instead spend all your time within these echo chambers that are just born from people's pain and anger and frustration, it does caused many people to become more and more radicalized. And basically online isn't like a replacement for real life loneliness. You will still feel lonely even if you are part of these communities. But there's also like some that are like, you know, it's over. I just hate myself. We all hate ourselves. Women are so materialistic. They always choose chads over nice guys like me.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Mysteries talks about what he sees as made up social groups and what he calls the incel versus normie conflict. A normie is slang for a normal, ordinary person who appears to form romantic and sexual relationships easily.

[Mr. East]

There are studies that show that people will, like human beings in general, will automatically form groups if they aren't part of an already existing group. They will form artificial groups to make themselves feel included. I think in a way, what this current, like, incel versus normie conflict is is that artificial groups are forming whether you are an incel or whether you are a normie. And when these types of groups form, people are more likely to see outside groups as a monolith. Basically. I think that's what contributes to, like, incels seeing all normies as just blue pill brainwashed. And like, normie is seeing incels as all just misogynistic terrorist mass shooters. Right. And I've seen a lot of like in cell interviews online because they are also anonymous online. They're more bold.

[Sven]

If I were female conducting this interview, or if I was a female who.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Was reaching out to all these people.

[Sven]

Would the reciprocation be very different?

[Mr. East]

Gender would probably play a certain factor, even if a lot of people wouldn't admit it, because subconsciously you're not only part of the normie out group, you're also part of the female, which is an outer group. So I think people might be more wary. If you are female normie, what advice.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Would you give to someone younger who is beginning to feel isolated or turning towards these spaces? Any advice that you'd like to give?

[Mr. East]

Honestly? Not really. I feel like it's kind of inevitable for a lot of people to run into these types of spaces, especially if they're socially isolated. In order for young people to not fall into this rabbit hole or, like, not to be as misogynistic as it may turn out to be, I think it's more on society to change. And I, I do appreciate, like, what you just, like, you know, trying to see the other side. I feel like a lot of people, they kind of demonize the community and, like, make it look bad than what it actually is. Especially for, like, a lot of men who are already, like, see themselves, like, socially isolated might feel more bad about themselves. And I feel it's important to get this side of the story as well.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, and welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you A new snafu every single episode.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.

[Sven]

What?

[Mr. East]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[New Cold Squid]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good.

[Sven]

I'm like, oh, wow.

[Ed Helms]

Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Sven]

Almost 10 years.

[Mr. East]

10 years.

[New Cold Squid]

10.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.

[Mr. East]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Mr. East]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Ed Helms]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Sven]

I did not know her and I.

[Dr. Le]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Ed Helms]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Mr. East]

That y' all said.

[Courtney Armstrong]

They literally made me say that I.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Sven]

They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

From lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Sven]

America, y' all better wake the hell.

[Ed Helms]

Up bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Courtney Armstrong]

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived there. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret the Many Secrets of Marcia Almasiel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We'll continue sharing interviews with two other self identifying incels, but we wanted to step back for a moment for a broader perspective. We spoke with Dr. Le, a clinical psychologist, six therapist and author of multiple books. Dr. Le fills us in on some current statistics.

[Dr. Le]

I would say we have a fair bit of data at this point about who the typical INCEL is. The majority of them look to be in their mid-20s, males, heterosexual, typically childless. Of course a majority of incels in the U.S. and the United Kingdom are white, but a substantial percentage of incels, perhaps as many as 40%, identify as many people of color. Research on incels suggests that there may be between 40 and a few hundred thousand kind of self identified incels at any given time. It looks like there's around 25,000 active and participating in online INCEL forums.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Based on loose math we did, which is consistent with with a report out from the UK government, approximately 1.6% of men between the ages of 18 and 30 identify as incels. That's between one and two out of every 100 men. In earlier episodes we talked about violent cases, the absolute worst outcomes these events happened and the families of the victims are still living with the repercussions. However, it's important to remember that violence in INCEL communities is extremely rare. Dr. Le walks us through some of the details.

