From Conned to Cupid I Part 3

Summary

Infamous Podcast Summary: "From Conned to Cupid I Part 3"

Release Date: May 15, 2025

Introduction to the Case

In the gripping third installment of the "From Conned to Cupid" series, hosted by Vanessa Grigoriadas, listeners delve deeper into the alarming saga of Josh Madoff—a man whose seemingly impeccable reputation unraveled into a colossal fraud scandal. Defrauding over 100 individuals, including family and close friends, Josh's actions have sent shockwaves through the community, leaving a trail of financial and emotional devastation.

Cami's Attempt to Fix the Fraud

Cami, Josh's wife, emerges as a central figure striving to mitigate the damage inflicted by her husband's deceit. From the onset, she is portrayed as a devoted partner desperate to "make everybody whole" despite Josh's manipulative schemes.

Cami (00:43): "I was like, just make everybody whole... So it seemed like we were getting in front of it. And then there was this deal that was supposed to go through for $100 million... It seemed like this could still work out."

Cami's efforts to salvage their reputation involved attempting to sell assets and secure new investments, believing that transparency and honesty could rectify the situation.

The Scale of Josh's Fraud

Vanessa highlights the unprecedented magnitude of Josh's fraud, likening him to a "mini Madoff" due to the extensive reach of his scheme.

Vanessa Grigoriadas (03:33): "The span of Josh's crimes as alleged by the government was massive. It was tons and tons of their friends and community... Everyone they knew was involved."

Josh targeted the 1% Jewish elite around Philadelphia, including prominent figures like billionaire Michael Rubin, founder and CEO of Fanatics. This strategic targeting within a tight-knit community amplified the impact and betrayal felt by the victims.

Family and Community Impact

The betrayal extended deep into Josh's personal life, fracturing family bonds and eroding trust within their social circles. Gail, Josh's sister, recounts the humiliation and emotional strain inflicted upon the family.

Gail (07:00): "Every day we're all being promised back this money and none of us saw a penny of it. So then we come home and then like, it all just starts to fall apart."

The community, once united and supportive, now views Cami as a pariah, struggling to reconcile her outward persona with the scandal engulfing her family.

Intervention and Rehab Efforts

Recognizing the unraveling situation, Cami takes decisive steps to seek help for Josh, leading to his brief stint in rehab. However, Josh's resistance and inconsistent commitment to rehabilitation highlight the complexities of his character.

Cami (09:08): "I brought him to the hospital... And we put him in a very expensive rehab. So, yeah, we got him into rehab. He was there only four days."

Despite these efforts, Josh's erratic behavior and lack of genuine progress usher in further instability, culminating in his relocation attempts and continued deceit.

Legal Consequences

As the fraud comes to light, the SEC and FBI initiate legal actions against Josh. Cami faces intense scrutiny and fear of being implicated, though the FBI ultimately clears her of involvement.

Cami (16:02): "Now the FBI wants to interview me to see if I am at all guilty in this scheme... Is this gonna get worse?"

Josh's legal battles culminate in his indictment for securities fraud, wire fraud, aggravated identity theft, and witness retaliation and intimidation. The government accuses him of misusing investor funds to sustain an opulent lifestyle, including extravagant bat mitzvahs for his daughters and luxury property renovations.

Vanessa Grigoriadas (21:00): "By 2024, Josh was indicted for securities fraud, wire fraud, aggravated identity theft, and something rarer in these kinds of cases. Witness retaliation and intimidation."

Sentencing and Aftermath

Facing a potential maximum sentence of 242 years and a hefty fine of $17.5 million, Josh's legal journey is fraught with aggravating circumstances, given the prolonged nature of his offenses. The community grapples with mixed emotions as Cami prepares for the sentencing.

Vanessa Grigoriadas (23:39): "A judge is probably going to give a sentence that exceeds the sentencing guidelines."

Aftermath and Recovery

In the wake of the scandal, Cami endeavors to rebuild her life, channeling her experiences into helping others avoid similar pitfalls. Through the support of fellow victims like Linda Summer, Cami transitions into a role as a matchmaker, emphasizing personal growth and self-worth.

