← Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff
Independent Americans with Paul Rieckhoff
“War Is Chaotic — and We Went In Without a Strategy'" with General Mark Hertling.
00:42:46
War is chaotic and complex. You really never know which way it's going to go — and you especially don't know if you go in without a strategy. That's the line General Mark Hertling keeps coming back to in this no-BS conversation with Paul Rieckhoff, recorded as the Trump administration careens deeper into a war with Iran that Congress never authorized and the American people never signed off on. Hertling — former commanding general of US Army Europe, 36 months in combat, and author of the new book If I Don't Return: A Father's Wartime Journal — lays out exactly why this moment feels more like Vietnam than anything we've seen in a generation, and why the silence from both parties is its own kind of sucking chest wound.
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- [00:00]
General Mark Hertling
So I know I'm going on about this, but war is chaotic and complex and you really never know which way it's going to go. And you especially don't know which way it's going to go if you go in without a strategy.
- [00:31]
Paul Rykoff
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Independent Americans. I am your host, Paul Rykoff. Summer is here and I am trying to soak it in. It's been a hard couple of months for all of us and for the show and for me, quite frankly. And I need a break. Take vacation or you get stupid. That's one of my great mentors. One of my great mentors, Les Gelb always told me. So I'm doing that. I take a couple days off here at the beach with the kids towns of the Jersey Shore. So as we go into a big week ahead of July 4th, I'm going to play some special replayed episodes. My favorite conversations. Over the past six years or so, we've been doing this show as we lead into Independence Day or Independence Day. It's going to be a, big America 250, but take a break when you can. And if you're on the road or you're pulling a late shift, I hope that these episodes bring you back to some of my favorite conversations that we've ever had on this show. So happy Summer. Here they are, special conversations as we get ready for a big July 4th. Thanks for tuning in to independent Americans. Keep subscribing, leave us four stars and spread the word, especially as we go into what could be one of the most important summers of our lifetime. But make the most of it every single day and stay vigilant. Goodbye from the beach. All right, independent Americans around the country and around the world in this trying time, this ferocious week, March madness of all kinds is in full swing. I'm going to continue to bring you guests who can help us make sense of it, who can help guide us through it, not just strategically and politically, but also morally and in ways that I think really cut to the heart of what culture is feeling and society is feeling. We have a returning champion. He has spent more than four decades in the Army. He was commanding general of U.S. army Europe, where he led over 40,000 soldiers. He commanded training organizations at NTC and Fort Irwin, the Joint Multinational Training center in Grafenburg, Germany. He was the assistant division commander in Baghdad. From 03 to 04, he commanded the Army's 1st Armored Division in Germany and in northern Iraq. During the surge, he spent over 36 months in combat. You know him from his cable news appearances which thankfully have been plentiful in the last few weeks because he's got a new book that everybody's talking about called if I Don't A Father's Wartime Journal that is available everywhere. You should pick it up. He is now also on the team at Bulwark, which is really exciting to see another veteran in a really key independent media position. But finally joining us back on Independent Americans, the great and powerful General Mark Hertling is back on the show. Welcome back, sir.
- [03:18]
General Mark Hertling
Hey, Paul, how are you doing? It's good to be back with you again for, I don't know, my 47th time on the, on, on your show. It's great. Thank you. I don't know how many times we've been together, but it's been fun.
- [03:29]
Paul Rykoff
Well, we knew you in the podcast world before everybody else. Like before you went over and hooked up with the Bulwark guys and were everywhere because you guys have been on fire. I'm glad that we've had these conversations over the years. I'm also glad you're kind of a free agent, can go everywhere now.
- [03:45]
General Mark Hertling
Well, yeah, and that's, that's been fun too. And by the way, let me talk about the Bulwark if I can for just a second because you mentioned it. It's fascinating because, you know, they didn't have a military guy and we're doing a whole lot of military operations and Sam Stein reached out to me and Sarah Longwell did and said, hey, what would you like? How would you like to come on? And it was, you know, write a couple articles a month and talk to us a few times a year, you know, on a podcast. And man, I gotta tell you, it has been, it has had the potential of really delivering information about the military that most cable and podcast channels don't do other than you and a few others. So it is my desire and my goal to continue to talk about what the military does and what it is to most Americans who don't understand that.
