Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (1:38)

Okay. And there was a man behind me, pressing into me. How did you know it was a man?

Gwyneth Paltrow (1:44)

Because he was making some strange noises that sounded male and he was large, so I assumed it was a male.

Ben Shepard (1:54)

Okay.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (1:54)

He was large.

Gwyneth Paltrow (1:56)

I felt all my back pressing.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (1:59)

Okay. All right. There was a man pressing behind me, pressing into me. I was extremely upset.

Gwyneth Paltrow (2:10)

Well, I was confused at first, and I didn't know exactly what was happening. It's a very strange thing to happen on the ski slope.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (2:19)

A very strange thing indeed. And obviously with Gwyneth being so Gwyneth, it seems like she's just the type of person who would think someone crashed into her when it's the reverse. A person who doesn't like taking blame.

Ben Shepard (2:40)

From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media. This is infamous. I'm Natalie Robomed.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (2:46)

And I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis.

Ben Shepard (2:48)

And this is episode two of our series, Murder on the Ski Slope Express.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (2:55)

Something I haven't talked about yet. I was actually supposed to write a story about Gwyneth Paltrow for Vanity Fair a number of years ago.

Ben Shepard (3:02)

What was your story about?

Vanessa Grigoriadis (3:03)

Okay, so I got a call from Vanity Fair, and the editor said, we really want to put Gwyneth on the COVID but she just won't do it. Okay. And you should go write a story about her. And it would be about, like, do you love Gwyneth Paltrow, or do you hate Gwyneth Paltrow? And I said, okay, well, that's interesting. But, you know, obviously, I want to talk to her, and I definitely want to talk to people around her, so, you know, give me the contact. And they were like, no, you should definitely not call her. So I said, give me the contact.

Ben Shepard (3:34)

And did they?

Vanessa Grigoriadis (3:36)

Yeah, they gave me the contact. And they said, you know what, Vanessa? Knock yourself out. And I was like, all right, thank you. So I called up the contact for Gwyneth Paltrow, and, oh, no.

Ben Shepard (3:49)

I've been there. Keep going.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (3:51)

He gets on the phone with me, and I explained, we would like to put Gwyneth Paltrow on the COVID of the magazine. And he said, well, we already said no to this. And I said, well, she's gonna go on the COVID no matter what. So I really think we should, you know, we should collaborate. And he said to me, I know exactly what your piece is about. And I said, well, what would that be? And he said, your piece is Gwyneth Paltrow. Love her or hate her. And you're gonna end on, you should hate her. Oh, this is like a moment in time that I wish I could go back to, because I thought to myself so many times, I should have just said, no, it's love her or hate her, but we're gonna say love her, which is what I actually thought we would do. That would be, like, the best way to do this story, right?

Ben Shepard (4:36)

That would be the counterintuitive way. Yeah.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (4:38)

Right. And I didn't know what to say, and I said, no, that's not my story. And so the next is. I called up, you know, a few people I knew that sort of knew Gwyneth, including a socialite, and she's telling me a story about the girls school that they went to. And halfway through the story, she says, you know, I feel like I should ask Gwyneth if I can really tell you these stories. And I said, yeah, well, knock yourself out. Go ask her. And so I get a call back from her five minutes later, and she said, oh, my God, Vanessa, I cannot even tell you what just happened. Gwyneth just emailed her entire address book that nobody should talk to Vanity Fair. She emailed her entire address book, but she Also forgot to BCC people. So it's like Cameron Diaz and all these different people. And it's like Gwyneth Paltrow says, I am not going to participate with this Vanity Fair profile and none of you should ever talk to this magazine again. And I was like, oh, my God, now I've messed up the magazine. In any case, it turned into a major sort of, like, war between the magazine. I was really just like a peon. Nobody really thought about me. Between the magazine and Gwyneth, of course, they made up eventually. But the incredible thing about this whole story is through this period of time, Gwyneth was getting divorced. And so she thought that we were gonna report her divorce and her conscious uncoupling without her approval. We just wanted to sell some magazines.