Cami (32:42): "I couldn't imagine someone's making me get out of my house... Cami had to learn how to receive."

Cami's journey is marked by emotional healing and a reconnection with her values, striving to redefine her identity beyond the shadows of Josh's actions.

Conclusion and Future Plans

As the episode concludes, Cami's transformation serves as a beacon of resilience and empowerment. The upcoming episode promises to explore the controversial topic of "Trad Wives," featuring insights from matchmaker Aliza Ben Shalom, who brings a modern perspective to traditional Jewish matchmaking practices.

Vanessa Grigoriadas (35:54): "Next week, we'll be talking about Trad Wives... and hear from the matchmaker that Cami works for, Elisa Benchalone, with a Netflix show about how dating works in more traditional Jewish communities."

Notable Quotes

• Cami (00:43): "I was like, just make everybody whole."
• Vanessa Grigoriadas (03:33): "The span of Josh's crimes as alleged by the government was massive."
• Gail (07:00): "Every day we're all being promised back this money and none of us saw a penny of it."
• Cami (09:08): "I brought him to the hospital... We put him in a very expensive rehab."
• Cami (16:02): "Now the FBI wants to interview me to see if I am at all guilty in this scheme."
• Vanessa Grigoriadas (21:00): "By 2024, Josh was indicted for securities fraud... Witness retaliation and intimidation."
• Cami (32:42): "I couldn't imagine someone's making me get out of my house... Cami had to learn how to receive."

Final Thoughts

"From Conned to Cupid I Part 3" offers a profound exploration of trust, betrayal, and the arduous path to redemption. Through Cami's harrowing experience, the podcast underscores the complexities of human relationships and the resilience required to overcome profound personal and communal crises.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Campsite Media so Cami now knows that Josh has been defrauding some people with his companies and she wants to help make things right.

[Cami]

I was like, just make everybody whole. And he's like, I sold stock. I had this whatever, and I sold it for a million dollars. And we can pay people back and, you know, amaze. Sell whatever we have. Great, wonderful. So, like, I thought like that kind of. So it seemed like we were getting in front of it. And then there was this deal that was supposed to go through for $100 million to put money into the company to buy the goods up front, you know, and that was being in the works and that actually closed. It seemed like this could still work out. It seemed like this was some. Like it could be fixed somehow.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

So she went about trying to fix it.

[Cami]

There's a concept in Judaism, if you're honest in business, that's the first thing that God asks you when you go to heaven, is were you honest in business? Because were you honest when no one was watching? So I was like, okay, Josh, you have to be honest. Let's start from we have people who are willing to help us. We can figure this out. Who were you dishonest to? How do we get in front of it? There's something called rapping Tefillin that you do when you're like, really religious. I was like, maybe I'll reach out to someone, help you rap Tefillin. So to see if that helps your spiritual connection and maybe we'll be able to get through this. So I have someone online rapping. I saw him rapping to Villain. I was like, that's not it. This is nonsense. This is something else.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

The way Josh was acting, it just felt like more than a spiritual problem. It felt like she was with somebody, losing it.

[Cami]

There was a movie, Uncut Gems, with Adam Sandler.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

That's the movie where Adam Sandler plays a New York jeweler who has these big hip hop star cl. And he also has a very intense sports gambling problem.

[Cami]

And I saw Uncut Gems and I said, Josh, his energy is your energy. Like that's how you feel to me right now, this frantic energy. I made a crazy risk, a gamble.

[Howard]

And it's about to pay off.

[Advertiser]

Howard, where's the money right now?

[Howard]

You said I got till Monday. Today is still Monday. Is it too late?

[Cami]

I'm thinking it. Just give me another shot. Are you serious right now?

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

In fact, Cammie would soon learn that it wasn't just three people that Josh got in trouble with. Like we said last episode, with his investments. According to the government, it was over 100 people. That is an absolutely stunning number. It was way beyond Cami trying to make people whole, beyond her trying to fix it. And she had been right there as all this happened. The perfect wife who all the people who were allegedly conned just loved. Josh's brother in law says that too.

