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- [00:00]
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- [00:36]
Ben
If you grew up around the mainline or anywhere with a lot of money and a lot of Jews, you probably know about bar Mitzvah season or Bat Mitzvahs if you're a girl. It all starts off with a lovely service at the synagogue and then a big party. There's specialty drinks, maybe even sushi. Girls are wearing too tight short dresses and the crowd is dancing to pop hits. Sometimes someone throws out hoodies, pajama pants, neon sunglasses into the crowd. It's all very middle school, but also sort of Vegas.
- [01:12]
Cami
These Bat mitzvahs for sure are ridiculous, right? Like, they are ridiculous. They are over the top, they are expensive, and I loved throwing them. I loved thinking about slanting them. I love the whole thing.
- [01:23]
Ben
Here's Elisa Verney, Josh's sister.
- [01:26]
Elisa
If you have means like you throw these huge parties for the bar Bat Mitzvah child, and it's not just celebrating them. It's celebrating family and life and everything.
- [01:37]
Ben
Else at the Bat Mitzvahs for Josh and Cami's daughters, it was about love, too. Josh choreographed a full dance routine and he sort of sweat through his shirt. Cami even had T shirts printed up that said Josh's sweatshirt because he sweat a lot.
- [01:56]
Cami
Everything is calculated to the minute. You know, they are productions, they are lavish, like they're at a country club. And they're creative and decorated.
- [02:05]
Fiona
Great.
- [02:05]
Cami
I loved these parties. They're super fun to throw. The paper keeps on mentioning about the Bat Mitzvah. They do point to the Bat Mitzvahs, which I agree with. They were happy memories that are no longer happy memories for sure.
- [02:22]
Ben
From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. This is infamous. From Khan to Cupid Episode 2 I'm Panessa Gregoriadas. So Josh Verney, and a reminder he didn't talk to us for this podcast, is living in a super shishi Community. And he and Cami are pillars of that community, too.
- [02:45]
Cami
You're talking about titans of the industry. You're talking about, you know, people who are inventors of tech, you name it. Like, you know, lots of real estate money in my area. Just. You're just. You're in a very prestigious pool.
- [03:02]
Ben
Josh was focused on making money doing his startups, but Cammie didn't like just the party part of the bat mitzvah. She was focused on something else entirely. She was also focused on finding faith.
- [03:15]
Cami
A friend of mine asked me to hear a female speaker and inspirational speaker. I had no idea it was that religion. Zero. And it was this woman, Neely Cousins. And she spoke about God in a way that I didn't know Jews felt about God. And I remember the line with one of the lines that resonated with me. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be all on it. And I just thought of my own refrigerator at home where, like, every one of my kids stupid artwork or, like, whatever, Like. Like the pride I felt of all of the things on my refrigerator. I just never thought that God. I've never thought of God that way. Like, I only knew God, like, as, like, you fast on Yom Kippur. I didn't really think about it. So I wrote her a note afterwards that I was deeply moved, and Cami.
- [04:03]
Ben
Wanted to share what she felt with other people.
- [04:06]
Cami
I would love for you to come to my house and speak to my friends. And. And I started to go to the. And she already had a group set up where I went. Someone else graciously invited me to their house to learn, and we would just learn about all kinds of things. And there were these intimate circles of women that were no longer talking about, this teacher at school sucks. And, you know, my husband, you know, is like a schlub. It was women talking about, like, what does it mean to honor your parents? What does it mean to not gossip this high? Like, holds me to a higher level. And being in the company of women who also want to hold themselves to a higher level is very inspiring. So I started having classes at my house, and I would have women sitting on the steps. Like, I could have 50 women in my house. Just we were learning. And it was one of the happiest things I was ever a part of. I loved it, loved it, loved it. And I felt like I was part of this, like, sweet space all the time. And I had these amazing teachers, and we did a lot of stuff about parenting because we had young kids. You know, what's Our purpose of a parent. Like what? You know, like my teacher Neely would say, like, we all wish that our kids came with a washing label. Like, you know, if you had Michael Phelps as your son, you know, you would say, swim lessons, swim lessons, swim lessons. More swim lessons. Right? Like, and like, if they don't come with, like, exact lessons of who they are, then try to find, like, something in your kids. Like, what are they good at? What. What do they excel at? How do you help them be that? Right? So if they're not good at math, who cares? They weren't meant to be a mathematician, but if they're a good dancer, your job as a parent is to be that diving board, right? You're that propel them into something else. And it upped my parenting game.
