Is Kid Rock a Rebel or a Troll?

Summary

Infamous Podcast Episode Summary: "Is Kid Rock a Rebel or a Troll?"

Release Date: May 29, 2025
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Gabriel Sherman, Natalie Robehmed
Produced by Campside Media & Sony Music Entertainment

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Introduction

In this episode of Infamous, the team delves into the controversial and multifaceted persona of Kid Rock. Once celebrated as a dynamic fusion artist blending hip hop, metal, and country, Kid Rock has, in recent years, become a polarizing figure due to his outspoken political stances and provocative actions. The episode explores whether Kid Rock remains an American rebel with genuine convictions or has transformed into a deliberate provocateur—or "troll."

Background on Kid Rock

Natasha, one of the hosts, sets the stage by reminiscing about Kid Rock's rise to fame in the 2000s. Known for his distinctive look—long, dirty blonde hair, oversized sunglasses, and a charismatic stage presence—Kid Rock was once a staple in mainstream music magazines like Rolling Stone. His early career was marked by high-energy performances and a reputation for being both talented and, at times, abrasive.

Natasha:
“He fused all kinds of music together. Hip hop, metal, and country. He was signed to a label at 17 years old. Just a really talented guy. Very funny, great stage presence.” [00:49]

However, Kid Rock's image has shifted dramatically over the past decade. His increasing involvement in political discourse, particularly his alignment with conservative and pro-MAGA narratives, has overshadowed his musical contributions. Actions such as denouncing Oprah Winfrey for her political endorsements and engaging in publicized acts of protest have fueled debates about his true motivations and authenticity.

David Pisner's Exploration

To gain deeper insight, the podcast features an interview with David Pisner, a respected writer known for his work with Rolling Stone and his book on the TV show In Living Color. Pisner authored a revealing piece on Kid Rock, offering a closer look at the man behind the headlines.

Natasha:
“So this week on Infamous, we have David Pisner, who is an amazing writer. He wrote a book about 'In Living Color' that you should definitely check out. [...] And he also wrote an incredibly iconic story about Kid Rock for Rolling Stone. That's what we're going to discuss today.” [05:23]

Challenges in Interviewing Kid Rock

Pisner recounts his initial reluctance to pursue the story, doubting the interest level from a liberal-leaning magazine like Rolling Stone:

David Pisner:
“Initially, I was pretty resistant to the idea. [...] I figured there's no way he's going to talk to me. So it's just going to be like, oh, me talking to whoever I can get to talk to me.” [08:17]

Despite these reservations, Pisner's personal connections—both he and Kid Rock hail from similar Detroit suburbs—eventually paved the way for the interview. However, securing a sit-down with Kid Rock proved challenging, as initial attempts to contact his team went unanswered.

Inside the Interview

When Pisner finally meets Kid Rock at his opulent estate in Tennessee, the encounter is both surreal and intense. The mansion, designed to mimic the White House but embellished with kitschy, over-the-top decor, sets an odd backdrop for what was supposed to be a routine interview.

David Pisner:
“The house is absurd. It looks like sort of a 12-year-old boy's idea of what a rich person's house should look like or something. Like, it's just, you know, like, goofy.” [21:05]

Initially cordial, the atmosphere shifts as political tensions rise. Kid Rock becomes increasingly confrontational, challenging Pisner on various topics ranging from immigration to media biases.

Confrontation and Tension

As the interview progresses, Pisner describes the escalation into a heated exchange:

David Pisner:
“I would ask him about things he said, you know, about politics. And we would argue a bit. And he was definitely trying to pick fights with me.” [25:33]

The situation intensifies when Kid Rock, visibly affected by alcohol, introduces a handgun into the conversation, heightening the sense of unpredictability and danger.

David Pisner:
“He pulls out a black handgun and says, 'I got guns everywhere.'” [30:12]

Despite the tension, Pisner maintains his composure, focusing on factual counterpoints rather than ideological debates. The interaction teeters on the edge of physical confrontation, reflecting Kid Rock's tumultuous persona.