[Gail]

It was very embarrassing and it was, you know, here's a woman who was really put on a pedestal in the.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Community and now she was getting knocked off. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. This is infamous. From Con to Cupid Episode three I'm Vanessa Gregoriadas. So the span of Josh's crimes as alleged by the government was massive. It was tons and tons of their friends and community all. All along the main line. It felt sometimes like it was everyone they knew. Well, that's what they said on the local news.

[Linda]

They knew this guy way back. Their daughters went to school with his kids and they found him persuasive. He would have Friday evening meetings, Jewish holiday, even the Jewish Sabbath, and they would talk about religious things. They would present, in other words, community aspects. You know, he would come across as a person who was kind of one of us.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Is he charming?

[Linda]

He is described to me. He won't talk to me, but he is described as energetic, eager, helpful. The kind of guy who volunteers, the kind of guy who takes the captain's hat on and helps.

[Cami]

If people like this, who are considered.

[Josh's Brother-in-law]

Very successful businessmen, very successful people in society, if they can't figure out a.

[Josh's Victim]

Scam, is there any hope for any of us?

[Linda]

You know, this is a rare case.

[Advertiser]

Okay.

[Linda]

You know, usually these are people. When it's a person within the group, you know, whether whatever group it is, you know, it's somebody they've known a long time, it's somebody whose family hangs out with theirs, you know, is not going to necessarily put himself in this position where they will be. They will cause their friends losses.

[Josh's Victim]

Their.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Friends had losses, the community had losses. It was so many people. The government was alleging up to 110 people were defrauded and like Cami's dad said earlier, she'd been the conduit to some of them. This trim woman who socialized all the time, the one throwing the extraordinary Shabbats to bring everybody together. She said she didn't know, but was it willful ignorance? Those who lost money were furious, including one lawyer.

[Cami]

He had printed up T shirts that said Josh Madoff and called and threatened that he was going to go to the kids schools and pass them out. At the end of the day, can you imagine a 14 year old middle schooler? And we were able to back him off.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

And part of what made Josh's scam so unique was that some of the people involved were allegedly part of Josh's own family. That family with the slinky at their house and the Sopranos picture on the wall. They had maybe played gangster in the past, but now there was something worse in their midst. Even Madoff didn't intentionally defraud most of his family. Here's Gail, Josh's sister.

[Josh's Brother-in-law]

Every day we're all being promised back this money and none of us saw a penny of it. So then we come home and then like, it all just starts to fall apart.

[Gail]

Other people, other people, friends, like colleagues, like friends of ours would be like, hey, what's going on? Like, do you. And then we'd be like, wait, you too? Here's Cammie just stayed at home and took care of the kids and you know, know, taught Torah, you know. So she's like, what's happening?

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

That was Gail's husband who's saying that before this all came out, he suggested that the family needed to get together.

[Josh's Brother-in-law]

He's like, I would like to get together and I want us to all be there so that we can all be on the same page.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

But the meeting didn't go exactly as planned.

[Josh's Brother-in-law]

Josh Bernie showed up with a legal sized notepad and he basically just sat there and literally like ran the meeting and with his own agenda. And he's like, here's what we're going to discuss. Here's 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, and we're going to discuss one and then we're going to move on. So he would go like number one and he would address the issue and then he would go on to number two. And I'm like, hold on, can you go back to number one? I just have a couple of questions. And he did not like that. He was like, I'm not answering any questions. I'm just here to like, you know, set the, you know, set the tone. Straight and let you know.

[Gail]

Meeting ended. I walked Josh out. He was a disaster. He was hysterical. And I said, I, you could never come back here. You can't talk to my family anymore. I.

[Howard]

You.

[Gail]

You need to get help. I don't know what's going on in your life. I'm so sorry, whatever you're going through, but you can't contact your family. I don't want you calling your parents anymore. You just took a swing at your sister. Get your shit together and you got.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

To get out within months. Josh would not be a bull anymore, though. He would have a breakdown.