Ben Shepard (6:18)

With you on the COVID Right, right, right, right.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (6:21)

So it was sort of like a semi comedy of errors. At first I thought she was super annoying for not wanting to do the story, obviously. But once I found out about the divorce, I got it. Like, I wouldn't have talked to me either. And, you know, it turns out that GWY actually has a lot of reasons for why she acts the way she does.

Ben Shepard (6:40)

Yeah. And we're going to get into all that later, but first we need to talk about Terry Sanderson. He's the person suing Gwyneth for a lot of money, and he seems so sympathetic. Terry claims the collision left him with four broken ribs, a concussion, and lasting brain damage. But little by little, we start learning new things about Terry Sanderson. Like, right after the crash, he sent his daughters a curious message, and the.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (7:11)

Subject said, I'm famous. Do you see that?

Terry Sanderson (7:14)

I do.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (7:15)

Why did you write I'm famous?

Terry Sanderson (7:18)

You know, again, my head was scrambled. All I was trying to do is desperately communicate with my kids before they heard from somebody else. I got crushed. So I didn't pick my words. Well, not at all how I felt. And I really was trying to add a little levity to a serious situation, and it backfired.

Ben Shepard (7:40)

Now, if you're trying to argue that you were really hurt by a celebrity and that you're not just trying to bring a frivolous lawsuit to get money or fame from that celebrity, this is a really bad look. Gwyneth's lawyers know it.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (7:55)

I'm famous because it's cool that I had a collision with a celebrity. Was that your thinking at the time? And you said yes. Do you deny it?

Terry Sanderson (8:09)

Not if you have it on record, no, I don't deny it. I don't remember it.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (8:13)

Do you recall saying that you agreed that saying I'm famous was a crazy thing to say.

Terry Sanderson (8:21)

Agree, absolutely. It's not me, it's. I don't buy into that.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (8:26)

But it was you, right? Just to be clear, when you say it wasn't me, it. It was in fact you.

Terry Sanderson (8:33)

It's the other personality that's inhabiting my body right now.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (8:37)

And you blame Gwyneth Paltrow for that?

Terry Sanderson (8:40)

Yes. No question.

Ben Shepard (8:42)

You see, Terry says the brain damage permanently impacted his personality.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (8:47)

You told me about three near death experiences after the collision. True?

Terry Sanderson (8:54)

I did, yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (8:55)

Is that right?

Terry Sanderson (8:56)

I didn't know I'd taken Tramadol. I took just the oxycontin that I had for my ribs, actually my ribs being broken from the ski accident.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:03)

And you blame Ms. Paltrow for all three of those near death experiences after. True.

Terry Sanderson (9:08)

I don't know if I see you.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:09)

Are you claiming it right now in this lawsuit?

Terry Sanderson (9:12)

Yes. Very unusual for me not to make.

Ben Shepard (9:15)

Good decision medical decisions, but Terry seems to have been well enough to travel.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (9:21)

Terry, you've been shown lots of pictures about all the different travels that you've done after the ski accident. Why did you travel?

Terry Sanderson (9:31)

It was part of the healing process. I was told by several neurologists and cognitive therapists. Get back to your routine.

Ben Shepard (9:39)

That healing process was pretty extensive.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:43)

Did you go to Peru?

Terry Sanderson (9:44)

Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:46)

Floated down the Amazon?

Terry Sanderson (9:49)

Yes, I guess so.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:50)

Costa Rica. Did you do a zipline?

Terry Sanderson (9:54)

Same trip? Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (9:55)

Did you go to Europe? Visit Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, France, Belgium.

Terry Sanderson (10:02)

With my daughter Jenny?

Ben Shepard (10:03)

Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:04)

Did you go to the Netherlands? Three times.

Terry Sanderson (10:07)

I don't remember.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:08)

Well, if you're disputing it, then we pull it out of your. Out of your deposition.