[Dr. Le]

When it comes to violence though, it's really important to understand that while the incel community is perceived as being extremely violent and their rhetoric is often violent and misogynistic, it is relatively rare, actually quite rare, for incels to actually engage in violence. There have certainly been some horrific tragedies with violent acts by incel individuals, but to date, fewer than 60 people worldwide have died by incel violence. When you compare that to the violence related to terrorism, to ideological divides over religion, over white supremacy, et cetera, incel violence just doesn't measure up.

[Courtney Armstrong]

A lot of incels are struggling. Rates of social anxiety and depression are especially high, and many report dealing with mental health challenges of all kinds. Dr. Le breaks it down with some statistics.

[Dr. Le]

Like all complicated human behaviors, these issues intermingle and interact in terms of cause and effect. It's important to know that there are extremely high levels of mental health struggles in the incel community. Very significant rates of depression and autism. Around 35 to 40% of incels appear to have very serious depression. Around 20 to 40% may have autism or autistic symptoms. It's important to note only around 1% of the general population has autism. So this indicates a really significant kind of predisposing factor that obviously autism would precede identifying as an incel. But then as individuals with these mental health conditions interact in the these online communities, it starts to reinforce some of these aspects and symptoms of mental health problems, oftentimes exacerbating them.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We want to be absolutely clear, we are in no way suggesting that having autism means someone is an incel. What we're doing is sharing information, pointing out signs that may help identify when someone is at risk of struggling with. More that, here's Dr. Ley.

[Dr. Le]

Suicidal ideation appears to be extremely common in the incel community. As much as 80% of incels report thoughts of suicide. It appears these mental vulnerabilities and struggles not only precede their identification as an incel but also impact their success in dating, their confidence, anxiety, social ability to interact and seek out partners, et cetera. What's more interesting, though, is that these vulnerabilities increase the risk of men becoming more ideological in the incel community. And as they become more engaged in the incel community. And they may experience what's called identity fusion, where they take on the identity of this community as a significant part of their own identity. As that occurs with these mental predisposing vulnerabilities, they become more and more prone to engaging in or espousing violence. So we see all of these things interacting, feeding on each other in a dangerous kind of feedback loop.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Dr. Ley says the pull of the INCEL community can become deeply personal, where loneliness and ideology blur outside the data. Those struggles sound different when you hear them firsthand. Sven, a self identified incel in his early 40s, offers a more introspective view. It's a completely different perspective than anything we've previously encountered. He spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell about his relationship history with women.

[Sven]

As far as romantic relationships go, I have had several, but they're very short lived. I was actually married in 2020 for a whopping three days. We were together, I guess for about a month. Got married, she disappeared after day three, never saw her again, got it annulled, never had a divorce. And that was one of my longer relationships. They've been very few and very fast. Like they appear and then disappear.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Is there a common theme for how the relationships end?

[Sven]

I would say probably all different because someone else who I briefly dated, I found out the entire time that she was married. She was kind of leading me on and I didn't see through that because she had children and I hung out with her and her children. And it never crossed my mind that she literally coached her children to lie to both her and husband and to myself. And it just baffled my mind. But when I confronted her and after I found out she was married, he admitted to it. There's a part of me that wants to be understanding and say, well, you know, there's something in her life, in her upbringing that led her to think that that kind of behavior is okay. But on the other hand, like, where does that leave me?

[Courtney Armstrong]

Sven explains what brought him into the black pill sphere.