[Cami]

Sukkot is my favorite Jewish holiday. Sukkot is a time where you build these temporary dwellings outside and you invite people in and you access joy through what's in the Sukkah. What's in the sukkah? No material possessions, friends, family, food, stars, sun. And I make a big deal of it. I decorate my sukkah. It was the first night of suk.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

But Josh is on the couch and he's not moving. Reminder. We did not speak with Josh for this podcast.

[Cami]

I brought him to the hospital. At that point, people were talking about COVID brain. I thought maybe he had a stroke. They pulled me aside and said, you, husband has a 2.2 blood alcohol content. And I was like, that's not possible. Is there any way that that's wrong? Because it's the afternoon on a Friday. What do you mean? And they were like, no, it's true. I said to Josh, they're gonna let you stay here. I'm done. And I got the kids, got my parents, and I was like, I'm done. Like, this is it, you know? So I called his parents, called his sisters, and I was like, he's a mess. He's an alcoholic. I don't know what he is, but, like, he's drunk. My father in law agrees. And we put him in a very expensive rehab. So, yeah, we got him into rehab. He was there only four days, but.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

He did go to another rehab.

[Cami]

He was writing me these long emails about how he has a new lease on life and how everything's, you know, he's going to change and he recognizes the error of his ways and he is getting massages and meditating and he met a celebrity and everything was gonna be great and he was gonna be bought out of the company for $2 million. It's just like, I know none of that is true. There's no 2 million. But you wanna believe it if it's true, everything is so much easier. But at that point, I know there's no way this is true. I write him an email and I CC the first. I write the letter to the facility. I said, I know what I want Josh to get better. He's the father of my children. I don't in anywhere want to interfere, but I have a feeling that you're not getting any truth to what's happening at home and that you're getting this rosy picture that, like, we still have money, he's going to start a new career and I'm divorcing him. And I don't want to hear about, he was mentioning a celebrity who was with him. I don't want to hear about the celebrity. I don't want to hear about the massages he's getting. I am done. And he has to face that this is our new reality and it is not pretty. So because I wrote that letter naming the celebrity, he had violated confidentiality agreement and he was kicked out. So now it was, oh my God, I can't have him back here. And my father in law was like, I'm not paying for another stint at a. So we found, he said there was another place that our insurance took in California. Of course, the place that he said was not free. It did not take our insurance. And I find him a rehab facility in Mississippi. So he goes to Mississippi at the rehab facility. And it is a good facility. It is not luxury, but it's a good facility. So I get him a job at Starbucks out in Mississippi. I find rabbis in Mississippi. I actually find three rabbis in Mississippi. And he left there after like a week. And then he went to Florida. And really it was just like, why did you leave? I actually think if he could rewrite this story and go to the Mississippi facility, get the job at Starbucks, try to rehabilitate his life, people would have softened.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

But that's not what happened. Gail's husband Josh, some of us were.

[Gail]

Like, he doesn't need a rehab. He's not an alcoholic, he's not a drug addict. He's just a narcissist just trying to delay shit.

[Simplisafe Advertiser]

With longer daylight hours, you may be spending more time away from home. And that can create opportunities for break inside. In fact, FBI crime data shows that burglaries are more likely to happen during the day than at night. Simplisafe is the new standard in home security, offering proactive protection that helps stop threats before they happen. Traditional systems usually only react once. A break in is already in progress, but Simplisafe's active guard outdoor protection helps Prevent intrusions from the start. AI powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents can detect suspicious activity. The system lets agents intervene in real time. Monitoring plans start at about a dollar a day and there's a 60 day satisfaction guarantee. Visit simplisafe.com infamouspodcast to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com infamouspodcast There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Howard]

This is infamous from Campside Media.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

All in all, it seems that Josh had taken about $14 million in what was partly a Ponzi scheme. He had shown different investors different documents that made it seem like everything was okay. Like a $50 million account he supposedly had at Goldman Sachs. The marks were the 1% Jewish elite around Philadelphia. The biggest of the biggest names, including billionaire fanatics owner and Philly vip. Michael Rubin.