- [04:35]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah, it's really important too, because you can in that form, you can talk more. Right? I mean, you and I have been on MSNBC and CNN for decades and you can't get into a four minute segment, but you could pull it apart. And some of your conversations with the Bulwark team have been, have been great and it's also, I think, helping you reach a much younger and more Internet connected demographic than just cable news. So I was excited to see it. I think it was a smart pickup for them and great to have you out there. But it also underscores how few veterans are in seats in media. Right. I mean, I mentioned this on my show. I mean, Pete Hegseth had the biggest seat for a long time, but when he's challenging folks, some of the folks in the press corps are veterans, but not as many as were after Vietnam. In times like that, we don't have Joey Galloway's out there and Colonel Hackworth like we used to.
- [05:20]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, you need somebody to say, hey, here's the real deal. And what you're talking about is just bullshit. I mean, you know, and. And you try and say it in a polite way, but you've got to do that, you know?
- [05:32]
Paul Rykoff
Yep. Candor is love. Right. So let me ask you. So you've been. You've been barnstorming on this book. Obviously, it's all war all the time now, but where are you? Where are you in the world and how are you in the midst of all this chaos?
- [05:46]
General Mark Hertling
We are in Florida. This is where we retired when I started working for a healthcare organization back in 2013. Here is the book, if you're interested, if you can see that for your fans. Yeah, I have been barnstorming. I get to go to Indiana this week, go to iu, the National Football champions, because that's where I went to grad school before I taught at West Point. And I not only do a couple of book signings out there in Bloomington, but I also get to speak at the ROTC ball on Friday night, which I'm really looking forward to getting in with a bunch of youngsters and showing them the real deal about how you have to act at a ball when you go to a military ball and take your jacket off and have your funny shirt underneath and that kind of stuff. But, yeah, having a good time, Paul, to be honest with you. But unfortunately, we're facing chaos and dysfunction in what our military is being asked to do. They're doing a great job from a tactical perspective, but they're not reaching into any kind of strategic element in how they finish this thing off. And that's problematic in my view right now.
- [06:51]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah, I want to go deeper on that, on Iran, even on the deployment of ICE now at the airports and all of the tentacles that this thing has. But I want to ask you a question that I get asked a lot. I mean, you are talking to ROTC kids. You're doing a lot of public speaking. You mentor a lot of young people. This is a trying time for people who joined to go to the academies before this kicked off and families are very concerned. I don't know if there's a reference point for a war that's less popular. So we're careening into Vietnam territory here where people are really going to be pulled apart and shoved into the politics. And I said it on Colbert. I mean, you know, first you should commit the country, then commit the troops. Every time you get it backward, we get into trouble. We're in one of those places where the troops are committed and the country's not behind this. Can you talk about just what you're seeing among young people who are in ocs, who are at rotc, who haven't hit the lines yet, and people who are thinking about joining who are probably now saying, I don't want to go to Iran.
- [07:54]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah. It's interesting, Paul, because I, I was at West Point for the class of 25's graduation because as an old guy, that's what we call an affiliate class. I'm class of 75 from West Point. They're class of 25, so they bring back the 50 year anniversary classes to kind of mentor these guys. And I was with a group of cadets up there right before graduation and they asked me, where do you think we'll end up fighting? And I went, hey, I can't tell you, you know, because my experience is when I entered West Point, we were still in Vietnam before we graduated. They said, no more, we're going to Vietnam. Then we did the Cold War, Then we did, you know, Panama and Grenada and Haiti and, and Iraq and, you know, Kosovo and all these other places. So I told them, I said, be prepared for anything. You know, I was a tanker and yet, you know, always riding in tanks during Desert storm. But in OIF1 and OIF7, you know, I was carrying around a M4 rifle, you know, so you, you don't know. You just have to prepare for everything on behalf of serving the nation. And that's the message I'm giving the youngins that I talk to.
- [09:03]
Paul Rykoff
Can I ask you, let's, let's go into the top topic, which is really everything overflowing around Iran, right. And the stress it's putting on our force, on our alliances, on, on the homeland. This, I keep saying, you know, there line where if you knock over the hornet's nest, the hornets decide when it's over. And now I think Trump would like to think he has control of what's happening, but it seems to be going in so many different directions. I want to ask you a question that I think is the most Important question, especially because you sit in this landscape with politics. I think the most important story in the world is that Trump can do anything he wants with the most powerful military the world has ever seen, and nothing is stopping him. It's not just Iran, it's, it's potentially Colombia, it's Cuba, it could be Greenland, it could be any other number of countries. We know he's hit over, you know, eight and counting, and nothing's stopping him. It feels like this $200 billion proposal that now they want more appropriations from the Pentagon might be a spot where someone actually slows him down or stops him. General Kaine is maybe our circuit breaker. I don't know. But what do you think is, what are the levers that can stop him from just doing more of the same, of putting boots on the ground, of hitting Cuba, hitting more countries and just keeping going? Because the Democrats and Republicans aren't even slowing them down.
