Podcast Summary

Podcast: Inevitable (an MCJ Podcast)

Episode: De-Extinction as a Platform Business with Colossal Biosciences
Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Cody Simms
Guest: Ben Lamm, CEO & Co-founder, Colossal Biosciences

Overview

This episode features Ben Lamm, CEO and co-founder of Colossal Biosciences, the world’s first de-extinction company. Host Cody Simms digs deep into Colossal’s recent headline-grabbing scientific feats—such as the birth of dire wolf pups and the creation of the “woolly mouse”—as well as the broader commercial vision behind de-extinction as a platform business. The conversation covers Colossal’s platform model, research spinouts, partnerships with indigenous and governmental organizations, ethical and risk debates, and the polarizing nature of such frontier biotech work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Science-Fiction Reality of De-Extinction

• Colossal’s Achievements
  • First dire wolves birthed in 12,000 years: Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi, following extensive ancient DNA mapping and genetic engineering (00:00).
  • Creation of the “woolly mouse”: genetically edited lab mice with mammoth-like fur (04:13).
  • “On track to have woolly mammoth calves by 2028.” (00:00)
• Big Picture
  • From science fiction (think Jurassic Park) to real-world venture-backed business models.
• Platform Model
  • Colossal is spinning out companies, licensing intellectual property (IP), and partnering with governments on conservation (00:00–03:10).

2. Making De-Extinction Possible: Scientific Process & Flagship Species

• End-to-End De-Extinction System
  • Built computational biology, cellular engineering, ancient DNA, genetic engineering, and animal husbandry cores (05:57).
• Flagship Projects
  • Four main species: Woolly Mammoth, Tasmanian Tiger (Thylacine), Dodo, and Moa.
  • Partnerships with indigenous groups and figures like Sir Peter Jackson (for the Moa) (04:13).
  • Dire wolf project: from a 73,000-year-old skull and 12,000-year-old tooth to live puppies, in 18 months (05:57).
• Notable Quote:

  “This is the first time that ancient DNA, we've mapped ancient DNA to their closest living relative and engineered those lost genes into that of a living species...It's the world's first de-extinction, right?”
  — Ben Lamm ([07:21])

3. Cultural, Ecological, and Conservation Motivation for Species Selection

• Why Dire Wolves?
  • Ecological significance, educational/cultural resonance, relevance to indigenous partners, and potential to aid endangered red wolves (10:46).
  • Community consultation and genetic technology (EPCs for non-invasive cloning).
  • Dire wolves ticked every box: feasibility, impact, cultural resonance (16:53).
• Notable Moment:

  “Most people thought [dire wolves] were mythical creatures...like Game of Thrones or Magic the Gathering..."
  — Ben Lamm ([17:00])

4. Founder Journey: From Gaming to Genome Engineering

• Non-Traditional Background
  • Ben Lamm: serial entrepreneur with five exits in gaming, creative studios, and defense software—no prior biotech expertise (18:40).
• Sparked by George Church
  • Co-founder George Church (Harvard geneticist): de-extinction as the one thing he’d do “to help humanity” if resources were unlimited (20:19).
• Ecological Importance
  • The ripple effect of returning keystone species (illustrated by the impact of wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone) (21:43; 22:34).

5. Environmental and Climate Impact

• Mammoth Synthesis for Arctic Restoration
  • Mammoths as carbon sinks and environmental modifiers—helping to revitalize degraded Arctic ecosystems (24:41).
  • Mammoths were not limited to cold environments—wide historical range (24:41).
• Carbon Markets & Biodiversity Credits
  • Experimental biodiversity credit/carbon credit models linked to species reintroduction (27:55).
  • Acknowledgment of debates: “What everyone generally agrees is that a ecosystem that's absent large megafauna...is a degraded ecosystem.” (26:46)

6. Conservation Priorities and Trade-Offs

• Tech as a Force-Multiplier
  • Lamm emphasizes an “and, not or” approach: conservation and de-extinction go hand-in-hand (28:52).
  • 99.999% of conservation effort should remain on existing approaches—Colossal as a “safety net” for species at the edge (28:52).
• Funding Gaps
  • Conservation funding gap in the hundreds of billions globally (29:06).