[Josh's Victim]

Billionaire Michael Rubin is the founder and CEO of Fanatics. The global sports company has three businesses. Sports, commerce, collectibles and betting.

[Cami]

I put all of my energy into.

[Linda]

Business because that's the one thing I was good at.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Reuven is no dummy. But he still got taken. And one of these guys told a local Philly paper that Josh was really a mini Madoff because he screwed all of us out of money, including friends, family, and lots of prominent people who trusted him and knew him for years. No one saw it coming. He played off our emotions. It was not like investing with a stranger. This was years of knowing him before I gave him a penny.

[Cami]

A Montgomery county man accused of ripping.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Off more than 100 investors out of $31 million.

[Cami]

Yeah. And then the SEC got involved. The securities and Exchange Commission slapped Josh.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Verney of Huntington Valley with a complaint this week. And Kami was left holding the bag.

[Cami]

Even with your friends who are, like, in carpool lines and living like a normal life, like you can no longer relate to them anymore. We don't understand each other anymore. Like, we're so different. There's lifetimes between what my stress is and your stress. At this moment, nothing's been paid. Then it was the next thing, the next bill, the next this, the next that. And I was just. This was like, how is this my reality?

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

In the spring, the FBI said they wanted to talk to her.

[Cami]

Now the FBI wants to interview me to see if I am at all guilty in this scheme. Okay, so then the world really stops. Could I go to jail? Is that on this menu? Holy shit. Oh, my God. And they're gonna ask me questions and everything. I know is a lie. You see people get falsely accused of stuff. And you see people, you know, life is not fair. Is this gonna get worse? Is this. How much worse can. Like, that's what I kept on thinking, like, is it gonna get worse? How's it gonna get worse? How can this possibly get worse? Now I'm like, I remember sitting in this in the FBI. And you're sitting there, couldn't sleep the night before. You're leaning the gold light letters, Federal bureau of investigations and a big gold seal. And I kept on thinking of, like, you know, what was that movie with Will Smith where there's aliens, Men in Black. I kept on thinking, I wish this was like, supernatural, where, you know, like how, like, he has the light and like, one day everything was his world, and then the next day he finds out aliens exist. And there's this secret men in black.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

In the FBI offices. Cami puts on her old criminal defense attorney hat. She needs to save herself and her daughters. Her blue sundress dotted with white flowers feels out of place under harsh fluorescent lights. She's going to have to answer for the life she's built. A life of high end bat mitzvahs, country club brunches, elegant charity events. So much of it was paid with ill gotten gains.

[Cami]

If you have a loved one and they're having surgery and you're waiting in a hallway, it's this hallway of, like, angst and stress and where your time's stopped, where you can look out a window and people are having lunch outside, but your life is stopped. Your life is like nothing about. It's lighthearted. Everything is life or death. And that's this hallway that was just like, what's my life going to be? This is so bigger than me. This is so big. It's just so scary. How am I gonna go home to my kids? I have to tell the truth. But what am I. You know what? My truth isn't good for their father. So I had that, like, will my kids forgive me? And my dad would say, cami, you don't have a choice. It's not like you can be like, no, thanks. I'm not gonna talk to you. You're subpoenaed. My dad was like, the only thing you have to do is tell the truth. If you lie, you're gonna go to jail. Cami.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Cami's father, Barry, went with her. He was family after all. He was the lawyer she trusted.

[Howard]

It's not only an FBI agent, it's two U.S. attorneys and two forensic accountants. And they're all there, okay? Asking you every conceivable question known to mankind. Didn't you recognize the profligate spending your husband was engaged in? Didn't you recognize this? What about the bat mitzvahs you threw? They were over the top.

[Simplisafe Advertiser]

Top.

[Howard]

What about, you know, the home down the shore? The decorators? This is. I mean, they were accusatory questions. This was not a polite interview. And I think cabby started crying when they got to the enormity of spying that people were doing on her, her neighbors. I mean, you know, I mean, when she walked out of the house, she had this sense that people were looking at her askance. And I would, too, if I gave my kids 529 plan to an investor, okay? And now my kids are gonna take out college loans, and this person lives two doors away from me. So all that brought on a T of legitimate tears and emotions.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

The FBI agreed that Cami wasn't in on the scam. She was not going to be charged. Josh would be brought up on criminal charges alone.

