Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets | Part 4

Summary

Podcast Summary: Infamous

Episode: Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets | Part 4

Date: October 2, 2025
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Natalie Robehmed
Featuring: Jose Lambier, Thomas Volschaux, Virginia Giuffre, Ghislaine Maxwell

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Overview of the Episode

This fourth installment of "Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets" focuses on Jeffrey Epstein’s 2019 arrest, the questions surrounding his death, and the ensuing shift of scrutiny onto Ghislaine Maxwell. The episode explores the aftermath of Epstein’s highly publicized fall, delving into allegations, conspiracy theories, victim testimonies, and the mysterious dynamics involving powerful individuals whose names appeared in Epstein’s inner circle. The hosts guide listeners through the chain reaction set off by new investigations and the media storm, culminating in Maxwell’s conviction and reflections on unresolved secrets.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Epstein’s Arrest and the Renewed Investigation

• Epstein returns to the U.S. in 2019, believing he’s above indictment due to his past legal escapes.
  • “He didn’t really face consequences in Palm Beach. Why would this be any different?” – Natalie Robehmed [00:53]
• The Miami Herald’s 2018 investigation by Julie K. Brown becomes a turning point, spurring federal action.
• Epstein is arrested at Teterboro Airport by a joint FBI-NYPD task force after surveillance revealed his movements contradicted his travel declarations.
  • “They board his aircraft, announce his charges and arrest him.” – Thomas Volschaux [10:42]
• Charged with sex trafficking and conspiracy, Epstein is denied bail and placed in a grim Manhattan prison, the Metropolitan Correctional Center.

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2. The Role of Victims and Media

• Virginia Giuffre (Roberts) goes public in 2011, alleging she was trafficked to Prince Andrew and claiming Ghislaine Maxwell facilitated the abuse.
  • “You’re gonna meet a prince today... I knew I had to keep him happy because that’s what Jeffrey and Ghislaine would expect from me.” – Virginia Giuffre [03:29]
• Mainstream U.S. attention lags behind the UK, where the scandal damages Prince Andrew’s reputation.
• Media figures recall the intensity and resistance to reporting on Epstein, with attempts to intimidate journalists and kill stories.
  • “Epstein shows up in the editor’s office... He’s trying to intimidate her.” – Thomas Volschaux [06:54]

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3. Powerful Friends and Guilt by Association

• Despite his conviction, Epstein maintains relationships with high-status individuals, including Bill Gates and Ehud Barak—individuals who deny knowledge of his crimes.
• The episode discusses the circulation of Epstein’s “little black book” and flight logs and cautions against blanket assumptions:
  • “You have to be very careful... it doesn’t mean that every name is a broken individual.” – Jose Lambier [18:53]

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4. Epstein’s Death: Suicide or Conspiracy?

• Epstein is found dead in his cell in August 2019 after a first suicide attempt. The night of his death, protocols are inexplicably broken:
  • Guards fail to check on him, his cellmate is transferred, CCTV footage is missing.
• Ghislaine Maxwell casts doubt on the suicide narrative:
  • “I do not believe he died by suicide.” – Ghislaine Maxwell [13:20]
  • “In prison where I am... they will kill you—or somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.” – Ghislaine Maxwell [13:36]
• Thomas Volschaux disagrees, describing the scene as textbook suicide given Epstein’s situation and high risk as a child predator.
  • “His prison cell looks like a textbook suicide that you find in a prison... where somebody ties a bunch of ligatures out of bed sheets and hangs themself from a bunk bed.” – Thomas Volschaux [14:08]

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5. The Shift to Ghislaine Maxwell

• After Epstein’s death, attention turns to Maxwell. She briefly resurfaces in LA in a photo with a book on CIA operatives—possibly signaling deeper conspiracies—then disappears again until her arrest in July 2020.
• Virginia Giuffre intensifies her accusations:
  • “She’s worse than Epstein. She did things even worse than Epstein did. She was vicious, she was evil, and she was a woman... she was the mastermind.” – Virginia Giuffre [15:15]
• Maxwell’s trial and conviction are recounted; the evidence is described as “not particularly strong,” yet she is sentenced to 20 years.

