← Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff
Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff
Can This Independent for Governor Win Michigan? w/ Mayor Mike Duggan.
00:49:21
Former three-term Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan left the Democratic Party and is now running for governor of Michigan as an independent — and the latest polls have him tied for the lead. Paul Rieckhoff sits down with Duggan for a candid conversation on why he broke ranks, how he's building a coalition without party infrastructure, and where he stands on tariffs, ICE, and the State of the Union. This is what the independent movement looks like when it's actually winning.
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Transcript49 lines
- [00:00]
A
Mike, with all due respect, those were simpler times. Right? And this is ICE has moved to a place that many would argue is unlawful. Right? You got three, at least three dead Americans now, American citizens who've been killed at the hands of ice. Many folks across both parties have called for Kristi Noem to resign. Let me ask you just straight up, do you think she should resign? And do you think ICE should be in Detroit, Minneapolis and other cities want ICE out? That's the call you're going to hear from people across Michigan. Should Kristi Noem go? And should ICE go? Welcome to Independent Americans. Welcome to episode 448. I'm your host, Paul Reikoff, and I am still coming to you from Tampa Bay, Florida, where I am trapped until further notice because flights are still grounded and the weather here at least is sunny and 50 degrees, which is the upside. It is Tuesday, February 24, the day after the snowpocalypse for much of the Northeast. So my heart goes out to all of you who are digging out. My kids are getting a couple extra days off from school and they're thrilled about that. And we are continuing to bring you shows this week at a very important time. And as I told you, and I will continue to tell you every day, I'm going to pick a different musical artist to introduce my boys to. And today's artist is the great Miles Davis, because he was the king of cool. And whether you're somewhere snowy or somewhere sunny, I think we all need a little bit more of the Miles Davis kind of cool. The most influential, arguably jazz musician of the 20th century. Check out Freddie Freeloader, which might be good for Cash Patel and the entire 1959 kind of blue album. Of course, with so what leading it off, I'm going to bring you the five eyes in every show, a little bit of the Miles Davis China. Cool. Independence, Integrity, information, inspiration and impact. We got a big guest today, a big independent guest. A newly independent guest. Former mayor of Detroit, Michigan. Mike Duggan is now at. After being a Democrat for decades, running as governor as an independent. And he joined me on this show for an extended conversation. It's a challenging one. We get into some stuff. We talk about ice. We preview the State of the Union. He talks about what it's been like to leave the Democratic Party after decades. And he is right now polling neck and neck with the Democrat and the Republican for mayor of. For governor of Michigan. This shows that the independent might not be the spoiler, the Democrat or the Republican might be the spoiler. Mike Duggan coming up in just a couple minutes. There is a lot happening today that I want to bring your attention to, to help you stay vigilant. All right? Whether you're here in the sunshine in the south or you're up in the north, digging out, there is a lot to pay attention to. And I think the number one story today to help you stay vigilant is, of course, the State of the Union.
- [03:07]
B
Foreign.
- [03:18]
A
Tonight, big State of the Union, Trump's first address since being reelected president. He has a very low approval rating. I think that's very, very important. And today there's a new CNN poll that says his approval rating with independence has hit a new low. He is down to 26%, the lowest point during his two terms in office. In February of 2025, he was down around 41%. His overall approval rating in the poll is 36%, which is pretty damn low. But with independence, 26%. This is very, very important for him. I think it's very, very important for the midterms, and it's very, very important for the country. More and more Americans are unhappy with just, just about everything he's doing. 26% is extremely low. I don't know if he's gonna address independence tonight. He probably won't because he's all gas and no brakes. He's gonna dig into immigration, of course. He's gonna talk about ice. He's probably off about the Supreme Court ruling on his tariffs. So we may hear information about that. That's something I talked to Mike Duggan about in particular. Michigan's one of those states getting hit hard by Trump's tariffs. He might have the Olympic hockey team there. We don't know how many of them will actually show up, but players Quinn and Jack Hughes have announced that they will be there at the State of the Union. They are apparently Trump supporters, or they just want to be there. But they will be highlighted, I am sure. And Trump is, of course, going to call on Democrats to end the partial government shutdown in his fight over ice. They're calling the speech America at 250, strong, prosperous, and respected. Strap in for a long night. If there's a preseason spring training baseball game or an NBA game or a movie you want to watch, it might be that time to do it. But it will be long. There will be lots of periods of applause, there will be some boos, and there will be a Democratic boycott. At least a dozen Democratic lawmakers are skipping the speech, including AOC and others. She said she doesn't want to Normalize Trump. I could understand that. And in response, the Democrats are putting up Virginia Governor Abigail Spanberger, the newly elected, somewhat moderate voice for the Democrats. This is an important moment for her. She is a rising star, like Mikey Sherrill, who won in New Jersey, if you don't know. Spanberger is a former CIA agent, has a focus on national security, and she's seen as a rising star, maybe even a presidential candidate herself. But the bottom line here is that Trump's facing some huge headwinds and he's gonna probably run right into them all. Gas, no brakes. Cause I don't think he really cares that much about the polls. But it is a State of the Union for you political nerds like me. It's always interesting to see who is there, who is not, who is the Designated Survivor. Maybe Hegseth will decide to go on his