[Advertiser]

Ladies, you'll end up shopping for your guy's deodorant. Right. So try Degree's Original Cool Rush. You see, last year, Degree changed the formula, and men were mad. One guy even started a petition. So Degree admitted they messed up and brought the original Cool Rush scent back. It's clean, crisp, and actually smells like someone you wanna cuddle. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. So toss one in your cart and find out why it's the best selling men's antiperspirant. Different for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back, and it smells like victory.

[Howard]

This is infamous from campside media.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

By 2024, Josh was indicted for securities fraud, wire fraud, aggravated identity theft, and something rarer in these kinds of cases. Witness retaliation and intimidation. Soon he was standing in Courtroom 5A in the Eastern district of Pennsylvania. It was a Thursday, and he faced a federal judge in Philadelphia. His pant leg might have been just slightly raised, and underneath it, you might be able to see an ankle monitor. Josh wants it off. He says it's interfering with his hip condition, for which he's doing water therapy or swimming to help. Which, yeah, he didn't get the ankle monitor off that day, but he did manage to get a judge to take it off later, and pretty soon he took a plea. The government announced that by press release saying Bernie misused business and investor funds to repay prior debts and to finance an affluent lifestyle he could not afford. They ticked off personal Expenses, renovations to his vacation property on the Jersey Shore, travel on private jets, contributions to political candidates, country club payments, and of course, the bat mitzvahs he threw for his daughters. Things tend to get delayed in the federal system, but for now, Josh is scheduled to to be sentenced on June 13th. Here's Cammy's father, Barry.

[Howard]

You know, a guy on the Main line, a Jewish entrepreneur, theoretically stole money from some of the brightest and smartest entrepreneurs and businessmen on the mainland. That's news. We have the sentencing date coming up and that will of course emotionalize Cami, emotionalize the kids. And that will last, based on my experience, roughly 15 minutes.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Josh has been living in Florida for a while now, but soon he'll face a 17.5 million dollar fine and a maximum possible sentence of 242 years years imprisonment with a mandatory minimum of two years imprisonment.

[Howard]

A judge can sentence below the federal guidelines or above the federal guidelines. And he does that based on probate, protracted probation report, and on aggravating and mitigating circumstances. So what would be a mitigating circumstance? Well, Josh in this case has never committed a violent crime, but it's kind of hard to, to argue this is a one off crime when the crime took place over three years. Okay, so Josh is not going to have his parents testify on his behalf saying he's a good boy or this or that, or he's not going to have a forensic psychiatrist say he has a drug problem or this or that. So all the judge is going to hear is aggravating circumstances. So I think the judge is probably going to give a sentence that exceeds the sentencing guidelines.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

So why did Josh do it? I think we all understand an Internet scam when somebody tries to get money claiming it's for a Nigerian or something like that. But what leads somebody to do hand to hand scamming like this face to face, having people over to your home and luring them into deals that are fraudulent. It seems like he wanted control, that he needed control on a deep level. On a publicly available podcast, he said that he has ocd. And maybe that led to some odd choices.

[Josh]

When I was a kid, my parents, instead of sending me to my room or instead of taking things away from me, they actually rearranged my room. That was the way they actually got to me. And what's it called? Trust me, that was a bigger punishment than anything could have been. So we still joke about it to today. You know, ocd, as you said, I was really officially diagnosed about six, six and a half years ago. I always knew I had something. And, you know, quite frankly, the easy way to look at it is, you know, when you have ocd, one side of the brain doesn't talk to the other side of the brain and it really manifests itself in so many different ways and there's so many different opportunities. I was different. I was different than most kids. Where most kids would be able to leave the bedroom or leave their house very easy without thinking about it. When I would do it, I'd have to really think about, did I shut this off? Did I shut that off? Did I cross the threshold of my, of my door appropriately? And trust me, even though I put on a lot of good show, it was very demanding on my brain power. And really. And it was tough. It was really tough.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Did Kami get involved with a bad man, the type of man that her dad used to represent and she used to represent as a criminal defense attorney? Or was Josh simply led astray about how hard it was to build a startup? Did he feel just so much pressure to raise write the family furniture business, Homeline, previously called Chuck's bargain House after he destroyed its initial value in 2008?

