Natalie Roberman (3:17)

From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media. This is Infamous. I'm Natalie Roberman. I don't know if you remember watching America's Next Top Model, but I certainly do. It began airing in May 2003 when I was 12 years old. And like a lot of tween and teen girls, right from the get go, I was glued. America's Next Top Model was pitched as the real world meets American Idol. Set in the fashion industry, its mission, or so it claimed, was to turn regular girls into fashion superstars. Its host and creator was Tyra Banks, the green eyed model who made her name as a Victoria's Secret angel and the first black woman to cover the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

Bridget Armstrong (4:03)

People said, oh, black girls aren't gonna be successful. You won't get any covers. No. This, no. That proved them all wrong.

Natalie Roberman (4:08)

And Tyra was impressive. She taught the girls how to smize, that is smile with your eyes. She taught them how to pose. And she had a crew of judges, including Ms. J and J. Manuel, who taught them how to walk the Runway and execute a great photo shoot.

Bridget Armstrong (4:24)

For most models, getting that supermodel stride isn't that easy.

Natalie Roberman (4:28)

So who do they turn to for guidance?

Vanessa (4:30)

Jay Alexander.

Natalie Roberman (4:31)

But there was a lot more going on behind the scenes, which is what we're talking about today. You may have seen the new documentary about America's Next Top Model. It's called Reality Check and it's a pretty wild watch.

Bridget Armstrong (4:44)

No one on the show knew what we were signing up for. Why are we filming this? This show wasn't meant to help us. It was meant to break us down. How many people were scared?

Natalie Roberman (4:54)

I always believed that she would have my back.

Bridget Armstrong (4:58)

I was ultimately proven wrong.

Natalie Roberman (5:00)

In it, the filmmakers sit down with lots of former top Model contestants, judges and executives who reveal what it was really like to be in the running to become America's Next Top Model. From the body shaming.

Bridget Armstrong (5:12)

If the body could just slim down £150. That would be good. Then she'd be £30. That would be better.

Natalie Roberman (5:20)

To the ludicrous photo shoots. We are actually going to switch your ethnicities to the early 2000s reality TV shenanigans.

Bridget Armstrong (5:28)

I have accepted the fact that I'm a. I've been called everything in the book.

Natalie Roberman (5:32)

There was a lot about Top Model that was really, really ugly because at the same time that Tyra and the show claimed to be challenging beauty standards in the fashion industry, they were also upholding and reinforcing them. Last year, pop culture journalist Bridget Armstrong made a podcast all about the show's legacy and complexities. It's called Curse America's Next Top Model. And it uncovered a lot of what has now bubbled to the fore. Bridget, welcome to the show.

Bridget Armstrong (6:01)

Thanks for having me.

Natalie Roberman (6:03)

So when did you start watching America's Next Top Model?

Bridget Armstrong (6:06)

Oh, my gosh. I was in high school. So America's Next Top Model came out in 2003, and that was my freshman year in high school, and I watched from the very first season.

Natalie Roberman (6:16)

What did you like about it?

Bridget Armstrong (6:17)

Back in those days, reality TV was new, right? So there were shows like Big Brother, there was Survivor, and I watched those shows, but it was like they weren't about things I was interested in. Top Model, however, combined all of my favorite things at the time, makeup, modeling and fashion. So it felt like something I could relate to, something I could aspire to. And at that time, a lot of the shows that were out were not necessarily for a young woman audience. So I think it was probably the first show, first reality show I watched that felt like it was for me.

Natalie Roberman (6:54)

For those who haven't seen it, can you describe what the show is like?

Bridget Armstrong (6:58)

So the premise is Tyra Banks, who at that time was coming off being one of the most recognizable and known supermodels in the world. She's one of the very few, like, out of two black supermodels. And she is the host of this show where she's going to pick and make the next Top Model. So girls from all over the country come to these auditions, and Tyra Banks and her team of judges pick the girls that they thought had the best potential to become models. And at least on the first season, they would do these challenges every week where they have to pose in a bikini on top of a rooftop in the middle of February. And the girl who had the worst photo or performed the worst was sent home. And each week, the girls were dwindled down. They started off with 10 until you had one, and then that girl was crowned Top Model. So these were girls that were just regular degular pretty girls. And they came on the show and Tyra and her judges were teaching them to be models. But what made it so interesting is that you also went back home with them, Right? Like, it wasn't like a American Idol where you see them sing, they get judged, and that's it. You also went back with them to the model apartment. And so you saw all the drama that happened when they weren't at a photo shoot.