Terry Sanderson (10:13)

I. I don't remember. I have no reason to dispute it or agree.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:16)

Okay. Morocco. Twice.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (10:18)

True.

Terry Sanderson (10:21)

Likely. Very likely.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:22)

Canary Islands. I need to know if you're disputing these things.

Terry Sanderson (10:25)

I can't dispute it. No.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:26)

Thailand. Did you go to Thailand after the collision?

Terry Sanderson (10:30)

Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:31)

Did you visit at least the states of Washington, Oregon, Montana and Idaho after the collision?

Gwyneth Paltrow (10:38)

Probably.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:38)

This is you and your girlfriend? Friend. Is that southern Utah hiking?

Terry Sanderson (10:44)

I don't remember where.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:45)

Looks like you have one of those cool backpacks with water on. Is that true?

Terry Sanderson (10:50)

Yes, that's true.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (10:53)

Next 1:52. This is you going on a hike, taking a picture of a moose, right?

Terry Sanderson (10:59)

Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:00)

Nothing like fresh, cool air, a running brook, and easily entertained and hungry. Coming company. That's your. Your personal post. Is that true?

Gwyneth Paltrow (11:10)

Yes.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:10)

Is this you kayaking?

Terry Sanderson (11:12)

No. Absolutely not.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:13)

Oh boy.

Terry Sanderson (11:15)

I was trying on helmets. To protect my head.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:17)

Did you go kaying after the collision?

Terry Sanderson (11:21)

I don't remember that. But this was not it. This was in a local.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:25)

It's a whole different question. Let's ignore the picture.

Terry Sanderson (11:27)

Thank you.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:27)

Did you kayak after the collision?

Terry Sanderson (11:31)

No, I don't think so.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:33)

All right, you went scuba diving, right?

Terry Sanderson (11:37)

What year after?

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:39)

I don't even care what year after the collision.

Terry Sanderson (11:41)

I did go sometime after. Yeah.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (11:44)

You went to an auto show in Germany. Does this sound right?

Advertisement Narrator (11:50)

This time of year can be tough. The holidays are near and they're supposed to feel joyful. But for so many, they bring stress around. Food, weight and body image. That's why hers is here, to support your journey so you can feel your best. Weight loss by hers is realistic, not restrictive. If prescribed, you get medication as part of a doctor developed weight loss program, complete with ongoing care check ins, dosage and medication adjustments, and access to 24. 7 online support at no additional cost, no hidden fees and no membership fees. Whether you want to lose weight, grow thicker, fuller hair, or find relief for anxiety, hers has you covered. Visit forhers.cominfamous to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's F O r h e r-s.com infamous forhers.com infamous weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased.

Joel Dommet (12:52)

Joel Dommet shall we tell these wonderful people about the new business that we're starting? Good idea, Ben Shepherd. Especially if you want them to come along for the ride. Exactly what we want. Quite simply, we are starting a business. We're starting a brand. This is not going to be a television show. There's no bright lights and makeup. This is very, very real. Ben We've got no idea how to do it, but we are going to share the whole journey with you right here on our brand new podcast, the Businessmen Podcast Out.

Ben Shepard (13:21)

Now, there's this idea in science called quantum superposition. Basically, scientists have discovered that it's actually possible for molecules to be in two places at once. Like the same chunk of matter can be in two completely different locations at one time. This is possible because basically particles can also be waves, like wavelengths you see for sound. And waves occupy multiple places in space at once. As an aside, yes, it's complicated. Upshot being two things can be true at once. And maybe that's what's going on in the ski trial, because maybe Gwyneth is elitist and out of touch and everything she's been accused of being. But maybe Sanderson also is just trying to sue her for fame and money. Maybe GOOP does spread a lot of pseudoscience, but maybe Gwyneth genuinely believes in all of it.

Gwyneth Paltrow (14:27)

I didn't think about it a lot until my father was diagnosed with cancer, and that really changed things for me.

Ben Shepard (14:33)

That's Gwyneth talking on a podcast called the Art of Wellness.