[Cami]

Ish.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Was he just simply trying everything he could to support his family? Or on some deeper level, did he want to hurt Cami? Did he want to bring her into his day to day reality of having to find the funds to support the lifestyle they share? All of these theories feel plausible and this has hurt Camillept her with nearly nothing, with everyone gossiping wherever she goes. For some on the main line, she's now a pariah.

[Josh's Victim]

How does she show her face when everybody thinks she robbed all of them?

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

That's Linda Summer, one of Josh's victims, who we heard from last episode.

[Josh's Victim]

There was nobody he didn't steal from. And I imagine how he justified in his head is I, I was making money for. I was going to make money for all these people.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

That's another justification. Josh just thought he was always one second from turning it around.

[Josh's Victim]

I don't want him to have just two years because he could be out in six months for all I know and doing it all over again. But I don't want him to go away for 242 years either.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

But she actually tried to rise above the pain and the anger to help Cami.

[Josh's Victim]

I wasn't thinking about myself. I lost money. I work. I'll always be able to do it. She had a man who she loved, who she thought she had every single thing that a woman could possibly want. She found out nothing was real, but she always looks to find what. So when she. When I offered her a job, of course she jumped at it, but that's where we focused because she didn't have time to be hysterical in every moment.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Linda owns a consulting business where she developed a survey to help companies make hiring decisions. And she saw Kami's potential.

[Josh's Victim]

You know, she had. She had people calling her and being a target. So my instinct was, I have the tools to help her. She needs new tools. She's a go getter. She can't afford to stay stuck. She doesn't want to get stuck. She's surrounded with people who wouldn't want to talk to her for the rest of her life, who she's known and loved all of her life and all of his career. In all honesty, it was so much more devastating that happened to her. I honestly wasn't thinking about myself. I couldn't imagine someone's making me get out of my house. People think that I was part of a scam, of stealing all these things. I think the thing Tammy had to learn, in all honesty, was to learn how to receive. If you give and you don't know how to receive, you're not really giving. Because unless you know how awkward it could be sometimes for people to receive and how to learn to be gracious, you don't really know. So Cami had to learn how to receive.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

And so Linda was there for Cami.

[Josh's Victim]

I have a room with a lot of crystals. I have beautiful crystals and big ones. And I go in this room, whether it's I meditate or I think or I just let things happen in there. I brought her in that room, which is to me, a very sacred room. When she meditates, she only looks to the future, and she asks for God to guide her and she stays true to herself. Does she sometimes break?

[Cami]

Every time she would offer me a kindness, I think, no, no, I can't take it. I. Linda, I don't feel comfortable. Like, that's too much like. And she would be like, you can't be a good giver unless you become a receiver. And I'm going to teach you how to be a receiver. And it was really. I wouldn't. Like, every time she was of kind, I would break out in tears. Like, I don't cry about Josh, but, like, it would make me cry when she was kind to me. I don't know if I didn't feel worthy or I felt guilty or I felt like a loser. Like, I didn't know what it was, but it was really hard for me to accept her kindness, and she forced it.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

And people have helped Cami, like her private school that she sent her girls to, which helped her with the tuition when she couldn't pay.

[Cami]

I called the kids schools, and I was like, I don't know what to do. And I had been a volunteer there forever, and both kids schools were like, we'll help you. We're gonna help you, Cammie. And like, that kindness makes me cry.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

Kami has tried to keep her weight under control, not seesaw with it the way she has through her life, especially at Syracuse. She doesn't have the meteor guy around anymore, and that's fine. Josh, gail's HUSBAND she went back to.