- [05:53]
Ben
Judaism became more and more part of Cami's life and also helped her gain status in a way.
- [06:00]
Cami
My kids were little and, like, I had never had a Shabbat dinner before and we used to like, have dance party Shabbats with the kids. Like, so this was like, way before any of that. Like, I would have people over for Shabbat and I always. I liked to cook and do all that stuff. And so, like, and we would take all the pillows off our couch and the couch would, like, you know, kids would like, dance. We'd blast music and the kids would dance. It was like such a joy. Every Friday. Every Friday, the. This house was filled with, like, good food, lots of laughs.
- [06:29]
Ben
Here's Alisa again.
- [06:31]
Elisa
Just that Kami puts out a spread. She's. I mean, she's just the hostess with the mostest. She puts out a huge spread. Everyone from business people to babysitters are there. She just includes everyone and anybody. I remember meeting Josh was always so proud to introduce me to, like, his newest business venture person or, you know, someone he's working with or trying to get involved or trying to get invested. So I remember being, you know, introduced to those types of people.
- [07:06]
Ben
It was business and pleasure and family and faith all mixed together.
- [07:12]
Cami
Yes. You're in this zip code. The people who are coming, more likely than not are successful people. I mean, like, that's who we knew, that's who was in our surroundings. There is a split, like, so like, I would talk to the woman and he would talk to the man and they would talk about business. Right. So there was always business discussion. Whether sometimes it. Sometimes not at Shabbat, but, like there. Yes. Like if he. There was somebody here. Josh is a force and you kind of wanted to get on his train so I'll have what he's having kind of thing. Like he was such a force. Like why you know you would want to invest in him because he was so charismatic and devoted and passionate.
- [08:04]
Ben
Being around someone successful can be really powerful. As we all know.
- [08:14]
Gina
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- [09:15]
Hannah
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- [10:13]
Cami
Simple.
- [10:18]
Hannah
This is Infamous from Campside Media.
- [10:24]
Ben
As Cami became the Shabbat hostess with the mostest, Josh was selling all kinds of people and investing in his new companies. Sometimes at those very dinners, the guys around them were major mockers. A 1% Jewish mainline elite like David Adelman who was behind the Sixers attempt to get a new arena. Or Michael Rubin, owner of the Fanatics, the sports Paraphernalia business worth around $25 billion. Josh told him he was a success too, and had been in his last companies.
- [10:56]
Cami
He was always like that, like a peacock, right? He just was like an embellisher Sometimes.
- [11:03]
Ben
When he was talking, Kami noticed that Josh exaggerated their wealth.
- [11:08]
Cami
I didn't like it. We had just come out from a financially vulnerable place.
- [11:12]
Ben
Cami didn't mind some embellishment when it came to her. She liked it when Josh told her she was beautiful, adored, essential. But sometimes the way he would go on about these qualities, it got to be a little much.
- [11:27]
Cami
Even if he. Sometimes he would brag about our sex life. And I didn't like that either. Also, it was first, it wasn't 100% true. We had a healthy sex life, but not to the point he was bragging about. And so then it was like, well, a lot of people struggle in their marriages with sex. Like you could be making somebody really unhappy by vices. So it was like the whole thing, everything was kind of embellished, but it.
- [11:51]
Ben
Was part of the whole charm, the mensch Josh thing. He charmed everyone with flattery. They were the open door family, everybody invited to the party. I mean, Josh even invited his co workers, parents to the bat mitzvah.
- [12:06]
Umang
They were just like, holy cow. There's. Everything was so extravagant. There were, you know, these performers and this huge venue and just it was very extravagant.
- [12:17]
Ben
That was Umang Shah, who was in the C suite in another company Josh started named Flock U. It was a play on fuck you and it was an online community for college students. Umang was the cmo.
- [12:31]
Umang
I had just left a full time job and the last thing I wanted was a full time job. Yet he was good enough to convince me to take on a full time job. But Josh is, is quite good at selling.