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6. The “Mythic” Documents & Blackmail Theories

• Epstein’s flight logs and birthday book fuel conspiracies about the extent of elite involvement—names like Clinton, Trump, Kevin Spacey, Larry Summers.
• Insight into the “birthday book” with bizarre and inappropriate messages and artwork, including notes from Clinton and a mock screenplay from Trump.
• Maxwell is questioned about whether presidents engaged in sexual activity or received massages. She denies witnessing anything illicit.
  • “I don’t believe [Clinton] did... I don’t believe there was ever a massage on the plane.” – Ghislaine Maxwell [22:38]
  • “Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me... I like him, and I’ve always liked him.” – Ghislaine Maxwell [23:13]

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7. Was Epstein Blackmailing the Rich and Powerful?

• The podcast examines the theory that Epstein generated kompromat (compromising material) for leverage over his high-powered associates.
• Cameras in Epstein’s Manhattan apartment could have collected footage for blackmail, but no tapes have been publicly released.
  • “To me, Epstein seems like an operator... someone who is in turn charming and manipulative, who will stop at nothing to advance in the world.” – Vanessa Grigoriadis [26:16]
• The Bill Gates relationship is cited as a case where Epstein may have sought to gain influence via private information.

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8. Ghislaine’s Denials and Excuses

• Maxwell repeatedly minimizes or denies her involvement, blaming Epstein’s behavior on testosterone therapy and likening the social environment to “Sex and the City.”
  • “I don't think the man I met is the man that he became... he started doing testosterone, and that altered his character.” – Ghislaine Maxwell [28:36]

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9. Legacy, Unanswered Questions, and Epilogue

• Virginia Giuffre died by suicide in April 2025; her memoir is forthcoming.
• Epstein remains a symbol of unfinished business and public suspicion; his notoriety persists as new information surfaces or recirculates.
  • “The years may come and go, but every so often he’s going to pop back into the news and the whole country will wait and watch for the... truth.” – Natalie Robehmed [32:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Virginia Giuffre on Epstein & Maxwell:
  “She’s worse than Epstein... she was the mastermind.” [15:15]
• Ghislaine Maxwell on the Prince Andrew photo:
  “The idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house... is so mind blowingly not conceivable to me... No. Is there any way that it could have happened? No.” [04:32]
• On guilt by association:
  “Be careful. Not everybody needs to be painting in the same light here.” – Jose Lambier [18:53]
• On blackmail and manipulation:
  “He was courting Bill Gates... Epstein informed Bill Gates that he knew that Gates had this... young Russian woman... so it’s kind of like this intimidation thing.” – Thomas Volschaux [27:09]
• On the enduring mystery:
  “But the craziest and wildest tale ended up being about his death by dying under such strange circumstances.” – Natalie Robehmed [31:51]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Epstein’s 2019 Arrest: [00:07]–[11:04]
• Virginia Giuffre’s Testimony & UK Fallout: [02:50]–[06:20]
• Media Intimidation and Killed Stories: [06:54]–[07:24]
• Feds Investigate Post–#MeToo: [09:19]–[10:22]
• Epstein’s Death & Conspiracy Theories: [12:04]–[14:46]
• Maxwell’s Pursuit, Arrest, and Trial: [15:15]–[17:05]
• Flight Logs & The “Birthday Book”: [17:05]–[22:35]
• Presidents and Epstein – Maxwell’s Responses: [22:35]–[24:16]
• Blackmail/Kompromat Discussion: [25:55]–[28:02]
• Ghislaine’s Excuses & Minimizing: [28:36]–[30:39]
• Epilogue – Giuffre’s Death & Ongoing Mysteries: [31:47]–[32:09]

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Final Thoughts & Teaser

The episode closes with a preview of the final installment, focusing on the Prince Andrew angle and unresolved threads from the Epstein saga. The tone throughout remains investigative, occasionally incredulous, and determined to separate fact from myth.

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Next episode teaser: "We’ll go deep on the case of that royal who has been semi excommunicated... Prince Andrew." [32:09]

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For anyone looking for clarity on the tangled web of Epstein’s crimes, Maxwell’s conviction, and the ongoing cultural shadows, this episode offers crucial context, direct testimony, and a sobering reminder of how power and secrecy can warp justice.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

Campsite Media.

