Jeffrey and Ghislane's Secrets | Part I

Summary

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Infamous Podcast: "Jeffrey and Ghislaine's Secrets | Part I"

Date: September 11, 2025
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Gabriel Sherman, Natalie Robehmed

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Episode Overview

The first installment of "Jeffrey and Ghislaine's Secrets" sets the stage for a deep dive into the intertwined lives of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. The hosts guide listeners through Epstein's mysterious death, the origins and rise of both figures, and their evolution from outsiders to players at the highest levels of society. The episode seeks to cut through rumor, myth, and conspiracy to establish a factual baseline for the duo’s infamy, exploring the cultural roots of the obsession with the Epstein story.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Circumstances Surrounding Epstein’s Death

• Opening Scene: Vanessa paints a cinematic account of the morning Epstein was found dead in his cell (01:08).
  • “On the ninth floor, one of the guards approaches a cell…there in the dawn light, he finds a man…there's an orange noose around his neck...” (01:38, Vanessa Grigoriadis)
• Host acknowledges skepticism and conspiracy theories surrounding the suicide ruling and hints at the cultural obsession with the case.

2. Introduction to Ghislaine Maxwell

• Brief news clip introduces Maxwell as Epstein’s alleged accomplice (03:50).
• Maxwell’s own voice proclaims, “I believe that he was murdered.” (04:00, Ghislaine Maxwell)

3. Diverging Perspectives on the Epstein Saga

• Vanessa and Natalie lay out their personal, sometimes opposing, perspectives on the broader meaning of the Epstein story (04:26).
  • “The Epstein tale even encouraged the level headed among us to verge on conspiracy theorists.” (04:41, Natalie Robehmed)
• The show commits to separating fact from internet fiction.

4. Epstein's Early Life in Brooklyn

• Epstein’s humble upbringing in a working-class Jewish family in Coney Island is explored (05:41).
• Thomas Volscho, a sociologist and Epstein researcher, emphasizes Epstein’s ordinary background:
  • “His father…was making about, in today's money, about $65,000. Like, imagine trying to live on $65,000 in Brooklyn with a family of four.” (08:19, Thomas Volscho)
• Epstein’s intelligence and ambition: skipped two grades, excelled at chess, proclaimed to classmates, “I'm going to be rich when I grow up.” (09:30)

5. Epstein’s Educational Path and Entrance to Dalton

• Epstein dropped out of two colleges but managed to secure a teaching position at the elite Dalton School by falsifying his credentials.
  • “I believe he said that he got a degree from UC Berkeley and that he did graduate study in math at Stanford University. Neither of these things were true, but it didn’t matter.” (14:15, Thomas Volscho)
• Epstein was unconventional—attending student parties, dressing flamboyantly—raising eyebrows but making important connections, especially with Ace Greenberg of Bear Stearns (15:26).

6. Epstein’s Rapid but Troubled Rise on Wall Street

• Despite being caught lying on his resume, Epstein talks his way into a job at Bear Stearns.
  • “When I told him he'd lied, he admitted it immediately…he said, ‘I knew I couldn't get a job teaching at a high-quality school if I didn't have good educational credentials…’” (17:15, Michael Tenenbaum)
• Accusations of insider trading and strange behavior eventually force his departure from Wall Street, launching his solo trading firm.

7. Ghislaine Maxwell’s Aristocratic Origins and Fall

• Maxwell grows up as the beloved daughter of Robert Maxwell—media tycoon and MP—reveling in society’s upper crust (21:55).
• “With her French name and British airs, Guylaine was raised with all the trappings of high society—a 53-room mansion, private jets and an army of servants.” (22:44, Natalie Robehmed)
• She aids her father’s various business ventures in the US and UK, including the New York Daily News.

8. Maxwell’s Father’s Death and Financial Ruin

• In 1991, Robert Maxwell mysteriously dies at sea. Ghislaine discovers the family fortune is gone:
  • “...there was nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time, ever.” (27:42, Ghislaine Maxwell)
• Ghislaine, beset by scandal and loss, relocates to New York to start over.