- [12:43]
Ben
Umang did notice how extravagant everything was.
- [12:46]
Umang
We would go out on sales calls. We'd often either fly first class or we would take a private jet. Josh insisted on kind of compensating people very much more, more with salaries and less with equity, which is kind of the opposite of most startups. And so, you know, most of the people were paid a kind of a reasonable market rate.
- [13:11]
Ben
Umang says that Josh wanted to be the one managing the books, but he would be sort of cagey about how the budgets were shaking out.
- [13:19]
Umang
I consider myself to be a fairly logical, maybe even smart person and I could not always understand how the math worked out. Like, how did you know, how did we get paid? How do we do all that that.
- [13:33]
Ben
Stuff was odd, but it also wasn't totally out of the ordinary. A lot of entrepreneurs splurge if that's the lifestyle they've become accustomed to, and they're just scrappy when it comes to business. But over time, the weirdness added up.
- [13:49]
Umang
I remember for certain investor pitches or sales pitches, you know, I would lay out an interesting way to present the information and the facts to show growth numbers. Right. Hey, look, we saw growth month over month at this rate, which is great for a startup you're tracking on a higher frequency. He would often kind of encourage us to exaggerate that even more. And so maybe inflate a number, maybe, you know, like position it, like, outside of the facts. And so, you know, I think that was my first sign of. Wait a minute. Yeah, I don't know if I love that. I don't think I really feel great about that.
- [14:30]
Ben
But in the end, the checks were clearing.
- [14:33]
Umang
During my time there, I always got paid eventually. You know, my salary always eventually got paid, and my expenses always got paid, and so there was never question about that.
- [14:45]
Ben
Cammie also tried to be involved in Flock U in the sort of blog for college students. She had fun with it.
- [14:52]
Cami
So he started that. I wanted to write about a mother's perspective. And I would have the arm like old mother Flocker. And like, I would. I would use my. Because I like to write, like. So I was going to write about a mother's experience in college and interview moms and. But I. So I wrote and like, the only person who read it was my own mom. So, like, it was definitely not going.
- [15:16]
Ben
To work, but things still felt good.
- [15:19]
Umang
Josh just kind of verbally presented himself as successful entrepreneur who took the proceeds from previous successful exit and rolled it into this business. He talked about, you know, having invested at that point, I think it was $9 million into the business. And so he would refer to his past successes and kind of, you know, his lifestyle as proof of his success.
- [15:48]
Ben
His past successes. Well, one success which was this successful exit from workpays me. But flockyou was turning out to be not as big of a hit.
- [16:00]
Umang
We ran into some complications which didn't think there was a pathway where Floki was going to be successful, not in the way that we had built it. And so ultimately the decision was made that we're going to, okay, package that up and sell the company for assets or whatever. Ultimately, I told Josh, look, I'm going to step away. This has been great. I'm going to back out. I'm going to let you guys run the new business.
- [16:25]
Ben
Umang stepped away and Josh finished dealing with a sale.
- [16:29]
Umang
They found a buyer. It was kind of the actual sale happened after I left.
- [16:34]
Ben
The thing is that sale would be for $1. But it didn't seem to matter because Josh was always ready with a new pitch.
- [16:48]
Hannah
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- [17:15]
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- [17:47]
Hannah
This is infamous from Campside Media.
- [17:51]
Ben
So Josh is becoming a bigger and bigger deal with his startup companies and everyone loves him. He's warm, Jewish, relational. Here's Linda Sommer. She founded a successful marketing and research consultancy and she used some of that money, actually quite a lot of it, to invest in Josh's companies.
- [18:11]
Fiona
My husband had just passed away. Two days later my mother passed away. So I went to. I wanted to find an attorney. So I met my skin doctors. And she says, I know this really, really. He says, I know this really, really wonderful attorney. I said, okay, can I have a name? I would like to interview a couple of people. He said, I went to school with Cammie. That's his daughter and she's lovely. She's an attorney. Her dad is an attorney. I say, okay. So I call Cammie's dad and I meet with him and we, you know, we got along really well. And then he says to me, Linda, you know you're just like, you're amazing. You have to meet my son in law. He's the most wonderful person in the whole world. He's going to love you. He's great. So I go, okay. And then I set up a meeting to meet Josh. So I go to Josh's office and we got along really well. And I was doing, I started doing. He, he was, he was having this new company the first one.