[Sven]

This is where it gets frustrating. So I'm going to kind of build myself up and then insult myself. But you know, I'm a 6 foot 4, very athletic male. I've had points in my life when I've made lots of money. Objectively, I don't think I'm any kind of good looking, but I've consistently heard from people like, oh, you're so great looking. Genetically, I have literally never had a health problem, so on paper I should be the perfect specimen. And yet that has brought me to a very solid acceptance of the fact that I know I'm going to die alone. Because now I've gotten to the point in my life and this is where I step into, I guess that sort of a black pill sphere is to say that I'm jaded enough that seeing how things have gone in the past, that I may even turn down opportunities if they presented themselves. But I still call myself an incel because the opportunities are not presenting themselves to turn down.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

How would you describe your lifestyle in terms of. Is it severely online? Is it a little bit online? Not that much.

[Sven]

It's very rarely online. I kind of become kind of old man in that I'm very much in a rhythm. You know, I. I go to work, do my time, come back, try to work out, eat, go to sleep. As far as connecting with people, I always kind of had. I don't know if it's the late 20th century mindset of, like, you go to a bar, you could meet someone there, so on and so forth.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Sven reflects on what it actually means to identify as an incel, and whether or not he sees the label itself as an insult.

[Sven]

I don't view it as derogatory, although this is probably very hypocritical of me. But one sort of term I've used even derogatorily myself is viewing someone as, say, a shut in. That is, you try to avoid the world or don't get out, don't socialize. I would normally want to encourage you, go out, talk to people, so on and so forth. Then it ends up being kind of hypocritical because I do try to do that a lot. I try to be extremely social. I love social settings. But, you know, I had that mindset for a while with bars. Like, I wanted to go talk to women, see where things would go, but never actually had anything turn into more than just a little conversation. You mentioned about people living online is kind of killing it in a different way, because people who maybe once used to go to bars to meet people are now strictly on Tinder. That's why you end up going to bars and there's the three old guys in the corner.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

One of the other recurring themes that you see, and I actually think it seems to be younger men, but there's a real anger and frustration with women. Frustration that maybe turns the anger. I talked to a couple men who are sort of more in your age, you know, late 30s, early 40s. They talk about loneliness, not anger, maybe frustration.

[Sven]

I would absolutely say a frustration. And I have had feelings that you could call anger, but I don't. I don't sit with some kind of simmering disdain.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Did you have this mentality in your teens and early twenties, or is this.

[Sven]

Developed, the acceptance of basically like, I'm gonna die alone or I'm gonna be alone forever, so on, so forth is more recent. You're constantly told that, oh, no, you'll find the right, you know, things will work out. You'll have your own family. But then when I've had basically 20 years of actively trying to do that, and I've had periods when I haven't, and I've waited because supposedly everyone also tells you it's when you stop looking, that's when it'll happen.

[New Cold Squid]

Yeah.

[Sven]

First of all, that's not how life works. If you want something, you have to work for it. You can't just say, I want to be rich. Let me sit back and wait for it. I've done both. Like, I've tried very hard. I've done the dating sites. I've been social. I've worked out to the point, you know, probably beyond the purview of what you're wanting to touch on. But I, you know, I have a six pack, but I don't really feel that it comes down to that. There's an aspect of luck. Like, I almost feel like I'm cursed.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

As I've been talking to people about what the frustrations are. And, you know, some of its height, some of its baldness, some of it's social awkwardness. There are themes, but there's also just this sort of feeling of hopelessness, I guess, in one's own situation. And. And everyone has a different situation. I mean, is that sort of accurate?

[Sven]

Height, baldness, and so forth. These don't resonate with me because they're not physical accuracies in my case, but the sense of hopelessness, at least as far as. Do I have any hope of anything in a romantic or. I guess, you know, the term celibate relates specifically to the sexual connotations. I have zero hope for myself in either of those regards. So the sense of hopelessness, I would say, is very accurate. And so certainly when it comes to relationships and stuff, I use the term black pill because I see literally zero hope, zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it. What are my options in 2025? Option A, try to go to a bar. Option B, try to open up some dating sites, start doing the little swiping or whatever. Or option C, just say screw it. You know, instead of having any kind of hope for that, which, you know, in a perfect world, I would love it. Perfect world, I would have been married 20 years ago and stuck, stuck with her. But, you know, instead I'm gonna come back from work, work out, play guitar and go to sleep and get ready to go get exhausted at work again tomorrow.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back In a moment.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu. Every single episode.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Sven]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good.