[Gail]

Focusing on Torah again, and I don't think she had started doing Shabbats again because obviously it was. She was going through a rough time. Like, it was very embarrassing.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

One of the unexpected things that's happened is that even if Josh and Cammie's family were opposed to each other in lifestyle, like we explained a couple of episodes ago, Josh is being more coarse and party hardy, and Cami's more refined with the attorney dad. They all really loved each other, and this experience has made some of them just love each other more. Much of Josh's family and Cami remain united. Gail's husband, Josh.

[Gail]

Everything goes back to us being this tight family. So no matter what happens, we're all like, let's make sure we're together. I think some people look at the story like, wait, what happened? The in laws stayed with the daughter in law that got divorced, and they don't talk to the son.

[Josh's Brother-in-law]

This is when Cammie come to Florida to visit my parents and stay with my parents. People are like, wait, what? You're staying at your in laws parents? And we're like, yep, that's. That's how this family rolls.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

And now Cami is trying to help other women avoid what happened to her. She's actually trying to help them find true love. Yes. She's starting over as a matchmaker. Through Linda, she met Aliza Ben Shalom, the Jewish matchmaker who's had a Netflix show and a huge following.

[Cami]

Aliza said to me, why don't you, you know, you're a really good matchmaker, actually. Like, you're really good. I am a natural matchmaker. I love listening to people's stories. Love it. Like you're listening to me and my story, and I love it. I believe in coaching more than matchmaking because I think that the mentality shifts when you start spending a Ton of money on your matchmaker. What are you? What do you want? What do you need? And what's a bother? You can live with knowing that everyone's going to have something That's a bother. And if I help you move that boulder in front of you, you will find your person. I built my own curriculum with Aleeza's wisdom mixed in. So I start off with every matchmaking client. I will not matchmake or take anyone on unless they agree to do six sessions with me. 1. We start off pretend I have a magic basement. And in my magic basement, I can build for you the perfect person. How tall is he? Where does he live? What does he do? What's his ages like all of these things, like what she do and we build it. And then I say, I have to break it to you. I don't have a magic basement. You can have some of those things. And I hope that, like, listen, I hope you have all of those things, but most likely those are going to be a sliding scale. But what is the most important to me is I'm going to give you a list of 50 values. I'm going to give you that list of values. You're going to say, check, please. I want them all, because what's the value? I want somebody who's smart, funny, sophisticated, hard working, family oriented. Give me 50. 50. 50, like wonderful things. Check please. Out of this list of 50, give me your top five and we talk about it. So if someone says, I want somebody who is smart, what does smart mean to you? Is smart street smart? Is smart book smart? What is smart? Is smart somebody who is wise? Like tell me, define what that looks like. That you can't live without someone who is smart when you say you know. So for me, one of my values is I wanted somebody who is financially stable. What does that mean? Does that mean that person, you know, for me, somebody who's financial state financially stable, does not have debt, pays their credit card bill off on time, someone who doesn't spend irresponsibly. Right. For someone else, it could be that financial stability is millions and millions of dollars in the bank. I have no to me, that can all go away. Being in a relationship that obviously was unhealthy, even though it was on the surface healthy. That is what it is. But finding your, you know, in case of emergency, human is a special thing and can be a beautiful thing. If it's the wrong person, it's a gilded cage. It's so much better to be alone than with the wrong person.

[Vanessa Gregoriadas]

That's it for? From Khan to Cupid. Thank you so much to Cammie for sharing her story. This is the first time she has talked about this publicly. Next week, we'll be talking about Trad Wives, which is all the controversy these days. And we're also going to hear from the matchmaker that Cammie works for, Elisa Benchalone, with a Netflix show about how dating works in more traditional Jewish communities, modernized for today, like how she expects people she works with to go out on five dates before touching at all. So before we leave, a big shout out to Lily Houston Smith, our senior producer, who did the lion's share of the reporting for this story and traveled to Pennsylvania to interview Cami in person. Thanks so much for listening to our show. Please tell a friend if you liked it. It really helps us reach more people. And see you next week to talk about Trad W.