Trump Has Become the Establishment Trump Takes On the Indiana Primaries, Thomas Massie and Mark Kelly

Summary

---

Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff

Episode Title: Trump Has Become the Establishment: Trump Takes On the Indiana Primaries, Thomas Massie and Mark Kelly
Air Date: May 11, 2026
Host: Paul Rieckhoff

---

Episode Overview

This episode examines the shifting dynamics within the Republican Party as Donald Trump increasingly assumes the role of the political establishment. Paul Rieckhoff and a panel of analysts and correspondents dissect the Indiana Republican primaries, broader intra-party battles, and the growing influence of independent and libertarian voters. The episode also delves into Trump’s conflict with Congressman Thomas Massie, the prospective future of the party, and a high-profile case involving Senator Mark Kelly and the limits of free speech for veterans and retired military members.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Indiana GOP Primaries: The Establishment vs. The Revolt

• Indiana in Focus: The state’s primaries act as a battleground for the future of the Republican Party, with Trump actively targeting long-standing GOP incumbents.
• Party Divide: The battle is framed as moderates versus Trumpists, paralleling similar tensions within the Democratic Party.

“[The GOP] is going to be a war between the moderates and the Trumpists. And now you’ve got essentially Trump fighting Mike Pence in a state that they should have a lock on. But now they’re eating their own. They’re fighting amongst themselves.” — Political Analyst (01:56)

• Significance of Independents: While over 40% of Hoosiers identify as independents, the closed primary system excludes them from the pivotal decision-making process.
• Voter Sentiment: Some Indiana Republicans now view Trump as “the establishment,” resenting D.C.’s interference regardless of party affiliation.

“Some of the voters I talked to felt that Trump in some ways has become the establishment over the last two years or so… They don’t like Washington putting its thumb on the scale here in Indiana.” — Adam (03:29)

Thomas Massie vs. Trump: A Test of Republican Tolerance

• Trump’s All-Out Attack: Trump has made defeating Congressman Massie a personal crusade, particularly after Massie opposed him publicly (notably on the Epstein files).

“Trump has tried to eviscerate this guy… I mean, just listen to things he said because Massie took him on, on the Epstein files. Here’s Trump: ‘You have a, you know, guy like this loser Massie. He's a real loser…’” — Aaron quoting Trump (04:44)

• Massie’s Stance: Known for anti-deficit, anti-war, and pro-transparency positions, Massie represents a faction within the GOP increasingly at odds with Trump’s agenda.

“Massie is also going to say no deficit. He’s going to say no Iran war. He’s going to say no more forever wars. And he’s going to say Epstein a lot.” — Political Analyst (05:09)

• Third-Party Potential: The panel speculates whether figures like Massie could carve out a space in a new political movement if squeezed out by Trump’s party machine.

Senator Mark Kelly & The Right to Free Speech for Military Figures

• Case Details: Senator and Navy combat veteran Mark Kelly appeared in a “do not follow illegal orders” video, prompting a challenge seeking to demote him — a case considered by the appeals court.
• Free Speech Implications: Rieckhoff frames the campaign against Kelly as an attack on veterans’ and military retirees’ right to free speech.

“This is a direct attack on free speech for all Americans, for all veterans and for all military retirees… He’s also a decorated Navy combat veteran. He’s an astronaut. He’s also a member of the Armed Services Committee. And right now this attack is really about whether or not he has the right to free speech that he fought and other people have died to defend.” — Paul Rieckhoff (07:08)

• Chilling Effect: There are growing concerns about intimidation and the chilling of political expression among both retired and active service members.

“The intent is to chill their speech, to intimidate the members of the Senate and to intimidate all Americans. So anybody who’s ever been in the military and is retired is now thinking about maybe something they posted on Facebook or a video they might have sent out. And that’s the impact. They want to shut people up.” — Paul Rieckhoff (07:53)

• Military Ethics: The basic training of all service members reinforces that following illegal orders is forbidden; critics paint the prosecution of Kelly as political overreach.

“Everybody knows not to follow illegal orders. It is so basic. They teach it in basic training at West Point, at all the academies.” — Paul Rieckhoff (08:50)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the GOP’s Identity Crisis:
  “This is the first battle in the war for the future of the Republican Party.” — Political Analyst (01:56)

• On Trump as Establishment:
  “For years, they voted against whoever they felt in Washington was the establishment… Trump in some ways has become the establishment.” — Adam (03:29)

• On Mark Kelly’s Case:
  “This is a direct attack on free speech for all Americans, for all veterans and for all military retirees.” — Paul Rieckhoff (07:08)

• On Protecting Service Members' Voices:
  “The intent is to chill their speech, to intimidate the members of the Senate and to intimidate all Americans.” — Paul Rieckhoff (07:53)