It's a hot July afternoon in 2019. Jeffrey Epstein is in his plane, flying high, as he's done in the past with President Trump, President Clinton, all sorts of luminaries, but they're not here now. He's getting ready to land at Teterbara Airport, a private terminal about 40 minutes from Manhattan. Perhaps he looks out of the window at the New York City skyline, shimmering and shining at golden hour. Maybe he gazes out at the Hudson River. Or maybe he stares straight ahead, debating what to do now. Epstein has been spending time in France, but he will soon be landing on U.S. soil. And on that soil, federal agents are waiting because the federal government has taken notice of the sweetheart deal he was cut way back when in Florida. They've been investigating. Now they're ready to arrest and indict Jeffrey Epstein again. He could flee to Iran or another country the US doesn't have an extradition treaty with. But right now, in this plane, he comes home. Maybe he thinks he's above the law. After all, he didn't really face consequences in Palm Beach. Why would this be any different? This is an infamous miniseries. Jeffrey and Ghislaine's Secrets. I'm Natalie Robomed.

Hi. And I'm Vanessa Gregoriadas. And this is episode four. Did Epstein kill himself?

So before we explain how exactly Epstein's arrest came about and what happened after that, we need to go back in time a little bit and pick up where we left off. In the late 2000s, Epstein's Palm beach case resulted in a pretty cushy deal for him. He signed a non prosecution agreement, which meant he pled guilty to lesser state charges to avoid federal ones, and served a very light prison sentence. But from a prosecutorial standpoint, one good thing did come out of this deal. Epstein was forced to register as a sex offender.

[Jose Lambier]

I followed him quite a bit on the website of sex offenders here in Florida.

[Narrator/Host]

That's Jose Lambier, a former Palm Beach Post reporter turned private investigator.

[Jose Lambier]

Every time he went somewhere, he had to tell the system so we could follow him, which was sort of interesting. But he was going from New Mexico to Virgin Islands, then to New York, totally unscathed.

[Narrator/Host]

Jose watches as Epstein travels freely between his luxury properties, many of them places where Epstein has also assaulted women over the years, and nobody seems to care. But one of those victims, Virginia Giuffre, also known as Virginia Roberts, the former spa attendant at Mar a Lago, is determined to tell her story. In 2011, she goes public with the claim that when she was 17, she was sex trafficked by Epstein to Britain's Prince Andrew, the brother of King Charles. She alleges that Epstein flew her to London and that Guylaine told her that she had to do for Andrew what she did for Jeffrey.

[Virginia Giuffre]

Ghislaine woke me up in the morning and said, you're gonna meet a prince today. I didn't know at that point that I was going to be trafficked to that prince. I knew I had to keep him happy because that's what Jeffrey and Ghislaine would expect from me.

[Narrator/Host]

At this point, Virginia seems to be characterizing herself as a sort of live in sex slave to Epstein.

[Virginia Giuffre]

It turned very sexual and it was abuse straight away from both of them.

[Narrator/Host]

Ghislaine, of course, denies Virginia's accusations.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

What's an even bigger word than bullshit?

[Narrator/Host]

As evidence of her claim, Virginia shows the Daily Mail a photograph she has in her possession. She says it was taken in 2001. You've probably seen this picture. Prince Andrew's wearing a blue colored shirt and he's got his arm around a young blonde woman. That's Virginia. She's in a baby pink tank top and she's resting her hand on her hip. Ghislaine stands in the background smiling in a white turtleneck sweater. Here's what Guylaine has to say about all this.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

The allegation was that we went to London specially so that could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose and that she then got in my bathroom in my house in London and had sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full blown sex. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. So the first thing about that specific weekend was that it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. The second reason why, probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday, that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house, that's the size of this room, is so mind blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what. I just can't. I can't even. No. Is there any way that it could have happened? No. My house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet. It was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a Nut if you make a noise, let's say you did a little burp or something, you'd hear it where she says that they had relations in a bathroom. First of all, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I'm quite small, it's tight for me. So her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work.

[Narrator/Host]

As for the photograph, Guylaine claims it's doctored. Prince Andrew says he had no recollection of it and publicly doubts whether the hand was his. In the uk, it's huge news. Prince Andrew is taken to task and loses much of his stature and reputation. We'll be talking a lot more about Prince Andrew next episode. But in the US at this point in 2011, Virginia's story doesn't really get mainstream attention. Thomas Volschaux, the CUNY professor and reporter, recalls the coverage of Epstein during this time.

[Thomas Volschaux]

Conchita Sarnoff writes pieces at the Daily Beast and Epstein shows up in the editor's office. He gets past security and he's sitting in the chair when Tina Brown comes into her office. He tells her, like, stop. Just stop. Stop reporting and stop publishing these stories. He's trying to intimidate her. ABC decides to do the story, and there's film of Virginia Roberts speaking to Amy Robach. I've seen clips of it where she.