own boondoggle with Kash Patel and be the Designated Survivor tonight. There probably won't be much focus on veterans issues. I don't think we'll hear much focus on education. And we might hear a bit about Iran. Don't be surprised if he launches attacks on Iran before, during, or right after. But the State of the Union is front and center. I will have a full reaction tomorrow. And I'll have a couple questions coming up with Mike Duggan in just a second. But it is an annual time for us all, even if you got to strap in and get a drink or a cup of coffee to get you through it. The State of the Union is always a time to stay vigilant. Today marks four years since Russia invaded Ukraine. President Zelensky has marked the four years since Russia's invasion with a big speech saying that Putin had not broken Ukrainians, praising their immense courage since the war began in February 2022. And I just always want to take a minute to celebrate the tremendous courage, the honor, the innovation of what we see in Ukraine every single day. So many days we're worried about things like snow, and they are worried about snow and cold and missiles and Shahid drones and so much more. So on this anniversary, especially a grim anniversary that celebrates the resilience, I hope most of all of the Ukrainian people. So many lost, so many dead, but also a reminder of what people can stand up to and how the brave Ukrainian people continue to stand on the front lines of freedom. So today, as with every other day on this show especially we want to say Slava, Ukraine. All right, Staying vigilant on national security issues. You probably won't hear much about it from Trump Tonight, but there was another boat strike. They're back at doing boat strikes. And I think it's important because I don't think most of America even cares or is tracking anymore. But yesterday, again, Southern Command posts these posts on X. It's one of the few reasons remaining to still be on X. But Southern Command posts video every single time about a 9 or 10 second video of another alleged narco trafficking boat that was hit. They said three male narco terrorists were killed. No US Forces were harmed. No response from Congress, no approval from Congress. And most of this is still unpopular with most Americans. But Trump doesn't care. He's all gas and no brakes. All right, related to the State of the Union and the Olympics. The country is still riding high off what has been an amazing Olympic victory. So many rousing stories. We talked about it yesterday. Looks like the women's hockey team, unlike the men, have declined Trump's invitation. They said due to timing and previously scheduled academic and professional commitments following the Games, the athletes are unable to participate. They were honored to be included and grateful for the acknowledgment. Now, this was after he kind of shit on the women's team. So I wouldn't be surprised if we find out more in the days to come that maybe the women decided to come together and say that they would not go to the State of the Union, they would not celebrate Trump or accept his invitation or allow him maybe to politically manipulate them, which is always the case. All right, speaking of political manipulation, let's talk about ice. Yesterday, there was important testimony that was probably below your radar. Former ICE attorney Ryan Schwenk stepped forward as a whistleblower, maybe the most significant whistleblower we've heard so far from inside of ice. This could be a breaking of the seal. We could hear more from more brave ICE agents. And I will specifically appeal to the veterans who are in ice. We've talked about this before. One third of all ICE agents are veterans. And I hope many of them, if they have a truth to tell, that could benefit the American people, that could save lives, that, that could help ice, improve its reputation and improve our country's national security. Step forward now. Raise your voice. Find whatever way you can to push back. But Ryan Schwank had some very powerful testimony. And here's a short clip.
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C
My name is Ryan Schwank. I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when I joined ICE on August 1, 2021, as an assistant chief counsel. I followed that oath for four and a half years, working side by side with ICE officers. And I followed it when I resigned on February 13, 2026, a little over a week ago so that I could speak to you today. I am here because I am duty bound to report the legally required training program at the ice academy is deficient, defective and broken.
- [10:41]
A
All right. Most importantly, he said, I swore an oath to uphold the constitution when I joined ice. I followed it when I resigned. The legally required training program at the ice academy is deficient, defective and broken. This is so important because I have noted this as a former military officer, as a former military police soldier, so many folks who are law enforcement, like Chris Swanson, we had on this show Sheriff Chris Swanson, who's also running for governor of. Of Michigan a couple weeks ago. They've talked about how bad the training is, how broken the culture is, how unprofessional ICE is. And this must be a focal point because it is absolutely unacceptable, especially among law enforcement, to have this kind of haphazard training. This lack of professional discipline, this lack of respect and honor, this lack of proper treatment of our fellow Americans. We've got to keep our focus on ice. We've got to hold them accountable. I talked to Mike Duggan about that. I ask him if, as a candidate for governor of Michigan, if he will call for Kristi Noem to resign. You may be surprised by his answer. I also asked him to address ice. You may be surprised by his answer on that. All right. Also surprising somewhat, I think Savannah Guthrie's family continues to reach out and continues to look for more information about the recovery of Nancy Guthrie. And now they are offering a $1 million reward paid only with the recovery. This family is going through absolute hell. I think some folks are tired out by it, but I think our hearts must continue to go up to the Guthrie's and also the. The larger issue of what can happen if someone in the public eye and the media is targeted by something like this. If you have any information, 1-800-call FBI is the number. You can remain anonymous. You can, of course, reach out to the Guthrie family directly, but it's another example of how we can all keep our eyes open. If you see something, say something, and definitely stay vigilant.