9. The Fateful Meeting of Epstein and Maxwell

• Ghislaine details, for the first time, her own account of meeting Epstein in 1991 through a mutual friend, refuting rumors Epstein met her father first.
  • “I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. I'd never heard of him or met him before, and no one in my family had ever either.” (25:25, Ghislaine Maxwell)
  • “He invited me to have tea. And I was like, tea? That’s English. Okay.” (26:07, Ghislaine Maxwell)
• Memorable anecdote: Ghislaine recalls Epstein’s “giant tomato ketchup stain” on his tie at their first meeting (26:42). She notes his rough edges but engaging personality: “He was very engaging and kind of sad.” (26:59)

10. Parallel Losses Draw Them Together

• Both lose their fathers within months, forming a bond. Ghislaine describes their short-lived romantic involvement and the odd dynamic that followed:
  • “So in 1992, I slept with one type of…And I was like, whoa, that’s it, we’re going to be dating…But we didn’t sleep together again for...maybe nine months.” (29:18, Ghislaine Maxwell)

11. The Formation of a Powerful—And Infamous—Duo

• Ghislaine, seeking “to do something positive” after her loss, and Epstein, now a fixture on the Upper East Side, become partners—though not quite in the traditional romantic sense (31:12).
• Their union paves the way for the abuses and crimes to come.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Epstein’s death and its impact:

  • “Epstein’s death in this jail cell was ruled a suicide. But that hasn’t convinced a contingent of the Internet who believe that he was actually murdered as part of a cover up. His story is a sick and twisted true crime tale. It’s an obsession which says more about our culture than we’d like to admit.”
    — Vanessa Grigoriadis (02:55)

• On the power of rumor and conspiracy:

  • “So much of what’s out there about Epstein is still rumor or hearsay or speculation—just Internet make believe. Untangling what’s real and what’s not is what we’re going to do now together.”
    — Vanessa Grigoriadis (05:41)

• On Epstein’s ambition:

  • “According to the book The Spider, Epstein was in the ninth grade when he told a future classmate, ‘I’m going to be rich when I grow up.’ The classmate later noted, he didn’t say, ‘When I grow up I’m going to be rich’ like a regular kid might. This was a declaration, and Epstein set out to make it so.”
    — Vanessa Grigoriadis (09:30)

• On Maxwell’s fall from grace:

  • “There was nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time, ever.”
    — Ghislaine Maxwell (27:42)

• On meeting Epstein:

  • “He had a giant tomato ketchup stain on his tie. So I was like, wow. Okay.”
    — Ghislaine Maxwell (26:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:08 — Detailed account of Epstein’s jail cell discovery and death
• 04:00 — Ghislaine Maxwell’s (archival) assertion: “I believe that he was murdered.”
• 05:41 — The launch of the “actual/factual story” approach
• 09:30 — Epstein’s early ambition and declaration to become rich
• 12:20 — Epstein’s college years and his “failing upwards” into Dalton
• 14:15 — How Epstein lied his way into Dalton with a fake résumé
• 17:15 — Michael Tenenbaum on discovering Epstein’s résumé lies at Bear Stearns
• 21:55 — Introduction to Ghislaine Maxwell’s socialite upbringing
• 25:25 — Ghislaine Maxwell’s own account of first meeting Epstein
• 27:16 — Maxwell’s father’s mysterious death and her financial crisis
• 29:18 — Ghislaine on the unusual romantic dynamics with Epstein
• 31:12 — The pair consolidate their relationship and access to power

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Conclusion

Part I of the Infamous miniseries “Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets” sets out to demystify the origins and early maneuverings of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Through probing interviews, personal perspectives, and revealing archival audio, the episode unpacks the psychological and societal forces at play. The show leverages both skepticism and rigor to frame how two outsiders scrabbled to the heights of the social register—and hints at how their pursuit of power ultimately took them, and their victims, to dark places.

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Transcript

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[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