[Narrator/Host]

Basically gives the whole story, but it never comes out.

[Thomas Volschaux]

Alan Dershowitz takes credit for stopping that story.

[Narrator/Host]

Epstein continues to live his life largely unscathed. He keeps hanging out with his famous friends, at least most of them. President Bill Clinton appears to distance himself from Epstein after the Palm beach case, though not all politicians and figureheads do. Ehud Barak, a former Israeli prime minister and former head of intelligence, continues a relationship with Epstein, per leaked emails. In the business world, Microsoft billionaire and philanthropist Bill Gates actually forges a relationship with Epstein after he's convicted. Some of these men, including Ehud Barak, have denied knowing about the allegations against Epstein. In my experience, though, most high powered businessmen and politicians of this caliber have chief of staffs or assistants whose job it is to screen potential business associates and give their boss a heads up if anything's amiss. So it stretches the limit of credulity to imagine that these men didn't know. And Epstein, for his part, makes light of the charges. He's like the emperor of all he sees. He thinks there are no consequences for his actions. According to the New York Times, Epstein even tells people that what he had been convicted of, soliciting prostitution from an underage girl. Was no worse than, quote, stealing a bagel. But all that was about to change with an incredible cultural shift in the country. So Jeffrey Epstein is just living his life, eating clean as he likes to do, lots of dips in the pool, hanging with important men who he makes feel manly by having so many good looking young women around. When in 2018, the Miami Herald runs a series by Julie K. Brown called Perversion of Justice, the Miami Herald was.

[Thomas Volschaux]

Able to identify nearly 80 girls who were molested by Epstein, dozens more than investigators.

[Virginia Giuffre]

We were victimized by Jeffrey Epstein, then.

[Narrator/Host]

Re victimized by the government. Julie Brown's reporting digs into the unbelievable deal Epstein received, made all the more timely by the fact that Alex Acosta, the man who negotiated the plea deal back when he was U.S. attorney, had recently been named U.S. secretary of labor by Donald Trump. But there's a cultural shift that's happened too.

[Thomas Volschaux]

So Julie Brown's stories are post me too. After there have been like revelations of powerful people engaged in sexual assault and other types of misconduct becoming more widely known. There's like this national reckoning now.

[Narrator/Host]

These young girls aren't viewed as so called budding prostitutes. They're seen for what they victims. Julie's series spurs the feds into investigating. It's sort of amazing that a piece of journalism can do this, but it does. The feds start surveilling Epstein and notice inconsistencies.

[Thomas Volschaux]

He'll say he's going one place, but then they'll track his plane and say, hey, it's landing in all these other countries. Like it's in Morocco, it's in Belgium. He only said he was going to Paris.

[Narrator/Host]

When it comes time for his arrest, Epstein is in France.

[Thomas Volschaux]

I think that's because the age of consent there was 15.

[Narrator/Host]

But when he gets to Titabarra, it's all over.

[Thomas Volschaux]

There's a clandestine FBI, NYPD joint task force at Teterboro Airport. They're hiding out on the Runway in unmarked cars. So after it lands and taxis and the steps come down, the feds, they board his aircraft, announce his charges and arrest him.

[Narrator/Host]

Epstein is arrested and charged with sex trafficking of minors and conspiracy to commit sex trafficking of minors. He goes to jail in downtown Manhattan awaiting trial. And you probably know the contours of what happens next. It's a political maelstrom, a shitstorm. Labor Secretary Alex Acosta resigns over his part in Epstein's non prosecution agreement. President Trump comes under scrutiny for his friendship with Epstein. And there's an increasing sense that justice will finally be served. When investigators search Epstein's property, they even find hundreds of nude or semi nude photographs of women and girls. Epstein enters a plea of not guilty, but things aren't looking good.

[Thomas Volschaux]

He's down near the Brooklyn Bridge in a concrete prison that's very poorly run, has cockroaches on the floor. He had a leak in his toilet, would run and keep him up all night. He's not sleeping well, he doesn't look well mentally.

[Narrator/Host]

Epstein apparently isn't well either. He's caught and he knows it.

[Thomas Volschaux]

There's a first suicide attempt in July. His inmate alerts the guards like, guard, guard, come here. He's down, he's got something around his neck. He's on the floor.

