Justin Bieber Is Standing on Business

Summary

Infamous Podcast Episode Summary: "Justin Bieber Is Standing on Business"

Release Date: August 14, 2025

In this compelling episode of Infamous, hosted by Natalie Robehmed and Vanessa Grigoriadis, with insights from special guest Joe Coscarelli, the rise, fall, and resurgence of global pop sensation Justin Bieber are meticulously examined. The discussion delves deep into Bieber's journey from a teenage heartthrob to a mature artist grappling with the complexities of fame.

---

1. Introduction to Justin Bieber's Journey

Vanessa Grigoriadis kicks off the episode by reminiscing about her first encounter with Justin Bieber:

“I first met Justin Bieber when he was 16 years old. I interviewed him for his first cover of Rolling Stone and I was insanely excited about it.” [00:15]

She provides a heartfelt background on Bieber’s upbringing, highlighting his mother's traumatic past and the pivotal role she played in his early life. This sets the stage for understanding the pressures Bieber faced from a young age.

---

2. Early Rise to Fame

Joe Coscarelli echoes Vanessa's sentiments, framing Bieber as the modern incarnation of iconic teen pop acts:

“Justin Bieber was Teen Pop version 3.0, 4.0, depending on how you count the Jackson 5 and the Monkees and the Beatlemania...” [02:17]

He discusses Bieber's discovery by Scooter Braun through YouTube covers, emphasizing the strategic launch of his career with hit songs like "Baby." Coscarelli underscores the significance of Bieber’s collaborations with top-tier writers like The-Dream and Tricky Stewart, which catapulted him into stardom.

---

3. Navigating Child Stardom and Public Image

Vanessa shares an anecdote from her early interview experience with Bieber, illustrating his youthful demeanor and Canadian pride:

“I remember him having a lot of Canadian pride... ‘I love Canada. I don't want to be here.’” [04:31]

The conversation highlights the challenges Bieber faced as a child star, including media scrutiny and personal behavior issues reminiscent of other young celebrities like Aaron Carter.

Joe Coscarelli adds depth to this narrative:

“It's a timeless tale of child stardom... he really blooms as a musician.” [08:09]

He draws parallels between Bieber’s struggles and those of past child stars, emphasizing the systemic pressures that can lead to personal turmoil.

---

4. The Influence and Downfall of Scooter Braun

The dynamic between Bieber and his manager, Scooter Braun, is scrutinized as a pivotal factor in Bieber's career trajectory. Vanessa and Joe discuss how Braun's management initially helped shape Bieber's image but eventually led to friction:

“Bieber starts acting out... they start having problems and aren't talking for a while. There's a crisis.” [10:03]

Joe reflects on Braun's role in maintaining Bieber's marketability while managing his personal struggles, highlighting the delicate balance required in managing a young superstar.

---

5. Musical Evolution and Resurgence

The conversation shifts to Bieber's musical transformation, particularly with his albums "Purpose" and "Justice." Joe Coscarelli praises Bieber's ability to reinvent himself:

“These producers really use his voice as an instrument and kind of pitch it up, make it into this dolphin-like sound that really hits.” [16:00]

Vanessa adds her perspective on Bieber's lyrical maturity:

“Even though the lyrics are never quite incredible... they are huge hits and so incredibly catchy.” [16:02]

This period marks Bieber's comeback, with critically acclaimed music that reestablished his relevance in the pop industry.

---

6. Recent Developments and Challenges (2025)

Moving towards the present day, the episode addresses Bieber’s recent activities and controversies, including his departure from Scooter Braun's management and the sale of his music rights:

“Reports are sweeping the Internet that Justin Bieber has fired longtime manager Scooter Braun...” [23:35]

Vanessa discusses Bieber's strained relationship with fame and the paparazzi:

“He hates the paparazzi. They're like stalkers with a camera.” [23:39]

Joe Coscarelli elaborates on the overwhelming nature of Bieber's fame:

“It gets so big, it's such an overwhelming amount of fame...” [24:11]

The hosts explore Bieber's recent behavioral changes, fueled by personal and professional pressures, and his attempts to find peace amidst chaos.

---

7. The "Swag" Album and Future Prospects

In a surprising turn, Bieber releases a new album titled "Swag," which is lauded by the hosts as his best work in years. Natalie Robehmed expresses her enthusiasm:

“I think it's really good. It's his best album in years. I can't stop singing 'Uconn'.” [31:53]

Joe Coscarelli highlights the album's blend of mainstream appeal with underground influences:

“He's collaborating with both rap and indie underground artists... making it a coherent package for a mass audience.” [32:37]

The hosts speculate on Bieber's future, contemplating whether he will continue his ascent in the pop world or pivot towards a more independent artistic path.