- [10:20]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, you know, I think we got to include the military in that conversation. Not just General Kane, but everybody else. I'll tell you, Paul, I mean, it's, it's Monday. Yesterday, my biggest concern was this 48 hour deadline that he had given. Because when you look at what he was asking the military to do, everything he was asking them to do fell under a category of the Geneva Convention, which is a war crime. So when you're talking to guys like me, having been a senior leader in the military, those are the kind of things that you're tasked to do that you say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, we can't do that. I mean, you're talking about hitting targets that will affect civilians, just like the Russians did in Ukraine and they became a pariah. And you're talking about, you know, expanding the war horizontally, where you're giving the other nation a chance. And I don't care how many press conferences Secretary Hegseth and General Kaine give where they talk about how many numbers of launchers and ballistic missiles they've destroyed. It seems that Iran just keeps coming up with more. And as you and I both know, having served in Iraq, every time we said, you know, we're about over and it's all done and we've destroyed all their arms caches, you'd find 10 more. You know, these are countries that live by that kind of stuff. And they are not governed. Iran is not governed by people, they're governed by institutions. And right now, you know, the Ayatollah is the institution along with the irgc. So you can't destroy them just by Decapitating, which is what Israel has been attempting to do. And we followed suit. You can't destroy them thinking you're going to get all the arms caches and missile caches all over the place and knock them out and they'll have no more, because there's always going to be more. And this is a country three times the size of Iraq. I served in northern Iraq, and it was frigging big, and there was shit all over the place that I knew nothing about going on, that soldiers were trying to deal. So I know I'm going on about this, but war is chaotic and complex, and you really never know which way it's going to go. And you especially don't know which way it's going to go if you go in without a strategy. And that's what we've seen this administration do.
- [12:52]
Paul Rykoff
So I'm with you on all that. And what I keep challenging people is we understand that Trump has no strategy, right? Or if he does, it's a chaotic one. And what I've been challenging, the Democrats especially, is, what is your strategy to stop him? What is your strategy to end the war? What is your strategy? Is it impeachment? Is it deny the funding? Are you going to shut down the government like you did over health care or over ice? Like, are you going to do anything other than just report and express outrage? Because he doesn't seem to be stopping for anything except the courts, which have been really selective. Right. And we don't know what internal conversations are happening with Kaine, whoever else. But the most dangerous course of action is he does keep going. He sends in the 82nd, he sends in the Marines. It gets worse. It continues to go lateral. And then what? What do they do then? Then they're stuck over a barrel where they're. They have to decide to vote against this $200 billion supplemental or not. And I said this to another person on media. Like, I would not be surprised if in 2028, the presidential candidates are running on getting us out of Iran, because it could take that long to get us out of Iran. But where do you see as the leverage points where we can push our leaders, or even folks who want to protest or they want to call their congressmen, what are the points of pressure that they can put on this to actually turn it in a different direction?
- [14:10]
General Mark Hertling
Well, I actually think this weekend was the first major turning point in the war, when he proclaimed he was going to go in in 48 hours and destroy this. And everybody, from the economists to the politicians to the Allies all said, are you frigging crazy? The thing that you point out that still hasn't happened is that tipping point within our Congress where they just say, no, we're not going to do this. And there has now been such chaos in so many places that he is. The administration is overwhelming us with things. I mean, good Lord, ice at the airports still, ice in the streets, doing things that they're doing. The economy's a mess. It bounced back to Dave only because he said something that he wasn't going to do. So when are people going? When are the legislators going to say, as you just said, enough is enough. It only takes a few, and it only takes someone who is courageous as opposed to being a coward. That's what we're seeing across the board. He is not representing the American people. I'm going to go back to what you said to open up where when you go to war, you get the country behind you first. Boy, there's nothing more important than that. And I'm scratching my head because you and I know that as a couple of simple old soldiers, how come Congress doesn't realize they are the representatives of the people and the people don't want this? So why aren't you voting? What is going on? Are you just, you know, throw your hands up and say you're a coward or you want to resign from Congress next year and you're just going to hold on to the retirement pay from being a congressman? I don't get it, Paul. I am saddened by the lack of courage within some of our leaders, the value of personal courage and speaking up. But I truly believe, because I'm an eternal optimist, that it's coming. And I think this weekend was probably a big step. Next weekend could be part of it, too, with the no Kings march. That will probably be much bigger than the last one.