Gwyneth Paltrow (14:38)

And I started realizing that there had to be a connection between what we were eating and what we were exposed to and how that was being expressed through disease.

Ben Shepard (14:50)

Now, I get this. When someone close to you is diagnosed with a really serious illness like cancer, it makes you feel powerless, and you start looking for ways to make sense of it, to feel in control.

Gwyneth Paltrow (15:04)

That's when I started researching whatever I could. This is pre Internet, but, you know, talking people, trying to buy books on nutrition, understand the links between environmental toxins, cancer, HPVs, you know, all that kind of like understanding what led to the creation of disease in our culture. And then past my father, like, why is this so pervasive? And why do we have so much, you know, obesity, depression, type 2 diabetes, you know, and all the things I was observing and just wondering what could be done about it and what were the modalities out there.

Ben Shepard (15:49)

My producer, Lily, is going to read an excerpt from a GOOP newsletter written by Gwyneth that I think is revealing about her mindset.

Gwyneth Paltrow (15:56)

I tried to get my father on board with mixed results. He loved acupuncture but hated macrobiotic food, which he likened to biting into the New York Times.

Ben Shepard (16:09)

Despite all this effort, Gwyneth blamed herself for not doing enough.

Gwyneth Paltrow (16:13)

I wasn't adamant enough in cleaning up his diet and getting rid of the cancer and the radiation. Now I really feel I could have extended his quality of life, but I wasn't as strong as I should have been.

Ben Shepard (16:28)

Now, this isn't an excuse for allegedly spreading misinformation or pseudoscience, but if this is the reason Gwyneth is so evangelical about GOOP and about all the alternative treatments and weird diets she promotes that have no basis in science, it's actually sort of sad. But she also believes something else.

Gwyneth Paltrow (16:49)

We all have so much agency. We don't realize the agency that we have, that we have autonomy over our bodies, what we put into our bodies, the thoughts that we form, the words that we speak. And when we have a certain degree of mastery over ourselves and we embrace that, we can really start to change our lives. And feel really good. We all have this power within us to feel better and to have that kind of agency.

Ben Shepard (17:17)

Gwynedd seems to have a sort of self determinist philosophy that an individual is in control of how they feel. Never mind that this does not at all acknowledge any structural issues that might prevent people from doing so. It's all on you. And maybe, just maybe, this is why she decided to fight Sanderson, why she took it all the way to trial. Because perhaps she believes each individual has agency and should be responsible for their own health rather than suing someone else over it. So who is the victim on the ski slope and who's the villain?

Advertisement Narrator (18:02)

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday work with LifeLok. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply shopping is hard, right? But I found a better way. Stitch Fix online Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want, no subscription required. And he sends just for me pieces plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started today@stitch fix.com Spotify that's stitchfix.com Spotify.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (19:03)

This is infamous from Campside Media.

Ben Shepard (19:06)

So back to Gwyneth on the stand. She told the courtroom that her dad was actually the reason she got into skiing too.

Gwyneth Paltrow (19:14)

My father was. He loved skiing and he had learned later in life. And so he was determined for my brother and I to learn how to ski when we were young. And he used to do these really sweet one on one ski trips with us where he would take us to various destinations and Alto was one of them.

Ben Shepard (19:36)

But those family ski trips were cut short because her dad actually lost his battle to cancer when he was only 58. Gwyneth was just 30 at the time.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (19:48)

You stop skiing for a while?

Gwyneth Paltrow (19:50)

I did. I was pretty devastated by his death and just being in the ski resort and on a chairlift, it was, it was difficult for me. So I avoided it for a few years until I had my own kids. And then I heard his voice in my head thinking I should teach them how to ski.

Ben Shepard (20:15)

It seems as though Being back on those slopes was symbolic for Gwyneth. A way of connecting with her dad, of passing that tradition onto her kids. Actually, not just her kids. Gwyneth was on this trip with her soon to be husband, Brad, and his children.

