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- [00:00]
A
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B
Campside Media hello everybody. Welcome back to Infamous. Thank you so much for listening to our show. So there's been so much in the news recently about Jeffrey Epstein and his connection to a coterie of rich and powerful men. The former president of Harvard, Larry Summers, Jess Staley, the CEO of Barclays Medical influencer guy Peter Attia. Now, Epstein was a sexual abuser. He was the kind of person who should be shunned by the 1%. But it just doesn't seem like these guys may have cared too much about that and certainly not enough to cut ties with him. And they may or may not have agreed with a lot of Epstein's ideas, too. So this week we're going to be talking about some of those ideas. Now, Epstein was obviously somewhat illiterate. If you look at his emails, they're just filled with typos. But he also believed in eugenics. He thought he could potentially create a master race by spreading his seed on his ranch in New Mexico. He even reportedly funded a scientist's work on a dating app that matched people according to their genes. In terms of academia, where Epstein really made inroads, where he donated money, was the the science community. And actually, he said he was interested in bankrolling scientists because he wanted to know a lot more about physics or quantum theory. But when you really look at what he was interested in, it's clear he was interested in New Age thought and the way that consciousness works. He funded a lot of neuroscience things that made him feel significant and helped him ask big questions of the world. And some of that he was probably genuinely interested in and others of it. He probably thought he just wanted people to think he was smart by asking these questions. And this is a bit of a late breaking story in the Epstein files. The way that he interacted with new age thought or what we call wellness. And you know, we're really interested in that on this show. If we're going to consider what is infamous in American culture today, you just cannot ignore wellness. So that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Epstein's connection to one of the lions of the wellness space, Deepak Chopra. Now, Deepak Chopra was made huge by Oprah. He was a spiritual advisor to celebrities including Michael Jackson. And he had some great things to say about healthy living. But he also, in my opinion, took things a bit too far. For example, he tweeted that an emerging view alternate to Darwin's random mutations and natural selection is that consciousness may be the driver of complexity and evolution. I mean, if you're not sure about Darwinism, I don't know what to say about you in 2026. So we're going to talk about why Epstein and his friends were so interested in this idea of consciousness, why the elite has embraced wellness culture so much, and how this whole scandal has affected Deepak Chopra. Because the emails that have come out between Epstein and Chopra are bad, real bad. Chopra says things like, I'm giving a speech in Switzerland. Epstein, you should come visit with your quote girls. It's all gross but very interesting. And we're going to get into it now. From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media. This is infamous. And I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis.
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A
I'm Natalie Robomed.
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B
So Deepak Chopra, the wellness guru, is all over the Epstein files. Jeffrey Epstein and Deepak interacted thousands of times over a three year period from 2016 to 2019. They talked about everything, it seems. They talked about consciousness. They talked about President Trump, they talked about dogs.
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A
Messages suggest that Chopra visited Epstein at Epstein's New York City townhouse, his South Florida home, and a Paris apartment.
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B
So, yeah, they were bantering about topics as spirituality, health, wellness, mutual friends. Deepak would express his warmth and affection towards Epstein by signing some messages. Love or even xo even telling him once, I'm deeply grateful for our friendship. And if you've taken a gander into the Epstein files or you've been watching the news, you know, a lot of the banter between these powerful men and Jeffrey Epstein is unsavory in the extreme. But Here they talk about, hey, can you introduce me to a cute Israeli girl? They say things like, God is a construct. Cute girls are real.
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A
There's even a text exchange between Deepak and Epstein where Deepak says, sending love. And Epstein responds, can you send it in female form?
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B
Right. And this is a relationship that seems like it developed after Epstein was already convicted in Florida for soliciting prostitution of a minority. But Deepak has denied any involvement in criminal conduct. He's also put out a statement which Natalie is going to read now.
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A
Deepak's statement said, I am deeply saddened by the suffering of the victims in this case and I unequivocally condemn abuse and exploitation in all forms. I want to be clear. I was never involved in nor did I participate in any criminal or exploitative conduct. Any contact I had was limited and unrelated to abusive activity. Some past email exchanges have surfaced that reflect poor judgment and tone. I regret that and understand how they read today, given what was publicly known at the time. My focus remains on supporting accountability, prevention, and efforts that protect and support survivors.