Resolution and Reflections

Ultimately, Pisner manages to extricate himself from the precarious situation, though not without lingering discomfort:

David Pisner:
“I was really thinking, am I being held here? [...] I gotta get out of here.” [30:46]

Post-interview, communication with Kid Rock smooths over, indicating a complex relationship between the journalist and the musician. Pisner's story, published in Rolling Stone, presents Kid Rock as a blend of genuine passion and performative provocation.

Natasha:
“He comes off as this really bizarre melange [...] a really complicated, really interesting portrait.” [35:27]

Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes by pondering Kid Rock's true nature:

• Performance vs. Authenticity: Is Kid Rock's provocative behavior a calculated performance to stay relevant, or does it reflect his genuine beliefs and frustrations?

• Media Manipulation: Kid Rock's interactions with various media outlets, especially Rolling Stone, highlight his strategic engagement with public perception.

• Cultural Shifts: His alignment with conservative politics contrasts sharply with his earlier image, mirroring broader cultural and political shifts in America.

Natasha:
“I wonder how much of Kid Rock's persona now is a performance. [...] Or maybe it's a blending of the two where the character he's played for so long has become who he really is.” [35:27]

Conclusion

This episode of Infamous offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of Kid Rock's transformation from a beloved artist to a contentious public figure. Through David Pisner's firsthand account, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities behind Kid Rock's actions and statements, prompting reflections on the nature of celebrity, politics, and media in contemporary society.

For those interested in reading Pisner's detailed Rolling Stone piece on Kid Rock, a link is provided in the show notes.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, promotional content, and non-relevant sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions and insights presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

Campsite Media Starting escort service for all the right reasons and set up shop at the top of four seasons. Kid rockin. I'm the real McCoy and I'm headed out west because I wanna be a cowboy, baby.

[Natasha]

Welcome back to Infamous. And yes, that was Kid Rock. You may remember him as one of the biggest stars of the 2000s, with that long, dirty blonde hair, the big sunglass pimp swagger. He fused all kinds of music together. Hip hop, metal and country. He was signed to a label at 17 years old. Just a really talented guy. Very funny, great stage presence. That was Bob Richie then. And there was definitely an undercurrent of asshole collary and what he was doing. He called women all the time and stuff like that, but the music was pretty good. In recent years, though, he's become very political, very controversial. Some of what he's up to I support, like his campaign to try to get Ticketmaster broken up. If you've been to a concert recently, you know how completely absurd the tickets are and all the ridiculous fees.

[David Pisner]

Anyone who's bought a concert ticket in the last decade, maybe 20 years, no matter what your politics are, knows that it's a conundrum. You buy a ticket for 100 bucks. By the time you check out, it's 170. You don't know what you can charge for. But more importantly, these bots, you know, they come in to get all the good tickets to your favorite shows you want to go to, and then they're relisted immediately for sometimes a 4 or 500% markup.

[Natasha]

So, yeah, I don't think you can argue with that. But some of the other stuff that Kid Rock has done has been quite performative and very weird, like denouncing Oprah for endorsing John Fetterman for Senate because he wanted Dr. Oz to win. Just being really vociferous about that. He's also said that ugly women, particularly liberal women, are the reason that birth rates are so low in our country. And he got slapped by Dolly Parton's sister for that. Or he shot a bunch of Bud Light cans to protest Bud Light using a transgender woman in an ad and he shot them with a machine gun. He's just turned into a constant provocateur, almost like a troll, which does make sense for our era of utre sensibilities, but can also be exhausting. I don't know about you, but I like my artists without the political rigmarole.

[David Pisner]

We the people and all we do, reserve the right to scream, fuck you, wear your mask, take your pills. Now a whole generation's mentally ill.

[Natasha]

So we wanted to discuss Kid Rock now because he's in the news constantly. Like just a couple weeks ago, even though he's super anti immigration is bar in Nashville. His, like, honky Tonk shut down because ICE was in town and they were worried. And basically the whole kitchen sounds like it was full of people who would not have been okay if ICE came in. So I happen to know a writer who had an experience that, let's say, was interesting with Kid Rock, and I thought we would invite him on to talk about it. Is Kid Rock an American badass with a heart of gold, or is he something far more complicated? Let's get the interview rolling and we will figure out what there is to say about Kid Rock. Thanks so much for listening.