It's a humid August morning, just past 6am and we're at a jail in New York City. Dawn is beginning to break through the small glass windows and now lights are streaming into the dark gray building. The inmates in one unit called the Special Housing Unit begin to rustle in their bunks. This unit is where you get sent for disciplinary reasons or in the case of at least one inmate here to protect him from himself. Now the guards on duty receive a delivery of breakfast carts. They wheel it around, sliding the food through special slots in the locked cell doors. On the ninth floor, one of the guards approaches a cell. He goes to deliver the food and he calls out to the inmate, but there's no response. The guard knocks. No answer. The guard unlocks the door. Now he pushes it open and there in the dawn light, he finds a man. This man has gray hair and a heavily lined face and his body is in such a strange position. He's almost sitting, it seems, just hovering off the floor. Then the guard notices this man has an orange noose around his neck and the noose is tied to the top bunk. The guard yells for help and rushes forward. He pulls the noose off the bunk bed and the man collapses to the ground. He puts his hands on the man's chest and begins pumping. One, two, three, inhale. But the man isn't breathing. More staff members arrive. It's really chaotic and medical personnel eventually take over. But it's too late. The man is dead. And this man is Jeffrey Epstein. He's one of the most notorious criminals of the 21st century. A sex trafficker, a rapist whose ties to business and political elites have gripped the nation. I mean, the world. Epstein's death in this jail cell was ruled a suicide. But that hasn't convinced a contingent of the Internet who believe that he was actually murdered as part of a cover up. His story is a sick and twisted true crime tale. It's an obsession which says more about our culture than we'd like to admit.

[Thomas Fulshow]

The woman accused of helping alleged sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein recruit and abuse underage girls is in jail this morning. FBI agents arrested Ghislaine Maxwell yesterday.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I believe that he was murdered.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

Could you please state your full name? I'm Jeffrey Edward Epstein and my residence address is 6100 Red Hook Boulevard in Virgin Islands.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media, this is an infamous miniseries, Jeffrey and Ghislaine's Secrets. I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis.

[Natalie Wobomad]

And I'm Natalie Wobomed. So you may think you know a lot about Jeffrey Epstein or you may have only heard a couple things. Bad things to do with a plane and a private island and a woman with a hard to pronounce name, Ghislaine. Though many say Ghislaine and like the way to pronounce Ghislaine's name, there are multiple versions of this story depending on who you listen to. The Epstein tale encouraged even the level headed among us to verge on conspiracy theorists. And I have to be honest, I have been one of them. Even though I know you, Vanessa. Disagree. And we'll get into that. Our two different viewpoints which mirror the ways a lot of people feel. Some convinced that this story is the skeleton key to the universe. Others who think it's wildly overblown. I mean, at a time when it feels like the current world order isn't working for so many people, Epstein seems to confirm some of our worst fears. That there is this secret, shadowy network of power where men are having their way with young women, where politicians are rubbing shoulders with billionaires and hedge fund managers and doing unspeakable things.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

But so much of what's out there about Epstein is still rumor or hearsay or speculation. Just Internet make believe. Untangling what's real and what's not is what we're going to do now together. Because this is A world of trick mirrors, of political theater and criminal investigations gone awry. So come with us as we tell the actual factual story of Jeffrey Epstein. We're going to start by going back in time to Brooklyn, New York. This is where Jeffrey Epstein was born on January 20, 1953. He grew up in a beach town at the very bottom of Brooklyn, Coney island, which juts out into the Atlantic Ocean like an afterthought. It's a strange sort of place, a mix of carnival and working class. It's got a long boardwalk where you can stroll and buy hot dogs, play a game to win a stuffed animal. There's a big old Ferris wheel and an old roller coaster named the Cyclone.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Coney island, the world's greatest fun frolic.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

All peppered with people. The place where merriment is king. Jeffrey Epstein lived here with his mom, dad and younger brother in a small gated community called Seagate, which was right near the boardwalk. No one has said that anything out of the ordinary happened to him privately during that time. And Jeffrey hasn't said that either. Here he is in a deposition.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

Were you sexually abused as a minor? Again, were you sexually abused as a minor? You know, I'd like to. Again, I'd like to respond to all your, if any questions seem to be relevant, but I would like to respond to any relevant question at this time. However, my attorneys have counseled me that I cannot provide answers to the questions relevant to this lawsuit today. I must accept their advice or risk losing my sixth Amendment right to effective representation. Accordingly, then I assert my 5th, 6th and 14th amendment right to the United States Constitution.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Okay, so that's what Jeffrey had to say about that. He placed his cards close to the chest. But his upbringing, it wasn't anything fancy.

[Thomas Fulshow]

So he came from a working class family. His father worked for the New York City Parks Department.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

That's Thomas Fulshow, a sociology professor at the College of Staten Island Couney and a part time investigative reporter who has written a lot about Jeffrey Epstein and his past.

[Thomas Fulshow]

I was able to obtain his payment records for his father, and he was making about, in Today's money, about $65,000. Like just imagine trying to live on $65,000 in Brooklyn with a family of four. You know, it's quite expensive.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Back then, Coney island was kind of rough, especially for a Jewish kid who was a bit nerdy.