[Narrator/Host]

He's put on suicide watch and assigned an inmate suicide companion counselor someone to check on him.

[Thomas Volschaux]

So that inmate suicide companion counselor I spoke to said that he saw a marked decline in Epstein. Like he said that he started to eat his. Sit on the floor to eat his food.

[Narrator/Host]

But then Epstein's cellmate is transferred and Epstein is left alone.

[Thomas Volschaux]

The very night that his cellmate was transferred out, he picks that opportunity to hang himself. Disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein has taken his own life while he was behind bars here in New York City.

[Narrator/Host]

Wherever you fall on the Epstein murder conspiracy, you've got to hear how weird that night was in prison. The guards who were on duty didn't perform the rounds they were supposed to perform. Epstein wasn't assigned a new cellmate when he definitely should have been. And CCTV footage that was later released was missing a minute of its recording. Guylaine seems to be in shock. She doesn't think he would have done this to himself.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I do not believe he died by suicide.

[Interviewer]

Do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I. No, I don't.

[Interviewer]

Why would somebody kill him in prison?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

In prison where I am, they will kill you. Or somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.

[Narrator/Host]

But Volshow isn't convinced. First, he says the crime scene was very standard.

[Thomas Volschaux]

His prison cell looks like a textbook suicide that you find in a prison or a psychiatric institution where somebody ties a bunch of ligatures out of bed sheets and hangs themself from a bunk bed.

[Narrator/Host]

Secondly, prison is a notoriously tough place for a child molester.

[Thomas Volschaux]

When middle class men get locked up in prison or jail pending trial for sex crimes against children or minors, their suicide risk is extremely high. And sometimes it's the fall from grace in the community. It's the pressure from other inmates who may have children of their own and want to do the person in.

[Narrator/Host]

But with Epstein dead, someone needs to be held accountable. And that someone is going to be his dark haired British companion. Remember, Ghislaine wasn't charged in the 2006 Palm beach case. She's even been warring with Virginia, the two of them filing defamation suits against each other, each insisting that the other is lying. But in 2019, after Epstein dies, the spotlight hits Ghislaine square in the face. Here's Virginia.

[Virginia Giuffre]

She's worse than Epstein. She did things even worse than Epstein did. She was vicious, she was evil, and she was a woman. Jeffrey was a sick pedophile, but she was the mastermind.

[Narrator/Host]

Ghislaine hides out in the Northeast. No one is quite sure where she is. And then one day, a photo pops up online. It's so odd. It's a photo of her sitting at an In N Out burger in la. In front of her, a book entitled the Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives. It seems like she's sending a message that Epstein was a spy or somehow had intelligence ties like her father, Robert Maxwell, and that maybe he was killed to protect powerful people. She disappears again. And then about a year later, in July 2020, Ghislaine is arrested. She's charged with sex trafficking, among other crime. The evidence in her trial isn't particularly strong and you can make an argument that she also gave her life to Epstein, to whom she paid fealty over and over, but did not love her. But still, she is found guilty. Convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, just sentenced to 20 years in prison. Now she's behind bars. But the story doesn't die. Even though it's proven that Epstein molested and sex trafficked girls, two big questions remain. Was Jeffrey arranging sex for other people? Was he getting compromising material on them?

So if you've been following this story, or even if you haven't, you've probably heard a lot about Epstein's flight logs, his little black book, his client list altogether. They're a list of people who have ridden on his planes, his address book of personal friends, all the people he managed, money for. This group of people. And these documents have taken on an almost mythic quality, as though the papers contain the truth to all the corruption of government and civic life. A societal skeleton key that can unlock the dark molesting secrets of what some call the illuminati, the world's 1%, the elite. And it's true that the names in the flight logs touch every part of U.S. industry. Larry Summers, former Harvard president, U.S. secretary of the Treasury. There's Marvin Minsky, the AI pioneer and MIT mathematician. Even Kevin Spacey, the disgraced actor. There are people from all across the political spectrum and they're all coalescing on one man's plane. So does that mean they were bad actors or were they just friends with him? Or did they just want a free ride? It's difficult to say, and undoubtedly it's different in each case. But the feeling, at least in popular culture, is that merely being mentioned in these documents is enough to ascribe you some amount of guilt. Lamb says this idea of guilt by association is dangerous.