[David Pisner]

People don't know about the things I say they do. They don't understand about the shift that I.

[Natasha]

So this week on Infamous, we have David Pisner, who is an amazing writer. He wrote a book about In Living Color that you should definitely check out. Homie don't play that. And he also wrote an incredibly iconic story about Kid Rock for Rolling Stone. That's what we're going to discuss today. So at Rolling Stone, which I worked for for many years, Kid Rock was sort like a staple. He was one of the guys who got covered all the time from 2000 on until, I don't know, maybe whatever, five years ago or so. I mean, he was never going to be Dylan. He was never going to be Hendrix, somebody that the magazine could publish about over and over. But early on, Kid Rock seemed like a relatively fun person. Tell me a little bit about how he grew up.

[David Pisner]

Well, Kid Rock grew up in town called Romeo, which is. It's described as a Detroit suburb, but I would have probably said it was beyond the suburbs of Detroit. His dad owned a car dealership, was the head of the. I think it was called the Detroit Automobile Dealers Association. He was kind of a wealthy car salesman, basically. So he grew up in the Detroit suburbs. And, you know, when he was a teenager, started hanging out, you know, actually in downtown Detroit and getting involved in the hip hop scene down there.

[Natasha]

He started, like, went to Michigan State and was a business major and his mom was a freshman there. They got married, she was a cheerleader. She immediately drops out of school to bring up the family. And they would have, like, barn parties, right, where they would play music on the boombox and they would play like Bad, Bad Leroy Brown. And he would lip sync to it.

[David Pisner]

And it's Bad, Bad Leroy Brown, the baddest man in the whole damn town.

[Natasha]

And formatively and sadly, his brother fell off of his dad's tractor and lost his leg when he was nine years old. And Kid Rock has said that that made him almost try to get more attention because even though he felt compassion for his brother, his brother ended up becoming, like, central to the family. I also love that his crew, when he started doing music was called the Furious Funkers, were his little, like, rap group in high school, like, got sponsored by the local Burger King. So you write in your piece. Whether he was performing with Run dmc, briefly marrying Pamela Anderson, or getting into a fight at a Waffle House at 5am, Kid Rock's very existence felt like a hundred decibel reminder that rock and roll was supposed to be fun. Rolling Stone itself was all in on this version of Kid Rock twice, putting him on the magazine's cover solo and declaring him the king of old school party. Take no prisoners, boasting. So what happened? Rolling Stone assigned you a story. This was 2024.

[David Pisner]

Rolling Stone had emailed me, and I've been freelancing for them for many, many years. And an editor over there had emailed me about this story about, you know, we want to do something about how Kid Rock has become this MAGA mouthpiece. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Kid Rock. What up, America? If you're ready for President Trump to take the stage, I need everybody to stand up. I need everybody to put a fist up in the air. Everybody get a fist up in the air. I mean, if I'm being honest, initially I was pretty resistant to the idea.

[Natasha]

Why is that?

[David Pisner]

Well, I mean, there are a couple of reasons. One was it just didn't seem that interesting to me. I guess initially, the way Kid Rock had become such a Trump world figure and Rolling Stone's reputation as being sort of this liberal magazine. I figured there's no way he's going to talk to me. So it's just going to be like, oh, me talking to Whoever I can get to talk to me. And then I'm going to write some story and it's going to be exactly what everyone thinks it's going to be. But, you know, being a freelancer and like, I never. I didn't say no. I'm pretty sure what I said was, like, which was true. Like, look, I've got a lot of stuff on my plate right now. I probably wouldn't be able to get to this for several months. And that was kind of my way of figuring they're going to be like, all right, we'll just give this to somebody else.

[Natasha]

But, yeah, that's always the move. Like, oh, you know, it's not you, it's me.