- [16:22]
Paul Rykoff
Yeah, I mean, if they ever just called it something else, it would probably be even bigger. I mean, if they just called it the no Trump march, I think it would probably, like have levels higher. But now it's the no Iran war march, too. Right. So it's going to become like a catch all for all things, which I think is also. I've been talking about this a lot, sir. Like there is a consensus happening in America, like we don't have, you know, unity around too many things, but now we actually have unity against the Iran war and we have unity against ice, and it can kind of converge on a unity against Trump if people can help square that circle with an alternative or With a plan. This is going to be a wild summer of politics, news and elections. Primaries continue to roll on. We have the biggest midterms ever. The intersection of sports and politics is happening every single day. And you can trade on the biggest political races and activities on Cauchy. On Kalshi, you can trade major primaries, election outcomes and the biggest political storylines as they happen leading up to the biggest midterms ever. You can pick who's going to control Congress. You can pick who's going to win the Senate race in Maine, Graham Pletner or Susan Collins. You can bet on the World Cup. You can trade on the World cup and much more. It's all on cow. You're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position for a limited time, download the cow app and use the code for this show independent and get $10 when you trade 10k a l s h I kalshi, where you can trade on anything, including just about everything you hear about on here. On independent Americans 18 and only, 18 and over. Only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Even contract trading involves risk. It may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshee.com backslash regulatory. But check out our friends at Kalshi who are big supporters of independent Americans. And go to Kalshee where you can trade on just about anything and they'll help you stay vigilant. But I want to ask you something. I keep flagging that I don't think gets enough attention. The Democrats strategy often is we're going to win back Congress in the fall. He said he's gonna attack the elections. He says he doesn't want free and fair elections. He's doing things like deploying ice to the airports. He's sending Tulsi Gabbard down to Georgia. I mean, how would you rate the level of probability or threat level around him messing with the elections? I mean, I feel like it's, you know, 50 50. But maybe, maybe more likely than not that he will do something to impede the elections because he knows the impact it could have on him. How do you see that piece? And is it literally a situation where, you know, Hegseth says he's fine with it and Cain says no, and this becomes the crossing point for the future of our democracy?
- [19:15]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, I think it could be a tipping point. I don't want to put a percentage of it. I'm concerned about it too, Paul, because everything he, you know, this was something 18 months ago we would have said this would never have happened. But look at all the other things we said would never happen. And they've all happened. I mean, there were war games. I was a part of a war game in June of 24 that addressed the Project 20, 25 stuff. And some of it was so ridiculous, you say, oh, there's no way, that'll never happen. And by the way, this. I'll tell a quick war story. When I was going into Iraq in 2007, we were doing our training exercises as a division staff down at Grafenwehr. And we were almost through with the two weeks training of different things that we had to prepare for. And finally they threw one more thing at us in the last four hours of the exercise. And my thought was, oh, crap, that'll never happen. And it was that the terrorists would blow up the Carrera Bridge in northern Iraq to stop the flow of goods from east to west. And my chief of staff persuaded me, he goes, hey, sir, he says, we got, we got four, we got four hours left. Let's just knock this out. And we know it'll never happen, but we'll prepare the battle drill for it. I said, okay, so we did. Two weeks into Iraq in 2007, the terrorists blew the bridge between the Carrera Bridge between East and west. And boy, were we glad we had that preparation to execute so we could put the bridge back in place within 24 hours. This is the kind of thing we're facing right now. Everything we say could never happen is happening and it's all unbelievable. In fact, my wife has banned me from saying unbelievable when I see recent news reports because she said the word is overused and they're all believable because they're happening right now. That didn't answer your question at all. But I think we've got to be very concerned about the potential of interference in our elections.