Natalie Roberman (8:11)

They were all living together in these apartments, or at least in season one, as you reported, this sort of shitty hotel room that they converted into apartments. But, yeah, I mean, part of what was so appealing to me, at least as a young viewer, was what you describe as this kind of Cinderella story where it's these girls who seem regular. Yes, pretty, maybe tall. But that they might become supermodels is so exciting because it's this wish fulfillment for you where you're like, oh, wow, maybe that could be me too. You know, and the makeover is really crucial, too. They always have this sort of ugly duckling makeover where suddenly these girls just have their full potential unleashed and they come out looking gorgeous kind of.

Bridget Armstrong (8:56)

Kind of sometimes. It was a disaster. The makeover episodes were my favorite. I think there were a lot of fans favorite, right. Because you got to see these transformations that sometimes really were amazing, but you also get to got to see the meltdowns.

Natalie Roberman (9:11)

I'm a little overwhelmed.

Bridget Armstrong (9:13)

I want to cry.

Natalie Roberman (9:14)

Because the worst is already done.

Bridget Armstrong (9:16)

A girl who's worn her hair long or is a pageant girl, right. Gets a pixie cut. You see a lot of botched hair color, people who've never had hair extensions getting a full sew in. So it was like this mix of the fulfillment of seeing them blossom, but also this drama of people having to go through this change on camera.

Natalie Roberman (9:36)

So when did Top Model come back into your consciousness? I mean, did you keep watching it? Probably not, no.

Bridget Armstrong (9:42)

So a lot of people, I don't think, realize Top Model went on as long as it did. It's 24 seasons, so I think most of us, a lot of fans that started in the early days watched maybe the first 10 or 15 seasons in the early 2000s. I was one of those fans. But in 2020, people started rewatching the series from the beginning as people started pointing out some of the really shocking and sometimes disturbing stuff that happened on the show. I went back and, like, watched some of those episodes. I don't know if you Remember? But on TikTok, people were pointing out things that I remembered them as being a part of the show, but we were talking about them in a different context. And so I would go back and watch, like, wow, I remember Robyn from season one. Robyn was the only plus size model on that season. I remembered her, but I didn't remember how poorly she was treated until I went back and watched around 2020. One problem that I do have with Robyn, I think on the top she's not plus size, and on the bottom she is. It's clear that Robin. Robin doesn't have the personality to be a top model. She should be working at Avis.

Natalie Roberman (10:51)

So when you started making your podcast, who did you talk to first?

Bridget Armstrong (10:54)

So we were working on this project in conjunction with another docu series. It's actually coming out March 11th. It's about top Model. It's called Dirty Rotten Scandals. So there were a few interviews that they'd done with some of the models. And so I jumped in and started talking to them, get a gauge of, like, how they feel about things, what happened to them, and it sort of laid the framework. One of the things that we did two episodes on was the psychiatric evaluations. And so I found out about those from talking to these models. And as I started talking to more models, they all had a very similar experience. And then some of them had a really disturbing experience where they found out that, like, the psych eval was being used to produce them on the show. Right. And so it was. It was things like that where we're. We're talking and I'm seeing the through

Natalie Roberman (11:43)

line, and a little bit of what the title of your podcast refers to is that America's Next Top Model promised to find America's Next Top Model, but none of the winners or really any of the participants went on to really make it as models. And in fact, as you report, being on the show was considered a mark against them in the fashion industry.

Bridget Armstrong (12:06)

Absolutely. So when we started production on the program, I was a little resistant, to be honest, to using that title at first, because I was like, oh, I'm a fan. And I want this to be as much about the negative impact as it is about the fandom and why we liked it. But the more we spoke with people and the more we really looked into it, I sort of realized the curse part is undeniable. And the curse, it's not just on the models. It's not just about Tyra. It's not even just about us, the audience. Right. And it's not even just about the treatment the models faced when they were working on the show. It's what happened to them after. It was the stigma. So we talked to models who winners like. We talked to several winners of their season who, once they left the show, they were signed with whatever agency was the agency sponsoring the season. But they would go in and they found that the agencies didn't know what to do with them. Right. Like these days, if you go to a talent agency, they might have a division that works with reality TV stars, that works with folks who are influencers. Right. But back in these days, they didn't have that. These women were not seen as models because, one, the way they entered the industry was not through traditional means, and two, the stuff they were doing on Top Model was just so unrealistic that the agencies didn't take them seriously. Another thing that I thought, I didn't think about this part. And several models told me that they experienced this. And one of the models, Lisa, actually had modeled before she was on America's Next Top Model and found that when she got off the show, she couldn't go back and book the same job she'd done before because now she's known for the reality show. So while you're trying to be in an ad selling toothpaste, right, you're distracting from the toothpaste because everybody. Oh, that's Lisa from Top Model. And they're not looking at the product, so clients didn't want to work with them either.