[David Pisner]

Right. But I did have some thoughts about Kid Rock because we grew up pretty much in the same. You know, we were both living in the northern suburbs of Detroit. It was the same time. And. And I kind of had like, what I would call theories about, like, why he was the way he was. Because I. I did grow up with people, they weren't like Kid Rock, but that sort of weird romanticism about the south and country music. Like, I remember in high school, guys who like, rode around in pickup trucks with like Confederate flag bumper stickers on the back and listening to country music.

[Natasha]

Why is that in Detroit?

[David Pisner]

I think there is a certain element of it. It's just like high school kids looking for some sort of identity. But, you know, you look into it a bit more and there is like a tie between Detroit and both Appalachian parts of the south, going back kind of the beginning of the auto industry. And that's where, you know, the auto industry was finding workers sort of more famously that, you know, black workers rushed to Detroit in droves.

[Natasha]

Like, when you mean the 1920s or.

[David Pisner]

This would be like all the way from probably the 20s up through the 50s.

[Natasha]

Oh, okay.

[David Pisner]

Even into the 60s. These were good paying factory jobs. These were middle class jobs. And so a lot of people came from Appalachia, a lot of people came from the South. So I think that there was some sort of generational tie to some of these things. But I guess the way I had seen it, which is a little bit more superficial, is I just remember seeing that stuff in high school. And then I remember, you know, there's the whole sort of Ted Nugent thing, which Ted Nugent is another sort of paleo, conservative weirdo rock star who's become more famous for just essentially being an asshole. I got you on a stranglehold Baby, you gotta cross your face.

[Natasha]

I mean, it Goes along with Pamela Anderson. I mean, I didn't even remember they were married, but Pamela Anderson, sort of Jessica Simpson saying, like, chicken of the sea. Is that chicken? Jenna Jamison, like, it's just Paris Hilton. It's sort of that 2000 raunch era, post grunge, as we're watching right now, and our culture metronomes back and forth and goes way too far in one direction. And this went in the beers and boobs. And that's when he was at his height, is my understanding.

[David Pisner]

Yeah, that's without a doubt true. And I mean, I would say of a lot of the music that became popular during that era, Limp Bizkit and Korn and stuff like that. I mean, I would actually say that I probably liked Kid Rock probably a little bit more than that stuff.

[Natasha]

Yeah, that's very true.

[David Pisner]

You know, I wrote for, like, Maxim and magazines like that. They paid well. And so, I mean, it was like. Yeah, I mean, that was a big part of the culture. And he was certainly like a kind of headline creation of that culture.

[Natasha]

And he was also funny. Ish. You know, he was funny where it's like, ran an escort service for all the wrong reasons. What are the right reasons to run an escort service? They're just ridiculous, whether wittingly or unwittingly. And there was a sense that this guy was in on the joke and possibly because he was also from Detroit. Right. I'm not sure about the racial politics, but I had a feeling, like, and this could have been my own projection, that this guy understood that he was playing the role of a white trash southern character, but he wasn't actually that person. And it was okay. He was doing it because he was sort of poking fun at it.

[David Pisner]

I mean, I don't know that it was ever a joke. Like, he would have owned up to. I mean, he certainly did own up to the fact that he didn't grow up in a trailer park. He grew up in, like, a very, very nice.

[Natasha]

Yeah, very middle class, if not upper middle class.

[David Pisner]

I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't middle class. I mean, I've seen pictures of the house. I mean, it's like an estate. You know, he had, like, tennis courts and, you know, pools. I mean, like, there was, like, horse stables. I mean, he.

[Natasha]

Okay, so he was like the rich kid. He was the rich white kid and he was wealthy.

[David Pisner]

This isn't Eminem's story. Like, Eminem did not have money. Was like growing up in a completely different milieu. So I think he knew that he was acting. I think he got the joke without really thinking too much about what it meant, if that makes any sense.