Gwyneth Paltrow (20:32)

This was a significant trip for us. It was the first time Brad and I were introducing our kids and doing something together as to see if we could blend families.

Ben Shepard (20:42)

So a ski slope was already an emotionally charged place for Gwyneth. And on top of that, when she and Terry collided, she didn't fully understand at first what was happening.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (20:53)

I didn't know if it was an intentional assault of a sexual nature.

Ben Shepard (20:58)

Right.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (20:58)

Was he grinding and thrusting or something, or just the noises? What made you think it was a sexual assault?

Gwyneth Paltrow (21:06)

So my brain was trying to make sense of what was happening. I thought, am I. Is this a practical joke? Is someone, like, doing something perverted? This is really, really strange.

Ben Shepard (21:17)

By the way. Gwyneth has publicly said that she has been sexually harassed. She's one of the many women who have claimed they were victimized by Harvey Weinstein, claims he has denied.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (21:28)

Our bodies were almost spooning, and I moved away quickly.

Ben Shepard (21:32)

Yes.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (21:33)

And my knees splayed open, and I was completely in shock.

Gwyneth Paltrow (21:37)

Yes. When we fell down, I fell on his body. He fell on the ground. And so it was kind of like a spoon on the ground. I said, you skied directly into my effing back. And he said, oh, sorry, sorry. I'm sorry.

Ben Shepard (21:52)

After the collision, her kid's ski instructor, Eric, came over to see Sanderson and Gwyneth.

Gwyneth Paltrow (21:57)

Eric was helping him up and asking if he was okay.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (22:01)

And were you still standing right there when he helped him?

Gwyneth Paltrow (22:03)

I believe I was, yes.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (22:05)

You sure you hadn't skied down a little bit?

Gwyneth Paltrow (22:07)

I might have skied down a little bit. My son was down a little bit, and my now husband came over at some point.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (22:15)

Okay.

Ben Shepard (22:17)

So.

Gwyneth Paltrow (22:17)

And I remember moving away from Mr. Sanderson after he collided into me and we hit the ground.

Ben Shepard (22:23)

Sanderson's lawyers are trying to nail Gwyneth.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (22:25)

For fleeing the scene at the time of the collision. Were you aware of the rule that if you're in a collision, you need to share your name, your contact information with the person that you're involved in a collision with?

Gwyneth Paltrow (22:38)

I don't think I was aware of the rule.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (22:41)

Okay. Were you aware that there is kind of a rule of common decency to do that?

Gwyneth Paltrow (22:49)

I would not have left the scene without leaving my information, and my information was left.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (22:58)

Did you provide that information?

Gwyneth Paltrow (23:01)

No. Eric Christensen, who Was the ski instructor with us, said he would leave all the information.

Ben Shepard (23:07)

Gwyneth says it was just an honest.

Gwyneth Paltrow (23:09)

Mistake because I was hit by Mr. Sanderson and he was at fault. I assumed that Eric, who was our ski instructor, who was there at the time, who was overseeing the event, he said, I'm gonna leave all of your information. And he said, you should go ski down because my kids were waiting for me.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (23:29)

Did you ever ask, hey, how was that guy that ran into the back of me? Is he okay? Did you ever ask anybody from Deer Valley about that?

Gwyneth Paltrow (23:41)

I did not, because at the time, I did not know that he had sustained injuries like that. I thought it was very minor on the day.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (23:49)

And you didn't stick around long enough to find that out?

Gwyneth Paltrow (23:52)

I stuck around long enough for him to say he was okay, to stand up, that he told Mr. Christensen he was okay.

Ben Shepard (24:01)

Suddenly, Gwyneth's apparent lack of concern about Sanderson makes a lot more sense. She didn't know Sanderson had gotten a concussion or broken four ribs because he had stood up and told her kids, ski instructor, he was fine. So she just carried on.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (24:18)

So, Ms. Paltrow, the reason I got involved in this case in the first place was your counterclaim. So I want to talk with you about the counterclaim. Is it true that you feel it's unfair that Mr. Sanderson has brought this case against you?

Gwyneth Paltrow (24:35)

I do.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (24:36)

And you're bringing this claim for $1?

Gwyneth Paltrow (24:40)

I am sorry.

Ben Shepard (24:41)

Sanderson's asking Gwyneth for $3 million, which the judge has lowered to 300,000. Gwyneth's asking him for a dollar.

Advertisement Narrator (24:51)

Okay.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (24:52)

In fact, you're counseled, Steve. Do you still have that dollar bill?

Ben Shepard (24:55)

This is an amazing piece of courtroom theater. One of Sanderson's lawyers gets up and actually waves a $1 bill in the air.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (25:03)

You saw Mr. Owens wave that $1 around, right?

Gwyneth Paltrow (25:07)

I did.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (25:08)

Okay, $1 in symbolic damages. Is that accurate?

Gwyneth Paltrow (25:14)

It's an actual dollar that I'm asking for.

Ben Shepard (25:16)

But this isn't the first time a big name celebrity has pulled this stunt in a courtroom.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (25:21)

You learned about that through Taylor Swift because she asked for $1 in symbolic damages.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (25:26)

Right.

Gwyneth Paltrow (25:27)

And I think I said at that point I had not been familiar with it, but I since am now.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (25:33)

You are. But at the time, a couple Years ago in 2020, you didn't know anything about Taylor Swift's $1 symbolic damage lawsuit.

Ben Shepard (25:41)

Sanderson's lawyer is referring to a lawsuit Taylor Swift brought against a radio host who she said groped her backstage at A meet and greet. Swift won and won $1. And while all that's true, it's a little hard to see why it's relevant.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (25:58)

Are you good friends with Taylor Swift?

Gwyneth Paltrow (26:01)

No. Overruled.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (26:04)

You're not good friends with Taylor Swift?

Gwyneth Paltrow (26:06)

I would not say we're good friends. We are friendly. I take my kids. I've taken my kids to one of her concerts before, but we don't talk very often.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (26:16)

You've never given Ms. Swift personal, intimate gifts for Christmas?

Gwyneth's Lawyer (26:23)

Your Honor, relevance or change? Bench, trial.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (26:28)

Well, she's just said that she wasn't friends with. With her, so I'm inquiring on that.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (26:33)

Ask her about Oprah. I mean.

Terry Sanderson (26:37)

Mr. Owens, sustain, please.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (26:39)

Move on.

Ben Shepard (26:40)

So, technically, Gwyneth is also asking for reimbursement of her attorney's fees.

Gwyneth Paltrow (26:45)

So I guess asking for a dollar for me and then reimbursement of attorneys fees, which is a separate thing.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (26:52)

Don't you think that that's $1? That's a mischaracterization, isn't it?

Gwyneth Paltrow (26:56)

I took it as I would receive that $1, which is all I am asking for.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (27:03)

Ms. Paltrow, isn't it true that you've misrepresented a number of things today to this jury?

Gwyneth Paltrow (27:08)

Absolutely not.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (27:09)

No other questions.

Ben Shepard (27:11)

Then it's Gwyneth's lawyer's turn to question her. And this is where things get interesting.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (27:17)

Do you feel some empathy for Mr. Sanderson and this declining brain?

Gwyneth Paltrow (27:24)

You know, I really do. I feel very sorry for him. It seems like he's had a very difficult life. But I did not cause the accident, so I cannot be at fault for anything that subsequently happened to him.

Ben Shepard (27:38)

This makes me think of Gwyneth's self determination, the individual agency. She feels we all have to help ourselves feel better.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (27:46)

Did Mr. Sanderson hurt you by hitting you?

Gwyneth Paltrow (27:49)

He did.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (27:50)

And please explain.

Gwyneth Paltrow (27:53)

Well, when we fell over, my right knee felt like it had been overstretched and my back hurt.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (28:01)

All right, and you got a massage but did not seek medical care. Is that what I understand?

Gwyneth Paltrow (28:10)

I did not.

Ben Shepard (28:11)

I mean, this is jade egg popping gem healing, detoxifying Gwyneth Paltrow. A massage probably is medical attention to her, even though it makes her sound super out of touch.

Gwyneth Paltrow (28:24)

My. I was worried about my knee. My back hurt. It felt violating to have somebody press their body against my back. I was full of adrenaline. I was really upset, and I. I'm sorry that I cursed.

Ben Shepard (28:37)

And after all that, Gwyneth's time on the stand is over.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (28:42)

We'll let it go. Thank you.

Gwyneth Paltrow (28:44)

Thank you.

Terry Sanderson (28:45)

Cross.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (28:46)

It's five o'.

Gwyneth Paltrow (28:47)

Clock.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (28:49)

We're done.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (28:50)

Thank you.

Ben Shepard (28:51)

They all file out. Gwyneth, I imagine, to her SUV and bone broth. Sanderson to goodness knows where. There are a few more days of the trial after this, but they pass uneventfully. Gwyneth attends every day, sitting in the front row next to her lawyers, judiciously taking notes in a $300 notebook until finally it's time for the jury to decide who will be found at fault, Sanderson or Gwyneth. That's after the break.

Gwyneth's Lawyer (29:37)

You're listening to Infamous from Campside Media.

Ben Shepard (29:42)

It's day eight of Gwyneth versus Sanderson. The jury files out to deliberate. They have to reach a unanimous verdict. So they're all going to a little room to discuss everything they've just heard and decide who is at fault. This could take days, even weeks. But about two hours later, they're ready.

Terry Sanderson (30:05)

Thank you. We'll now have the clerk read the verdict.

Ben Shepard (30:09)

Gwyneth blinks a few times, but her face is totally neutral. She must be feeling so nervous. Did they decide that quickly because the evidence against her was just so strong? Or will the case go in her favor? She listens.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (30:26)

Was Terry Sanderson at fault?

Vanessa Grigoriadis (30:29)

Yes. Did Terry Sanderson's fault cause Gwyneth Paltrow's harm? Yes.

Ben Shepard (30:35)

The court port TV cameras push in on Gwyneth's face. Closer. Closer. She blinks again and again.

Lawyer (Prosecutor or Plaintiff's Attorney) (30:46)

What percent of the fault do you.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (30:47)

Assign to Terri Sanderson? 100%.

Ben Shepard (30:52)

At this, Gwyneth's mouth opens as though she's gasping. She looks down and exhales. Gwyneth has been found not to be at fault, even though she's privileged and unlikable and oh so desperately out of touch. In this case, she's right.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (31:13)

What amount fairly compensates Gwyneth Paltrow for economic damages?

Ben Shepard (31:18)

$1 and she's gotten her $1. The camera pans to Terry Sanderson. He looks down for a long, long time. Terry may have been found at fault, but the real loser here is the taxpayer. Because trials like Gwyneth and Sanderson's reportedly cost the average household more than $3,500 a year.

Terry Sanderson (31:46)

This court is now adjourned. Thank you.

Ben Shepard (31:49)

Gwyneth gets up to leave, but she doesn't head straight for the door. She walks across the beige courtroom, past all the press and lawyers and dreary wooden benches, directly over to Sanderson, her rival in all this for the last few years. She puts her right hand on his left shoulder, leans over and whispers something. It's so quick and so quiet, the cameras don't pick it up. But outside, inside the courtroom, Sanderson reveals what she said.

Terry Sanderson (32:23)

I wish you well.

Ben Shepard (32:25)

And maybe she really did.

Vanessa Grigoriadis (32:31)

Thanks so much for listening to the tale of Gwyneth and the ski slope. Gwyneth versus the ski slope, I guess you could say. So. We will be back with a conversation with Amy o', Dell, who wrote an incredible biography of Gwyneth Paltrow. Enjoy your week, everybody.