7. Colossal’s Venture Model: Platform, Spinouts, and IP

• Business Model
  • Platform approach: R&D spins out companies, key IP is licensed, contract work for governments (31:34; 35:35).
  • Three spin-outs, two public: Form Bio (computational biology, drug “de-extinction”), Breaking (plastic-degrading enzymes and microbes) (33:30; 34:42).
  • Working with governments on boosting populations of endangered but extant species—applying Colossal’s genetic tools for population recovery (36:11; 37:34).
  • Education/media business (e.g., curriculum for national school systems) and Colossal Foundation for nonprofit rewilding and conservation work (40:12; 40:37).
• Notable Quote:

  “[We] are delivering 95 plus edits at a time in multiplex editing. No one else on the planet is doing that..."
  — Ben Lamm ([37:57])

8. Ethics, Risks, and Polarization

• Dual Use & Security
  • Synthetic biology's “dual use” dilemma—possibility for bioweapons, need for transparency and close ties with government (including intelligence community investments) (41:18).
  • Lamm: “synthetic biology...significantly more powerful than nuclear weapons or anything else that we could ever think of” (41:18).
• Moral Questions
  • “Just because you can, should you?” Societal debate is unavoidable and necessary (42:19; 42:29).
• Inspiration & Education
  • De-extinction as a means to ignite public imagination and inspire future scientists (42:29; 43:15).
• Handling Polarization
  • Colossal’s approach: proactive transparency, ongoing public and media engagement, embrace of constructive criticism (43:52).
• Notable Quote:

  “Our job is to really educate. It's not to persuade.”
  — Ben Lamm ([45:12])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reaction to Dire Wolf Announcement:

  "It ended with 68% positive, which is insane. I don't feel like you do anything in America right now and get more than 50% positive. I feel like 50% positive is the new 100% positive, like the 90s."
  — Ben Lamm ([06:38])

• On Non-Invasive Cloning Tech:

  “We can open source this cloning technology...we built kind of really cool, like a pan genome for wolf populations.”
  — Ben Lamm ([14:05])

• On Re-Introduction of Keystone Species:

  “The ripple effect of, like, removing wolves in 1925 and reintroducing them in 1995, 70 years later, is vastly insane.”
  — Ben Lamm ([22:05])

• On Mammoths and the Pyramids:

  “We as humans were building the pyramids while mammoths were roaming the Earth.”
  — Ben Lamm ([22:39])

• On Conservation Funding Realities:

  "Hundreds of billions is what you actually have to do. Right. And so the only way you can bridge that gap is through innovation and technology."
  — Ben Lamm ([29:16])

• On Ethical Responsibility:

  "We have a moral obligation to innovate and build technologies and to create as a species. And I think this is just another canvas to paint within."
  — Ben Lamm ([42:29])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Introduction, Colossal's recent achievements | | 04:13 | Details on the “woolly mouse,” dire wolf project | | 07:21 | First successful de-extinction: scientific milestones | | 10:46 | Why dire wolves? Ecological and cultural rationale | | 16:53 | How dire wolves jumped to the top of the list | | 18:40 | Ben’s non-biotech background, entrepreneurial journey | | 20:19 | George Church’s vision, keystone species’ importance | | 22:34 | Mammoth reintroduction and climate impact | | 26:46 | Debates around permafrost and mammoths’ ecological role | | 27:55 | Biodiversity/carbon credit business models | | 28:52 | Conservation vs. de-extinction: complementary strategies | | 31:34 | Colossal’s business model, spinouts, government work | | 34:42 | Breaking: plastic degradation spinout explained | | 36:11 | Working with governments for population restoration | | 37:57 | Technical innovations in multiplex editing | | 39:27 | Application of tech to (and line drawn at) human health | | 40:12 | Education/media business and Colossal Foundation | | 41:18 | Dual-use, bioweapon risks, regulation & transparency | | 42:29 | Moral obligation, inspiration, future generations | | 43:52 | Handling polarization, company transparency |

Flow & Tone

Throughout, the conversation is lively and informal, peppered with humor (“I try not to drop F bombs, but like what the hell.” [05:51]), awe, and both skepticism and excitement. The host and guest embrace both the radical promise and daunting uncertainties of Colossal’s work, maintaining transparency around both the technical and moral stakes.

Conclusion

This episode captures the intersection of breakthrough synthetic biology, entrepreneurial ambition, ecological and ethical complexity, and public fascination. Colossal Biosciences is not only reviving extinct species but also pioneering a platform business at the bleeding edge of science and society.