[Thomas Fulshow]

One source discussed how, like on their way to school, he'd walk with Epstein when they're in like sixth or seventh grade, and they'd walk up Neptune Avenue. And he said it was very common to get shaken down by older bullies. Sometimes like people in their early 20s and they shake kids down for their lunch money.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

By all accounts, Epstein was pretty smart. He did well in school, so well that he was allowed to skip two grades.

[Thomas Fulshow]

He was a good chess player. He was really proficient in math. And so the teachers and such forth, you know, they saw this, like, potential in him, and that's why they promoted him across a couple of grades, which is usually you're only allowed to skip one grade, but he skipped two. And it was sort of like the pattern of his life to always be doing things that were a little bit unbelievable to other people.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

In fact, from a young age, Epstein was clear on his desires. According to the book the Spider, Epstein was in the ninth grade when he told a future classmate, I'm going to be rich when. When I grow up. The classmate later noted, he didn't say, when I grow up, I'm going to be rich like a regular kid might. This was a declaration, and Epstein set out to make it so.

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[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

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[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So you'd think a smart, promising young guy like Jeffrey Epstein would go off to college. And he did, sort of.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

What college did you attend? Cooper Union. And did you get a degree from Cooper Union? No, sir. How many years were you in college? I believe two. What'd you study? Physics.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Epstein never ended up graduating from Cooper Union. After that he took classes at NYU. But by the mid-70s, Epstein had dropped out of two colleges without a degree. It would launch the beginning of a pattern of failing upwards because despite not having a degree, Epstein was able to get a job teaching at one of the most prestigious private schools in New York.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

The school has always been a breeding ground for the worst kinds of people.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Is it really their fault they inherited.

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Power and influence the minute they were born, without any examples of how not to abuse it?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

That's a clip from HBO's reboot of gossip Girl, which is based on a fictional plays. Very much like the Dalton School. The real Dalton is a small, elite school housed in a tall brick building on Manhattan's Upper east side. I actually went to this school. I did go to public school, but then I went to Dalton for high school. I can tell you it is no joke. It is rigorous academically and just a tough school filled with very smart, competitive kids and very serious teachers. But in the summer of 1974, as humidity itched at the backs of all those flared jeans and polyester shirts, the Dalton School added one more teacher to their ranks. Jeffrey Epstein. At the age of just 21, he was hired to teach calculus and physics, despite not really being qualified to do so. According to Volscho, he lied on his Resume.

[Thomas Fulshow]

I mean, parts of the resume, of course, were true. It had his name on it, but his, like, education credentials were fake. So I believe he said that he got a degree from UC Berkeley and that he did graduate study in math at Stanford University.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Neither of these things were true, but it didn't matter. Epstein was soon walking the halls at Dalton, the new cool young teacher, dressing not in polo shorts and jeans like everyone else. He dressed like he was straight out of Studio 54. He put on a long fur coat, big hair, maybe an open shirt, lots of chains.

[Thomas Fulshow]

He dresses in a manner that's perhaps not like the buttoned up tweed jacket that you're supposed to wear at a prep school like Dalton at the time and that the headmaster, Donald Barr, would have liked. But he sort of has a rapport. Like, he goes to Central park and he throws a frisbee to try to show this, you know, explain, like, the physics of a, you know, frisbee and what's happening when you throw it. But at the same time, he doesn't do a lot of basic things like grade homework and return it to students on time. And he also pays a lot of attention to female students.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Because it wasn't just the clothes that made Epstein an anomaly. It was also the way he interacted with students, some of whom were only a few years younger than him.

[Thomas Fulshow]

He would be at parties. High school students are having a party, and there's this teacher there, and it's Epstein.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Now, there aren't any public reports of Epstein assaulting anyone when he was a teacher at Dalton. It's more just that what he was doing was so odd. And it seems like the Dalton administrators may not have liked it either. Reports as to why differ. But Epstein left dalton in the mid-70s, marking the end of his teaching career and the first known record of Epstein's strange behavior with young people. But he didn't leave Dalton without making some very important connections. One of them was to the dad of a student. His name was Allen, or Ace Greenberg, and he was the CEO of financial firm Bear Stearns.