[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

I started sort of rolling out these stories. They didn't even know I had grown up in Detroit. And you know, I started talking about what the music scene was like there. And I think I accidentally convinced them that no, no, no, that I'm the guy to do this story. And so instead of me saying, I'm not available for three or four months, you should get somebody else, they were like, all right, we'll just wait until you're ready. And so I was like, all right, I'll do it. Three or four months probably went by and then I started working on it. And I did reach out to his manager. There was no response at all. I reached out in multiple different ways and that didn't surprise me. That's the way I thought this was going to go. And so I started reaching out to other people. Most of the people really close to him weren't even getting back to me. His former band members would get back to me. He was like, you know, so that was kind of like the level of people I was talking to. Ex lawyer, former band member, former manager, people like that.

[Natasha]

But I mean, why is he so pissed at Rolling Stone? Whether he's MAGA or not, Rolling Stone is the ultimate music magazine.

[David Pisner]

I don't think he was actually pissed at Rolling Stone at that point. And he told me this, we had this discussion. When I finally did meet him, he was just like, oh, I just don't need it. And to some extent he's correct. I mean, he operates in a completely different media universe from Rolling Stone these days. Rolling Stone's readers are not really his fans anymore.

[Natasha]

He's smart enough to know that the magazine has like a liberal leaning. He's also, we will talk about, pretty thin skinned guy. So if he felt like it wasn't going to be straight applause, he's not there for it, right?

[David Pisner]

So I basically not only reported, I wrote this whole story without him. I wrote the whole thing. It was done. It was completely done. And then I think as we were getting ready to edit it, they said, oh, why don't you reach out to him one more time. And I was like, like in my head I was like, I'm done with this story. So I was really kind of like, fine, I'll do it. And I went and I, I reached out to his manager one more time and this time they, he got right back to me and was like, yeah, you know, why don't you come and meet us at Bob's house for 90 minute interview. This was maybe two days away or something. And I was like, oh, okay. I guess this is happening.

[Natasha]

Wow, okay. And so what, what do you think tipped the scale?

[David Pisner]

I think the main thing was, is in that three or four months they had announced that he was doing this Rock the Country tour. What up? Everybody also wanted to pump up the Rock and Rodeo, which is this Friday at AT&T Stadium. He had put together this tour of sort of small towns in the south that you know, he was going to bring this tour to. And so he, at this point he was in sort of promotion mode. So I think that was part of it. So, like, the other part is that I think deep down he does want the approval of the Rolling Stones of the world. Like you were saying, he's thin skinned, but he really cares what people think about him, and he really wants that acceptance. Oh, well, they're paying attention to me again, at least. And then, you know, I think there was also this element of, at worst, I'm gonna, like, make this reporter's life miserable. It was gonna be like a really contentious story. And then he was gonna be able to go back to this sort of Fox News universe and be like, liberal media bias this. You know, they're trying to cancel me that.

[Natasha]

Right. Or he was gonna get press out of it. But it's interesting that you don't think that there was a third option, which is he thought he was gonna charm you.

[David Pisner]

No, I think there was that possibility in his head, maybe. Because I do think he really did care what I thought, what Rolling Stone thought, what Rolling Stone's readers think, because he's a narcissist, he's an egomaniac.

[Natasha]

He basically says to you that he felt like his life became a gotcha moment, right? Like, and people were coming for him. And he's not wrong about that. In the first kind of Trump iteration, people really came for him in a way that is sort of shocking now when you see that the conservatives are now on top. And he. He then retreated to his spread where he lives, which sounds like it's even a thousand times nicer than when he grew up. 214 acres, this beautiful deep green valley right in front of him, like a pickleball court, a pool, a this, a that. And he said to you, look around. I live in my own world. And it's great. So what happened when you drove up to, like, the gates of the mansion? Can you describe exactly what it looked like and how you felt going in there?

[David Pisner]

Sure. I drove up from Atlanta and, you know, the house is absurd. It looks like sort of a 12 year old boy's idea of what a rich person's house should look like or something. Like, it's just, you know, like, goofy.

[Natasha]

Like. What do you mean?

[David Pisner]

Like, it's designed to look like the White House. Okay, so you're.