[Sven]

I'm like, oh, wow.

[Ed Helms]

Angela and Jenna. I am. I am so psyched you're here.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Mr. East]

Almost 10 years.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

10 years.

[Mr. East]

10.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sven]

Goodbye.

[Mr. East]

All I know is what I've been told. And that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Mr. East]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Ed Helms]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer. And I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Sven]

I did not know her and I.

[Dr. Le]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Ed Helms]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Mr. East]

That y' all said.

[Courtney Armstrong]

They literally made me say that I.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Sven]

They made me say that I poured.

[Courtney Armstrong]

Gas on her.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

From lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Sven]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Courtney Armstrong]

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini secrets of Martial Masiel as part of the My Kultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We spoke with another self identified Incel who wants to protect his identity. Per his request, he's going by New Cold Squid and we're altering his voice.

[New Cold Squid]

I'm New Cold Squid. I'm based in Australia, came from a South Asian Muslim background. I've been identifying as Black pill for maybe five years now since I turned 20 years old. I don't think I have any redeeming qualities to offset the negative effects. Like I'm not, I'm not tall enough to be to offset that. But for race or personality or charm, and I'm not facially attractive and I'm not rich, it's very hard for me to still hope for anything and the social feedback that you get is still very, very negative from the start.

[Courtney Armstrong]

New Cold Squid first encountered the term incel as a teenager, a common experience with many people we've spoken with. He highlights how the isolation of the pandemic contributed to where he is now.

[New Cold Squid]

I always kind of knew what incel meant basically, and so I've known that since I was 14, 15 years old. I didn't really actively take part in any online communities until maybe 2020 around Covid, when I was more stuck at home than usual and more online and trying to find spaces Where I felt like more people could actually connect with my actual experiences. I've usually been a shut hand just playing video games, watching movies and, and stuff. But at one point it does get old and you start wanting some of that social connection. But, you know, that inability to get it is how I became insult identified.

[Courtney Armstrong]

He describes growing up in a household that highly valued academic excellence. That pressure, combined with feelings of isolation, shaped much of how he sees himself today.

[New Cold Squid]

Parental expectations are like super, super high, and I'm okay, like academically, but I'm not special. So that mounted a lot of pressure and there was a huge feeling of making your parents feel disappointed. So that, that just added a lot to the worthlessness of it all. And yeah, it killed myself with, even in terms of connecting to my parents, to family back home, all that. But yeah, loneliness has been. Definitely been a part of it. Loneliness part is a huge, huge thing. We're social animals, right? We still need some kind of connection. How does it feel if you could just drop dead any minute and nobody will even notice? That's the gist of how I really fold at my worst point of life.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Do you think five years ago you.

[Sven]

Would have done an interview like this?

[New Cold Squid]

Back then I wouldn't have been able to because I wasn't really aware what, what is making me feel so dead, so miserable. Like, why am I always feeling down? I was also in denial of why I feel that way because, you know, initially I did not want to identify as, you know, insult because obviously because of the negative connotations the label carries. So when I was in school and a lot of bullying happened, a lot of the bullying came from, from the girls as well. So to me, it didn't really. I didn't really have to ask them how to gauge if they liked me. They already made it clear how they see me. So for me, it kind of closed me off into opening up for a very, very long time to anybody in general.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Do you feel like a lot of.

[Sven]

These communities, is it a lot more positive than negative or is it a.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Lot more negative than positive?

[New Cold Squid]

To be frank, it is probably negative because, yeah, we're all miserable anyway, so it's negative, but it's our truth, Basically. I get a realistic but negative perspective than a toxic positive one. Just to that just makes me feel more miserable and not focus on other things, essentially.