[Michael Tenenbaum]

One day I was sitting in my office and Ace Greenberg called me to say that a trustee of the Dalton School had a young professor, Jeff Epstein, who wanted to come to Wall street. And Ace asked if I would interview him.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

That's Michael Tenenbaum, a former Bear Stearns executive, talking in the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich. Greenberg apparently liked that Epstein was what he called psd, poor, smart and desperate to be rich. And what the boss says goes. So after he talked to Greenberg, Epstein got Hired as a traitor. But his former sins apparently came back to haunt him.

[Michael Tenenbaum]

Epstein had been working for me perhaps two months. The head of personnel called me. He said, are you sitting down? Jeffrey Epstein lied on his resume about his education. None of his colleges had ever heard of him. I was stunned. I hired a liar. Even worse, he was dating Ace's daughter. I went to Ace Greenberg. I wasn't sure how he would want me to proceed. And Ace said, treat him like anybody else. I was prepared to fire him. And this is where his sales skills really resonated. When I told him he'd lied, he admitted it immediately. He just said, I knew I couldn't get a job teaching at a high quality school if I didn't have good educational credentials, so I wanted to get a chance. I said, why didn't you tell us the truth? And he said, well, I was afraid the Dalton School would hear about it and there would be problems.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Epstein's able to talk his way out of trouble and keep his job, which even though he's lied his way into, he seems to be pretty good at. Epstein as a trader, is using his math skills supposedly to his advantage and helping his clients make lots of money. He's almost like a mini Gordon gecko. I'm talking about the character played by Michael Douglas in Wall Street.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word is good. Greed is right.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Greed works. But once again, Epstein's time at Bear Stearns doesn't last long. And once again, there are varying accounts as to what happens. Here's what we know. Epstein is accused of an insider trading violation related to his work for one of his biggest clients, Seagram Ayr, Edgar Bronfman. Questions also emerge about Epstein's use of his expense accounts. And there are rumors about a relationship with a secretary. Epstein's forced out of Bear Stearns in 1981. He effectively felt fails out of Wall Street. But he doesn't give in. He does something unexpected for the time. He starts his own startup, a trading company that's based out of his apartment on East 66th Street. This is highly unusual for the 1980s, when people didn't do startups like today. And it doesn't exactly take off, not by a long shot. By the mid-1980s, Epstein business is slow. He's out on his own. He's struggling. But he will soon meet someone, or rather two people who will change everything for him.

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[Natalie Wobomad]

So while Epstein is toughing it out on his own, across the pond in London, one young woman is becoming the belle of the ball. She's about 5 foot 7, slim with dark hair and high cheekbones, English accent. Her name is Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I started diving when I was nine, having become passionate about the ocean watching Jacques Cousteau on tv.

[Natalie Wobomad]

Guylaine grew up rich, the daughter of Robert Maxwell, a British press baron and Member of Parliament, and Elizabeth Maxwell, a French born scholar. Her father was a bombastic personality, a tabloid legend.

[Michael Tenenbaum]

I am committed to getting the mirror on top of the sun.

[Thomas Fulshow]

I have set myself a target of two years to achieve the goal.

[Natalie Wobomad]

With her French name and British airs, Guylaine was raised with all the trappings of high society, a 53 room mansion, private jets and an army of servants. She went to Oxford, the elite university that especially back in the day was almost a finishing school for the upper class. In addition to an excellent education after college, Ghislaine seems to use her manners and grace to help her father with business.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I'd come to Visit America in 1990. I had been running my own company up until that time, which is a company called Matching Corporate Gifts. And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was. In 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a new newspaper that he was launching called the European. And I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with the European. And I was traveling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to. Well, he'd also bought Macmillan, the publishing house, and he had purchased the New York Daily News.

[Natalie Wobomad]

The New York Daily News, a local tabloid, has been struggling financially. And when her father buys the Rag in 1991, Ghislaine serves as a sort of liaison, helping smooth things over with her manners and charisma.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News, and in fact, I may have met Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much. And I think should be said that he also very much liked Ivana because she was also confessed where my dad was hurt.

[Natalie Wobomad]

Ghislaine is flitting back and forth between London and New York, probably flying on the Concord, which only took about three hours to get between the two. She's helping her dad, getting to know the New York social scene, which of course at this time probably includes Donald Trump and his then wife, Ivana. It also includes another man, Jeffrey Epstein. For a long time, we didn't know exactly when and how Epstein and Guyenne met. It was thought that Epstein first met Ghislaine's dad and then was introduced to Ghislaine after that. But now Ghislaine has been interviewed just this year by the U.S. department of justice, and here's what she had to say.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. I'd never heard of him or met him before, and no one in my family had ever either.