[Natasha]

Oh, I did not know that. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

[David Pisner]

You drive to the pipe, it's in a pretty rural area of Tennessee. You drive up this fairly steep driveway, and then it's like a replica of the White House, except on the doors of the three or four garages is an image of his platinum records. There's, you know, you go inside and it's like this sort of almost white trash chic where there's like animal heads, neon beer signs, but it's, you know, it's like this giant palatial house. He's got this butler who goes by the name Uncle Tom, who is a white guy, very nice guy. He was the one who answered the door. It's like you're walking into this like kind of giant joke. And like that part of the joke he sort of gets, right? You don't make that house without thinking, like, all right, this is a little bit funny. And it is kind of a funny way to spend your money, right? So I go in and Uncle Tom the butler gets me, like, asks me if I want anything to drink. And he opens the fridge and it looks like a commercial for Miller Lite. There's a bunch of Miller Lite cans and Bob's sitting out and back. Kid Rock sitting out and back. And it's got charcuterie board. It's like, very nice.

[Natasha]

So when you first look at him, are you like, wow, this guy looks real old, or are you like, huh, this guy's good looking and charismatic and like, you know, how did you feel in those first few moments?

[David Pisner]

I mean, he looks older, but I mean, I'm not gonna throw shade on him for looking his age. He's like a little. I think he's 53 or 54. So we look like a couple of middle aged guys sitting out there.

[Natasha]

But it's very nice that he gave you some cheese and salamis. He didn't serve you like nails, you know. No, but wait, so he. Is he welcoming? Is he like. Yeah, let me show you around. Like, yeah, okay.

[David Pisner]

Yeah, so initially it's very friendly. He actually had read one of my other recent stories in Rolling Stone and was like commenting about it. And then we were talking a little bit about Detroit and growing up there and a lot Detroit sports stuff. And I mean, it's kind of like if you're in any of those situations where you're trying to do a profile of somebody, you're like, oh, this is the way I want this to go. It's very kind of relaxed and friendly and we're just bantering and it was fine. But, you know, and then I started interviewing him and obviously got a little bit more contentious at that point.

[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

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[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

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[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

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[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

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[Natasha]

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[David Pisner]

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[David Pisner]

Song and I'll start to sing along and think, man, I love.

[Natasha]

So you guys start getting into it about politics. Even though you don't really want to talk to him about politics, you start to fight basically because you're very liberal and he's not.

[David Pisner]

This is kind of going on for hours.

[Natasha]

So like, okay, so you're sitting outside, you're drinking. Also, you're drinking sitting outside. It's beautiful.

[David Pisner]

I probably had a. I probably had three beers. Two or three beers like Miller Lite. I'm sober basically. He is gradually becoming less and less sober. He was drinking white wine and then there's a point where it really turns. I mean when I'm sort of kind of interviewing him. I spent like probably two hours, two and a half hours interviewing him on that back patio and we got into it some during that interview. I would ask him about things he said, you know, about politics. And we would Argue a bit. And he was definitely trying to pick fights with me, but, I mean, it wasn't that extreme for me. I mean, he would get up and, like, start shouting and being in my face, but I kind of felt like he thinks there's cameras on him all the time, even when there aren't. And so it got testy. And I would push back, but I was always just trying to push back and trying to, like, make what I thought to be cogent, factual points. I wasn't really trying to be too ideological about it. And he just always had, like, three lines in his head that he probably heard on Hannity or from Tucker Carlson. And he had about two or three sentences about everything. And once I sort of pushed deeper, he would just kind of change the subject or he didn't really.

[Natasha]

You were winning, basically. You were winning.

[David Pisner]

I don't even want to say I was winning. I just think he just. It was actually, like, just incredibly frustrating. And I was basically done and ready to go home after about two. Two and a half hours, right? We were supposed to have 90 minutes. 90 minutes came and went. He wasn't looking at his watch. He didn't seem to want to wrap up. And so we kept going. So maybe we're talking two and a half hours. And then he was like, oh, you should stay. I'm doing this Fox News hit. Like, the van just got here. And so there's this, like, white van in his driveway.