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B
All right.
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A
I don't know how long I'm going to be down here in Tampa, but I'm going to continue to bring you episodes, and we're gonna continue to bring you independent candidates, some that you may have heard of before, some of you, some that you may not have. Mayor Mike Duggan is a guy who's been at the epicenter of politics for a couple decades right now, he ran a grassroots campaign to get elected and served three terms in Detroit, getting them through bankruptcy, helping them through some very tough times. And now he has left the Democratic Party, something that I think could be a wave that we'll see in the days to come, especially if a guy like Duggan wins. Latest polling has him even with the Republican and Democrat. And he joined me for an extended conversation today from Michigan. He's in Michigan. I'm in Tampa. We talk about ice. We talk about how he'll govern as an independent, how he'll raise money and the unique obstacles he faces as an independent. These are the kinds of conversations I want to continue to bring to you. If you've got an independent candidate that is in your area that you want me to know about, that you want to make sure we have a conversation with, let us know. And if you're an independent veteran that wants to run for office, we are recruiting. Check out independentveteransofamerica.org but as we go through this crazy Tuesday with everything from snowstorms to a potential war with Iran, now is most definitely and especially for independence, on a day when more and more of them are upset with the president, upset with the direction of this country, now is most definitely a time to stay vigilant. Okay, Independent Americans helping us stay vigilant. We are going to continue our Meet the Independent Candidate series with a man who is right in the center of one of the biggest races for governor in America, a man who is known across the state of Michigan, known across Detroit, and will be soon known to independent Americans around the country because he is now an independent. He has declared his independence and he is running for governor of Michigan. Joining us and independent Americans, the great and powerful Mayor Mike Duggan is here on Independent Americans. Welcome, sir.
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B
Hey, thanks for having me, Paul.
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A
It's great to have you here. I am excited to get into your race. I am excited to maybe get your thoughts in advance of the State of the Union. But I want to also just welcome you and ask you, where are you and how are you? I told you we were getting ready. I'm down, still stuck in Florida. I saw your Detroit Tigers the other day and I could start by saying that's about as good as it's going to get for the Yankees. I think we won 20 to three and Judge hit two homers. So that was a good start for us.
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B
Yeah, hopefully it'll get a little bit better, but Tigers, I think are in for a Big year this year. We got some pitching this time and Verlander back and we're pretty excited.
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A
I can't root against the Tigers. And you got Gleyber Torres, who was, who is good as a Yankee and as great as a Tiger. And you know, like with all Detroit sports teams, I can't hate on them. And it's always amazing to see how Detroit fans come out. They were there, they're dedicated, they got that spirit that I think personifies so much in Michigan. And it was good to see and it's a good preview for our conversation. I've been looking forward to talking to you, Mike. Let me start with a question I ask everybody. Where are you and how are you in these crazy times in America? Where do we find you today and how you doing?
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B
Yeah, well, I've been all over Michigan and I'm feeling good, so. So we're going from place to place and I'm just in one other stop right now. But it's been the Upper Peninsula for the dog sled races to Grand Rapids with the teachers and educators to Pontiac in the churches and just keep sitting with people and talking.
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A
How much snow did you guys get out there? I feel like we all need dog sleds this week after this snowpocalypse. How much did you get?
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B
You know, in the Detroit area, it hasn't been too bad this winter. I guess it's been worse than it's been. But when you land in the Upper Peninsula and you get off and you're driving on a road, you're looking at 15ft of snow on both sides of the road. They're really good about plowing the snow up there, but it's a different world.
- [16:31]
A
Well, it's going to have to be a time of toughness and it's going to be a real test of how leaders can get things done. Let me ask you now, for folks who don't know you did three terms tours, probably felt like tours as the mayor of Detroit, you were very popular, you know, helped turn things around in Detroit. But in 2024, you declared your independence, something that we've been calling on lots of folks to do, I think is happening more and more from folks of both parties. But let me ask you to start, what got you to that point? Why did you decide to finally leave the Democratic Party after decades and declare your independence?
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B
Well, I grew up in Detroit and in the course of my life, you know, everything that we knew was taken away from us. The auto plants moved out, the banks moved out, our neighbors Moved out. And I grew up in a family where my dad was a federal judge appointed by Ronald Reagan, and my mom worked for one of Michigan's most prominent Democrats, Ed McNamara. So I grew up in a house that. Well, we didn't hate each other because we were in different parties. The discussions were lively, and I was never afraid to go home for Thanksgiving. In 2013, I was running the big hospital system in Detroit, the Detroit Medical Center. And, Paul, as you remember, Detroit was in bankruptcy. And it's almost indescribable how bad things were. Half the street lights were out, the ambulances wouldn't show up for an hour. The parks were closed all summer long. The kids didn't have any place to play. And the employees at the hospital kept saying to me, you got to run for mayor. You got to run for mayor. And in an 83% black city, it seemed like the racial divide was going to be hard. But I went house to house, and over the course of the campaign, it was pretty remarkable. People embraced me. And I was the first white mayor elected in 40 years. And for 12 years, we've had great success working with the city council and bringing back new auto plants and building 6,000 housing units and getting the violence and the carjackings cut to historic lows. But in Michigan, your elected mayor is nonpartisan. And I worked with both the Republicans and Democrats, but the longer that I was there, the more the division between the two parties just got more and more hostile, to the point where the last couple years, the Republicans and Democrats can't even talk to each other. And in our state House in Lansing, everything. It's almost evenly divided. Michigan is such a purple state. Everything is about, does this help me get the majority? Does this help me keep the majority? And Lansing lost track of just solving problems for people. So I thought maybe it's time to offer voters another choice.