- [19:18]
Ben
So Linda invested.
- [19:20]
Fiona
He had incredibly brilliant people who were investing. It felt pretty safe because these men are smart. I sent documents to, let's say, I spoke to my financial advisor. And when it was the one thing I was invested in, it looked like it was a really good idea. It really looked good on paper. They had a lot of momentum. So that one went under, and I lost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Then he said, I'm turning it over to this. And it was another company Josh got.
- [19:54]
Ben
Involved with, Beatbox Beverages, an alcohol distributor that took off after it raised a million dollars for Mark Cuban on Shark Tank.
- [20:02]
Fiona
The people from Beatbox were at their daughter's bar mitzvah when they were first starting out. So I had met them, and then Josh said he was on the board there, and it seemed like it was going to be a really great thing to do.
- [20:13]
Ben
And so Linda invested in that company and others of Josh's.
- [20:18]
Fiona
I'm going to give you from my own personal stop so that you really know that this is. You know that this is really strong, and I'm committing to you, right? And I remember saying to him, josh, you know, my husband just died. You know that I've given you almost half of my life savings. Linda, you don't have to worry. I'm protecting you.
- [20:37]
Ben
In fact, Josh would raise approximately $31 million in all for all of his startups. Most of the people who were investing with him were rich. They were people who knew how money worked. Josh told them that they would get a 10 to 12% return on their investments per year. And he guaranteed that they'd get their money back after one or two years, too. I mean, even if you're investing in the stock market and things are going well, you might not do that well. So it sounded pretty good to his investors. But at home, returns didn't seem so solid.
- [21:14]
Cami
My credit card wouldn't work at the supermarket. And he'd be like, oh, you know, like, I'm changing money. And then, like, it would. I'd be like, but Josh, like, I'm. You know, it was embarrassing, like. And he'd be like, oh, it's okay. And then it would be okay. So, like, there would be these things that would happen or money would be moved around or, you know. But again, like, I would be. He'd be. There was something he would say all the time. My dad, growing up had a nickname for me called the Lady. I was the lady because I was always very ladylike. And so Josh would say, no stress for Lady. And that was his big thing. No stress for lady. So if I would have financial concerns, he would always say, no stress for lady. And it was just easier to be like, okay. And I always felt that the financial stuff was above my head. Like, I didn't really understand this stuff, so it was just easier to be like, okay, like, I'm gonna focus on the things that I do understand.
- [22:14]
Ben
Except by 2019, the Vernie Home isn't super happy.
- [22:20]
Cami
I mean, like, my housekeeper had said to me, she's like, I think that there's vodka in Josh's coffee cup. And so I was like, josh, was there vodka in your coffee cup? And he's like, no. He's like, somebody came over the night before. I gave him a drink. I kind of, like, spilled it in there, like. And I was like, okay.
- [22:34]
Ben
Like, before, Cammie said he always came back in a good mood, but now he has a temper.
- [22:40]
Cami
He was like. He once got so mad at me, he punched the wall and, like, split his finger open and needed stitches. Like, this was out of nowhere. He was calling me a spoiled brat.
- [22:52]
Ben
During this time. They get into couples counseling.
- [22:56]
Cami
We were in therapy, and he was like, she's bringing all this stress on me, and, you know, all she cares, you know, like, it was really just ugly. It was really ugly. And I didn't recognize who this. This man was anymore. Like, this was my favorite human on earth to be with. He was my best friend. I would have, you know, like, if you said to me, like, could I have a girls night with my college friends or him. Him every day. Like, we loved movies. We loved dancing. Like, we. And I just was like. And he loved me. Like, I. And now I couldn't stand the sight of him, and he couldn't stand the sight of me. It was really ugly.
- [23:35]
Ben
Cami was feeling like she didn't understand where the money was going. And her therapist had an idea.
- [23:41]
Cami
He said to Josh that he should open up a bank account for me to make me feel more in control of money, which Josh did. He didn't put money in it, but, like, he did open the bank account. So. And that was kind of enough for me. Like, okay, well, he's doing everything that he says he's gonna do. And I was going to stop asking him a million questions about business.