[Natasha]

Oh, weird.

[David Pisner]

And he was like, come on, come on. Come. Come in the back with me and watch me do this.

[Natasha]

Wait, wait. So the van set up like a little, like, control room, or it's set up where it looks like a fake living room. And he's sitting in front of it.

[David Pisner]

It's just like a mobile studio. And I think the guy in the van is probably just a freelancer for Fox. But literally, you open this dark, windowless van, door slides open, and there's like, a camera set up, and there's like, a fake backdrop. And he's sitting in a chair, and it's a. I mean, it's a van, but it's small. And he insists on me coming in the van with him. And so I'm like, I don't want to be on camera here.

[Natasha]

But you're, like, squeezed in.

[David Pisner]

Exactly. I'm, like, squeezed just out of the shape shot. And he's doing this thing for Laura Ingram, and I'm just, like, sitting there. She's teeing him up for whatever they're talking about, the upcoming election, etcetera. I'm just jammed in the corner there, and I'm thinking, all right, whatever, this is weird. Maybe this will be a funny bit that I can put in the story. Then I'm going home. And so we get out of the van after this is maybe 15, 20 minutes, and he's like, oh, you got to hear my new music. All right, I gotta get on the road. But, yeah, sure. Like, I didn't. He's like, all right, well, let's go down to my studio, which is like a half mile, three quarters of a mile away. We hop in this, like, golf cart, we drive down to the studio. Then we get in the studio, and he starts making, like, Jim Beam and Diet Coke at this point. And he's kind of getting drunk, and he can't figure out how to hook his iPhone to the studio speakers. And I'm like, okay, maybe I can get away with not having to hear the new music. He's like, oh, we'll just listen to it on my phone. And honestly, like, the songs are fine. They're not political. They're kind of like country, rockish songs. So we listen to them, and I'm like, all right, well, thanks. And I'm, like, wrapping up. And now we're sitting in, like, this kind of lounge area outside his studio. And he's like, oh, well, I want to show you some. Some. Some videos. And I'm like, well, I kind of really got to be going. And it's kind of, you know, getting a little bit uncomfortable just in that he's famous and he wants me to stay here to watch YouTube videos with him. Like, I don't know, it was weird. And I really, genuinely did need to leave. And so he's like, ah, just to watch one video. And we must have watched 15 videos. 10. 15 videos every one. He's like, no, we gotta watch one more. And I kept being like, I gotta go, I gotta go. And in between all this, he's just bringing up more things for us to argue about. We're talking about Trump. We're talking about whatever's in the news now. It's starting to get pretty caustic.

[Natasha]

He's so mad that he's like, let me tell you how much money I got. I got 370.

[David Pisner]

Well, I mean, I don't even want to say he was mad. He's into it, but he's, like, drunk. But it's almost. Some of. It's a little bit playful. Yeah, I think we were talking about security or something, and maybe immigration, and he Reaches behind his chair. He's sitting in this, like, big leather chair, and he reaches behind his chair and he pulls out, like, a black handgun. And he's like, and I got guns everywhere. And he starts, like, waving it around. And I'm like. I'm like, what the hell is going on? I didn't feel like he was gonna shoot me or anything, but I just was like, what? Like.

[Natasha]

But did you not feel at all that he was gonna shoot you?

[David Pisner]

No, I really didn't.

[Natasha]

You didn't feel a little scared with a drunk man with a gun?

[David Pisner]

Well, okay, yes. Anytime you're on alcohol and guns, it's not great. But at that point I was really thinking, how am I going to get out of here? I did start thinking in my head is like, am I being held here against my will? Because I kept saying, look, I got to go. I got to drive back to Atlanta tonight. And he was sort of being friendly and be like, no, no, just stay here tonight. You don't need to drive back. I got a room for you. And I was like, oh, that's really nice, but I can't stay. And this was. It was like this circular conversation where it just kept going on and on. And finally I was like, no, dude, I gotta go. I'm leaving. And by this point, it's like, you know, nine or ten o' clock at night, and I can't. Like, he's like, you're not gonna never gonna find your way back to your car. Which was probably somewhat true because, you know, it's like a different part of the property. And he. So I, like, at that point, I'm starting to think, am I being held here? How do I get out of here? I gotta get out of here. I'm not staying in the night here. And I did think, is this the way he wants this to go? Does he want us to fight? Because he did at one point say, like, do you think you could whoop me?