[Jose Lambier]

He's got all kinds of people in there. He's got top people at Google. He's got top people in the biggest companies in America. Are they pedophiles?

[Thomas Volschaux]

No.

[Jose Lambier]

You have to be very careful when it comes to the black book or the flight logs. It doesn't mean that every name is a broken individual. That's not true. There are some stand up people in there. So I would caution people and the conspiracy theorists out there, be careful. Not everybody needs to be painting in the same light here.

[Narrator/Host]

What a lot of these people are guilty of for sure, is hanging out with a registered sex offender for having dealings with a man who had already been convicted of solicitation of prostitution of a minor. And that was the thing he pled to. This man was known for his perverted lifestyle. And it's a lifestyle that they may have just turned a blind eye to. And it doesn't help that 2 of the people who signed his infamous birthday book, which you may have heard about recently, that is the book that Ghislaine made for his 50th birthday, filled with letters and messages from famous people, happen to be former presidents. If you haven't seen the birthday book and it is available online, you can just dig for it is pretty weird stuff. It's just page after page of pictures of Jeffrey with half naked women. There's crude drawings of girls massaging him. There's a lot of dirty stories told by dirty old rich men about Epstein picking up women. And there's some stuff from the women themselves. Some are actually quite enthusiastic about Jeffrey. They say things like this is in a section called Assistance. Before Jeffrey, I was a 22 year old divorcee working as a hostess in a hotel restaurant. After Jeffrey, I now live in New York. I've traveled to London, Paris, Milan, Copenhagen. I've met Prince Andrew, President Clinton, the Sultan of Brunei, Donald Trump. This letter ends with a picture of her walking arm in arm with Jeffrey while he has his hand down her pants. And then, of course, there's a note from Bill Clinton, who wishes Epstein a happy birthday and says, it's reassuring, isn't it, to have lasted so long across all the years of learning and knowing, and still to have your childlike curiosity, the drive to make a difference, and the solace of friends. And there's the now notorious message from President Trump. It's written as a mock screenplay encased in the outline of a woman's body. Just really odd kind of cartoon there. And there's this imagined dialogue between Jeffrey and Trump. It reads, there must be more to life than having everything. Yes, there is, but I won't tell you what it is, nor will I, since I also know what it is. We have certain things in common, Jeffrey. And then they talk about having a secret. And Donald Trump, after all this, signs his name in the area of this woman's outline that all this text is inside in a way that sort of looks like it's the woman's pubic hair. I mean, what. In her interview with the doj, Genlan talks a bit about the presidents that Epstein ran with. President Clinton and President Trump.

[Interviewer]

Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't believe he did.

[Interviewer]

What makes you say you don't believe he did?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

So? That's a good question. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage, and he didn't because I was there.

[Interviewer]

And you mentioned that early in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early 90s.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Well, I just want to say, for my relationship with President Trump, relationship's a big word. But I just want to say that I met him, well, I believe I may have because of my father in the 90s. So my father liked him very much, and he really liked his wife as well, because they were both Czechoslovakian. And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me, And I just want to say that I find I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the president now. And I like him, and I've always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship. With him.

[Interviewer]

What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't know how they met, and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together, and I remember the few times I observed them together that they were friendly.

[Interviewer]

I mean, was that in social settings or was that in private settings?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don't recall any private settings.

[Narrator/Host]

So what she's saying is Trump's a great guy. He was friendly with Epstein, but maybe not that close. But she didn't see any funny business with President Trump, so certainly no grabbing them by the pussy. And for that matter, she didn't see any massages with President Clinton either. Nothing that would entail the need to wash a blue Gap dress. To me, it seems that Jeffrey Epstein operated a pyramid scheme for his sexual desires, employing a staff of women who are all working together to earn, arrange sex and find new women for him. In this environment, it doesn't stretch the imagination that some of the women around Epstein might have had sex with other men, men who frequented Epstein's houses. But in terms of underage women, we just haven't heard that entered into the public record for many different women yet. And there are supposed to be over a thousand women who were victimized by Jeffrey Ghislaine. However, pooh poohs. The idea that Epstein was providing sex for his associates at all.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Did I think these guys were coming for that? I really don't. If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters of which is extraordinary, some in your cabinet who you value as your co workers and you know would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that they didn't have to come to Epstein for that.