[Natalie Wobomad]

She'd come back to New York in April 1991 when a girlfriend of hers.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Said, I've got a guy for you to meet. And I'm like, who is it? And she goes, he's been dating my sister. You'll love him. He's looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30. I don't need to tell you guys that's a very important moment for a girl to, like, think about important things. I sure won't be happy to meet him.

[Natalie Wobomad]

So Guylaine agrees to meet Epstein. She heads down to his office now on Madison Avenue.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

He just Invited me to come and have tea. And I was like, tea? That's English. Okay.

[Natalie Wobomad]

This was probably a charming move on Epstein's part, given that Guylaine's English and knowing how much the English love to.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Have a cup of tea.

[Natalie Wobomad]

So Guylaine walks into the office. She sees a man with light gray hair, bushy dark eyebrows and a peculiar smile, the edges of his lips bending too far up his cheeks. But Guylaine doesn't focus on that. What she notices is his tie.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

He was wearing a tie, which he didn't offer.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

It didn't.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow. Okay.

[Natalie Wobomad]

This guy is a little rough around the edges, not polished like Guylaine, but there's something to him. He's charming and charismatic that finds him.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Very engaging and kind of sad.

[Natalie Wobomad]

It's not love at first sight, but the two stay in touch. Then, in November 1991, not long after she first meets Epstein, tragedy strikes for Guylaine.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

The board and Mirror Group Newspapers announces.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

With deep regret that Robert Maxwell, chairman.

[Thomas Fulshow]

Of Mirror Group Newspapers PLC and Maxwell.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Communication Corporation, is missing at sea.

[Natalie Wobomad]

Her father, Robert, mysteriously falls off his yacht and drowns. What's more, it turns out he's flat broke and allegedly owes people money.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

He had his extravagances. He loved his boat and his plane, so obviously you need money for that. But there was nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time, ever.

[Natalie Wobomad]

Ghislaine is adrift, though she puts on a brave face publicly.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I'm extremely sad that my father is no longer here. But I don't feel in any way smaller or lesser than what I was before. The future is the future. You just get on and do whatever you can do. If I have a wish for myself, it's to do something positive with my life.

[Natalie Wobomad]

But privately, it's not a good time to be in London.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I returned to New York after that originally to come back and help with family businesses. And then the debacle of my father, my son's passing hit the family and we lost all our businesses. And my family thought that would be best if I stayed in America because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England.

[Natalie Wobomad]

She is now without the man who has been the main anchor in her life, without the family money that has buoyed her thus far. Buffeted by the winds of fate, the British socialite settles in New York to make a new life. Around this time, Jeffrey's father also dies after a long illness in December 1991. Now Guylaine and Epstein have their loss in common and they become romantic briefly.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

So in 1992, I slept with one type of. And I was like, whoa, that's it, we're going to be dating. Because that's how I thought. And I kind of thought of myself in that moment, like, because I felt if you slept with someone that you were then dating them. That's the world I came from. But that really was. Well, that's how I thought and. But we didn't sleep together again for. I don't know, really a significant period of time. Years or. I don't know if it's a year. That feels long. But maybe nine months. I mean, a long time. Epstein told me that he had a heart condition which meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot. Which suited me fine because I actually do have a medical condition which me having a lot of intercourse.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

So what. What was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I mean, who liked other forms of sexual act?

[Natalie Wobomad]

It's unclear what health condition Guyne has that didn't let her have intercourse. But remember, you can't believe everything she says. Still with Guyne by his side, the working class Brooklyn boy becomes an Upper east side elite. Together, the pair are more powerful than they are apart. And what they will do with that power, how they will misuse it, will shock the world.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would. I don't know about them. Certainly by the late 90s. Anyway, the marriage part was never going to happen.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

Mr. Epstein, how long have you been sexually attracted? Attracted to underage minor females? Objection.

[Thomas Fulshow]

Harassing. Argumentative.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

Are you kidding?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Perfect. Incident is my friend. No abstinence.

[Natalie Wobomad]

I said, Jeffrey, I'm not a prostitute.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

I want to be in the Victoria's Secrets catalog.