- [24:02]
Ben
But Kami isn't the only one with questions for Josh. Josh turns to Umang for some help.
- [24:08]
Umang
There were multiple times where I would use my personal credit card to finance business things. It really wasn't a big thing. I Mean, but sometimes those. Those expenses could been up to $50,000. They were running media, and we needed to pay for some advertising. The expenses themselves weren't concerning. It was, you know, okay, the fact that I'm putting $50,000 on my personal credit card. But again, I got paid back. So I didn't think much of it.
- [24:33]
Ben
But then something changed.
- [24:35]
Umang
Says, hey, we're at this pivotal point. We're building this platform. You know, our credit cards are getting blocked because of technical reasons. You know, we need some new credit cards. Are you able to help? And we put together a structure where he was going to, you know, pay me back a certain fee in exchange for allowing him to use my credit card. And, and so just. Just for context, the business that he was running at the time was all about kind of rent to own. So once, once this. This deal started where he was, you know, he was using my credit card, the expenses actually started racking up really fast. And so, you know, again, it would reach a certain point when maybe I put a couple hundred thousand dollars on my credit card. He would pay some of it back, and then, you know, we find a way to get the card authorized to use again, and then he'd rack some more on. Again, he was building out these, like, really complicated payment structures. Okay, I'm going to pay this amount. This. At this point, this amount for this point, he was going to cover any fees.
- [25:44]
Ben
But then that starts to change, too.
- [25:46]
Umang
Money just started drying up. And so I started to. I started to stress, because when I tell people this, like. Like, it's. It's hard for people to understand, but we had put about $1 million on my credit card. This point, it started to get really stressful and concerning. And I was calling Josh, like, hey, you got to, like, pay me back. My wife was pregnant at the time. We were expecting my first, you know, my first child. Like, all of the stress on top of, you know, this financial stress on top of that, other stress on top of COVID he would try to appease me by sending me documentation of, you know, these accounts that have $50 million in there, but they're tied up and he just can't get the money out right now. He would even send me letters from different bank officials claiming that wires were sent or there was an error with a wire and that they were going to work on it.
- [26:47]
Ben
And Kami says she thought the money was there, too.
- [26:50]
Cami
March 9, 2020, was Purim. And I went to. There's a mitzvah at Purim that you have to Listen to something called a megillah reading, which is the story of Esther. It's fun, and there's a gragger and the whole thing. So I went to synagogue to listen to this megillah reading. And I came out, and there was all of these missed calls. And I called Josh, and he and our friend, our dear friend who's our lawyer, they were in a car, and Josh told me that he had lied about how much money we sold the company for.
- [27:28]
Ben
Kami says he's talking about one of.
- [27:30]
Cami
His companies and gave, you know, like, false information to a friend of mine who was an investor that I've known since I was a little girl. He was like, will you just write a letter to him? Because I was a good writer, like, expl. You know? So I was like, I don't even know what I'm writing, but, like, I'll just apologize. Like, I just wanted to fix it. Like, okay, let's. Okay. I'm so sorry. By accident, I sent it to the guy, and then I was like, can I just come over?
- [27:55]
Ben
So Cami shows up at his home.
- [27:57]
Cami
So I went right to this guy's house filled with beautiful art, styling, and love. I mean, like, fancy, gorgeous, really gorgeous. And he was like, cami, like, I think this can still be fixed. Like, who does Josh owe money to? I'm like, I don't know. I still have the piece of paper, like, three names on that list. I was like, okay, this can still be fixed.
- [28:18]
Ben
If it was only three people, that would be okay. Cami thought, and now she's gonna fix this. Next time on, from conned to Cupid.
- [28:32]
Fiona
Josh always likes to be the man and likes to be in charge. Warm personality, very loving. You're my family. I'll treat you like family.
- [28:42]
Cami
If they were paid for, for small, stolen money. Ew, Ew, ew, ew, ew.
- [28:46]
Fiona
Right?
- [28:47]
Elisa
I would like to get a family.
- [28:48]
Cami
Meeting together, and I want us to.
- [28:50]
Ben
All be there so that we can all be on the same page.