- [19:24]
A
So what's that been like? I mean, you got, you know, decades of relationships, right? You got decades of infrastructure. Now you're stepping out into a new space here without all of that party support. We've talked to many candidates about how hard it is. You're going to have to, you know, take a different path to get on the ballot. But can you talk about, you know, we have called on some folks to try to leave the Democratic Party. I've talked about folks like, like Jared Goldin in Maine, who feels like he could be on the edge. We've had Don Bacon, the Republican, who feels like they could break free. But for the folks who are thinking about it can you explain what that process has been like, leaving behind what his decades of allegiances and decades of support, quite frankly?
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B
Well, actually, a lot of those allegiances came with me and that's been an interesting thing because as mayor I had huge Democratic and Republican support as a nonpartisan mayor. Now immediately the Democrats cut me off. Act Blue, the Democratic fundraising operation, which I fully expected. But I've had 17 unions, traditional Democratic unions say I don't care what parties any solved our problem. So the carpenters and millwrights, one of the biggest unions in Michigan, the postal workers, the hospitality workers, the Detroit police and firefighters unions, 17 traditional Democratic unions came out and endorsed me. And now the Greater Detroit Chamber of Commerce, the Southeastern Michigan Chamber of Commerce, the Lansing Chamber of Commerce, the business groups are coming out and they're all saying the same thing, that this obsession in Lansing with the Republicans and Democrats fighting with each other is hurting this state badly. And so I didn't know it was going to happen. But in last year I raised more money than any of the Democratic or Republican candidates and it was half Democrat, half Republican money. And when I do it, the Republicans attack me saying he's still a Democrat and the Democrats attack me saying he's a Republican. But the polling yesterday shows I'm now beating the Democrats and Republicans. So there's a lot of people in this state want something different.
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A
Yeah. So let's dig into that if we can. The survey was released on Monday by the Detroit Regional Chamber. This is good news for you. It's got you and Benson and James basically at a statistical tie. I think Benson's at 30.9, you're at 30.3, James is at 29.5. We also had Sheriff Chris Swanson on the show a couple weeks ago. Look like he's pretty far behind. But he also, you know, if he loses the primary, he might jump in as an independent. I asked him if he would. He didn't rule it out. But for now it looks like a three way race and you're competitive. Can you, can you talk about that in a state where Michigan feels like it's ready to go independent? They've never had an independent. Governor, you got millions of independents in that state who feel underrepresented. Can you talk about how this matchup is shaping up? Because I think for independents to prove themselves, especially if you've been a Democrat, you want a Democrat and a Republican you can run against, you've got that, you've got the ability to contrast yourself against both. But can you react to those latest poll numbers and how you're standing right now.
- [22:29]
B
Well, when I started out, I was down at 15%. And everybody said, ah, an independent can't get anywhere. But I've been running for governor the way I ran for mayor. And so they invite me to a farm in Vassar, Michigan. I go spend the afternoon on the farm. They invite me to Port Huron and Lexington and some of these small villages. I go there in Grand Rapids. But Paul, what's happened here is in southeastern Michigan, you know, I'm very popular. I left with an 84% approval rating and I'm as popular in the suburbs as I am in the city. But when you go to the outstate areas, the Traverse Cities and the Grand Rapids that are not in the Detroit media market, I'm not known at all. And so what I've been doing is going city to city and village to village. And as I've been doing it, the numbers just keep rising. I went from 15 to 21 to 26 to this week's polling, 30. And we've done it without any big TV campaign. It has basically been saying, here's my education plan, here's my housing plan, here's my plan to get the jobs of the future here so our young people stay. And whereas the Democrats go right now and they go to the Democratic Club meetings and campaign, and the Republicans go now and go to the Republican Club meetings, campaign. I have to hold my own town halls and they're huge and people are laughing. Republicans and Democrats are in the room together and they find out, they like it, that we can have a conversation where we can disagree with each other and you can be in a room with your neighbors and nobody is trying to cancel you or criticize you. And what is happening here, the momentum is just remarkable.
- [24:14]
A
You got a tough road to hoe because you had another jersey, right? You wore a jersey and then you dropped it. Now you're in it. We saw this with Kirsten Sinema, we saw this with Joe Manchin, right? Where one of the biggest challenges they have, and I think you will have in Michigan, is shedding that Democratic brand. I'm going to talk about the Republican side in a second, but we know that the Democrats are extremely unpopular. Nationwide, only 27% of Americans consider themselves Democrats or Republicans. Independents are now over 45%. The numbers in Michigan among veterans and others, I'm sure, reflect that. But can you talk about how you're gonna detach yourself from what is a very unpopular party? Gretchen Whitmer obviously has now Been a national figure. There's talk about whether she'll run for president, but the Democratic Party is not popular. You're gonna have to run against your old team here in order to convince people that you're truly independent. Right.
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B
Well, the Democratic Party itself has been really helpful to me because they basically attack me every single day. They buck billboards against me, calling me moggin corrupt. The Democratic Party chair actually goes around in this T shirt that you probably get a larger size that says don't do Duggan's. And so the fact that the Democrats have been so obsessed with attacking me is the reason that I've gone up so quickly. But your point's an interesting one, Paul. And one of the questions that chamber asked was, what if there's only two people in the race, and if it's just Benson, the leading Democrat, and James, leading Republican, and I dropped out, it's dead even. But then they ask, what if the Democrat dropped out and it was an independent dug in against the Republican, James, and I win by 57 to 30, by 27 points. And then they ask the reverse question. What if the Republican drops out and I beat the Democrat, Benson by like 54 to 31? And what it's showing is 70% of this state doesn't want the Democratic governor. 70% of this state doesn't want the Republican governor. The reason the race is so close is because you only had two choices. And now that people in Michigan are really starting to see they have a real third choice, the level of interest is going up literally by the month.
- [26:34]
A
This is really important. Right. We've had this conversation on this show over the last couple of months, especially where there's kind of a slander in the political media that independents are spoilers. Independents can't win. We had Jesse Ventura talk about his campaign and remind everybody how he won a statewide office decades ago. We've talked to Mayor Yemi Mobilotti in Colorado Springs, Mayor Tim Kelly in Chattanooga, and I think your state is one of those examples where the Democrat is actually the spoiler. If you look at the opportunity here, you know, I would argue from the outside that the Democrat doesn't look like they can win. Maybe the Republican can win, but you're not the spoiler. The partisans increasingly are becoming the spoiler. But let me ask you a question. I ask of all the independents and especially the newer ones, how do you define independent? Mike, when you say I am an independent, people say, well, yeah, but. But what does that mean? Are you really an independent? How do you define what it means to be independent in this political landscape right now and in Michigan.
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B
So what I've said clearly is I'm not going to get involved in any of the House or Senate elections. That I don't care if the voters choose to elect a Democratic House, they elect a Republican Senate. I'm going to work with the people who are elected and not get involved in any of those elections. And then I'm going to build a partnership with people of goodwill. But I'm going to take what I did in the city of Detroit. We brought $10 billion in investment because we had a simple policy. We're not writing big checks to companies up front to come here. That's just not sound policy. But our position for 12 years was if you come and build new buildings here, we'll give you a discount on the new taxes you pay as you build and hire people. Most Republicans and Democrats can agree on that. We have now 60% of third graders in Michigan do not read a grade level. We're near the bottom of the country. The solution to that has been shown by Mississippi, Louisiana, Idaho and a number of others. You teach the 8 year olds phonics, you put them in small class settings when they're young, you have tutors to back them up and you have a curriculum is the same every year. Nothing about that is Republican or Democrat. But we've turned teaching third grade reading into a huge Republican Democratic fight in Lansing. And what I'm saying is I'm going to come in and do the right thing for the kids because I'm not running to be the Democrats governor or the Republicans governor. I'm running to be your governor. And that message is resonating and it resonates when you have, as you do in Washington now, basically the second government shutdown in three or four months at least the Homeland Security shutdown we had. The state budget in Michigan was three months getting. I was three months late getting adopted schools open without budgets because Republicans and Democrats are fighting with each other. And my definition of the independent is there are people of goodwill in both parties. And if Michigan elects an independent governor, it's gonna be a hell of a message to those legislators that if you don't stop fighting with each other and solve problems, we have another choice.
- [29:41]
A
So let's talk about Washington, because the State of the Union is tonight. That's gonna be a sight to behold, as it always is when Trump is president and when anybody's president. But let me ask you how you're gonna deal with him. Because he has gotten into epic battles with governors, including Gretchen Whitmer and others. Governors have been kind of like a circuit breaker, especially on some of the issues of deployment of National Guard troops, which could definitely, you know, if you become governor, it's gonna be a flashpoint. Trump threatens to send in the National Guard just about everywhere. But as an independent and just as someone with your experience, you're not gonna be able to stay off his radar. It's only a matter of time, if he hasn't already, that he'll start to tweet about you or come after you. How are you gonna deal with Trump, and are you going to be better positioned or worse positioned as an independent to be able to stand with Michigan in dealing with what is the biggest elephant in the room and will be the biggest factor on the political chessboard, no matter what happens?
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B
So, Paul, I already did. I mean, I was the mayor of Detroit all the way through Trump's first term and the first year this term. You have never seen Trump talk about National Guard or ice surge in Detroit. We have stayed off the radar by doing our jobs. And we have a good relationship in Detroit with Paul Gorgon, the U.S. attorney for the Trump administration, who last year deployed prosecutors in our precincts to help with gun violence. And we had the fewest homicides, the fewest shootings, the fewest carjackings in more than 60 years. And so there are people in this country who started out saying, hey, I want to fight with Trump. It helps me raise money, it helps raise my profile. I went just the opposite and said, if I can partner with you, I will. If I have to fight with you, I will. But in five years, you have not seen Detroit be on the radar. And this year, I give Gretchen Whitmer credit. You know, when the start of the second term, we had an Air Force base in North Macomb county called Selfridge. 5,000 jobs at stake, on the verge of being closed would have been devastating to the Macomb county defense industry. Gretchen Whitmer went repeatedly to the Oval Office. Now, people remember the picture of her putting the folder over her face, which she probably regrets that moment. But she convinced the president to reverse that decision. And the president came to Michigan, stood with Gretchen Whitmer and said, we're putting the next generation of fighter jets here. We're saving 5,000 jobs. Gretchen Whitmer deserves credit. And immediately Democrats, including the leading Democratic candidate for governor of Michigan, tweeted, there's nothing to celebrate here. How dare you work with the president to save 5,000 jobs. And so this is the Democratic Party that Michigan is evolving into. But Gretchen Whitmer's done a good job this past year keeping Michigan out of the radar, off the radar, by just not going out of her way to provoke fights.
- [32:44]
A
So you have not yet really differentiated yourself from Trump or the Republicans. So let me give you the mic and give you a chance to do that. You know, if you're truly independent, you can't be thrilled with everything this guy is doing. And ICE is probably the most important issue to most folks right now as they continue to expand their deployments across the country. I've argued they're unauthorized, they're unlawful, I think they're unconstitutional, and they're increasingly unpopular. I think I should be disbanded and defunded. I say that as a military officer myself and as someone who views them as really dastardly and dangerous. But let me ask you, you know, what's your position right now on ice, on Kristi Noem, and where do you separate yourself from the President and the gop?
- [33:28]
B
Well, I've separated myself without hesitation on a number of issues, starting with the one that's most impactful on Michigan, which is the tariffs. The Canadian tariffs are doing real damage to the Michigan economy. I've spoken out against the tariffs repeatedly. And in Detroit, for example, we have three assembly plants, two Jeep plants, and a GM truck plant. And the way the auto industry works is you source your suppliers from a 50 mile radius. Well, Windsor, Ontario is right across the river from Detroit. Huge numbers of parts, plant parts come in across Canada. And when the President put the tariffs on Canada, he put tariffs on cars assembled in Michigan. And we've had layoffs in our auto industry. And we have to get to a predictable plan, like pretty much everybody in Michigan. I think what's happened on trade policy nationally has been devastating. It certainly devastated the manufacturing industry in Michigan. You could do targeted tariffs on Mexico and China. That could bring manufacturing back. But the pattern we've seen of the unpredictability and the Canadian tariffs is hurting us. And so I speak out against that. It's not personal attacks. And there's nobody in the auto industry here that doesn't say that. What I'm saying is exactly right. And recently the Gordie Howe Bridge, which I worked with both Republican Governor Schneider and Democratic Governor Whitmer to get built with the Canadian government land in Detroit, when the President suggested he was delaying it, I spoke out against it. That's important for the economic development of Michigan. And so I don't have any issue at all disagreeing with the president when I disagree with him. On the other hand, when he brings 5,000 jobs to the Selfridge Air Force Base, I stand in support of that. And people in Michigan expect that of me. That when I disagree with the president, I'll say what I disagree on and when I agree with, I'll say what I agree with him on. And there are, of course, those who say you can't ever say anything positive about a Republican. I just don't agree with that.
- [35:36]
A
Mike, talk about ice. I mean, it's obviously concerning people all across this country, especially in places like Detroit. You know, how are you going to deal with Trump and ICE if you're elected governor?
- [35:48]
B
So this is the thing. People focus on how you deal with Trump and ice. But people forget Barack Obama deported a whole lot of people. The left called him the deporter in chief. And when I came in as mayor, I had a policy which was continued, long standing police policy. And it says this. Detroit police officers do not enforce federal law. The Detroit police will not ask your immigration status. If you're a victim of a crime, we don't ask your immigration status. If you're a witness on a case, we don't ask your immigration status. We built trust between the police department and if you think about it, if the, if the undocumented community is afraid to talk to the police, they become victimized. That was my practice. I'd say April of 2017, General Kelly, when he became Homeland Security Secretary, came to see me in my office. He said, I'm concerned about your policy. And I said, general, you can be concerned, but let me tell you how it works. We don't enforce federal law. On the other hand, when we arrest somebody for armed robbery and we take them to the Detroit lockup, we put their fingerprint in the system and ICE gets the fingerprint and ICE contacts us and says that person is an undocumented immigrant. We've been looking for and issues a detainer. We honor the ICE detainer and we turn that felon over to ICE at the police lockup. That's our policy. And General Kelly sat in my office and said, you know, I don't have any issue with that policy. In fact, I think that probably ought to be a model policy for the country. That was our policy under Obama. It was our policy under the first Trump administration, under Biden and under the first year. And I think it's the right policy and it's the reason you have not seen Detroit is not A sanctuary city. Sanctuary cities are refused to turn the people charged with crimes over to ICE on detainer. Detroit is not a sanctuary city. Michigan is not a sanctuary state. And I think the vast majority of people in the city of Detroit appreciate the position I took and appreciate the fact that we haven't had the kind of episodes you've seen in other states.
- [38:03]
A
Mike, with all due respect, those were simpler times. Right. And this is ICE has moved to a place that many would argue is unlawful. Right. You got three, at least three dead Americans now, American citizens who've been killed at the hands of ICE folks. Many folks across both parties have called for Kristi Noem to resign. Let me ask you just straight up, do you think she should resign, and do you think ICE should be in Detroit? Minneapolis and other cities want ICE out. That's the call you're gonna hear from people across Michigan. Should Kristi Noem go and should ICE go?
- [38:37]
B
You know, Paul, you and I may disagree on this. And certainly the tragedy we saw in Minnesota did not reflect law enforcement officers who were following any proper law enforcement officer training and the way they interacted with the public, the way they dealt with the deadly force. And I do think that the Michigan, the Minnesota State Police ought to be investigating and dealing with those issues. But, you know, I'm not saying ICE should be eliminated. That's not my position. I had a working relationship when Obama was there, when Biden was there, that said, if ICE wants to take a person who's committed a felony in Detroit and is an undocumented immigrant, I think that's a reasonable position. I know some people disagree with that.
- [39:30]
A
Yeah, but that's not really. Mike, the issue is when they detain Americans.
- [39:34]
B
Right?
- [39:34]
A
When they detain citizens, when they detain folks who have committed no crimes or videotaping. I mean, we're not talking about the worst of the worst. We're talking about everybody else, which now is a different video every single day. Right. I mean, this is a very different reality we're facing now with these guys, and Nome is at the top of it.
- [39:54]
B
So, Paul, you're focused on ice. The rules you're talking about apply to every single law enforcement agency at all levels. The Detroit Police Department for years was under Justice Department oversight because of the use of shootings on civilians. I got us out of federal oversight. We became the first city in America that went to 100% coordinated body and dashboard cameras, and we are vigorous in enforcing policy. We had 100 days of protests during the George Floyd period. We did not have a single store looted. We didn't have a single fire set in Detroit. But we were rigorous every day, saying to our officers, people have a right to protest. And this is how you handle the protesters. And we will not tolerate excessive force. We won't tolerate you violating the law. The same thing needs to be applied to ice. The same thing needs to be applied to the state police. And so I agree with you. You've seen actions that have been very disturbing. And I just say my record as mayor shows that we could manage protests in a non violent way in Detroit and they ought to be managed that way statewide. But as far as who should resign or not resign, I'm going to be a governor and I'm going to make sure what I did as mayor that the interactions between law enforcement and civilians are done professionally and appropriately.
- [41:32]
A
All right, I get it. You're not, you're not going to comment on whether Noem should go or not. And look, I respect what Detroit PD does. I'm just what all the state police do. But this. But ICE is not playing by those rules. I mean, ISIS playing by their own rules. They're unaccountable. I've argued, and many have argued that they're giving good law enforcement a terrible name. So I get it if you want to punt on that one for now. I hope you'll come back on the show and we can maybe reevaluate that one over time. But let me ask you what is maybe an easier question. You've got a different battle to get on the ballot, right? As an independent, you don't have the same infrastructure. So can you talk about where you are on that and what you have to do to just get on the ballot? That's different than what a partisan Democrat or Republican is going to have to do.
- [42:15]
B
Yeah, well, I've got to go get 30,000 signatures and I don't. We don't have a Democratic or Republican convention, but we're kicking off the signature gathering all over the state right now. The volunteers have been enormous in going out and doing it. We're going to file our signatures. We expect them to be scrutinized intensely, and we expect to file so many more signatures than are required, they have no way of playing a game with us.
- [42:48]
A
And how are you going to overcome the fundraising gap? I mean, that's the big drop when folks are afraid to jump in. As an independent, you mentioned how they kicked you off ActBlue, which should be a bit of a badge of honor. I wish more independents would ensure that they're off of ActBlue. I've called some of them out on it. But how do you overcome the fundraising gap and the visibility gap and the machine that these two other parties are gonna have up against you?
- [43:12]
B
Well, the interesting thing is, at the end of 2025, I raised more money than any Democratic or Republican candidates. The business community, it's the unions and the like. But the interesting thing is 90% of my money came from the state of Michigan. More than half of the leading Republican and Democrats money came from California and Texas and outstate. And this is what I'm up against, is the national fundraising machine. The people who know us best are supporting me. But as you know, the folks in California, they aren't interested in whether Michigan third graders can read. They want a Democratic or Republican governor for the 28 presidential. And so, you know, if. If your listeners like the idea of having an independent, they can go to mikedougan.com and send 10, $20. We're now trying to figure out how to build up a national fundraising operation for those people who want to have a third choice. And right now, I'm the one governor candidate in America that's in a dead heat as an independent. It's only February.
- [44:20]
A
I think that's very important, Mike. I mean, you know, as a movement, we're at this point where you are doing what I think many folks could potentially do, which is have the courage to break ranks with their longtime affiliations with the parties. They're afraid. They're afraid they can't do it without the money. They're afraid they're gonna get attacked from all sides, and they're afraid they're gonna lose. So I think yours is maybe the most important race in America. We've talked about the Senate races like Dan Osborne and others, but this is the race in showing that Democrats and Republicans can lose and that an independent can win and you can run a third, third course that's not only, you know, competitive, but viable. So, you know, you could be a key disruptor here and busting up the status quo. And I hope you'll come back on the show and keep us updated. I got a final question for you here. Your Pistons are kicking the crap out of my Knicks every time we play here. I mean, you guys are like the one team we can't get past. You know, maybe you could get the Pistons to turn it down a little bit when they play the Knicks next time. What do you think?
- [45:20]
B
Well, I was there through the playoff games, and we lost a heartbreaking series to you last year, but we're coming back bigger and stronger this year.
- [45:30]
A
It's an exciting time for Detroit. It's an exciting time for Michigan. You had a tough one against Duke the other day, but I think most of us, always rooting for Detroit, always rooting for Michigan. You gotta root for the underdog. And I think you guys are on the rise. And independence, especially in the state of Michigan, are really on the rise. And many of them are now finding out about you, Mike. They're going to join your campaign, donate. I'm going to be rooting for you, and I hope you'll come back again soon. Thank you for so much time. Thank you for having the courage to break ranks. I hope a lot more folks follow your lead.
- [46:00]
B
Thanks for having me, Paul.
- [46:03]
A
All right, folks, there you have it. Mike Duggan, independent candidate for governor of Michigan. The wave is growing, folks. More and more independent candidates are stepping forward. And more and more folks are declaring their independence from the Democratic and Republican Party. If that includes you. Sound off and let me know. You can send me an email. You can hit me up on social media. Let me know if you've declared your independence. I want to celebrate you and all the folks who are having the courage to break ranks, to leave the herds and declare their independence. I want to shout you out on this show and I'm going to continue to bring you candidates who meet the moment, who are stepping up and are taking different paths. Some were Republicans, some were Democrats. Some never wore either one of those jerseys. We say it a lot on this show. We're not just moving the needle. Independents are the needle, 45% and growing. If you like what you're hearing, go back and check out all our conversations with independent candidates. Last week I talked to Mike Thoreau, who's running as a firefighter in Wisconsin. We had Jesse Ventura, we've had Todd Achilles, we've had Mayor Yemi Mobilotti, Mayor Tim Kelly and many others. They're all on our website at IndependentAmericans US and also of course, on our YouTube page, Spotify and everywhere else where you can follow us, you can rate us and you can subscribe. Please go ahead and do that and leave comments on YouTube, leave comments and ratings on Apple podcasts and help us continue to grow this movement. When we started out a couple years ago, I think some folks were skeptical. But now they see it. More and more independents are running and more and more independents are winning. And America might be divided, but independents are bringing them together. And here at Independent Americans I want to do that, of course, add light to contrast the heat. Bring you some of this Tampa sunshine, especially if you're under the snow and you need it. And in advance of the State of the Union tonight, if you're now among the 45% of Americans who are independent, especially this is your show. But all are welcome because our movement is bringing hope for the future at a time when we need it to get through these final weeks of winter. Country over party, people over politics, light over heat, challenging the status quo. And our movement is growing and bringing hope, which is the oxygen of democracy. If you enjoyed this episode with Mike Duggan, please share it far and wide. Invite others to declare their independence. And stay vigilant, my friends, because eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. And no, you're not alone in your vigilance. We're all vigilant. We're all in this together. Shout out to everybody in the Northeast that's digging out, especially, look out for each other. I'm your host, Paul Rykoff, still trapped in Tampa, Florida. We'll see if I get out of here at any point soon, but thank you for tuning into Independent Americans. I will be back tomorrow with reaction to State of the Union and whatever else happens. Please help continue to spread our message. Have a great Tuesday, wherever you are. I will see you or you will hear me tomorrow. Until next time, stay vigilant, American. Stay Vigilant tells me the left and
- [48:47]
B
right are dreams for those without a clue and when you wake it's time
- [48:52]
A
to grow and it's not cool to believe in school but if I can say one thing I've seen the children of the revolution and the good trouble
- [49:00]
B
they can bring he says the red and blue I get an independent is an attitude an island in the sea of rhetoric and right Our dreams propose
- [49:13]
A
without a clue and when you wait it's time to grow Power by Righteous Media.