[Narrator/Host]

But all this builds to the idea that perhaps Epstein was luring in powerful men, girls and women to get compromising material on the men footage or photographs that he could use to blackmail them down the road. A recent New York Times investigation of Epstein's Manhattan apartment showed that it was wired with cameras. And maybe those cameras made recordings for Jeffrey's own pleasure or for leverage. As of now, though, it's been reported that the FBI has these tapes. No public tapes from those cameras exist. If I'm being honest, I do think Epstein probably sought to get leverage over people. To me, Epstein seems like an operator, a sociopath, someone who is in turn charming and manipulative, who will stop at nothing to advance in the world. So it makes sense to me that he Would use both the carrot and the stick. Dangling the carrot of fun parties, free plane rides, gorgeous homes in which friends could stay, and maybe also some sort of stick information that could be weaponized. Voscho believes Epstein was a master at getting information he could use to intimidate. He points to Epstein's relationship with Bill Gates as a possible example of this.

[Thomas Volschaux]

He was courting Bill Gates, I'd say, from 2010 through, like, 2014. Epstein did not get Bill Gates to be his number one client. So at some point, as reported in the Wall Street Journal, Epstein informed Bill Gates that he knew that Gates had this. This young Russian woman who was in her early 20s that he had an affair with. So it's kind of like this intimidation thing. Bill Gates, I think, has no prenuptial agreement, and Epstein probably knows this, and he lives in Washington, which is a community property state. So, like, the fortune should get divvied up 50, 50 legally.

[Narrator/Host]

Fosho thinks Epstein also potentially had access to information his clients might not want getting out. Say, if Epstein were bargaining some sort of plea deal.

[Thomas Volschaux]

When you're a financial advisor, you have a lot of access to personal information about people. So if he wanted to, he could theoretically use some of that information, which I think could involve, like, money laundering and tax evasion.

[Narrator/Host]

As for the kompromat, the idea that Epstein was collecting compromising information on people that he could use against him. Ghislaine says there is no way she even blames what was going on with Epstein on him taking the hormone testosterone.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. He started doing testosterone, and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late 90s.

[Interviewer]

When you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it made him get more massages.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Well, he became more aggressive, and I think that the testosterone altered his desires or something.

[Narrator/Host]

But the problem with trying to decipher what was really going on is that both Epstein and Khislain are such big talkers, such braggarts, name droppers, and sometimes prevaricators that this entire story has built up into a national game of telephone. Epstein often told people incredibly tall tales, and they passed them on and on and on, and now we're all just mired in this gossip. And then there's the fact that Gus denies that she ever did anything sexual with Epstein and other women, which she has been convicted of.

[Interviewer]

Did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse like at the same time?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No.

[Interviewer]

And so the women who have said that that happened categorically. That's not true.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

That is categorically not true.

[Narrator/Host]

But then she goes and says this.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be in the room. I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and we could be talking. So there is that.

[Interviewer]

But that's not. You're not talking about something that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes, okay, but I mean, but that's.

[Interviewer]

Not what I'm talking about.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Sometimes the women might be toddlers who are giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context?

[Narrator/Host]

Yes, you could say it was sexual. And then she says this.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

The only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City, the show on telly. That lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and men who like it.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, that is quite minimizing. And today she is still in prison serving her 20 year sentence, though there is definitely a freedom movement that is trying to prove her innocence. And she was recently transferred to a lower security prison, a minimum security institution in Texas. And we'll be getting into that next episode in our wrap up. Virginia Giuffre, for her part, died by suicide in April 2025. Not everyone believes all her stories either, but a book she wrote before her death is scheduled for publication at the end of October. And Epstein, well, he lied about a lot of stuff, but the craziest and wildest tale ended up being about his death by dying under such strange circumstances. The years may come and go, but every so often he's going to pop back into the news and the whole country will wait and watch for the.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Truth.

[Narrator/Host]

Next episode on our fifth and final installment of our series on Jeffrey Epstein will tie up a bunch of loose threads from what we've talked about and we'll go deep on the case of that royal who has been semi excommunicated. Now by first the Queen and now King Charles, I'm talking about the Prince Andrew.

[Royal Expert/Commentator]

He did stand down from royal duties. The Queen still stood by him. She made him a vice admiral. He didn't lose, you know, his dukedom. So it's a slightly mixed message, but I think the reason for that and the reason Sarah Ferguson is there is that they need to keep them close. They're worried what stories that they can tell the press, you know, would they leak stuff to a tame journalist or writer, Sam.