Episode Overview

Podcast: Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff (Righteous Media)
Episode: #313 – Ken Burns Replay: The Master Documentarian on Extremism in America, Ukraine, The Importance of the Midterms, Doing a Film on Iraq & Afghanistan, His Dog Chester
Date: December 26, 2024
Guest: Ken Burns, renowned documentarian

This special replay episode features a wide-ranging conversation between host Paul Rieckhoff and Ken Burns, tackling the state of America in a pivotal election season, the parallels between historical and contemporary extremism, national security threats, the moral imperative in global conflicts like Ukraine, the importance of historical perspective, and the role of political independents. Burns also reflects on his documentary craft, his rural New Hampshire life, and, to the delight of many, his golden doodle Chester.

Main Discussion Themes

1. Personal Context and Setting

• Ken’s Home Base: Burns describes his life and work in Walpole, New Hampshire, noting how living outside the media spotlight gives him necessary focus and perspective for his historical deep dives.
  • “The smartest thing I've done was to stay here and to work and give the kind of insulation these deep dives into history require.” (03:38)
• Working During COVID: Ken reflects on increased productivity in the pandemic, aided by his dog Chester and walks in nature.
  • “Chester, who is trying to be a polar bear on an iceberg, but a golden doodle that I've had for nearly eight years...” (04:22)

2. Framing the Current Historical Moment

• The Stakes of the Election
  • Burns forcefully argues that the coming election is indeed the most important of our lifetimes, citing mounting authoritarian threats and erosion of democratic norms.
  • “Let me be boringly redundant and say that this is the most important election... nearly all of my films have addressed the complexity of the United States, the contradictions even, but still celebrated its exceptionalism. If you still want that exceptionalism... you avoid the nativist, the anti-Semitic, the racist, the xenophobic tropes that are now all around us...” (05:45–12:51)
• Lessons from The U.S. and the Holocaust Documentary
  • The rise in authoritarianism, nativism, and antisemitism today “rhymed” so much with the 1930s that he accelerated the documentary’s release to join the public conversation.
  • “Every sentence was rhyming and not in the right way.” (08:25)
  • America’s historical complicity with eugenics and restrictive immigration laws set a precedent studied and admired by the Nazis.

3. Extremism & National Security Threats

• From a Bipartisan Foreign Policy Consensus to Today’s Fractures
  • “It used to be the trope was that everybody's partisanship ended at the border and then we sort of shared a vast middle... But now... you have people who are admiring the dictatorship of Xi in China.” (14:18)
• Ukraine as a Test of Democracy
  • Burns frames Ukrainian resistance as a genuine struggle for democracy in the face of authoritarian aggression and propaganda.
  • “It's a David and Goliath... they're fighting for democracy. They're not fighting for some conspiracy theory that doesn't exist. They're not fighting for a lie.” (18:54–20:48)
• The Global Consequences of U.S. Political Turmoil
  • The world watches for American leadership; democratic “vacuums” embolden authoritarian actors globally (16:00–17:30).

4. Historical Perspective & Documentary Approach

• Why Wait to Tell Iraq and Afghanistan’s Story?
  • Burns advocates for perspective provided by time, using his work on Vietnam as an example.
  • “Think of the film I'd make in 85 or 95 or 2005. But we didn’t. Right. It came out in 2017. And so it was able to average these things and not become susceptible to one view. So the passage of time gives you the perspective...” (23:11–24:47)

5. America’s Political Divisions and the Rise of Independents

• Grievance as Political Fuel
  • Burns discusses how grievance is weaponized, warning of the danger of parties abandoning fact for malevolent energies.
  • “...one party has been more effective in harnessing that disaffection to energies that are malevolent, that is to say, that are not based in fact or truth.” (25:41)
  • He links susceptibility to grievance and conspiracy to the breakdown in shared reality and civic unity.
• Social Media and Loss of Community
  • “Social media isn't... it's not social. ...We've lost a little bit of our ability to come together as community. I live in a tiny town where we see each other, we go to the post office, we wave. And maybe they are opposite of my political beliefs, but that doesn't matter. We're still Americans.” (29:26)

6. Message for Americans on the Eve of Elections

• Calling on Lincoln’s “Better Angels”
  • Burns references Lincoln’s First Inaugural for guidance in times of division:
  • “We must not be enemies, we must be friends. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. ...The mystic chords of memory.... will yet swell the chorus of the Union... by the better angels of our nature.” (31:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Present–Past Parallels:
  “By the time we were halfway through editing, every sentence was rhyming and not in the right way.” — Ken Burns (08:25)
• On American Exceptionalism:
  “If you want to continue to play your single note, have at it. But you won't have that republic around to tell Benjamin Franklin, yes, we kept it.” — Ken Burns (32:32)
• On National Security and Ukraine:
  “If you are now having people throughout the country, from dog catcher, president of the United States, talking about, well, maybe it's democracy's not the way, we're in big, big, big trouble.” — Ken Burns (16:43)
• On Grievance and Misinformation:
  “It is in the authoritarian playbook to do accuse your enemy of what you in fact are doing. ...what happens is that grievance excuses a kind of laziness. If you want to know what's wrong, the grievance is only in the mirror.” — Ken Burns (26:54)
• On Social Media’s Impact:
  “Social media isn't... it's not social. ...That is not social. Right. I'm into community.” — Ken Burns (29:26)
• On Historical Distance for Documentary Work:
  “We think the past is fixed. It's unbelievably malleable because think of the film I'd make in 85 or 95 or 2005. But we didn't.” — Ken Burns (23:11)

Key Timestamps

• 03:21 – Ken describes his life and working environment in New Hampshire.
• 05:42 – Framing the current historical moment: authoritarianism, historical echoes, and dangers to democracy.
• 14:16 – National security threats: partisanship, Ukraine, and U.S. leadership.
• 18:50 – The spirit and story of Ukraine.
• 22:59 – Will Ken Burns make a documentary on Iraq and Afghanistan? The role of historical perspective.
• 25:39 – On America’s political divisions, the rise of independents, and the danger of grievance politics.
• 31:37 – Burns offers a unifying message for America, quoting Lincoln.
• 32:48 – Episode close, mutual appreciation, and encouragement to engage with Burns’ latest work.

Tone & Takeaway

Burns is thoughtful and historically grounded, offering perspective, caution, and hope, all in his signature earnest manner. Rieckhoff’s questions integrate the lived experiences of veterans and independents, deepening the show’s commitment to bridging divides and focusing on civic engagement.

Final message:
Burns urges Americans to recognize “there is only us,” reject the politics of grievance and misinformation, and summon the “better angels of our nature” to preserve American democracy.

Recommended Follow-ups:

• Watch Ken Burns’ new PBS series The U.S. and the Holocaust
• Check out his book Our America
• Engage with the Independent Americans community for ongoing dialogue