- [06:56]
B
Right. So that's what he said. So this week we have on Matthew Rimsky, who is a fascinating thinker about spirituality in our current culture and what it all really means. Why are people following all these guys and what are these guys really made of? Matthew has a podcast entitled Conspirituality. I love that title. And he is going to talk to us about Deepak Chopra now.
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C
The latest release of the Epstein files include names of many of the world's most rich and powerful. A prominent San Diego figure is listed over 4000 times. Bestselling author and wellness guru Deepak Chopra. Thousands of documents reveal his longtime correspondence with Epstein over the years.
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A
And now UC San Diego has said
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C
Chopra's affiliation with that university will be ending in June.
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B
So, Matthew, what is your general thought on Deepak? Who is somebody that I think if you are maybe under, let's say 35 or 40, might not be somebody that you realize was such a big presence, like a Jay Shetty or Andrew Huberman level presence in culture?
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C
Well, he is an 80s and 90s and then 2000s giant, to be sure. And I think that happens through a convergence of a number of factors, including a big, huge boost from Oprah in the beginning of his career and his capacity to mobilize a kind of positive, but also, I would say, futuristic orientalism in his own favor. And he does that through this sort of mishmash of what he calls the Vedic sciences, plus a lot of pseudo scientific and woo terminology. Like quantum healing, that he uses to sort of update the ancientness of things while also authenticating it through his deep cultural roots or, you know, that's the way he presents them.
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A
We're going to do this experiment to prove how powerful the mind is.
- [09:13]
C
Hold this string between your thumb and your forefinger. Rest it comfortably. I'll hold it still. His main hook, I think, was the promulgation of a very old folk medicine form within India called Ayurveda, which is kind of like a perfect content vehicle for him. And it resonates with his own alienation from medical science, which, you know, occurred at a certain point. After working as a busy doctor for many years. He had this conversion experience with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Guy, the founder of tm. And I think that moment really catalyzed this way in which he could express a kind of alienation from medical science that resonated with, you know, a broader public alienation from clinical spaces, which came to be seen as sites of bodily discipline and control, of artificial interventions, and a kind of general discomfort with the growing complexity of modern medicine and the modern state. But it was clothed in this very rich, ornate echo of Orientalist radiance.
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A
And just to go back a second, what is tm? For those who don't know, I'm in la, so I know. But for those who don't know, well,
- [10:35]
C
TM is the primary practice methodology of the lineage of the Maharishi. So it's. The long form is Transcendental Meditation. I think that you can't really know that much about it until you've been initiated into it, because everybody allegedly receives a particular or unique mantra from the sort of transmission lineage going back to Mahesh and whoever he attributes his authority to. And the mantra itself is supposed to be attuned to sort of your unique karmic circumstance within the world. And this mantra, if you recite it with earnestness and with great dedication, it will help you unpack that.
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A
When I first heard about Transcendental Meditation, which is something that a lot of people in LA practice, there are centers here. I thought that you were given a personalized mantra in English that was something that was, like, specific to you and like the struggles that you were going through. And then I came to learn that it's actually Sanskrit sounds.
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C
My understanding is that there are many, many, many Sanskrit mantras that are available, and they might, you know, sort of belong to categories. I think it would be hard for everyone to have some kind of authentic and unique one specific to Themselves that comes out of the literature. I think they would have to be made distinctly for the person. But of course we don't know whether they're made or not or how many are repeated because, you know, that's all supposed to be secret. But. Yeah. The general sense is that the repetition of the positive or aspirational saying is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy that begins to change the way you see yourself or the way you see a particular situation. It might give a sense of mental and emotional stabilization through those two periods of the day. David lynch was a big fan, right?
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A
Yeah.
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C
And he said that it settled him and that it gave him some kind of insight into his unconscious. And I'm sure it does all of that. What I want to emphasize is that it's extraordinarily simple. Right? But the thing about the wellness and new age spirituality world is that it can take extraordinarily simple techniques or ideas and mystify them beyond all recognition to the point where, you know, you can't get the proper TM mantra unless you take the course and pay for the thing.
- [12:58]
A
You pay $500 for the course.
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C
Yes, exactly. He's offering simple instructions for mental or emotional relaxation. They're incredibly simple. And he does not deserve to become an oligarch because of that. And if he becomes an oligarch who's hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein because of incredibly simple things pretty much anybody could come up with and aren't worth that much, then there's something wrong. There's something wrong. I mean, if he, if he was really interested in, you know, world peace or, or any of these people, if they were really interested in public service, let's say they would give these techniques away. But they will often say when challenged, well, you know, Americans only value things that they pay for. There has to be an investment. And if there isn't an investment, then they're not really going to value it. And fair enough, but it's a very self serving argument.
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A
So you mentioned quantum healing. What is that?
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C
It's literally nothing. Like it's a magic phrase, but it conceals a very key root idea within the Chopra universe, which is that consciousness heals material conditions, which is the opposite of what's actually true. Right. Like, I mean, I'm a materialist. I believe that consciousness is downstream of biological processes. I believe that religion and spirituality are downstream of material conditions. It does not make sense. And it does. It's not shown to be true except in very small amounts in psychological tests that positive thinking turns around your tumor form formation. That's just not really what happens.
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A
If you think yourself better, you'll get better.
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C
Yeah. It's the secret. It's a course in miracles. It's Christian Science. I feel a little bit bad about sounding so cynical about it, because I don't want to downplay the incredible comfort that spiritual practice and religious life will give to people who are in suffering. That is absolutely essential. It's at the center of people's lives. But what this crowd wants to do is they want to be both priests and doctors at the same time. And you can't really do that. Those languages don't intersect very well.
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A
Well, it's not just priest and doctor. It's priest, doctor and CEO at the same time.
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C
Yes, exactly.
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D
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C
so the idea was, which has obsessed me for 30 years, that there's no physical reality, that it's a construct in our imagination or in our being or in our consciousness. In the same way as money is, in the same way as Wall street is, in the same way as latitude and longitude is, in the same way as Greenwich Meantime is, in the same way as nation states are, in the same way as our identity, ethnic, religious or whatever it all exists.
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A
Deepak first came to my consciousness through. Through Oprah. And I mean, Oprah, I have to say, really did give us a lot of these people. I mean, you mentioned the secret. She really popularized the secret.
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C
Yeah, she's. She totally did.
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A
The Oprah bump is really real. I mean, she brought Deepak Chopra to. To the masses.
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C
She did, and she did so at a very particular time. And so I just want to zoom out a little bit and talk about the public project of social care and public health. I don't think you get promises going viral for quantum healing unless you already have a population that has said, well, I guess we can't expect to really have any kind of reform of this predatory medical insurance racket that we're all subject to and that is killing us. Actually, I think that it is very important to recognize that Deepak Chopras and the wellness industry more broadly, that their promise of. Of pseudoscientific healing is really the last kind of promise that. That an economy can make to people that it doesn't want to care for.
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A
So you're saying that the. The rise of these kind of promise of these gurus and the wellness industry in general is happening as people are receiving worse and worse health care or coming to realize that they actually can't rely on the government for health care or that they will be the victim of predatory insurance.
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C
Yes. The wellness industry and this new spirituality that grows up to support it really kind of places its blessing on these economic conditions. It says, you know, there is nobody to really take care of you, and that's fine because you have the power of quantum healing within you. Chopra really serves this pivot from a kind of social model of human life that people are earnestly working on in prior ages to really the self project. You know, how can I optimize this
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A
framing of the self is what really allows for wealth to coexist at the same time as spiritual advancement. Jay Shetty is really kind of all about this where, you know, in previous times, other religions, it's sort of like wealth is going to make it harder for you to get into heaven.
- [20:19]
C
Exactly. Right.
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A
No, no, that's not the case here.
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C
You got to flip it around. Exactly, exactly.
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And so, you know, that's what allows Deepak Chopra to pursue these friendships with lots of wealthy celebrities, including Michael Jackson and wealthy businessmen like Epstein.
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C
The wealthy of the neoliberal class needs spirituality constantly that makes them feel okay about what they're doing. I think there's nothing better than the sort of Jay Shetty, Deepak Chopra Sort of vibe, deregulate your consciousness, expand your, your mind and your markets.
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A
Free market consciousness.
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C
Exactly. Free. It's. That's what, that's what it is. You know, dissolve all constructs like borders and in Epstein's case, the age of consent. And really, because everything is consciousness, so too is money. And what you really want it to do is to flow freely. And then if you can additionally on top of that, adopt this sense or this feeling that you're floating above any kind of consequence of that, that the consequences of your consumption or your position at the top of the class struggle, if they're disturbing to you, if you can feel as though they're illusory at the same time, and all you've done is really activate higher levels of consciousness, then. Then you'll feel great.
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B
You were previously somebody who was a yoga practitioner. You did have a connection with Michael
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C
Roach, Prosperity gospel Buddhist.
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B
Right. But the question to you is, when you first saw the Epstein files coming out and you saw the way that religion and science were being mixed up with, you know, rampant capitalism, what was your thought going through those emails, which I am sure you spent some time in?
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C
I did. I can't say that I was that surprised because, you know, if you have your own history in New York yoga in the early 2000s, and you were practicing beside hedge fund bros, then you know that these worlds overlap. You know that yoga and wellness and alternative health and new age spirituality are often leisure class activities. And if they offer some kind of, you know, special insight into your personal development or special edge to your capacities, then all the better. So when I see it, I can also, like visualize very clearly what kind of services and insights Epstein, who I think was a shrewd consumer of this stuff, was interested. And I say that he's a shrewd consumer because, like, there's one email exchange where he's talking about the, you know, scientific claims that are being made by hot yoga people and whether or not they're bullshit. He's a very pragmatic person when it comes to this stuff. I think he's very, very interested in, like, how can I optimize my body ostensibly so that he can continue abusing people for the rest of his life or for. Until he's an old man. So I have this very clear sense of a skeptical guy who is coming to the new age celebrity authority and is saying, you know, what can you tell me about consciousness or about meditation? And of course, Deepak obliges because why would this not be a sign of the Success and the great divine expansion of your own message when this incredibly powerful person takes an interest in you.
- [23:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that what is fascinating about Deepak's role in the Epstein files, obviously the past month or so in in the US has been spent looking through all of these emails and various prominent men losing their positions of power. They always seem to make the same statement, which is, you know, I did not participate in any abuse. I had only limited contact with, with this person. Right. But when you look at the thousands of emails between Deepak Chokra and Jeffrey Epstein, he does seem to be having a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein across multiple fronts. So they are interested in spirituality, they're interested in science, and they're talking about women. Also, these emails always, it's really like these people who just breathe a different air, right? They're always just telling each other, like, I'll be in New York on the 12th, I'm on my way to Milan and after that to Davos, and then I'll be back in Florida or whatever it is. It's just apprising people of what your peregrinations around the globe are, which is like a very. Being somebody who doesn't like planes or to travel, I'm like, wow, this seems not so fun to be one of the 1% on a plane constantly at the. Maybe they're on private planes, I don't know. You know, they're talking about what is a construct. Right? Cells are human constructs. No such thing. Universe is a human construct. No such thing. Cute girls are aw. When they make noises. This is Deepak to Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein says, thank God. And then Deepak responds, God is a construct, which, wow, okay. Surprising to hear him say that cute girls are real. Jeffrey Epstein says, so when the girl says, oh my God, Deepak Chopra writes, yes, that's divine transcendence. And Jeffrey Epstein dispensary disgustingly says, oh, I thought she was just referring to me.
- [25:50]
C
There's a lot going on in that exchange. And I just want to point out that it takes the sort of form of almost like a Zen koan dialogue between master and student. And when you're surprised by God as a construct, this comes after a number of deconstructed statements or instructions about the sort of reality of things. So remember that like his entire philosophy, which is supposed to be non dualistic or, you know, you can't really make substantial distinctions between anything. All of those distinctions are actually in your mind and the way in which you make those distinctions actually determines whether or not you're suffering or whether or not you're going to see divine bliss. So at the end of the line of all of these things are constructs, he says God is a construct. And that's central in his non dual philosophy. Because eventually what you're meant to recognize is that you yourself are indistinguishable from God or the essence of God or the divine. God is a construct in the sense that if you're using that word to indicate something that is outside of you or beyond you, you're deluded. Because actually that's not what reality is. We've made up the word God so that we can alienate our ourselves from our own divine birthright. And so God is a construct. But then he turns around and he says, cute girls are real or cute girls are aware when they make noises. And that is a part of or a reference to a kind of tantric philosophy in which the person who has attained the realization that God is a construct and feels their own divinity, they are then free. That's not like everybody realizes that. At the same time, this is a special person who comes into that awareness. And if they're aware of that, then they can enjoy girls, you know, from this divine perspective. Right. So that's what he's kind of telling Geoffrey that they are in on, which is we are floating above humanity and we are plucking the flowers and the girls of the world for our own personal enjoyment. And everything else is kind of meaningless. And this is a dance of bliss. And yeah, you're right to be disgusted because it's probably like. It's probably the grossest thing that you could use to make yourself feel. Feel better about being an abuser.
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A
You know, we're having a pretty lofty discussion about non dualism, but this is just disgusting.
- [28:26]
C
Yeah.
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A
To me, to hear this, it's just gross. It's just gross, you know?
- [28:32]
C
Right. I think one of the primary things that non dualism does for people like Deepak Chopra and Jeffrey Epstein is it removes from them the burden of having to think about people of different classes. Right. If everything is non dual, if everything is connected, then, you know, in some respect, even the people that they're exploiting are part of this great play. This great Maya is the word that they use.
- [28:59]
A
There's this imessage exchange that really stayed with me, released by the justice department that is from March 2019. And Epstein texts Deepak saying, I'm in New York Monday. If not face to face, let's Skype. I think of you often. I Am aware of the toxicity of my press. And Deepak at first responds, who is this? And then Jeffrey says, jeffrey. And then Deepak says, sorry, I'm not concerned about that. Let's connect, mostly by WhatsApp. I think we should meditate together. He's just sort of saying, I'm not really worried about your bad press.
- [29:30]
C
I think he's signaling that he's not only remaining loyal and that he, you know, is not going to get too invested in the bad press. He's also suggesting that his value in Epstein's life is that he can help him internally transcend these tensions. Right. If the article is causing any kind of hurt inside, if it's getting to his fifis, then Chopra and meditation will maybe be able to resolve the great karmic knot that has presented itself in front of his path. So I find it an interesting exchange because Chopra, obviously there and a hundred other times would be able to say, dude, you're gross and I don't want to talk to you anymore. But he doesn't. He goes farther than that, even. I can be kind of a therapist to you in relation to whether or not you're disturbed by all of this chatter from the chattering classes.
- [30:32]
A
Well, and what it makes me think is, okay, he's perhaps offering this sort of help to Epstein, saying, let's meditate together. Is he offering that same help to any alleged victims of Epstein? Or maybe any of the girls who were in the 2008 court case in Florida that happened 11 years before that? You know?
- [30:53]
C
No, no, no, no.
- [30:54]
A
If I had to assume it would be about power and who has. Who has access to power. But perhaps this shouldn't be surprising, because Deepak himself had his own claim of. Of sexual harassment. Chopra denied that accusation, saying that the people attacking him were trying to extort money from him with lies. Quote, I look at these people as hyenas after my blood and marrow just because they think I have money, said Chopra, whose yearly income has been estimated at $15 million. And that quote is from a March 2000 LA Times article.
- [31:39]
C
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- [32:02]
B
close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're Carrying today? Well, I'm letting go of the worry
- [32:11]
A
that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.
- [32:13]
B
I got them delivered from free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh. They're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry.
- [32:19]
A
I almost couldn't breathe when I saw
- [32:21]
B
the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.
- [32:26]
A
Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order, 1-800-contacts. So, as we've been discussing, Deepak was not just a spiritual guru. He was a businessman, too. A 2023 Inc. Magazine article detailed all the aspects of Deepak Chopra's empire. In addition to dozens of books with titles such as Ageless Body, Timeless Mind, and you Are the Universe, Deepak Chopra also founded a company that sold consumer products based on his wellness principles. Now called Chopra Global, the company has offered everything from ayurvedic supplements to holistic health retreats starting at around 6,000 for five days to a $350 pair of dream Master meditation glasses that came equipped with flashing colored LED lights and earbuds for listening to Chopra's incantations. In March 2023, Deepak sold Chopra Global to a conglomerate called the healing company in a deal estimated to net him $20 million.
- [33:34]
B
So UC San Diego has said that Chopra has a contract that will be ending relatively soon. He most likely will not be working with them after that. What are the ramifications for Chopra here? And more generally, what does this scandal tell us about the state of spiritual gurus in the U.S. is Oprah going to have a reckoning? Are we going to Hear more about Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, John of God? Where do you see this all going?
- [34:06]
C
Well, my own tinfoil hat on Chopra's fate is that his name is unredacted, not only because there are no clear criminal allegations against him that we know of yet as to the files we have, but I also think he's kind of expendable to the Arlo Carte class. I know that he's launching an AI companion to his body of work where he's sort of putting all of these written assets and videos and so on, and he's going to charge people a subscription price so that they can have access to sort of Deepak AI. And I think this is a perfect ending for a guy who has basically been his own LLM quote generator for decades. But I think that people will definitely replace him with similar content, but I don't think that they'll have the longevity. I do think that he was Dominant in a way that spoke to his early mastery of online marketing platforms. But those marketing platforms are now available to everybody. Right. The career of chopra is maybe 30 years, maybe 35 years or something like that. Andrew Huberman is going to last for not as long. And there's going to be more turnover, too. Right. Because we're not really sort of in big influencer territory anymore. It's a much more competitive market. Many more people have access to the same sorts of tools that Chopra made his millions on.
- [35:37]
A
What about the Oprah of it all? I mean, she has brought us everyone from Dr. Phil to Dr. Oz to Deepak Chopra to John of God. I mean, does Oprah have something to answer for herself?
- [35:53]
C
She certainly does. I don't think she will. I think that she's really a cultural pillar for white liberal America. And I think that she's too big to fail in that way. I think she's too symbolically integrated with the Democratic Party intelligentsia. I think she has more money than God. Many people know what she's done, but she's not going anywhere. I think she can keep chugging on. I don't see a big reckoning for Oprah. It would have happened a long, long time ago. Like people have said for a long time, what the hell were you doing thinking that John of God was a good idea when he was, you know, extracting tadpoles out of somebody's abdomen? And you said that it was, you know, Jesus, what were you doing? People have brought it up for far too long for it to make a difference now, I think.
- [36:48]
B
Thank you so much, Matthew, for coming on to talk to us about this. Everybody should check out. Conspirituality, which is Matthew's unbelievably intelligent and incisive podcast has been going on for a long, long time. And there's so many episodes there that you can listen to. Matthew, tell us a little bit more about what else you're up to and maybe other places people can find you.
- [37:11]
C
Yeah, I mean, my story with good spirituality continues, but it was really about researching for me the rise fascism through these instruments of wellness, culture and yoga and new spirituality, not per se, but as cultural influences. And so I've got another podcast. It's called Antifascist dad. And I've got a book coming out of the same title that's in April.
- [37:37]
B
Amazing. Thank you so much.
- [37:43]
A
That's it for Infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Natrobe. That's N A T R O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book, Blurred Rethinking Sex, Power, and Consent on Campus. See you next week.
- [38:23]
B
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