- [21:15]
Paul Rykoff
I think you did answer it. And I think the Democrat. What I want to hear from the Democrats is what's your strategy to stop it? What are you going to do to protect it? You know, it's a possible threat, right? Just like in the war gaming, they could blow up the bridge. Okay, so you have a scenario for what to do if they blow up the bridge? Democrats, what are you going to do if he deploys ice against the elections? What are you going to do if he sends Tulsi Gabbard into another. I mean, let's war game this because it doesn't seem like you have a strategy other than often like surrender and wait till November and that's like not really I think an effective strategy if you look at the phase lines. I mean the other part of this that I want to talk to you about that I think is important is the threats to the homeland are undoubtedly up. Right? We know that there have been incidents already and there could be sympathetic attacks, but we know the overall threat level is up. Everyone in law enforcement, FBI will tell you that. Now Trump says it's up, but because he says it's up doesn't mean it's not true. So we could have a situation where we have a domestic terrorist attack and then he responds to it, right? Well, this is I think maybe one of the most serious situations where there's a failure of imagination. They blow up one bridge or they hit one historic site or they have a ship container come in. Any, it could be a small thing, right. But it can be the animating function to wake people up to the threat of drones, you know, Iranian sleeper cells, any other number of things he could try to convolute it into. But can you talk about what could be a possibility where one attack, multiple attacks and then we have to look to the guy who we know is a liar and we can't trust we're going to be in a really dangerous place if that happens. Right?
- [22:46]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, exactly. Let me, let me hit on what you talked about, what the Democrats can do because I think in talking with some of are doing some things under the radar like attempting to co op their fellow members of Congress to say seriously, you know, in fact it probably includes a whole bunch of shaming too. I mean these guys can't continue to say gee, I didn't hear the President say that or I didn't know that was part of the plan. They, they know what's going on. These guys are not dumb people. Well, maybe a few of them are really dumb people, but most of them are not. So there is I think an underground movement within the House of Representatives to co opt and get more people on your side. And if we continue to see the so called unbelievable things, I think we'll get more going to your question about the potential for attacks on our soil. I mean you gotta believe that they are going to happen. I do. I'm surprised they haven't happened yet. And when we talk about the institutions that have been denigrated, the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Agency, the FBI has had agents taken off counterterrorism stuff. The defense, the director of National Intelligence. I don't know what she's doing. But, you know, her testimony last week gave me no confidence at all that she knows at all what she's doing. The CIA, I'm not sure what's happening there. Radcliffe's a pretty smart guy, but is he representing the intelligence to the President? When he's thinking about going into other countries in a way that prevents him from doing something? I gotta believe that the 48 hour notice that occurred on Saturday to start bombing civilians, probably a bunch of people said, hey, Mr. President, we really can't do that. You're going to lose the military. And the intelligence says it's going to crash the markets and destroy the Middle East. So maybe that helped a little bit, I don't know. But the potential for an attack on American soil could be small, could be big. And the biggest thing, Paul, which comes to. I'm agreeing with you that we have. We have collectively lost trust in all of our institutions. I'm again going back to the point that I'm an optimist, and I'm very trustful of our institutions. And I think that people go to work on a daily basis to do the right thing. But we've been shown that in some cases, that's not happening right now.
- [25:21]
Paul Rykoff
So I think you and I are aligned on so much of this, and we've been talking at it from different sides. I want to go below the radar on something I think you're uniquely positioned to talk about, which we've been touching on the show. And I didn't prepare you for this, but I thought you were the right guy to talk about this. You worked on the President's Council on Fitness, Sports and Nutrition, right? And now you've got Hegseth Kennedy, even Trump, like, creating this demented idea of fitness and strength and manhood, right? I mean, even down to Cash Patel, all of them, right? And they've created this kind of faux, not just toxic, but like, steroidified version of what American leadership should be. Mark Wayne Mullen, I've said, is like, you know, a worse version of Kirsty Noem because he threatens to beat people up and creates that kind of toxic culture of aggression and no empathy. But also, like, on a very basic level, I'm not surprised Kennedy's going to get rotator cuff surgery after working out in jeans and probably doing it with some help. But this idea that they are changing, even nutrition, fitness, vaccines, you sit in a place where you've led tens of thousands of troops, you've studied this, you've taught this. Can you talk about what that means for our kids and also how we can counter that when there's such a flood of this crap of hegseth doing push ups and all the other. It's upside down of what I can remember seeing as a kid coming out of the White House of people eating right and doing push ups and running and doing the fitness test at school now. It's just totally demented and warped.
- [27:01]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, well, like a lot of other things too. And what I tell you is, I mean, you even take a look at the members of the President's Council on Fitness. I don't want to denigrate any of them, but these are not experts or even people who can message what true fitness and physical readiness is all about. And I think if one of the things I used to do when, when I was command and basic training is we had a chart that showed the obesity level of the nation by State in 2001 and compared it with 2010 and the trend lines of what we were seeing. I work. Part of my time is spent in healthcare. I was just at a conference in New Orleans last week on oncology and talking to the doctors there. They're talking about the increased levels of comorbidity, their increased levels of obesity and overweight, the increased levels of people not being vaccinated, hearing things over the radio through, you know, different influencers, as we like to say, that are not scientifically based. And it's all destroying what was already a bad trend line for the health of our nation. I mean, I see Hegseth doing the push ups with the seals and what's his name, Kennedy, you know, doing his warm water bass and all that other stuff. And it's, it's the equivalent of I, it's, it is physical fitness cultism. You know, it may be good for one or two people, but there's not going to be a whole lot of people following it. And, and I had a Ted Talk back in 2009, I don't know if you ever saw it, about how fitness is a national security concern because we were going downhill fast. We're even worse today. You know, everybody's saying that the increase in retention of the arm or the recruitment of soldiers for the army is up. It is because we've created a camp that helped people get in shape, you know, before they go into basic training. There's so many lies and disparities in this thing. And the other reason recruitment is up is because we're recruiting more women than men because they can do the stuff that they're asked to do. Hegseth will never admit that. So those are the kind of things that we're just. We're seeing mal information and misinformation across the board. And the examples that you cited are just a portion of it. There's a whole lot more going on than just that.
- [29:35]
Paul Rykoff
So I think your book is a really important gut check in helping people understand how to stay vigilant around the cost of war and what we're asking folks to do. You know, the book is called if I Don't Return, A Father's Wartime Journal. You've been. I'm glad to see you're everywhere. And it was a perfect timing for your book because the caskets are coming home. People don't understand the human cost of war. We had Bonnie Carroll on a week and a half ago to talk about what Taps does in those couple of days. But what do you think is great
- [30:07]
General Mark Hertling
organization, by the way?
- [30:09]
Paul Rykoff
Absolutely. What do you think is the most important takeaway from your book? And also what do you want people to look for? I mentioned in the show yesterday how we're seeing coffins. And you're not just seeing coffins. You're seeing families crying on coffins. Because in the area of social media, somebody can stick a camera at the window at the airport, and we're seeing it. And you're seeing this grief out in the open almost in a way you've never seen before. And I think it is hitting people and it's resonating with people. But what do you think is the most important takeaway from your book? And what should they be looking about? Looking for as inevitably and unfortunately more wounded and killed in action. Come home.
- [30:46]
General Mark Hertling
Well, this. This was the original book. You probably recognize this. This is an army green notebook. So this was the book. And in fact, this is the journal. I mean, you look inside of it. So when we deployed the Desert Storm,
- [30:58]
Paul Rykoff
this is a reason to watch us on YouTube. I'll tell you if you're listening now, go over to YouTube so you can see the actual book with his handwriting in it.
- [31:06]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah. So this is when. When we deployed the Desert Storm, I was a young major in a cavalry squadron, and before the war, that we were going to sustain 50% casualties. And when I started thinking about that, we had two young boys at the time, 7 and 10. And I thought, okay, if I'm a casualty, if I don't come home, how do I teach them life lessons? So many people will think this is a war book. And there's certainly a segment. The middle segment is about the war itself. But the first and the third segment of the book are all about character development, leadership values, what you should do in terms of friendship and marriage and emotions and those kind of things. So what it was is I took the original, or actually our son, as a gift to me in the Christmas of 25, took this book and transcribed it into a Word document and presented it to me as a Christmas present and said, dad, my brother and I realized what you were doing. And by the way, he's a veteran of multiple deployments now. He said, my brother and I both realized what you were trying to do. You were preparing us if you didn't come home. He said, but you came home, and you spent a whole additional 35 years in the military doing different things and deploying more. He says, so now you got to teach the lessons that you learned since 1991 to your five grandkids. So it is a book sort of centered on war, but it's more about leadership and character and what we need in the country today to help raise our young men and women to be so that's what it's all about.
- [32:40]
Paul Rykoff
Paul, I'm so glad it's out now. We talk about. We had, as I mentioned to you, General Stravides was on yesterday for what we call Manosphere Monday. And I'm trying to make almost every other day Manosphere Monday. We can put positive role models out there and positive male models, positive female role models, but they can push back against this just asinine and damaging view of leadership that's being perpetuated so often. I want to ask you, because my kids are 10 and 7 now, I want to ask you a question that's. That I think about is what was the conversation like when your first son came to you and said he wanted to join the military, knowing what. You know, what was that? Because I. I kind of. It's so daunting to me, right to my wife, even more so because now my boys are getting old enough and they're interested, and I can see it and, you know, one day, that conversation. But how did you approach that conversation? And also for a lot of parents who are having that conversation now, the acceptances are out now for academies. A lot of folks are thinking about what they're gonna do after college. What was that conversation like for you with your kids?
- [33:47]
General Mark Hertling
Well, it's a great segue to this cause. Our first son, who's still in the military, he's a colonel now. He was a runner. He was a track star and a cross country runner. And he was going to Wake Forest. And he came to my wife and I one day, we were sitting around the kitchen table, and he said, hey, what would. He said, dad, what would you think if I joined ROTC at Wake Forest? And my reaction is, this was a son who hated the moves every time we moved, and he had to make new friends. And we made 24 moves. And he said. I said, todd, you know, you're on a. You're going to be running track, and you're going to be running cross country and studying. I said, why would you want to do this? And what he said, and the reason I laughed a minute ago, he said, dad. And we were in West Springfield, Virginia, at the time. I was stationed at the Pentagon. And he said, dad, he says, I've seen a lot of my friends in school and their parents. And he says, I like your friends better. He said. And he named a couple of my friends, like Marty Dempsey and Doug Lute and guys that I'm really good friends with. And he goes, I just see them representing values and character a lot better than my friend's parents who were civilians. So that shocked me. The second shocker was our second son, who was he. He was not as, let's say, disciplined as our first son, as all second sons aren't. And he came up to my wife one day and he says, I want to go to West Point. And she was like. And I actually tried to persuade him not to go. I said, scott, you're going to get in trouble at West Point. You're going to get in a lot of trouble. But he went and was a star swimmer there and did well in academics and had a career of his own. And he's still working in government, not in the military. But those are the kind of things that, as a parent, you give yourself high fives about when your kids make good decisions for the right reasons. But at the same time, you can't take credit for all the good things they've done. Just like you can't take blame for all the bad things they do, right?
- [35:47]
Paul Rykoff
As a parent, I. I appreciate that so much. My boys know when my vet friends are around versus the other dads that are around. Like, they know, and they have. They almost have a radar now. They said, you know, like, did you know that what's his name's dad was in the military at one point? I said, yeah. And he said, yeah, I could kind of tell. I was like, you know, it's not the boots, but it's the attitude. You know what it is? It's the secret sauce. Right. But, yeah, that's a wonderful answer that I had never heard before. That's so true and important, especially because it can feel so isolating having served. And you feel almost like you come from a samurai class where you have a different set of values and sacrifices and experiences that other folks can't relate to. But also, we appreciate stuff more. Right?
- [36:29]
General Mark Hertling
I mean, and one more thing about this book, the reviews that I'm getting and the people coming up to me, you know, I wrote this book for the 99% of Americans that don't understand what the military does and how families are involved and how emotions are evolved and fear and anxiety and going to war and all those kind of things. And I've had. In the last two days, I've had five women come up to me and she says, oh, my God, I'm crying all the way through this book. So it isn't typically a war book. It's more about who we are as a military. So I highly recommend it for Father's Day and graduation and gifts and all those things. The more I can sell, the better. And by the way, I give 50% of the proceeds to the National Ability center out in Park City, Utah, which helps our veterans get back to normal, which is great.
- [37:18]
Paul Rykoff
Excellent. I want to. I want to big up that. And Mother's Day, too. Great Mother's Day gift. You can do it for anything. Let me ask you, you know, we've been recruiting for independent veterans to run 100. We're shooting for 100 now. There are, I think, over half a dozen that are running for Senate. I tried to get even Colbert to run against Lindsey Graham. I think anyone should run against Fetterman in Pennsylvania. But what about you, sir? I mean, you're down in Florida. Would you run for office? Can we get you to run for office as an independent vet to help us try to bring a voice of reason to our politics?
- [37:51]
General Mark Hertling
Hell, no. I'll help anybody I can with discussions, but I'm an old white guy, Paul. What we need is young people and women and people who understand the next generation. I'm too old for this. And plus, politics ain't my bag.
- [38:04]
Paul Rykoff
You know, you'd be young compared to some of the guys that are there now.
- [38:09]
General Mark Hertling
True.