• On Universal Military Teachings:
  “Everybody knows not to follow illegal orders… Their video was almost redundantly obvious. I mean, everyone knows that already.” — Paul Rieckhoff (08:50)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• GOP Divide and Indiana Primaries: 01:17 – 02:44
• Exclusion of Independents: 02:44 – 03:29
• Voter Reactions, Trump as Establishment: 03:29 – 04:22
• Trump vs. Massie: 04:22 – 05:51
• Speculation on Third Parties: 05:09 – 05:51
• Mark Kelly Legal Battle & Free Speech: 05:56 – 08:50

---

Additional Commentary

The episode ends with a poet or spoken word artist (09:38–10:12) reflecting on what it means to be an independent in a hyper-partisan landscape, reinforcing the podcast's message that “an independent is an attitude, an island in a sea of rhetoric.” This artistic touch underscores the central theme of forging a path beyond traditional party lines.

---

Summary:
This episode of Independent Americans provides a nuanced, on-the-ground look at how Trump’s ongoing quest to dominate the GOP is fueling internal splits and sparking resistance, even from his own supporters. It also features an incisive discussion on free speech in the military, using the Mark Kelly case to spotlight the broader risks that politicization poses to veterans’ rights and America’s democratic norms. Rieckhoff and his guests maintain a spirited, independent tone, demanding accountability and bipartisan cooperation in a time of intensifying division.

---

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years. With the Name youe Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy, or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law

[Paul Rykoff]

I think it's ridiculous. I think it's unacceptable. I think it's un American and it's an over politicization of what should be an area of compromise. We should be working together with the member of the Armed Services Committee and Hegseth and Trump should be focused on our enemies in Iran instead of members of Congress that should be on their side and working together.

[Aaron]

Again, Paul, that we, that we have because now we've got all polls closed, as I said, two time zones in Indiana, so some of them closed at 6:00 Eastern. We've got more counted than the ones that just closed here just within the past 10 minutes. Excuse me. We'll see if we're able to make any calls. The four that you're looking at here, there are seven total right now. You have one of them with very little of the vote in. You do have the, the, the incumbent ahead in three of the others. The Trump challenger is ahead. Extremely tight though in one of those. And again, there's so few in that it's very hard to know if this is actually indicative of which way this is going to go.

[Political Analyst]

Here's what we know. This is the first battle in the war for the future of the Republican Party. This is a party struggling to define itself. It's going to be a war between the moderates and the Trumpists. And now you've got essentially Trump fighting Mike Pence in a state that they should have a lock on. But now they're eating their own. They're fighting amongst themselves. And I think it's reflective of what we may see before, during and after the midterms, especially and definitely, as we go toward 2028, where the Republicans have to figure out, are they going to be Donald Trump or are they gonna be Mike Pence, or are they gonna break in half? And I think you're gonna see a similar fight in the Democratic Party. You're gonna have the aoc, you know, Democratic Socialists against the more moderate national security centrists. And there's gonna be a war between both parties. And here's what's interesting about Indiana. Over 40% are independent. Right. And they're not even in this discussion.

[Paul Rykoff]

Right.

[Political Analyst]

You got closed primaries. Most of the folks in the state aren't participating. And that's where the real action is. That's gonna be where the action is for the midterms, and that's definitely where the action's gonna be for the presidential when we get to 2020.

[Aaron]

Fascinating. When you say, Adam, you know, back on the ground, I know you went door to door with some of the Republicans that Trump had targeted.

[Adam]

How.

[Aaron]

What did voters say, you know, when they approached them and brought this up and it, you know, introduced these Republican voters. How did the voters feel about the situation? Right. The Trump wanted revenge against these individuals and these, by the way, these people that are there, most of them have been elected again and again and again by Indiana Republican voters. They're not unknown to Indiana Republicans.

[Adam]

Yeah, Aaron, a lot of the voters that I talk to are anti establishment. And, you know, for years, they voted against whoever they felt in Washington was the establishment. Some of the voters I talked to felt that Trump in some ways has become the establishment over the last two years or so in his return to Washington. And so they don't like Washington putting its thumb on the scale here in Indiana, no matter whether it's a Democrat in the Oval Office or whether it's a Republican. There's a strain not just of independence, but of libertarians. This is a very libertarian state. Ron Swanson, who was famously caricatured on the NBC show Parks and Rec, is sort of a good representation of that. Someone who doesn't like federal government spending, doesn't like to be taxed, doesn't like to be regulated, and, you know, that's a key feature. Kind of a lot of the Republican voters who I talked to as I went door to door, this is.

[Aaron]

It's really incredible that Trump has become the establishment. And when you talk about tests, you're saying, this is just the start, Paul. Okay, take a look. In two weeks, you've got Thomas Massie. Okay? Now this is Trump, Trump. Trump has Tried to eviscerate this guy, literally, probably to eviscerate him. Trump has done everything he can. I mean, just listen to things he said because Massey took him on, on the Epstein files. Here's Trump.

[Donald Trump]

You have a, you know, guy like this loser Massie. He's a real loser. Massey's a complete and total disaster. As a congressman and frankly, as a human being, we have guys like Tom Massie in Congress is terrible. He's just terrible, terrible person.

[Aaron]

Trump has put an extraordinary amount of political capital into defeating Massey. That is going to be something to watch. I mean, if Massey prevails, he has

[Political Analyst]

to, because again, it's a fight for the soul of the Republican Party. And Massie is also going to say no deficit. He's going to say no Iran war. He's going to say no more forever wars. And he's going to say Epstein a lot. And the question becomes, does Massie have a place in the Republican Party? And if he doesn't, is there another lane? Is there a third party? Is there an independent Lane? Massey's also the guy working with Ro Khanna across the line on many issues. And I've posed this question to Ro Khanna on my show a couple weeks ago. Will you leave the Democratic Party? I think there's this moment where you could see someone like Don Bacon, the Republican moderate in Nebraska. You see Massie, they will either become the future of the Republican Party or they might be driven out of the Republican Party either into something new or into an independent, unaffiliated space which is wide open for whoever gets their.

[Aaron]

It is really incredible.

[Host]

It appears Senator Mark Kelly may avoid punishment for that do not follow illegal orders video that he appeared in with other members of Congress. An appeals court today heard arguments and seemed very skeptical about hegseth's effort to try and demote Kelly.

[Military Expert]

These are people who serve their country. Many of them put their lives on the line, and you're saying that they have to give up their retired status in order to say something. That is a textbook example, taught at West Point and the Naval Academy, that you can disobey illegal orders.

[Host]

I want to bring in Iraq war veteran and founder and CEO of the Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff. Thank you for joining. I appeared before Judge Pan many times. It seems very clear where she seems to be heading in her ruling, but the appeals court in general, likely to rule in Senator Kelly's favor, but he thinks that the case may actually go to the Supreme Court. Do you have any concerns about the national precedent that could be set here or even the chilling effect that this process might cause?

[Paul Rykoff]

Absolutely. I think that's already happened. I mean, this is in a direct. This is a direct attack on free speech for all Americans, for all veterans and for all military retirees. He's one of 2 million military retirees. He's also a decorated Navy combat veteran. He's an astronaut. He's also a member of the Armed Services Committee. And right now this attack is really about whether or not he has the right to free speech that he fought and other people have died to defend. So I think it's ridiculous. I think it's unacceptable. I think it's un American and it's an over politicization of what should be an area of compromise. We should be working together with a member of the Armed Services Committee, and Hegseth and Trump should be focused on our enemies in Iran instead of members of Congress that should be on their side and working together.

[Host]

What's the impact on current service members? They must be following this to some extent.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah. I mean, the message is if you speak out, you could be punished. They could come for your retirement, they could come for your rank. They could identify you and name you, which has also got a chilling effect. They could intimidate you. I mean, there's all kinds of hate and attacks that are coming at Senator Kelly and his family. His wife is also a hero. I mean, right. Everybody knows Gabby Giffords and what she's gone through. So their entire family is in the crosshairs here. And that's the intent. The intent is to chill their speech, to intimidate the members of the Senate and to intimidate all Americans. So anybody who's ever been in the military and is retired is now thinking about maybe something they posted on Facebook or a video they might have sent out. And that's the impact. They want to shut people up. And not just the retirees, but also active duty military. And I think that is having an

[Host]

impact on active duty in particular, who don't likely speak out publicly when they have this agreement with their superior officers. Does it somehow suggest that they might be compelled or feel compelled to follow orders that they believe are illegal?

[Paul Rykoff]

If this is the consequence, everybody knows not to follow illegal orders. It is so basic. They teach it in basic training at West Point, at all the academies. I mean, their video was. Was almost redundantly obvious. I mean, everyone knows that already. I think it was entirely the video, if anything was unnecessary. So I think everybody understands the rules. What they understand now is that Hegseth and Trump are breaking the rules. They're really dragging free speech into the discourse in a way that is, that is chilling. And it's the stuff you see in North Korea. I mean, it's not what we see here in America. And we have to remember the war is unpopular. It's also unpopular among veterans and it's probably unpopular among the troops. If we could poll them. This is another way of trying to keeping them, keep them in line for a war that is unauthorized and increasingly unpopular by the day.

[Host]

Paul Ryclauf, thank you so much.

[Paul Rykoff]

You're welcome.

[Poet or Spoken Word Artist]

He tells me the left and right are dreams for those without a clue and when you wait it's time to grow and it's not cool to believe in school but if I can say one thing I've seen the children of the revolution and the good trouble they can bring he says the red and

blue I get an independent is an

attitude an island in the sea of

rhetoric and right Our dreams for those

without a clue and when you wait, it's time to grow Power by Righteous

[Paul Rykoff]

Media

[Public Safety Announcer]

I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years. With the Name youe Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the Name your Price Tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law

[Podcast Host]

if you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow thank you for listening.