[Natasha]

Yeah. And he's been to jail, right, for beating people up. I mean, he's sort of known to get into brawls.

[David Pisner]

Yeah. And, like, I don't know if he thought, like, oh, this will be great for the story. Me fighting with the writer on the floor of my studio. Like, I did start thinking about that. And I was like, it honestly felt a little bit like he thought there were reality show cameras on us. It felt very performative. And so we argued a bunch. I don't think it ever. Well, I don't want to say it didn't ever come Close to us getting in a fight, but it was a little bit close. We were sort of nose to nose, you know, I don't know. It was bizarre. It was bizarre.

[Natasha]

So how did you get out of there?

[David Pisner]

Well, eventually I just said, well, I'm leaving and I'm going to start walking. I can get. You know, because it was like at least 30 or 40 minutes of me just being like, I gotta go now. And then he did say it was shortly after he asked if I thought I could whoop him. And I was like, look, man, I gotta go. And so I basically was just threatening to just walk. And he eventually sort of was like, fine, I'll give you a ride back. And so he gave me a ride back, and it was pretty awkward. We were riding back up to the main house, and he was still kind of, like, trying to pick fights, but I feel like he had kind of given up by this point. And we got up there and I was like, I'm just getting out of here. But then he was like. He pulled me close, like, right before I left. First he said, like, oh, just tell people I was halfway cool. Like, he did care what I thought, what people thought. And then he said, oh, write the worst story you can about me or write the worst you can about me, because it's just going to help me. And that was sort of like confirming what I had thought before about, like, oh, he just wants this contentious story. And I don't even really know what the whole truth is, except that I did talk to him again after I left. I talked to him on the phone. I was trying to do some fact checking, and so I was trying to do it with his manager. And then Bob just called me himself. And so I thought, oh, God, this is going to be weird. But it wasn't. He was totally friendly when we talked to him. This is maybe three weeks later or two weeks later or something like that. He was like, oh, hey, how you doing, man? Blah, blah, blah. Like, we were just old buddies and.

[Natasha]

Just another night in his life, right?

[David Pisner]

And he was actually very helpful with the fact checking. And I had a couple, like, things other people had said that I wanted to get comments about. And he was very helpful. And. And then I heard through the grapevine that he. That he really liked the story after it came out, so.

[Natasha]

Wow. Yeah. I mean, really, it's a fascinating portrait of a person right in America today. And the way that you wrote it is just so artful. So everybody should check out this story, which was in Rolling Stone. And we'll have a link to it in the show notes. And I would just say in the end, he comes off as this really bizarre melange. Right. Of a guy who used to say things like, tipper Gore is my whore, right back when he called Bill Clinton a pimp. And he has always played with these political people and is into like, politics as entertainment. And this moment is just a moment where a person like that can totally shine. And this really sad, angry human being who you really get to the heart of. It's a really complicated, really interesting portrait. So, yeah, I think everybody should check it out. Thanks so much for coming on to Infamous.

[David Pisner]

Well, thanks for having me.

[Natasha]

That's it for our conversation with David Pisner. It's rare in this day and age to get the sort of access David got, and it resulted in a really fascinating snapshot. I do wonder how much of Kid Rock's Persona now is a performance. Just like he performed being a white trash character despite growing up rich, now he's performing being this right wing political provocateur. Or is this just a way for him to stay in the news? I mean, he's more than 10 years out from a hit and most people would have forgotten who he was if he hadn't hitched his wagon to Fox News. Or maybe it's a blending of the two where the character he's played for so long has become who he really is. That's it for Infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. Friends, if you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at natrob. That's N A T R O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book, Blurred Lines Rethinking Sex, Power and Consent on Campus. See you next week.