Natalie Roberman (14:06)

We're back with more from Bridget. She's going to talk about the America's Next Top Model contracts that she has seen and reported on in her own podcast, though we have not independently seen these and has a lot more to share. A lot of these other kind of talent search shows like American Idol and the Voice, you know, they've had a mixed record, but at least they've had one Kelly Clarkson or whatever else. But I think the issue with Top Model is that a lot of these girls put themselves through very extreme conditions and extreme changes to their face, their teeth, under the premise that it would help them get jobs after. And then that didn't happen. Can we talk about the most extreme makeovers? The teeth and some of the other stuff that happened.

Bridget Armstrong (14:55)

So Joanie and Dani. Dani went on to win her cycle. They were on Cycle six and they were given major dental surgery as their makeover. So Dani had a gap and she was pressured to have it closed. Do you really think you can have a CoverGirl contract with the gap in your mouth? Yes, why not? This is all people see. Eazy reads beautiful covergirl. It's not marketable. She also, at first, she resisted. She didn't want to have it closed at all. The signature gap, it's staying in my mouth. That's who I am. She ultimately decided to close it a bit. Right. Joanie, on the other hand, had like a full. Like she had veneers essentially. Like she had her teeth shaven down and had veneers put in with that process. I'm going to go have all my front 12 teeth grinded down to pencil points. I've been in that dentist's office for 12 hours and I have to deal with it all day tomorrow. Like, these days, if you have that done, there's usually some downtime. You may not even do it all in one day. She had everything done in one day and had to go to a photo shoot the next day and she didn't win. And in Danny's case, you know, she talks about it on the Netflix doc. Once she left Top Model, she didn't book jobs. And she said she ran into Tyra years later. And Tyra pretty much admitted to her that she knew she wasn't getting work and she didn't do anything about it. And you see that story over and over and over. You know, having a haircut is not as extreme as having all your teeth shaven down. But there were women on the show who never had short hair. And we know how much hair is tied to, like, femininity and beauty. Right or wrong. Right. And so to like take these 18 year old girls who've never had their hair, cut that short, cut their hair and then send them home on that same episode, which happened more than once on this show, it's just cruel. And then once they sort of leave the Top Model set, you know, they've been told that this haircut will make them edgy, this haircut will make them a model, or this makeover or this, you know, whatever. And once they got out into the world, they were rejected. I had at least one model tell me her hair was cut off and she went to a agency that said, we'll sign you when you grow your hair back. So it's like they were being told stuff that was strictly for, I think, our entertainment and really had nothing to do with their ability to book jobs.

Natalie Roberman (17:19)

And I mean, part of this is, part of the issue is that Tyra really seemed, at least this is how it appeared on the show, seemed to be the arbiter of fashion and beauty. I Saw this headline from the Onion. Obviously this is a joke, satirical headline. It says, tyra Banks says taking abuse from Tyra Banks. Simply reflective of how the industry works. That really says it all. I mean, at the same time as Danny from Cycle six was forced to close her gap and told she would never make it as a fashion model, Tyra would go on and increase the gap in a model's tooth in a later season. So it just seems all for entertainment or at least random or for nothing or something.

Bridget Armstrong (18:01)

Yeah. I think with Dani's case in particular, and I can't say for sure, Dani was a Southern black girl. Right. And we get into this on my podcast, Tyra's relationship, specifically with the black contestants on her show. Tyra has this thing with respectability, I think, and blackness. And I think for her, Dani's gap represented her being country, her not being refined. Right. And so I do think to a certain extent, it was for the entertainment to see if she could do it. But I think that, like, Tyra didn't see her gap as beautiful because to her, it represented a lack of access. Right. It represented Dani being a working class black girl. Right. But on the other contestant who she later widened her gap, she was a white contestant that then for her, connected to models and actresses, White models and actresses who support their gap and is celebrated. So sometimes, I mean, I don't even know what's worse. Right. Like, there's the arbitrary nature of. Let me pick this thing because I think it'll be entertaining. Right. But sometimes I just think it was Tyra projecting her insecurities or projecting her hangups and her respectability on some of these women. And that doesn't just play out in the makeovers. But I think Dani is such a great example of Tyra sort of resenting black women who didn't embody the same respectability that she did.