[Sven]

Do you think you would have viewed.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

These groups differently when you were 20 years old than how you view it now?

[New Cold Squid]

At 20 years old, I still held on to those biases that, you know, insult probably violent, being misogynistic, or wanting to hurt people, kill women, shoot people up, stuff like that. So that is how I viewed the community at the time, as an actual ideology, so to speak. But now I don't think it's an ideology. It's just a state of being when you feel fundamentally inherently undesirable and you're kind of screwed. No matter what you do, you're gonna be alone.

[Sven]

How do you define incel?

[New Cold Squid]

It just means that you're inherently unable to attract a partner like you want one, but you are literally inherently unable to attract any partner no matter what you do for both sex and both relationships. And I think that is the most fundamental definition of insult. Literally involuntarily celibate. I don't think having an ideology or having a certain hate has something to do with it. It's just a fundamental feeling of being undesirable to anybody. Someone like me who's just trying to lead an honest life. I just think I deserve maybe an A shot, just one shot at the market. I don't think I've actively been looking for a very very long time or probably ever. But it also starts up in smaller, subtle passive aggressive behavior.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We ask for an example of the subtle passive behaviors he encounters.

[New Cold Squid]

When I say good morning to some some of my co workers, they just ignore me. They would just act like I'm not even there. Or when I do something, do some kind of favor for them, they don't say thank you again, not just they won't even acknowledge me. Or when I ask a work related question, they'll give an answer to somebody else in my proximity and expect me to gauge from what they're saying to them.

[Sven]

What are some big misconceptions people have.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Had about the incel community.

[New Cold Squid]

Main big thing is that we are all just only miserable because we want the top most attractive women as partners. Most of us are very happy with just average. We just want to be in a relationship where we actually feel loved and appreciated. But the thing is, just because we are ready to date a so called 5 out of 10 doesn't mean they want to date a 5 out of 10 guy. That's something a lot of people need to think about.

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

Do you have a piece of advice for younger people who are starting to feel very isolated and lonely and starting.

[Sven]

To look towards these forums?

[New Cold Squid]

One big advice I would give them is to spend as less time as you can on social media. In my opinion, social media is the worst non violent invention made by humanity. Everything I said here. It's based on my experiences. I hope it can be of some use and I hope maybe the conversations will change and people will start to interact with us in a different way.

[Courtney Armstrong]

We've heard from men who often feel unheard stories marked by loneliness, rejection and the need to belong. We've learned that empathy matters, compassion matters, and that real understanding cannot come from a place of judgment, but from listening. In the episodes ahead, we'll go deeper into the broader worlds of the manosphere trolling culture and a few corners we hadn't even heard of. We'll also continue hearing from from more self identified Incels, sharing their experiences in their own words. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram tstudios. Incels is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Gabriel Castillo and me, Courtney Armstrong. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller Editing by Jeff Toy music by Vanicore Studios. Incels is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ed Helms]

Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist. Kind of like Robin Hood, except for.

[Sven]

The part where he steals from the.

[Ed Helms]

Rich and gives to the poor.

[New Cold Squid]

I'm not that generous.

[Ed Helms]

It's a damn near inspiring true story from for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing. They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.

[Courtney Armstrong]

So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do?

[New Cold Squid]

That was dumb.

[Ed Helms]

People, do not follow my example. Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new SNAFU every single episode.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna, Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Mr. East]

What's the 10 years?

[Interviewer (possibly Connor Powell or Stephanie Lydecker)]

10 years?

[Mr. East]

10.

[Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark]

That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sven]

Goodbye.

[Ed Helms]

Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over.

[Courtney Armstrong]

But one of them will end up.

[Ed Helms]

Dead and the other tried for murder three times. It starts with a dream. A nature reserve and a spectacular new home.

[Sven]

But little by little, they lose it. They actually lose it.

[Dr. Le]

They sort of went nuts.

[Ed Helms]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Courtney Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast.