Rachel Maddow (4:50)

Family of Alex Brady?

Paul Rieckhoff (4:51)

For what?

Rachel Maddow (4:52)

For, you know, labeling him in a sash and with ill intent?

Paul Rieckhoff (4:55)

Well, again, I just described to you what I said about Alex Pretty, which is the. That he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ICE protest. Look, let me just say this. I think J.D. vance is a garbage human being. I think he's a piece of shit. I think just the way he responds to things and the way he acts is terrible. And it's just the climate that exists around this president, around him, and of course around ice, which continues to run rampant across America every day. More bad shit. Don't believe the government. Believe your eyes. And our friend Rachel Maddow, who's coming up, posted something that I want to bring your attention to that happened in Portland. Portland had protests and Portland had gas. And it was responded to by the Portland mayor who said, I knew they would do anything. They would hurt people. They murdered people. I knew that intellectually, but I still did not fully expect to get a gas them to gas a chill friendly protest full of nurses and teachers and children and the elderly. Here's the statement from the mayor of Portland, Oregon. To those who continue to work for ice, resign. To those who lost control this facility, to those who control this facility, leave. For those who continue to make these sickening decisions, go home, look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have gassed children. That's what they're doing. They're gassing children. They're also busting into houses without warrants, including one in Texas. Check this out. So this violent video, they bust into the house of a US citizen without a warrant, the family pushes back with children right there. This happened in San Antonio and Texas. And really important. The ICE agents leave. They don't arrest him, they don't detain him. They leave because they never should have been there to begin with. They should never be kicking indoors without warrants. And I would argue the whole thing needs to be disbanded and defunded. But they're detaining citizens and cops and kids and they're kicking indoors and they're kicking puppies for real. I mean, you can't make this shit up because it's a culture of cruelty. Check this out. A U.S. marshal kicking a dog here in Memphis. The woman who shared this clip with us called it unacceptable, saying power doesn't excuse abuse. So that's a Minnesota Safe Task Force Marshal kicking a puppy as they arrested a guy for a drug warrant. This is where we are. This is the culture of cruelty. It is a rotten culture from the top to the bottom to everywhere in between. And if they can do this to Renee Goode and they can do it to Chung Li, Scott Tao. And they can do it to William Vermeer and they can do it to William Ramos. They can do it to anyone and they can do it to you. From old ladies to puppies. And if you're not angry, you're not paying attention. They're ripping this country apart every day. More and more bad stuff. And Rachel's gonna tell us about another bad element involving dark prisons, secret prisons that you may not be tracking on, but you need to. All right, other news. Trump is still all gas, no brakes, continuing to wage a war on the free press. And he's got Kennedy waging war on your health. So as you go into your super bowl weekend, you may now know that Kennedy has made unfounded claims that a keto diet can cure schizophrenia. That's his latest crazy thing coming out. Now. Remember, he's rejected a lot of science. He's rejected evidence that HIV causes AIDS. He said that COVID 19, was ethnically targeted to spare Jews and Chinese people. And he's repeatedly insisted that vaccines are the cause of autism. The same, despite the lack of proof. This is constant. Don't lose track of the attacks on your health and on our press because it continues to come at you and they continue to come at enemies and adversaries and perceived enemies and all kinds of other people all around the world as Trump continues to try to still take over the Western hemisphere. Don't lose track of this. I spoke to a group of Danish business leaders here in New York last night trying to make sense of, of this moment and to tell them that Donald Trump does not speak to for all of us, for the majority of us, in the way he spoke about their fallen and their soldiers. I met with a Danish veteran who was gutted. He was in a crew of 20 people and they lost one guy. And think about that per capita, out of every 20, if you lost one guy. And he lost a friend in Afghanistan and he was full of tears and rage and disappointment as so many people are all around the country because of what Trump has said and because of what Trump has done. And it's not limited, of course, to Greenland. Don't forget about Venezuela, because they're back at doing strikes again. They did one yesterday. They posted a video that they allegedly hit a so called drug vehicle. A terrorist designated organization confirmed that the vessel was involved in narcotics targeting. They said two narco terrorists were killed. No military forces were harmed. Let me remind you, they are still all gas, no brakes. They are blowing past Congress. They don't care if it's popular and Whatever happened to that full video of the September 2nd boat strike? Whatever happened to the whole war crime thing? Bring Congress, bring leaders, bring your attention back to those things because they are still very important. And as we talk about combat, we talk about conflict, I always want to talk about veterans issues. And there's one very, very important issue that impacts veterans and impacts our whole world, and that's the suicide problem that continues to rampage the across the veterans community. And the annual suicide numbers were released yesterday. Now, the latest VA data on suicide was supposed to come out last fall, and it's finally out. And here's the bottom line. America is still losing our war against vet suicide. No president or party has turned that tide. And the vet lead, the VA leads by saying that the report shows a drop. They said there were suicides. There were 6,398 suicides among veterans, down from 64, 42 and 22. And then they go to the key findings, which are that suicide was actually up per 100,000 veterans. The number of women veterans was actually up. So the VA is saying that there's a drop, which is kind of data cherry picking spin is what it is. The overall number of vets is dropping significantly as older vets die. There are just less veterans. So these numbers show no progress. It actually shows the opposite because it's 17 veterans per day. Just over 17 veterans per day. Every day. Every single day. And increasing among men and women. And this data, by the way, lags by two years. So the most recent years will likely show it's even worse. I'm going to continue to stay focused on this. But America, please help us save our buddies and your sons and daughters and dads and moms. Reach out to the veterans crisis line if you need help or you know someone who needs help, I'll link to it in the show notes. All right. Speaking of folks who need help, Ukraine must remain on our radar because there's no Super Bowl Sunday over there. It's day 1444 of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. Still no peace deal that's unraveled like all the other allegations of Trump creating peace over there. Remember, he said he was going to have it done in the first couple of weeks. It's not. It won't end until we increase the pressure on Putin and until we recognize that at least what we should be doing right now is sending Ukraine tomahawks that they asked for two years ago. But the Ukrainian people continue to be a source of light in these dark times. Although Congress continues to be, in my view, morally bankrupt. The Republicans are driving us off a cliff. The Democrats suck and won't save you. But independents are trying to raise their voices and meet the moment every day. Hearing from more. You will hear from more next week. We'll also hear from Senator Ruben Gallego next week. Stay tuned for that. But Congress, this is a moment for you to step up on all these issues. On Venezuela, on the boat strikes, on suicide, on Trump posting racist stuff. Congress, now is the time for you to stand up and be counted. All right, we're going to talk in a minute with Rachel about how many people are stepping up and being counted as a breeze past culture. I just want to encourage everybody over the weekend, if you need a little bit of a lift, go back and check out all the Grammy artists. Check out all the artists who spoke out especially bravely in this last week, whether it was Bad Bunny or Bon Iver or Shaboozi. Go back and check out the artists that spoke out and make note of the artists who suddenly got quiet. Jelly Roll, who said he didn't have enough information to comment, has also testified before Congress and been photographed with some right wing folks who I wonder if he's going to change his language but support the people who are speaking out and get a little light and music in the spirit of Bob Marley. All right, considering that this is super bowl weekend, there is a lot of super bowl news. There have been more NBA trades. Some big news. Giannis is not leaving Milwaukee as of my recording. Giannis, I can Tumbo will be staying in Milwaukee, which is good news for them. I'm happy about that with regard to my Knicks because I don't think they should mix it up. The NFL honors were last night, so they gave out. I want to start with what I think is the most important award, the man of the Year. The Walter Payton man of the Year recognizes excellence on the field and off. It's named after the great running back from from the Chicago Bears. And commander's linebacker Bobby Wagner was this year's recipient. Christian McCaffrey got the salute to Service award for his work supporting US Service members. Defensive Rookie of the Year, the inspiring Carson Schwezinger from the Cleveland Browns, a guy who was a walk on and at ucla. Defensive Player of the Year, the incredible Miles Garrett who broke the sack record. Coach of the Year, Mike Vrabel, a great leader, someone we should all respect whether you're a Patriots fan or not. More with Rachel on that in a second. And Matthew Stafford got the MVP and the closest vote since 2003. He just edged out Drake May, who also had an extraordinary season. Also of note, the Pro Football hall of Fame announced its newest inductees with five players, including the great quarterback Drew Brees, wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald, Adam Bennett, Terry Luke Kukley, and Roger Craig, the great running back from the 49ers. Yes, it is super bowl week and we need the Super Bowl. We need sports. Yes, times are hard, but we still need joy. We still need community. We still need a shared experience as Americans, because joy is a form of resistance and so is thoughtfulness, and so is staying vigilant. And our guest coming up is going to give you a Super bowl of a conversation. She is many things, including a very passionate Patriot fan, but one of the smartest people I know and she's going to help us on this Super Bowl. If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Friday especially. And in these crazy times In February of 2026, she is going to help us all stay vigilant. All right, folks, helping us stay vigilant on this super bowl football Friday, which has become a Super bowl day of news and madness, is a returning champion. One of my favorite people, the host of the Emmy Award winning Rachel Maddow show, which is on Ms. Now on Mondays at 9. As the PR people told me to make sure to mention, she has released her fifth original podcast, which is absolutely awesome, called Burn Order, which exposes a crazy chain of events behind the government's decision at the outset of World War II to incarcerate tens of thousands of immigrants and US citizens solely based on race. Hmm. Timely, right? A true Patriot at a time when we need true Patriots. And a true Patriot fan when the Patriots are again in the Super Bowl. To my chagrin, the great and powerful Dr. Rachel Maddow is back on Independent Americans. Welcome back, my friend.

Rachel Maddow (17:23)

It's nice to see you. How are you?

Paul Rieckhoff (17:25)

I'm, I, I'm better than our democracy.

Rachel Maddow (17:28)

Are you wearing a Giants jersey?

Paul Rieckhoff (17:30)

I. I wore it all for you, my friend.

Rachel Maddow (17:33)

Oh, God.

Paul Rieckhoff (17:34)

You know who this is? It's gonna be a quiz.

Rachel Maddow (17:36)

Oh, is this A what? Is this a Manning? No, no, no. It's a high number, so it can't be a Manning. Who is it?

Paul Rieckhoff (17:42)

It's Mark Bavaro, the great gritty lunch pail tight end. And this is a Super bowl jersey from 19. I wore it specially for you and because even though my Giants aren't in, I always want to represent.

Rachel Maddow (17:55)

So is it. Totally. Okay. First of all, I have to ask if you love the Giants more or hate the Patriots more.

Paul Rieckhoff (18:03)

I'm a lover, not a fighter. I mean, I love the Giants much more than I hate the Patriots.

Rachel Maddow (18:08)

Your hate for the Patriots is deep, though, you have to admit.

Paul Rieckhoff (18:13)

We're going to get to this, okay? Because we're going to go to football Friday. Later in this conversation, we got a lot of other much less fun shit to talk about, but I like this Patriots team. It's hard not to like. I love Vrabel, Drake. May is awesome. I love the culture. I mean, it's. It's a lot different when it's not Belichick and Brady, you know, fighting out with the Giants. Like, I don't. I don't hate them.

Rachel Maddow (18:36)

Yeah, I got. So are we going to talk about the Giants owner Epstein thing, or do we save that for football Friday, too? Go for it.

Paul Rieckhoff (18:44)

No, go for it. I mean.

Rachel Maddow (18:45)

I mean, what do you. What do you. What are they going to do? He can't be an NFL owner and have that in the Epstein files, can he? I mean, don't they. Doesn't the NFL have to. No. What do you think's gonna happen?

Paul Rieckhoff (18:59)

I don't know. This is gonna be, like, the theme of our entire discussion today probably is, like, people are doing crazy shit that they shouldn't be able to do, but they're doing it now without accountability. And there's a real question in this country about whether or not these people have a different set of rules, including with the President, most of all. Right. I mean. I mean, the NFL has been kind of malleable lately. Goodell didn't really answer the hard questions about Bad Bunny and about other things. So I think, like so many other businesses, they're walking a fine line, or.

Rachel Maddow (19:31)

They don't think there is any line. Like, it's like they're in. Once your income is above a certain level, like, there's no laws that apply to you. It's just simply. It's not even what you can get away with because there's no even sense of needing to evade anything. Like, there's no what. Who's going to come for you. But I got to, I do feel like, I mean, what we've lived through, particularly in the past year, is all these different kinds of elites making all these different, terrible, terrible, terrible decisions. And us, everybody else in the country trying to figure out not only how to defend the country against the bad decisions they're making, but also what possible accountability and leverage can there be against these people? And when they are part of something that is public facing, you know, or sort of, you know, retail that has, where regular people can give them feedback that will matter to them, that's the only kind of accountability that we're seeing. And the NFL is that, like, I think if, if the players union and the players and the advertisers and the fans made this matter in the NFL, it would matter in the NFL. We can't just like, depend on Roger Goodell, like having the, having the right instincts, you know what I mean? And I feel like that's true for a lot of different. It's true for a lot of different things that we've got right now. Like the, the, the universities, I think, found their spines a little more than the law firms did because alumni who are donors to the universities started speaking up and making them embarrassed and their own students started speaking up and making them embarrassed. Whereas these white shoe law firms, like, who's their public, you know, who's. Who do they answer to? So the leverage is the people rather than the other elites.

Paul Rieckhoff (21:13)

And I think we're going to keep coming back to that, too. But when we get to our top topics, the kind of overall theme I've been using is all gas, no brakes. Right? It's all gas, no brakes, no guardrails, no accountability. And I was on your show a couple weeks ago and I said, I'm going to continue to say, especially with regard to the military, he has total control over the most powerful military on the planet and nothing's slowing him down.

Rachel Maddow (21:37)

So.

Paul Rieckhoff (21:37)

So fuck the Giants. Like, the Giants are one thing. He's got the Department of Defense and he's doing whatever he wants. And Roger Goodell is not gonna slow down the owners of the Giants. But the Democrats don't seem to be able to slow down Trump either on anything.

Rachel Maddow (21:52)

Right. It's interesting thinking about, I know that you've been really keeping your eyes on the whole Insurrection act, the threat around that, and him continually bringing it up and continually bringing it up and then backing off and then bringing it up and backing it off. And I was thinking about, I hadn't connected these things before. But today, I was just thinking about the way that the Democrats in Congress, Mark Kelly, Alyssa Slotkin, all of them who did the video, the don't obey illegal orders video, are now not only in Slotkin's case, not only telling Jeanine Pirro and the Justice Department, I am not cooperating with your criminal investigation into a video that I made that says that troops shouldn't obey illegal orders, but you should preserve all your documents because there's gonna be litigation against you that you're gonna have to answer on this going on offense about it. And, you know, in that story, there's a bunch of different things going on. It's Congress standing up for itself, getting up on its hind legs a little bit. It's naming the Justice Department as the problem here. Like, Trump is a fixed variable. He, like, you're not gonna. You're not gonna change Trump. But Trump should not be able to use the Justice Department the way he. So pushing back on the Justice Department specifically is really important. But then there's the whole heart of where this story started in the first place, which is don't obey illegal orders. And for the Democrats who made that video, whatever you think about it, to be taking a stand on that keeps that point alive and really puts a focus on the freakout that the President and the administration had about anybody giving that kind of advice. I mean, it's really, really important. It's going to be the future. It's going to be the future of the Republic.

Paul Rieckhoff (23:38)

I agree. And that's why I brought it up on your show and why I want to talk about it. Almost like unto itself, because it is the thing, in my view. And the Insurrection act is kind of like maybe the most critical circuit breaker that we could have between now and the election in the fall, which might be another circuit breaker. But there's also kind of another piece of this, which is what the Democrats are doing is, you know, Trump said, fuck you, and they said, no, fuck you. So now we have this like, whole world of fuck me, no, fuck you, none of us care. Everybody's full gas. And it's like, come for me. Right? Which creates this kind of, on some levels, this destructive fight club world of politics, where the only thing that really maybe does create accountability, maybe it's a lawsuit, is, on some levels, shame. Right? And we're seeing that with ice. Like, you can't stop them from using warrants, and you can't stop them from wearing masks. You can't stop them from kicking in your door, but you can show the whole world who they look like. And that accountability, especially now that we've got the names of the two people who murdered Alex Preddy, that may be the ultimate accountability, is the power to the people to say, we can show who you are and you will be publicly accountable for your actions.

Rachel Maddow (24:49)

It's shame, but I also think it's the fight. I mean, you know, if you look at the kind of propaganda that the administration has been producing, operations and CBP operations, they are celebrating the cruelty. They want to look as monstrous and militarized as possible, right? Like they, they love that. They love the violence. They're. They're reveling in the violence and the Gore. What, what turned them around, I think, in Minneapolis was both the nationwide exposure of what they're doing. So they can't control all the propaganda. Everybody's seeing it from every angle, but it's also just literally hundreds of thousands of people in the streets saying no. And I think the average American who doesn't care much about politics looks at, you know, that little kid, that five year old, right, being arrested and taken to Texas, like what? You know, looks at that and does not side with the people who did that and looks at the people in the streets and said, who are protesting against it and saying, I actually, I side with them. I don't think of myself as a protester. I don't think of myself as a liberal. I'm not even against immigration enforcement. But those people are right. And the people who are who shot those who shot that mom and who shot that nurse and who took that little kid and who are throwing tear gas at, you know, old people and toddlers and strollers and people out with their dogs, like, those are the people who I'm against. And I just think it's instinctual, it's apolitical, it's just moral.

Paul Rieckhoff (26:16)

I think it's true and it's powerful. It's kind of like, hey, they can't fucking stop us, all right? But here's the problem. They can. And that's when the Insurrection act comes in. And that's what we saw in Iran. And that's what has always been held back and what might not be held back going forward, which is what I worry about most of all, because the 11th Airborne Corps, to my knowledge, is still on standby to go into Minneapolis. And the church became a flashpoint with don Lemon and J.D. vance going there. And, you know, I, and others have often said that I think he wants the violence, he wants a spark so that he can bring in the hammer. And the more unpopular he gets, the more people turn out in the street, the more desperate he will have to become in order to preserve that power and the more likely he is to use it. Right. I mean, it's like, it's kind of like flipping the Putin argument with nukes back here. Right? I mean, it's like at some point and he said he will do it, so that's why I want to believe him. But. All right, let me pause. Let me pause and reset. I ask every guest, and I don't want to breeze past this. You asked me, where are you and how are you?

Rachel Maddow (27:20)

I am in western Massachusetts, which is where I am almost all the time. And I'm very happy here. And I'm good. I grew up in California. I now live in rural western New England. And I love winter because I really like ice fishing. And so this is a very cold winter, and there is a ton of ice. And I have gone ice fishing three times in the last five days. And it's. I'm completely exhausted and I'm like, I look like I've been beaten. Like, I'm completely covered in bruises and my nails are splitting and I'm a mess. But I. It's my happy place. It's the. And I only get to do it, you know, a few weeks a year because our winters are getting milder and milder and shorter and shorter. And so ice season, you never know how much of it you're going to get. We're having a great ice season. It's a total cardio workout to go ice fish right now because we have so much snow on top of the ice. Was out yesterday with my friend Dan, and we were like slogging through with thigh deep snow. And then you want to go drill a hole in the ice and you have to shovel down three feet of snow to get to the ice and then drill down through two feet of ice. So it's like, it's. I. This. I love it. It's not everybody's cup of tea, I know, but I love it.

Paul Rieckhoff (28:34)

It's amazing. And I. And I love it because you love fishing. I know that. And, and you sent me pictures of the ice fishing at times, and I'm just like, this is fucking nuts. I don't know where you are now.

Rachel Maddow (28:45)

You don't have any desire to. You don't. I can tell. You have.

Paul Rieckhoff (28:48)

No, no. You know, I lived in Maine and I like the cold. I was in the mountains for a couple years. I love winter in the mountains and I Love the area where you are. I don't mind it. I don't know if it's like high on my priority list right now versus like being in the gym coaching basketball. But you know, I love fishing with the kids. Like fishing with the kids is like fishing reborn in the way so many other things are. And fishing with, with friends. Right. Like that's always great. But what have you caught? What do you use as bait and what have you, what do you catch up there?

Rachel Maddow (29:20)

So I mean, mostly what I fish for when it's open water season is pike. So I fish for, I, I, I fish for pike now and pike are hard to catch. Not as hard to catch as muskies, but they're hard to catch and they're toothy and they're big and they, they like to, they live in ugly places like pike, like, like swampy kind backwaters and stuff. So like you have to get to places that are places you wouldn't otherwise stop into. Right. So I love, I love that. And when you're ice fishing, you can ice fish for pike, but you have to use really big live bait. And I'm a little squeamish about live bait. Like the smaller the better, you know what I mean? Like, I'm okay with using like maggots or worms or maybe little shiners, but when you get to like, you got to put an 8 inch or a 9 inch sucker on a big hook and drop it below a tip up.

Paul Rieckhoff (30:16)

And I don't like you're getting Kristi gnome cruelty vibes there. Right.

Rachel Maddow (30:21)

Yeah. You know, I mean, because I, when I open water fish, I never use bait. So I only use bait in ice season. But I can kind of, I can't really. So. But yeah, so yesterday I caught perch and pickerel and I'm going out. I'm going to be in New York for a few days, but then I'll be back up here and then I'm going to go, I'm going to try, I'm going to try to do some pike fishing through the ice, but I don't know, we'll see. And I jig and I use tip ups. And when you jig for ice fishing, it's like you have a thing that looks like a fishing rod, but it's Barbie sized, it's only like this long and it has a little tiny reel because you're sitting really close to the hole. So that's also funny. I like things that are the wrong size, which is part of why I've always Loved you, my giant friend.

Paul Rieckhoff (31:05)

I'm not that giant. Like, yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not WWE giant. I mean, we had Jesse Ventura on the show a couple of days ago. I mean, that dude's. My son. Said, that guy's even bigger than you, dad.

Rachel Maddow (31:18)

Is he still, like, jacked? Is he still.

Paul Rieckhoff (31:21)

I mean, he basically challenged Trump to a fight. He said, you know, let's get the criminal across from the frogman, you know, like, and he still can cut a promo. And I pulled up the promos of him from like the 80s and showed my son. He was just. Wow. Yeah, right. He also told the story about going to a steakhouse with Donald Trump and Woody Harrelson, and he said Woody Harrelson kept going outside to smoke a joint because he was so. The environment was so intense with Trump. But. Yeah.

Rachel Maddow (31:52)

Was he ever, like, friends with Trump?

Paul Rieckhoff (31:54)

No, it doesn't seem like they were friends, but he said Trump. I mean, this is. Folks who heard this episode and those who haven't go back and check. He talked about when he got elected as the independent governor because Trump was interested in independent politics and they were looking for more candidates. And at that time, Trump kind of fit the mole.

Rachel Maddow (32:11)

He was going to do Reform Party and all that stuff. Yeah, I remember that.

Paul Rieckhoff (32:14)

Yeah. But I mean, there's always. Anyway, I think a physical showdown would, would be welcomed. I mean, I'm not going to say I want to encourage violence, but I do think if Trump had to stand across from bad dudes more often, it would be important for our democracy.

Rachel Maddow (32:31)

Isn't he going to do an MMA fight at the White House for like the 4th of July something? Shouldn't there be a round that involves him?

Paul Rieckhoff (32:40)

I asked Jesse about this. I mean, I asked Jesse about it particularly. I mean, there, there is the, the overinflated, like, radioactive fake masculinity that radiates from their entire crew. And this is probably going to be like, like the latest apex of that. But I also have challenged them to a, a pull up contest since they like pull ups so much. I think we should, at the Army Navy game, have RFK Jr. And Trump go down in the middle and have like Mikey Sherrill and Wes Moore. Right. Or other people. And like, and RFK Jr. Has to do a drug test before he goes up in the bar.

Rachel Maddow (33:17)

I think that if they do choose.

Paul Rieckhoff (33:18)

Your fighter time, Rachel, it's choose your fighter and you're people's fighter.

Rachel Maddow (33:22)

I mean, with, well, with drug testing, I think that's really, really, really important. It's like, without drug testing, I would take RFK for anything. Like, that man could walk to the moon with whatever he's on. But with drug testing, I'm actually not worried at all. I think. I think that would be a good point.

Paul Rieckhoff (33:40)

Well, you know, yesterday he said keto diet cures schizophrenia. So at some point, we're going to have to have a conversation about steroids, and maybe Jesse could be the guy to have it with him. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why Jesse Ventura can be uniquely helpful and disruptive in this moment. So I'm putting that he's also like.

Rachel Maddow (33:56)

Trump's cultural era, too. Like, Trump's cultural understanding kind of stops at the Jesse Ventura era, if he did take him up. I mean, I'm just thinking about the Fourth of July thing. Like, I think, how old is Jesse?

Paul Rieckhoff (34:08)

He's in his season, gotta be like 75 or so.

Rachel Maddow (34:10)

He's close to Trump's age, I think if he, like, reiterated this, like, on your show, as he did, but, like, over and over again, and then said, listen, I will literally tie one hand behind my back and I will fight you with one arm. And we are the same age. We'll drug test, it's fine, it's whatever. But, like, you wanna do an MMA thing? Like, let's do it.

Paul Rieckhoff (34:31)

Yeah. Jesse's 74, and he actually talked about how Trump is kind of that guy who, you know from when you're a kid in a fight who doesn't actually fight, he's the one who kind of talks shit and maybe sucker punches you and then hides in the back while the other people have to fight. Right? I mean, that's really kind of who he is. But anyway, here we go. We're getting pulled into, into accepting physical violence, which I reject on all forms, right? Indeed. But let's. Let's pivot into what I think is no shortage of violence. But our top topic, Okay? And I think. How do I. How do I start a top topic with you? But here's what I. What I was thinking, okay? He's all gas, no brakes. He does whatever he wants with the military, potentially with little girls, with his social media, and then today with this absolutely shameful, outrageous, racist post, right? I mean, the Washington Post headline was, Trump Shares Video Depicting Obamas as apes. Right? And I just want to make sure that we never normalize it, we never accept it, we never excuse it. And I think there is no excusing it, but it's another example of all Gas, no brakes, Throwing the middle fingers up to things that would normally kill your career. If we did that, we'd be fired. If our colleague did that, someone worked with us, you'd be immediately fired. But I think it's maybe most of all another manifestation of how he feels totally unchecked. He feels like he can do absolutely anything he wants. And so far, he's right. So I just want you to react to that, because it's not just the racist posts. It's the use of the military. I spent last night talking to Danish leaders here in New York. I had to find five ways, in Danish to say, I'm sorry. I mean, we have to apologize. And someone asked me, like, we don't know. They said, we don't know if we can ever trust you again.

Rachel Maddow (36:31)

Yeah, right.

Paul Rieckhoff (36:32)

And he's done all of these things. So let me ask you to address, you know, the moment we're in where he is totally unencumbered.

Rachel Maddow (36:39)

Yeah. I mean, I think we should also be specific about it. I mean, there's something going on with his verbal acuity and his emotional equilibrium. Like, I. I don't. I'm not a. I'm not trying to say this as if I'm coming from any place of medical expertise, but it does seem like there's. That he's unwell. His lack of impulse control, his lack of restraint is the sort of thing that you see in, you know, elderly people who are having neurological problems. And I don't know if that's what's going on with him, but if you look at the way his verbal skill set has eroded, the way that he speaks has become much more repetitive, much less linear. His vocabulary has really noticeably shrunk, and he. Whether or not he ever has ever wanted to restrain himself or discipline himself in terms of the way he expresses himself, he seems unable to do that. The. The. The physical insult, insulting the. The physical. Physical elements of female reporters and saying it, and then, like, getting a. Clearly getting, like, a little charge out of saying it. And then he says again and again and again and again. Like this thing where he attacked Caitlin Collins from CNN and said that she needed to smile or whatever. He said it, but then he said it again, and he said it again, and he said it again, and he said it again. And I just feel like, you know, a lot of us, you know, you've seen this in your families or your friends families, and this is the, like, you know, dad's gonna have to not have the driver's license any more time, and So I think there is some of that going on, and I don't think it means that he's, you know, sick and dying. I think he seems healthy as a horse, but I also think he seems unwell. And so we're in sort of mad king territory. He does see himself, I think, as a king. I think he sees himself as president for life. He doesn't think that there should be elections, and if there are elections, he shouldn't be constrained by the results. And he doesn't think that the government exists for any reason other than to serve the cause of him staying in power. I don't think he sees anything of value in what the government does other than preserving his own power. And so it's just like it's an archetypal despot at this point. And so that's why I say, you know, Trump is a fixed variable. Like, I don't think when you're talking about shame and stuff, like, I don't think shame applies to him. I don't think hoping that he'll be better is a useful thing. I don't think even praying for him to be better is all that useful at this point, even though it sort of pains me to say that because it's against my faith. I think what's important now is that you think about the tools that he has at his disposal. And you try to take the driver's license away from dad because he's unwell. You try to make sure that there aren't sharp knives around. Like, you try to make sure that the Justice Department, for example, isn't there for him.

Paul Rieckhoff (39:53)

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Rachel Maddow (39:58)

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Paul Rieckhoff (39:59)

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Rachel Maddow (40:22)

Terms apply to use as the way a mad king would, and the military and the other tools at his disposable. You need to focus on the tools available to him now, not just hammock, because I think his. His intentions and his failures are clear.

Paul Rieckhoff (40:37)

I think that's really important because I think that folks are getting swept up in the blitzkrieg of stuff, and they lose the plot and they lose the focus. That's why I always bring it back to national security. And that's why I think he started with national security. That's why he put Hegseth up first to be a culture warrior to seize the Pentagon. Because once you get that chess piece, then all the other chess pieces become easy, as has turned out to be true. Right, but. And I want to ask you about the taking away the keys, but can you talk about the tweet in particular? I mean, as someone. I think you got me on Twitter or I got you on Twitter back when it was Twitter before it became this manifestation. But this today, I mean, we always say, like, is this a new low? But, like, this is an overtly racist thing that now Senator Scott called a racist thing and has said the most racist thing he's had to come out of the White House. This is. This is very, very bad, right? I mean, in a world of very, very bad things, an openly racist president posting racist things is very, very bad at a time when we've got so many divisions in this country and some people want to fuel a race war. Right? I mean, but can you talk about this, this, this moment and this thing? Because I do feel like we can't just blow past it because. And I'm going to get to the point on this, this is impeachable, right? In normal times, this is impeachable. And I would argue there are many things that are impeachable, and none of them, I don't know any of them that have actually called for his impeachment. So they're not trying to take the keys away from Grandpa. And whether he's got a mental problem or he's just an old guy who doesn't give a shit anymore because he's going to die soon, and he's like, fuck it, I'm doing whatever I want. We do have to slow him down and stop him. And it doesn't seem like anyone's really using the tools to actually remove him from office or even talk about it, which I think is important from an accountability standpoint. Because if anybody did that in any other job, you'd sit down with HR tomorrow and they'd have a conversation, right?

Rachel Maddow (42:24)

No, I mean, I think that one of the things that would be useful when he does something like this or when we find out that his family took hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for him doing, essentially providing the most advanced AI capable chips to China, which is something that we had decided at a national security level we shouldn't do, but he did it anyway because his family got paid to do it. Any of these things are A, impeachable, but B, they show that he's unfit for the office and doing real damage to the country. I mean, with the racist tweet, I mean, there's two, I think, consequences of that. One is that it electrifies the racist right. Right. It electrifies and energizes and galvanizes and excites and sort of tells. Tells the racist right that they can, whatever it is they they've most ever wanted to go for, they should go for it. And so that's really consequential in terms of literally like terrorism consequences of that and hate crime stuff. And, you know, and, and the organized. What's happening in terms of the organizing of the very far right. And I mean, like the neo Nazi. Right. The other thing it does is it turns off normies. Right. So people who aren't that and who can recognize maybe they think that Trump's racist jokes all along have been sort of amusing and it just shows that he's on PC. And I like that. Like, this isn't amusing. And it's not. It's inarguably gutter racism from the president. And I think it turns people off. And I think that to the extent that other people are trying to build a sort of pro democracy big tent mobilization against Trump, that is, that's useful and you should try to capitalize on it. But I think the way it should manifest is that people should just call for him to resign. Like, yes, when the Democrats take the House, they will impeach him again for stuff like this. That will, that will likely happen if he keeps doing stuff like this. Or they could impeach him for the things he's done in this first year in office. There's about 12 or 15 impeachable offenses that I could name off the top of my head right now. I do think he cares about impeachment. I don't think enough Republican senators will ever find enough testicles among them to ever actually remove him from power through the impeachment process. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't. We shouldn't try. That's the system that our constitutional republic is supposed to use to remove an unfit leader. Okay, so we should, that should happen if he keeps doing stuff like this. But short of that, I think in the same way that people have called for Kristi Noem to resign because of what's happened at Homeland Security under her leadership, there should be calls for the president's resignation. And, you know, Tim Scott, his reaction to what the president did today, the obvious next thing you should say after you've diagnosed exactly what the president did, is say that, you know, an apology and a resignation is the right next step. And I don't say, you know, it's not just Tim Scott who should call for it. Everybody should. And I think that should become more part of our lexicon.

Paul Rieckhoff (45:31)

I, that, that's, that's what I agree 1000%. I want to hear people have a spine and say, this can't be ignored. This must be addressed. And I, and I, and I, I put this out earlier on. Social history is going to judge you as a coward if you haven't called for this. Now, I think, and, and silence is complicity. And, and of course, he also connected it to the big lie and the election component. Right. So it's just, I think, especially, you know, we want, we need Republicans, obviously, to break the seal, Tim Scott. But we also need Democrats. I mean, a lot of them voted for Kristi Noem, and a lot of them now have this. Oh, I had no idea. Well, you should have had an idea. You should have been doing your homework. But let me ask you a really important question. Around, around this, around all of it, right? How do you think it ends? Like, how do you think this ends? Where does this go? Right. And it's tied into the Insurrection act, which I think we have to talk about, right? I've talked about it a lot because I think he said he wants to do it. He had Ruth Ben Guillot on here. We've had Asherangapa, we've talked about this. The Freedom Caucus put out a press release last week that most folks didn't cover that said, we support your use of it if you want. So it's becoming normalized. Right. And he telegraphs his punches. So do you think he's gonna do it? And where do you see this all going? Because a lot of folks are asking me that, too, and I have multiple scenarios. But you're great at understanding history and also projecting and projecting what could happen. Where does this go, Rachel? Where are we going?

Rachel Maddow (47:03)

I mean, I don't know. Our fate is in our own hands. Our fate is not in Trump's hands. It's in our own hands. And I think that the most important thing that has happened in the past year is that the American people have rejected this so soundly. Right? So not only is Trump's approval rating, like, 24, 25 points underwater, but in the most recent round of polling, the number of Americans who say they strongly disapprove of Trump overall as president is in the majority. And so that means, you know, we think of there being like, a big middle and like, the extremes on the ends. It's the. The big middle, The. The mainstream of the country despises Trump and believes by like, 60, 60% margins that Kristi Noem should either be removed from her job or should resign. I mean, the. The. The approval numbers on immigration, which were always among Trump's strongest, are now among his weakest. The things he wants to be known for, the economy, right, Immigration, his personal charisma and, you know, people liking him or whatever, it's all completely upside down. And there is big, mainstream, peaceful, disciplined, regular, scalable protest against him everywhere. And that is really important. And I think that's actually going to be the most important metric or the most important variable, I guess I should say, in terms of determining our faith, determining our fate. Excuse me. And so when we think about where this ends, I think the American people are the limiting principle here. He, obviously, I think, wants to never leave office and wants to rule with an iron fist and wants to wage war on his own people and wants to use the US Military with live ammunition against American citizens. Like, it's very clear what he wants, wants to do. But him wanting that is not enough. Him trying it is something that will be resisted at every level. And we need to start thinking. If there's one thing that I would just encourage people to start thinking sort of more strategically about is this idea of what tools Trump has. Don't focus so much on him and on what he says and what he wants. You know exactly who he is and exactly what he wants. If you stop paying attention to him for three days, when you come back four days later, he'll still be the same guy he was when you stopped paying attention to him, and you'll be happier for your mental health. What you need to focus on is whether or not tools like the Justice Department, the military, the Congress, the other things that he's using to do his worst are becoming. Are subject to the same kind of constraint that we all want to impose on him.

Paul Rieckhoff (49:55)

This is what's next, right? And I think too often people are focused in the blitzkrieg of what's happening and not thinking about what's happening next. I said I think on your show, and I say it a lot, there's a failure of imagination, like a devastating failure of imagination, especially folks saying the protests are going to Increase. The protests are going to increase. That's great. But what do you think he's going to do? He's not necessarily just going to say, you know what, there's a lot of protesters. My favorability rating is down. I'm leaving. Right. And he didn't leave last time.

Rachel Maddow (50:22)

But he didn't leave. But he did. I mean, it did scale back what he was doing in Minneapolis. Right.

Paul Rieckhoff (50:28)

That's where. I don't know if it did. And this is where I would beware about the short term win. That's not a long term victory. Right. I think he's toggling. I think he's toggling. I think he's pulling back in Minneapolis. He's still going deeper in Portland. He's going deeper in Texas. He's going deeper in Phoenix. It's a battlefield, right. And he can pull back on ice and go in with more National Guard that are federalized and he can pull back with ice and potentially go in with federalized troops, especially if there's a violent attack or something else that he wants to use to animate. So he's thinking long term, I think, about preserving his power most of all and using all of those tools to protect his power. But he, the thing I know people want wins, right. But I think we have to be mindful of the long term battle that we're in. And the most important phase lines, I think are whether or not he invokes the Insurrection act and whether or not we have free and fair elections in the fall, because the first one.

Rachel Maddow (51:21)

But it's not up to him, right? He doesn't like doing things that are hard. He likes doing things that are easy. He thinks that exercise is bad because a body is filled with a battery and every time you move it brings the battery down a little bit. So you better not move too much. This is a man who does not like resistance. This is a man, right? This is a man.

Paul Rieckhoff (51:41)

I don't want to count on that. Right. I want to plan for the most dangerous course of action. This is a man who still hit Venezuela and wants to hit Iran again and wants to invade Greenland. I mean, you know, I've said he's, he's grew. He wants the moon from Despicable Me. He wants it all. And he can't stop his insatiable appetite. So if he had what happened with.

Rachel Maddow (51:58)

Greenland, like, so he's, he's like gonna go to Greenland. He's so excited. The movies that he saw about how wonderful in Greenland. No, he wants, he wants to go. And then he goes to fricking Europe to go give a speech about it. And it's like, oh, nobody likes this. People are saying. And so then, so then it leaves his. He takes it off the front burner, right? He, he, you, I think you, you invest. You are, you are a long term thinker. He is not a long term thinker. Whatever he is immediately stimulated by is the thing that he acts on.

Paul Rieckhoff (52:30)

You know what he is.

Rachel Maddow (52:30)

So Greenland got pushed back, but you.

Paul Rieckhoff (52:32)

Know what he is? He's a rapist. And he's not going to stop trying. Right. He just. Greenland said, no, he's going to try again later. He's going to keep coming. And that's where people underestimate him. It's not the bond market. Whatever it is, he faces friction and then he pulls back. But he's going to try again. Right.

Rachel Maddow (52:48)

And then he'll face one.

Paul Rieckhoff (52:49)

Yeah. And the green.

Rachel Maddow (52:51)

The key is to fight him. The key is to push back.

Paul Rieckhoff (52:53)

Yeah.

Rachel Maddow (52:54)

And he doesn't like, he doesn't like pushback. And it just means the resistance against him annoys him, slows him down, diverts him and he starts doing something else. And so that means, like, that's the key. Thinking about what tools he has to work with and whether or not he's facing pushback tells you everything about how he's gonna, what he's gonna do next.

Paul Rieckhoff (53:12)

That's true. All right, so let me go below the radar with you on something that's related. His many wars have included a war on the media. And I think he's winning. Right. He's got everything from where we started on Twitter that's now X to CBS to npr, to now, the Washington Post. But the Don Lemon piece in particular, I think was really important because it opens up in the same way it's important to attack, you know, Senator Kelly, because you can attack and chill every single military retiree, which are extremely effective against him. And slowing him down. You lock up Don Lemon. Do you think he'll keep coming? Do you think he'll come after other members of the press? Do you worry about him coming after you? Because that feels like the next level is to go after broadcast people. Right? To go. And he's gone after Kimmel, he's gone after Fallon. Do you think he's going to keep coming? And do you think he's gonna come after you and others?

Rachel Maddow (54:06)

Maybe. I mean, I can't control that. He might. I do feel like the. Again, the pushback matters. Right? So, like, what happened with the Jimmy Kimmel thing, right? There wasn't pushback about the, about Stephen Colbert being canceled, even though clearly Stephen Colbert was canceled because his corporate overlords were trying to serve up his head on a platter to Trump in order to serve their own needs. I mean, and then you saw what they did, what they've done with CBS News, turning it into a right wing blog, right? I mean, but the Stephen Colbert thing, they at least messaged around it. So people thought like, oh, maybe this is a fiscal decision, okay? Like, that's too bad, they're firing Stephen Colbert. But people didn't get it and they should have, and they shouldn't fire Stephen Colbert and they should still undo that decision. But they didn't get the immediate pushback. But then when they came for Kimmel, people are like, okay, now we see what this is. No, you can't do it. You can't do it this way. There's a huge pushback. And then they stop. And yes, then they come back later and try to do it again. But people see what it is. It's not as powerful. And there isn't going to be the sort of, they're not going to be able to make the kind of move that they wanted to make because shockingly to them, oh, the country isn't with them. They're high on their own supply. They believe their own propaganda. They think this stuff is good politics. They think that having masked men with semiautomatic long guns but kicking down doors in Minneapolis and dragging brown skinned people out into the street in the middle of winter is amazing politics and is only gonna make Donald Trump more popular. And it turns out not only does the entire city surrounding that stuff turn out against it and think that it's wrong, but the whole country is against it too. They're wrong about the appeal of what they're doing. And they think that these attacks on the media are, they play great, right? They think this is great propaganda. They think this is awesome. And so the quality of the pushback is what it has to not be politically rewarding to them.

Paul Rieckhoff (56:00)

I don't think they care. I mean, I understand your perspective. I don't think they care anymore about popularity. I don't think they care anymore about the polls. I think they are high on their own supply because they do have tremendous power and their power is increasing. I don't think they're slowing down. I mean, ICE is still moving forward. Yeah, we're gonna have this funding fight. They got a massive Pentagon budget. He can bomb any country he wants. And Congress won't say anything. I mean, he's. He's almost entirely unaccountable, except in some levels of friction. But I do think that they don't think that they have to slow down, and nothing's making them slow down. So at the end of the day, they did arrest Don Lemon. They put him in jail. Right? I mean, and I. And I think that, yeah, they let him out, but they did have an effective message to everyone else that, shit, they could come after anybody with a substack. And there are a lot of people, and I'm in rooms a lot where people are toggling their language. They're more careful. Business people, especially, are kind of going, I don't want to get on blast. I don't want. There's a lot of people who are saying, now, I don't want to get Don Lemon. Right? So I am.

Rachel Maddow (57:03)

But authoritarians are going to do what authoritarians are going to do. Like, this is not a surprising tactic. This is what they do. And they're trying to intimidate us all, and they're trying to make us all scared, and they're trying to make us all modulate our, you know, our language or whatever it is. But if you push back, you win. If you fight, you win. If you push these guys back, if you say, if you come for me, I'm coming for you. They say, oh, okay, I'm not gonna come for you.

Paul Rieckhoff (57:26)

I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. And I want to believe that, and I want to encourage that. But you can't tell that to the people in Iran right now.

Rachel Maddow (57:35)

No, but I'm saying there's no. What's the alternative, Right? Like, oh, he's doing a scary thing, therefore, we all have to cower and run. We wish this wasn't true. The only way to fight it is to fight. The only way to fight it is to fight it.

Paul Rieckhoff (57:47)

That is right. But what I am also trying to appeal is that there's still too many people on the sidelines, right? Too much of this is normalized. There aren't enough people who feel directly threatened. And they didn't think that he could do what he's doing with ice. They didn't think he could arrest journalists. They didn't think he'd bomb Venezuela. I mean, they didn't think he'd shoot American civilians in the street and kick indoors with no warrants. He's doing it all. There's no failure of imagination on his side. And I think what we really have to do, especially in this next few weeks, is encourage people to consider the worst of what he could do, because there's nothing stopping him from doing the worst.

Rachel Maddow (58:18)

But I also, you know, don't tell people that standing up to him is pointless.

Paul Rieckhoff (58:21)

Don't tell him. No, I don't say that at all. But get ready for him. But get ready for him to come for you is what I tell everybody. Right?

Rachel Maddow (58:27)

Everybody's. Yes, you gotta take care. You gotta take care of yourself. But I mean, like, again, I can't control whether or not he's gonna do that. And so it's serenity prayer, you know what I mean? Like, prepare. Like, prepare. Make yourself as hard to talk target as possible and keep doing the work and push as hard as you can. Save your country. You know, fight for your country. This is the time to fight for it. And the way you fight for it is disciplined, peaceful, nonviolent, unbelievably sustained, scalable, creative resistance. That's what you do. It's the only thing that ever works, and it almost always does work. And anything that is any. Anything you're telling people that is going to tell them that it's futile to stand up is the. Is the wrong thing to say at this point. And it's just, it's. It's not only demobilizing, it's also untrue. They, they are very responsive to pushback. And so when you, when the, when they're doing something you don't, like, push back.

Paul Rieckhoff (59:21)

Yeah, I don't say it's futile, but I also want to. Want to. Want to ground people in how tough it can be, because it can get a lot harder, it can get a lot tougher. You know, it's not going to be a magic wand where the Democrats just walk in in November, put him in jail, and he walks out. I mean, people had a failure of imagination last time, and that's why he came back. Right. And I think. And I think that now is not the time to be on the sidelines. So I'm with you. And I love the rally cry. You are, you are. You are one to lead people always. And we need to hear that from you and so many others, especially people who are in danger. You're in public, you're in danger. I'm in public, we're in danger. But we also need to encourage other people to get into the fight. All right, let me take you to a joke. Go ahead.

Rachel Maddow (60:00)

Yeah, let me, Let me just add one thing to that, and if there's one like thing that Trump is trying, one new tool that Trump is trying to give himself right now that we have a choice about, is that he's trying to build a network of prison camps, an archipelago of prison camps, as it were, and he's buying up these warehouses all around the country to try to turn them into facilities that hold, you know, five, eight, 10,000 people. If he gets that tool, if we let, after what we've just seen from the first year of this term of Trump in office, if we as a country give him a new tool, which is the ability to create domestic black site prisons that hold 100 plus thousand people at a time without access to the courts, because they're designed for immigrants. And so therefore, immigrants aren't supposed to be able to get to the courts now under this administration. And so they're legal black box sites. This is a fight that's happening now in states all over the country, and there are fights that are happening locally. So, you know, find out if you're within the sound of my voice right now. Find out if in your state, one of these ICE warehouse facilities is being considered. It's private companies that are selling these privately owned warehouse facilities to ice. Those private companies should hear from you, local officials in those places that are going to have to deal with the utility concerns and the moral concerns and all these things about having a Trump prison camp locally. Find out if one is happening in your state and you can do something about it. And people are doing stuff about it even in red states all over the country.

Paul Rieckhoff (61:37)

Hear, hear. It's very important. And I also just want to put out there, Greenland might be an interesting site for a black site if you have sovereign territory. And part of what he still wants in Greenland is sovereign territory. That's what he doesn't have. Because if he has sovereign territory, he's not bound by their rules. If he has sovereign territory, it's Guantanamo. Right. And that is a part of their calculation, I believe, is to expand the places where they can do dirty shit. And we need to push back on all of them. And that's part of the expansion in the Western Hemisphere. But I think you're right to focus people on that. And your podcast also gives them a history lesson on it. So they need to go back and check that out as well. All right, let's shift to something a whole lot more fun. I know I got to let you go soon, but we can't miss you, have you and not do Friday football Super bowl edition.

Rachel Maddow (62:21)

You. Yay.

Paul Rieckhoff (62:27)

You are here. Friday football, super bowl edition. You're the best person to have for this because you're like the real Patriot fan, right? Yeah.

Rachel Maddow (62:35)

You.

Paul Rieckhoff (62:35)

You are a Patriot fan. Bigger than almost anybody I know. I told you, I love this team. I love Vrabel, but I can't pick against these Seahawks. I just think they're too good. So I'm going to make my pick and then I'm going to throw it over to you. All right. I have saved it. The Seahawks are for real. I was wrong about Sam Darnold. I saw the New York version of Sam Darnold. He came back better and stronger. The Seahawks defense is legit. They have a culture out there that's so special. Their defensive end, DeMarcus Lawrence, who wears number zero, which is cool, is a monster. I grew up watching Steve Largent and Sean Alexander and Brian Bosworth and Cortez Kennedy. I'm going with The Seahawks, people. 31, 27. In part because I can't in good faith pick the Patriots. Rachel. I'm sorry. I'm going Seahawks. I'm going Seahawks, 31, 27.

Rachel Maddow (63:27)

You think it's going to be that high scoring a game?

Paul Rieckhoff (63:29)

I do. I do. Because it's still a big play league and the low scoring games, they both have great defenses, but this is. There's this. This is like seal cracking that happens when the weather's good. Unless the weather's bad. Like the scoring.

Rachel Maddow (63:43)

California. It's going to be good.

Paul Rieckhoff (63:44)

Yeah. I mean, they're in San Francisco. They're in your home area. San Francisco.

Rachel Maddow (63:47)

Yeah. So I love the Patriots. I absolutely love the Patriots. And I'm desperately hoping that we win this game. And I am pretty convinced we are going to get splattered.

Paul Rieckhoff (64:01)

I was going to pick a much, much bigger spread. I was going to say 31 17.

Rachel Maddow (64:07)

I mean, we'll see. I mean, part of what I think that you're right that both teams have really good defenses. And the Patriots defense in the postseason has been. Has been great. Has been really good. And I believe that defense wins championships. Absolutely. But defense versus defense are great defense against the Seahawks, great defense. I think Seahawks defense is a little better. And our quarterback and our offense, we're not just a, you know, it's not just a one weapon offense. But Drake May got like got on the wrong bus after the regular season and hasn't been seen since. I mean, he just hasn't been here for the postseason. And I believe that May is capable of great things. But I also believe that he's not, he's really young and he has not shown up at big, high pressure games, postseason games this year. It may be that he does show up at the super bowl. And all of a sudden the offense kicks on and we see all those great, you know, wide receivers and tight ends and running backs do what they can do because they can perform magic when they want to and when their quarterback is on fire, and especially when he's, you know, when he's bamboozling defenses by making himself as much of a weapon as all of our other guys. So if Drake may shows up, that might be enough to over to make it close. But I think we're going to lose.

Paul Rieckhoff (65:35)

So you're picking against your Patriots.

Rachel Maddow (65:37)

I'm. I, if I was, I'm not a betting person because I'm too neurotic. If I was betting, I would bet money on the Patriots just as a prayer for their win. But if you're asking me if I think we are going to win, I do not think we are going to win.

Paul Rieckhoff (65:50)

Well, def. I think defense used to win championships and I've said a lot, especially this year, that it's not the quarterback who makes the big play, it's the quarterback who makes the big screw up. And I think that, like, it's often the young quarterback who makes a couple of bad throws. And when the defenses are that good, the margin of error is so little. I love Drake, May, I really do. But like, Sam Darnold now looks like the experienced vet and he is. Right. So, yeah, I'm going with, with Sam Darnold. I never thought I'd say that.

Rachel Maddow (66:14)

But what do you think explains his, like, late bloom? I mean, it's not late. It's not like he's old. But, like, why is he so much better now than he was before?

Paul Rieckhoff (66:22)

I mean, this is what he was supposed to be when they drafted him in the first round for the Jets. I mean, like, he was, he was supposed to be this. And I do think a lot of it has to do with the team around you, with the culture. I mean, Seattle has a really strong culture. They've had good coaching. He's had, you know, they've had good quarterbacks. I mean, he was, he started out with the Jets. I mean, the jets are the biggest disaster this side of the Democrats. I mean, they are, they are terrible. And I do think culture matters. Coaching matters. And he's experienced now. He's learned a lot. He's put in the work. I mean, Stafford's another great example. I Mean, the dude got the MVP last night. He deserves it. But I'm rooting for a guy who's showing everybody that he can come back. And that's the other reason to root for Darnold, I think.

Rachel Maddow (67:03)

Yeah. I mean, I gotta say that. Just, like, conceptually, people turning out, people seeming like they're not all that, and then revealing themselves through hard work and good environment and I guess, felicitous circumstance to actually be capable of greatness. That's a great thing. Like, you know, you're slagging the Democrats. I think you should slag the Republicans as well. But also, they. They've been.

Paul Rieckhoff (67:31)

They.

Rachel Maddow (67:31)

Yeah, you've been terrible. Yeah, you haven't shown me much, but I know that you're capable of greatness. Even late in your career, I know you are capable of greatness. And I feel like I am. I'm. I've been the first one to, you know, talk down Congress in an. In a. In a nonpartisan way. I talk down Congress in terms of Congress critters just being useless for most of my adult life. But I do actually think that Congress is coming a little bit alive right now in a way that ought to be not dismissed and ought to be encouraged, because if they stand up, that might save the republic. And I believe that people are never beyond grace. And that's true in politics. That's true in quarterbacks.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:09)

All right, so you won't make a bet like last time? I want you. Last time we bet, it was your team against mine. The loser had to wear a jersey on television.

Rachel Maddow (68:17)

I don't think that you should wear a Giants jersey. Jersey right now until this. This. This Epstein thing was signed.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:23)

I will tell you this. I'll put you. I'll put this out. If. If I'll make the wager, I will wear a Patriots jersey, and you can pick whose jersey. If. If.

Rachel Maddow (68:31)

If.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:31)

If. If they. And I'll put it. I'll put my. I'll put it online. I'm picking the Seahawks. But if the Seahawks win, then you gotta wear a sea. I won't make you wear a Giants jersey. You gotta wear a Seahawks.

Rachel Maddow (68:41)

Me. Okay. That's a deal.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:42)

You did?

Rachel Maddow (68:43)

Absolutely. I've got Patri. I've got a Patriots jersey for you. You got to get me a Seahawks jersey. If they. If.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:48)

Yeah.

Rachel Maddow (68:48)

Okay. All right, good.

Paul Rieckhoff (68:49)

That could be fun. That could be fun. All right. Last thing I want to do. We do this on every show. We want to end with something good. That was really something good. But I want to shout out One thing, and then I'm going to throw it over to you. The Olympics start today and there's going to be a lot of amazing patriots in a different kind of way that are going to step out and speak out and make us proud. And I want to shout out Chloe Kim, two time Olympic gold medalist snowboarding monster. She's amazing. She's starting her third Winter Olympics. And yesterday she posted her passport when she was a little kid, her little face. And she said, I can't believe I arrived in Milan to represent my country at the Olympic Games for the third time. If you told me that, she wouldn't believe you. This one feels especially meaningful for so many reasons. Reasons. And this is really important. My parents left South Korea in search of a better future for their family. They left behind everything they knew so my sisters and I could have a chance one day to live the American dream. Their sacrifice is one I will never take for granted. So when I stand on top of the halfpipe, competing on the biggest stage in sport, I do so with immense pride. I am representing my country, but I am also representing those who took a leap of faith, who came to this beautiful nation carrying hopes, dreams and courage. I am proud of my heritage. I am proud of my journey. And I'm proud to represent a country that is still strongest when it embraces diversity, dignity and hope. Go Team usa.

Rachel Maddow (70:11)

That's fantastic. That's so good.

Paul Rieckhoff (70:13)

That's my something good.

Rachel Maddow (70:14)

Wow.

Paul Rieckhoff (70:15)

Over to you, Rachel. Give us anything. That's something good.

Rachel Maddow (70:19)

I got something good to look out for. That's coming out on Peacock. My writing partner for all my podcasts is Mike Jarvitz. Do you remember Jarvitz from the Rachel Mattis Show? Back in the day he was at msnbc. Back in the day he was on the show and then he went moved to California to go do do to live a whole different life. And I, after a few years apart, got back together with him to start doing podcasts with him. So Bagman and Ultra and Burn Order, the new podcast and everything, That's Mike Jarvitz and I together. And he's just like my creative partner and that kind of stuff. And I really just, I respect him so much and think the world of him. He has a new documentary miniseries coming out on Peacock on Black Quarterbacks.

Paul Rieckhoff (71:01)

Oh, I heard about this.

Rachel Maddow (71:02)

Yes, that's Mike Jarvitz. Oh, yes. And it's really freaking good. The trailer just came out. I'll send you the link to the trailer so you can post it with this. But it's coming out just in time. Linked with the Super Bowl. Maria Taylor's executive producer on it. But he's been working. It's been like he's been working on it forever and ever and ever. And I know how hard it's been. But they've got everybody in terms of interviews and stuff, and it's so edgy and it's so good, and I'm really proud of Mike, and I'm excited to see it. And that comes out soon, so I'll send you the trailer. I'm really excited for it.

Paul Rieckhoff (71:36)

Amazing. That is something good. We will link to it in the show notes. And you are something good and something great. You are an incredible voice for our democracy. You give so many people so much hope. We say hope is the oxygen of democracy in this interview. But also, every time you're on the air and everything you do, you also. I will never not say this. You set a great example for our kids and for the next generation. And I think you are one of the most important voices of our time. We don't always agree. Plenty of people may disagree with you on things, but I also think it's so important the way you do things and how you do with honor and respect and integrity and teaching. You're always teaching us. Your new podcast does that. You are always the great Dr. Rachel Maddow in my house. But we're so grateful for all that you do, and I'm grateful for always you spending so much time with me now.

Rachel Maddow (72:23)

Well, let me know when you want me to take your boys ice fishing, because I will do it. I will teach them. I will get over my squeamishness about shiners and worms and maggots, and I will take them out there and I will catch them some pan fish, and they'll have a great time.

Paul Rieckhoff (72:35)

I'm sending them up on the Vermonter tomorrow. All right. They're going to have Chiefs and Jets jerseys, though. But get this. My big guy's a Jets fan.

Rachel Maddow (72:44)

A Jets fan. Is he a masochist at that age?

Paul Rieckhoff (72:48)

That's going to toughen him up.

Rachel Maddow (72:49)

Up.

Paul Rieckhoff (72:50)

It's going to toughen him up.

Rachel Maddow (72:51)

Who is that? Doesn't even. That doesn't even compute. Like, it's like. It's like you telling me that he's into, like, juggling chainsaws or something. Like, come on, kid, there's got to be some reward here.

Paul Rieckhoff (73:03)

Yeah. Yeah, but I. It's a testament to his tenacity. That's the way I look at it.

Rachel Maddow (73:07)

And that's all we need right now. I love you, Paul. It's great to see him.

Paul Rieckhoff (73:10)

I love you too, Rachel. All the best. Enjoy the Super Bowl. All right. I am always grateful for the time and insight and experience of the great Rachel Maddow. Check out her latest podcast, which is extraordinary. Check out all her podcasts because you will learn a lot. And especially for the folks who maybe disagree with Rachel politically, I do sometimes check out her work. Go check out her podcast. You will learn something. And if only understand that she is a leader who I think always carries herself with tremendous respect and integrity and honesty. And she's a damn good person. I know that personally. And that's something that folks who don't know her personally may not know. But you saw that today. If you like this conversation, this one, especially if you're new here, you're a Rachel Maddow fan, welcome. If you're a Jesse Ventura fan, welcome. If you're a Chuck Todd fan, welcome. If you're a Kaivon Schroff fan, welcome. We had a big week. It was like a Super bowl week. And next week we're going to continue the momentum. As I mentioned, Senator Ruben Gallego, the senator of Arizona, also an Iraq War vet and a Marine, will be here. Our old friend Anya Kamenenitz will be back to talk about how ice and these times are impacting and hurting our kids. If there's a kid in your life, if you care about kids, you're going to want to check that out because we are daily now and we will be back on Monday with all new episodes. I might drop you a special one over the weekend, so look out for that. Be sure to subscribe, especially if you're new here. Right now, hit that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and especially on YouTube. If you want to look inside Rachel's masterful headquarters in Massachusetts, go to YouTube and check that out and spread the word. Help us continue to grow this show and grow this movement and spread some positivity, some insight and some information. Because America is divided. Even on Super Bowl Sunday, we're divided. But here at Independent Americans, we're working to change that, adding light to contrast the heat of all the other political shows. Don't let them divide you folks. Let's try to bring ourselves together, especially around something like the Super Bowl. If you're among the now 45% of Americans who are independent or the many folks who are independent, curious or just righteously engaged by this conversation and what's happening, this is your show, our independent movement is the hope for the future like a long ball from Matthew Stafford. Country over party, people over politics, light over heat, challenging the status quo and fueling a new movement. And that movement is growing. It's growing every day. You see it and you feel it. It's facing opposition, but we are still growing. Because hope, hope that you got in this show, and I hope you got all week long from this show, is the oxygen of democracy. Just like Patriots fans and Seahawks fans, both have tremendous hope right now. And I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did share it far and wide. Invite others, especially now, to declare their independence and stay vigilant, my friends, because eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. And now you're not alone in your vigilance. We're all vigilant. We're all in this together, especially on Super Bowl Sunday. It might be one of the most unifying moments on our calendar in America every year. So let's make the most of it. I'm your host, Paul Rykoff. Thank you for tuning into Independent Americans. Enjoy the super bowl and stay vigilant, America. Stay Vigilant tells me the left and.

Rachel Maddow (76:19)

Right are dreams for those without a.

Paul Rieckhoff (76:21)

Clue and when you wait it's time to grow and it's not cool to.

Rachel Maddow (76:27)

Believe in school but if I can say one thing I've seen the children.

Paul Rieckhoff (76:30)

Of the revolution and the good trouble.

Rachel Maddow (76:32)

They can bring he says the red and blue are dead and independent is an attitude an island in the sea of rhetoric and acrobatic oh, he tells me the left and right Our dreams for those without a clue and when.

Paul Rieckhoff (76:46)

You wait it's time to grow Powered by righteous media.