Natalie Roberman (19:23)

Let's talk about the we were rooting for you. The Tiffany Richardson iconic scene, which had really become a meme.

Bridget Armstrong (19:30)

Everybody know, Be quiet. That's what is wrong with you. Stop it. I have never in my life yelled at a girl like this. When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you learn something from this?

Natalie Roberman (19:48)

But the truth is, like, much darker. At least it appears.

Bridget Armstrong (19:53)

Yeah, it is. So one thing we uncovered, we spoke with a sound guy. He worked on A and tim for like, 22 of the 24 seasons, and he was working on cycle four when the we were Rooting for you thing played out and he saw the entire confrontation. A lot of it got cut. So what we saw the we were rooting for you, we were all rooting for you. How dare you. Was just a bit of what was said. He told us that Tyra got really, really personal in a way that crossed the line. So Tiffany was at that time a single mother. She talked about coming from a working class background. She lived in, I think a housing project with her grandmother. She talked about sleeping on a mattress on the floor. And this was part of her storyline, right? This girl comes from nothing. This ghetto girl is on the show and let's see if she can make it. That's a part of her storyline. But apparently Tyra brought that up in the confrontation and said like, what are you going to do? Go back home and sleep on the mattress on the floor with your baby? And that's a really low blow anyway. But it's particularly low when you think about the fact that Tyra is making millions of dollars off of these girls and these girls are not even being compensated for their time on the show. Most of them are not going to go on to have a career or opportun modeling world. So that scene got just really ugly and really personal. Tyra likes to say that, you know, she admits she lost her cool, she went too far. But she likes to talk about it as if it was coming from a place of tough love that she really wanted Tiffany to win. And I do think there's some truth in that. Going back to Tyra's love of respectability, what a feat to be able to show that you turned this ghetto black girl into a world class supermodel. Right? And when Tiffany didn't perform in the way that Tyra wanted her to, I think she lost it. But not because she cared so much, but because this was the storyline that she was betting on. And I'll tell you, same as you, it was like a meme, a funny thing, something I might say if like, you know, my friend is late and I'm like, girl, we were rooting for you. But when I rewatched it with the context I have and even just thinking about it from the, from Tiffany's standpoint of being like this young black girl who's being produced and pushed and pulled and to have Tyra, a fellow black woman talk to you in that way and also misread your probably frustration, your fear, all of those things to misread that is like a lack of concern or like not caring about this opportunity. It had to be heartbreaking because I think oftentimes women of color's emotions or the way that we express ourselves can be misread, is being aggressive, being withdrawn, or whatever it is. And so when I rewatched it when we were producing the show, I got a little emotional, to be honest, and that never happened. I mean, as many times as I've watched that meme, I've never gotten emotional about it, but I did when we were doing this show. But it's such an iconic scene. I think it's the thing that everybody knows, But I think it is such a great metaphor for what the rest of A&TM is. Here's this moment. Here's what it looks like. It's happening on the surface. Here's how we remember it today, but it's so much deeper than what we saw.

Natalie Roberman (23:06)

Yeah, that moment really speaks to the complicated role that Tyra played on the show where she was sometimes the ally to these girls or this kind of big sister character. She would go talk to the girls and be pally, pally with them, and then sometimes she would scold them and tell them off and be like a. I don't know, like a really, really harsh mother. But she would play both sides. At least this is how it seemed to me watching the show now for the benefit of making good television. And I'm thinking specifically of the instance with Shandy.

Bridget Armstrong (23:42)

We were just, like, talking, drinking this wonderful comfort to you. I don't think I'd eaten anything at all or had any sleep. I remember getting in the hot tub. I remember April, Mercedes get in the hot tub. And then I just remember the guy looking at me, and I looked at him, and I was pretty drunk at that point. Everything kind of after that is just a blur.

Natalie Roberman (24:16)

Shandy talks about an experience that she had that appears to be an apparent filmed sexual assault where she was intoxicated and hadn't interaction with. With a guy. But the way that it was framed on the show was that Shandy had cheated on her boyfriend. And after this happens, I mean, Tyra comes and. And talks to the girls and just starts obliquely talking about cheating.

Bridget Armstrong (24:40)

I had one guy that cheated on me in Milano. He was a male model child. And that just hurt me so much. But now I always tell my man, like, don't cheat. Flirt so much with the girl and then come home and do me.

Natalie Roberman (24:56)

Of course it makes Shandy feel like shit.

Bridget Armstrong (24:58)

That was probably the most shocking part of the docu series. We got the confirmation from Shandy in the Netflix docu series that she was indeed assaulted. Like, I'll say, like she was. You can't give consent when she's. When she was that drunk. The way that ANTM handled that situation and the way that Tyra and Ken Mock talk about it today was really disturbing for me. So we found out in the docu series that, yes, one Shandy confirmed that she did not, could not give consent in that moment and that the entire encounter was filmed. But we also found out that they filmed her going to the doctor the next day to get tested. They filmed her when she was crying on the floor after she had to make the call to the boyfriend. They pressured her to make the call to the boyfriend because after being assaulted, she wanted to go home and they wouldn't let her. And so that's when they said, okay, you can call the boyfriend, but we're going to film it. Right? Every part of this situation was filmed so they could use it for a storyline. And it's a situation that really shouldn't have happened. Right? Like, production is there the entire time. They see Shandy drinking more and more and more, and they didn't step in to intervene. For me, when Ken Mock in the Netflix docu series, when he says, we treated ANTM like it was a documentary, that's so offensive. And I'm like, you're gaslighting all of us because we know you did not. Like, we know producers stirred the pot. They created situations. They picked the girls they wanted to win and gave them more favorable conditions or challenges or whatever, right? So to use the sort of excuse that, like, oh, it was a documentary, it was really a slap in the face. And Tyra, for me, I think her answer was like, well, production wasn't really my territory, so I can't really speak to that. You remember the story with Shandy?

Natalie Roberman (26:50)

Um,

Bridget Armstrong (26:53)

I do remember her story. It's a little difficult for me to talk about production because I'm. That's not my territory. Furthermore, like you pointed out, Tyra comes to the house to sort of have this shamey conversation with Shandy about, quote, cheating, where she's like, oh, yeah, my man cheated on me once. Have any of you guys ever cheated? It's obvious that Tyra's been told by production what happened the night before before. But even now, 2026, Tyra's like, I don't know what happened. And that's just like. It's probably the worst excuse you can give.

Natalie Roberman (27:26)

But I think what. What's really most heartbreaking about Shandy's situation is that she had no say in how she was depicted and in, in what was filmed. And that was really because of the release that she signed and the contract that she signed.

Bridget Armstrong (27:42)

So the contracts were pretty one sided and they favored the production company, the producers. There's some standard stuff you might see in other, in other reality TV contracts, right? Like the models had to agree that they were not entitled to compensation beyond what they were offered, which was like a per diem. In some cases it was like $12 a day, in some cases it was like $50 a day. But you have to remember when they're not shooting a photo shoot on set, the models had to pay for their own food, toiletries, all of that stuff. So when you put that in context, they made absolutely not like. So that that stuff was standard for reality shows of the time, right? But also ANTM owned the rights to these models stories within the ANTM universe. And that meant that they could not benefit or profit from being on antm. Right? So as one model I spoke to broke it down. You couldn't have a YouTube channel, you couldn't write a book. Once you left that show, ANTM could continue to use your image in whatever way they wanted to tell, whatever story they wanted. And that's actually in the the contract that ANTM could tell your story in a way that's true or not and you couldn't do anything about it and they could use your image and play clips. The next season, there was some really gross language about being able to use footage of the contestants whether they are clothed or unclothed, and whether or not they knew the footage existed. There was language in there about producers reserving the right to strip a winner of their title or the prizes. And we saw that happen with Angelea Preston, who was the original winner of All Stars Cycle 17. Her win was stripped and it was perfectly legal. There was nothing she could do about it.

Natalie Roberman (29:23)

And correct me if I'm wrong, but at least what your reporting uncovered is that allegedly her win was stripped because she was sex trafficked and producers found out about that. Am I oversimplifying it or is that true?

Bridget Armstrong (29:37)

No, no, no. Absolutely. It's absolutely. That's exactly what happened. So Angeli was on a previous season before, and once she left the show, she said she did not get any work whatsoever. Angelique got an angry black girl edit on her season, so that also had something to do with it. And so she eventually got involved with this man who essentially he trafficked her. Like there's no other way to put it she was taken to different states. When she wanted to leave, he didn't allow her to leave. And around the time that she was able to get away, she was able to get away with the help of, like, some friends. She got a call from A and T M to do the All Star season. She comes on, she does All Stars. Now, according to Angeli, she had a conversation with the casting director, Michelle Mock, in which Michelle Mock acknowledged knowing about her being trafficked and said something along the lines of, I just want you to take this opportunity. I know what happened. It's going to stay between us. I want you to take this opportunity and run with it. And that's what Angeli did. And she won the whole season. Somewhere after her win, other execs at ANTM got wind of what happened to Angeli. So they stripped her win, sent her home with like $300, you know, money to get a ticket home, and that was it. They filmed a whole new win, flew in. The other two contestants who were in the top three filmed a whole new final crowned Lisa d' Amato the winner. And there was nothing Angelique could do about it. She tried to sue years later, but she signed that contract and that contract. I mean, there was a clause in there that said that the models couldn't talk about the show, right? And they were told if they did, they would be hit with a $5 million fine. Now, put that in context. You're talking about people who just got out of high school, right? They are in college. They don't have $5 million. One contestant told us that in their orientation meeting, they were told that if you do talk about this show and what happens behind the scenes of this show, we're going to go after you, your kids and your kids, kids wages until we get our $5 million back. She says this is what they were told. Why that's important is because the models were not able to talk about what was happening in the behind the scenes. They couldn't say, yeah, I felt manipulated. Yeah, I feel exploited. They took away my win. This situation I was in, caused me physical harm. Couldn't talk about those things. And that is how I think ANTM was able to get away with this stuff over and over and over again because they couldn't even shine a light on what's going on with them.

Natalie Roberman (32:21)

So one of the things that was interesting in the Netflix documentary is that Tyra did participate. According to the documentary's creators, she agreed to sit for an interview at the last minute. At least as far as I See it, she does not come off well. But, I mean, what was your impression of Tyra and what she had to say for herself in this documentary?

Bridget Armstrong (32:43)

Well, I think it was inadequate. Right. I think Tyra was sticking to her talking points, to be honest. So in our research for the podcast, we were trying to figure out, like, how does Tyra feel about all of the criticism? And so we went back and found different interview she did around 2020. Right. And she had the same talking points then that she had in Netflix docu series. So it was a different time then. Right? That's a big one. Tyra likes to point to that a lot of the things that happened on antm, especially the early seasons, were socially acceptable in the early 2000s. Right. So that's one. I thought I was doing the right thing. My intention particularly talking about the, like, race swap challenges. She was saying she thought she was doing the right thing and showing the beauty to other people. But nowadays when we see it, it's not right. But I thought I was doing something that would elevate diversity. Right. So for me, knowing that she's doing this Netflix docu series, and of course all of these questions are going to come up, but for you to have had six years to really think about your answers and to really reflect on the things that people are saying about your show and the harm it caused, for you to still have the same talking points, to me just showed a real lack of remorse. I don't think Tyra's sorry. I think that's what it is. I think we keep wanting her to be sorry and we feel like she should be sorry because some of us are even sorry for watching. Right. Like, some of us are sorry for encouraging some of the behavior. And a lot of us have a different feeling about the stuff that we saw. Like, a lot of us don't think it's okay or we don't think it's funny or talking about something like the Shandy situation. We clearly, we have a better understanding of assault and consent. So we expect Tyra to also, like, have come to those same conclusions. Right. But I don't. I don't know what conclusion she's come to, but I do think she is not actually sorry. And so that then made me think, why would she do this docu series? Like, if you don't have anything new to say, But I think the tease we got at the end is the answer. Tyra has something to promote. And when she said season 25 coming soon, I said, oh, okay, that's. That's why? Because I do think Tyra has a really unique understanding of what entertains audiences and what keeps the conversation going. I was like, maybe Tyra does get that, like, what she's saying is bullshit and it's not a real apology and she's not accountable. And maybe she knows that's gonna keep sparking conversation. Right. Like, she knows that makes people angry. She knows we're gonna talk about it even more.

Vanessa (35:13)

Right.

Natalie Roberman (35:13)

I mean, it's very P.T. barnum. Like, all publicity is good publicity. But it's really difficult because Tyra is somebody. If I look back at her career, there's no doubt she definitely had to overcome a lot. The most generous reading of watching the show is that Tyra is trying to prepare the girls for the harsh experiences she's had in the fashion industry and toughen them up so that they can succeed. But I think more often than not, looking back at it now, one gets the feeling that she's kind of being harsher to the girls or hazing them. Even the race swap episodes where she essentially put contestants in blackface and various other sorts of faces. I mean, Tyra's defense is that she was expanding the idea of beauty. You make the point in your podcast that actually the racial stereotypes continued throughout the entire series. We've referred to it already like, oh, that person had the. Had the angry black girl edit. And I think that's part of what is so difficult about America's Next Top Model and about Tyra is that at the same time as she is breaking down racial barriers in fashion, she's also upholding some really upsetting and harmful stereotypes.

Bridget Armstrong (36:32)

Absolutely. I think it really gets at the crux of Tyra's complicated legacy. Early last year, so when we were just starting on production on the podcast, Tyra got an award from Essence from Essence magazine, and it was like a luminary award. And she gave this speech and she talked about how she had to fight for diversity on A and T M. Right. When people did not think that the girl from the hood could be a model. Right. But people didn't think that plus size models could be supermodels. Right. You guys have no idea how hard we fought to bring the diversity to that television show at a time where it didn't exist to show different beauties at a time when the world was like, what you casting that? And what. And what is that? And Tyra, actually, she refers to that also in the Netflix doc Ken Mock Daz too, they talk about having this argument with a CBS exec who didn't want a Latina model on the first season. Right. Like, these fights were real. So I think all of that happening to her is what sort of sparked her to want to make sure that ANTM was diverse. But the problem is she also wanted a hugely successful show. Right. She says it in the Netflix doc. She said that ANTM was her payback to these people in the fashion industry that treated her poorly. Like, you have a magazine, but I have a TV show. But in order to keep doing that TV show, it has to be really successful. And one of the things I think, and it appeals to people now, but it very much appealed to people in the early 2000s, racial stereotypes. Tyra is not like the only person on reality TV who played into this. It played out on scripted television as well. Right. It's a sort of low hanging fruit that allows people to identify characters and then try to understand where the story is going. We spoke with black women who came on the show thinking that they would be treated with care because Tyra's a black woman, because she knows what it's like. Ebony Haight. Ebony got a terrible, angry black woman edit. And she says that she expected the rest of the world to react to her in a certain way, but she didn't expect it from Tyra.

Natalie Roberman (38:46)

So there's another documentary about America's next top bottle, Dirty Rotten Scandal, coming out starting March 11th. What do you think we can expect?

Bridget Armstrong (38:56)

You hear from the models a lot more, right? I don't think the Netflix doc is that kind to Tyra, but it's definitely not kind to her. In our docu series, you'll hear from some of the same models that were on the podcast. You get to see their lives now, but they share how their time on the show had a negative impact on their lives. There's also some really great archival, I think, of Tyra that puts you back into who she was in the late 90s, early 2000s, when she was making this career transition and why she was willing to go as far as she did.

Natalie Roberman (39:30)

Thank you so much, Bridget, for talking to us. Bridget's podcast is called Curse of America's Next Top Model. And you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Where can people find you?

Bridget Armstrong (39:39)

Well, you can follow me on Instagram. Bridget Armstrong, underscore. That's pretty much it.

Natalie Roberman (39:46)

Perfect. All right. And will we see you on America's Next top model, cycle 25, please.

Bridget Armstrong (39:51)

If I. I just want to come on like a guest judge. Maybe. I don't know.

Natalie Roberman (39:57)

We're too old. That's one thing I learned is you have to be freaking 19. Yeah.

Bridget Armstrong (40:02)

You have to be a child.

Natalie Roberman (40:03)

You know, you have to be 60.

Bridget Armstrong (40:05)

Yeah. To be on the show you have to be a child. But, you know, on the last seasons there was like a woman in her 40s who was on season 24. So maybe we have a chance. Maybe it'll be like all ages. All. We'll have 90 old top models this time.

Natalie Roberman (40:21)

Maybe that will be the gimmick. Stay tuned. That's it for infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at natrobe. That's n a t r o b e. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book Blurred Lines Rethinking Sex, power and consent on campus. See you next week.