- [38:11]
Paul Rykoff
But I do think you have a. You know, we need people who are unifiers who can meet this moment, and you continue to do that. And that's why I'm so grateful for Your friendship and your leadership and your continued sacrifice. Let's end with something good. I gave you a heads up. This will be coming. I'll start and I'll bring it over to you. My something good today is in the spirit of Leadership. Mr. Rogers is now free. Mr. Rogers Neighborhood is coming to YouTube. It's getting its own page. And for the first time, the show will be on demand for free. Ryan Ditto posted this on Axios. Fred Rogers Productions told him the page is coming this summer. It was Mr. Rogers birthday on Friday, the first day of spring, also Big Bird's birthday. They coincide, but I think it's a time when we need Mr. Rogers. And during the pandemic a lot. I had my kids watch Mr. Rogers and they really loved it. And I remember One thing that PBS said about Mr. Rogers, which was for many children, that was the best male role model they had in their family. Right? For folks who were latchkey kids and a lot of us who grew up watching TV, Mr. Rogers made you feel okay and Mr. Rogers made you feel seen and important. And I think that's especially important right now for so many kids who don't feel seen and don't feel like they have a mission. But Mr. Rogers is always something good. Free. Mr. Rogers is coming soon for everybody and we need it now more than ever. That's my something good. All right, General Hertling, over to you. What do you got? This something good.
- [39:32]
General Mark Hertling
Two things. Something good. Paul, I'm going to follow on because you had your kids watching Mr. Rogers. Our youngest son has his two boys watching Looney Tune cartoons because he thinks those are the best things going. And the other day we were up there visiting and one of the sons who's 8, said, hey, these cartoons are much better than the cartoons we were watching before for us. But the other thing I want to say, as long as you mentioned Mr. Rogers and we set this up because you said you were going to do this, but I currently have a part time job teaching leadership at Rollins College here in Orlando, the Crummer School of Business. Here's a mug to prove it. It says Rollins College, Crummer School of business. That is Mr. Rogers alma mater. And what's interesting for me, having gone to West Point where the entire campus is filled with people like Patton and Grant and Eisenhower and MacArthur statue. The only statue at Rollins College is Mr. Rogers with a bunch of kids around him reading them a story. So I've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous in terms of my educational institutions.
- [40:40]
Paul Rykoff
I think those are both Great. And I think anything that salutes Mr. Rogers is important. I love going to West Point. I take my boys there a couple times a year. They're going to go back for baseball camp this summer. It's a great environment for them to be in. But. But that. That is truly a good reminder of. Of the kind of leaders we need to hold up. Right? I mean, Mr. Rogers is one of those examples. And the fact that you're teaching is really important, too. They're lucky to have you there, and we need you back there. Maybe more than on MSNBC or anywhere else.
- [41:12]
General Mark Hertling
Helping or running for office or running for political office. Get somebody else to do that. I'm not. I'm not biting at your opportunity there, Paul.
- [41:20]
Paul Rykoff
Hey, you know what? Sometimes you get drafted, sir, right? Sometimes it's not up to you. And your country needs you. So if I were in Florida, I'd be nervous about you running, especially if you're on Tim Miller's podcast all the time, which is like top five now. I mean, that's the kind of media attention most candidates can only dream of, right?
- [41:38]
General Mark Hertling
Yep. Got it.
- [41:39]
Paul Rykoff
All right, well, General Erling, you continue to be a great leader for our country. Everyone should check out your new book. It'll be linked in the show Notes if you're watching on YouTube, especially, share it far and wide. Watch the General on your tv. And especially now as a part of the Bulwark Team, he's writing and putting out great content that you really need to check out. But I appreciate you, sir. Maybe we'll have to have you back for Father's Day, and I'll try to ask you to run for office again.
- [42:02]
General Mark Hertling
Okay? That sounds good, Paul. Hey, thanks for having me, buddy. It's always a pleasure being with you.
- [42:06]
Paul Rykoff
Thank you, sir. All right, there he is, General Mark Hertling. Follow him everywhere and he'll help you stay vigilant
- [42:14]
General Mark Hertling
Those without a clue and when you wait it's time to grow
- [42:20]
Paul Rykoff
and it's not cool to believe in
- [42:21]
General Mark Hertling
school but if I can say one
- [42:22]
Paul Rykoff
thing I've seen the children of the
- [42:24]
General Mark Hertling
revolution and the good trouble they can bring he says the red and blue are dead and independent is an attitude an island in the sea of rhetoric and tells me the left and right Our dreams proposed without a clue and when you wake up Time to grow.
- [42:43]
Paul Rykoff
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- [42:50]
General Mark Hertling
a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.