---

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on Bieber's ongoing struggle with fame and his quest for personal fulfillment. Vanessa remarks on Bieber's potential paths forward:

“He's going to be somebody that we are watching for... I am really interested in how his relationship with religion continues.” [34:01]

Joe Coscarelli adds:

“There's gossip... he's trying to find peace and freedom.” [29:42]

The discussion encapsulates Bieber's complex relationship with fame, his artistic evolution, and the personal challenges that continue to shape his public persona.

---

Notable Quotes

• Joe Coscarelli on Bieber's discovery and potential:

  “He was giving him a hit of this quality, like, that meant something. Like, even at the time... we’re gonna be with this kid for a while.” [02:17]

• Vanessa Grigoriadis on Bieber's stance on fame:

  “He told me he hated photographers... I think he was almost 17.” [23:35]

• Joe Coscarelli on the overwhelming nature of fame:

  “It’s such a overwhelming amount of fame that I think... it becomes the main battle and subject matter of his life.” [24:11]

• Natalie Robehmed on the "Swag" album:

  “It's his best album in years. I can't stop singing 'Uconn'.” [31:53]

---

Conclusion

This episode of Infamous provides an in-depth exploration of Justin Bieber's tumultuous journey through fame, personal struggles, and artistic reinvention. Through insightful commentary and personal anecdotes, Vanessa Grigoriadis, Natalie Robehmed, and Joe Coscarelli paint a nuanced portrait of one of the most enduring figures in modern pop culture.

---

For more behind-the-scenes content and to connect with the Infamous creative team, visit Campsidemedia.com/join.

Transcript

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Campsite Media.

[Natalie Ropamed]

From Sony Music Entertainment and Campsite Media. This is infamous. I'm Natalie Ropamed.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

I'm Vanessa Gregoriadis. And we are finally getting around to talking about the rise and the fall and then the rise again of Justin Bieber. I first met Justin Bieber when He he was 16 years old. I interviewed him for his first cover of Rolling Stone and I was insanely excited about it. I loved his little videos. Baby. One time, if you remember him, when he first came out, he almost felt to me like one of the last of the True Teen 4 Teens stars, even though he quickly transcended that and became somebody that adults loved. But Justin was just a delight when he first burst onto the scene. His mom Patty had raised him. He was raised pretty poor. His mom had been sexually abused as a child. She left home at 15. She got really messed up on drugs and alcohol. She went into the hospital for trying to commit suicide. She then turned her life around. She did become pregnant with Justin. And then Justin just had this talent that the world noticed and decided that he was somebody that needed to be elevated. So I do want to introduce our guest now, Joe Coscarelli, who wrote an excellent book about Atlanta and the hip hop scene down there called Rap Capital that everybody should get and check out. Jo, thank you so much for being here with me and Natalie today.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Thank you. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Natalie fact checked Rap Capital extremely diligently. I still look back at those Google Docs sometimes in amazement.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Let's talk about Justin Bieber. So do you agree with my early characterization that he was teen for teen, or you think it was always meant to be adult music?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, I think you are completely right. Justin Bieber was Teen Pope 3.0, 4.0, depending on how you count the Jackson 5 and the Monkees and the Beatlemania and all of that. He was the current version of that at the dawn of YouTube. And crucially, he was discovered by Scooter Braun, a character I assume we'll talk more about when he was very, very young via these covers that he and his mom were uploading to YouTube. And I was, I believe, a college student when he first started making actual music. His big breakthrough song, Baby, was both a song for kids. It's like the videos at a bowling alley. You remember this? Drake has a cameo in it, which I don't know if most people remember. So I was really into that because we were watching Drake's every move at the time, alongside his rise and crucially, that very first single, that very first smash, was written by the Dream and Tricky Stewart, who Atlanta writers and producers were on a crazy heater around that time. You know, the Dream wrote Umbrella. The Dream wrote Single Ladies. So him gifting this young talent with the swoopy hair and the purple dress shirts, like, him giving him a hit of this quality, like, that meant something. Like, even at the time, before I was covering the music industry like I am now, I. I realized, oh, we're gonna be with this kid for a while. He's coming in at the highest of levels, right?

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

I mean, that's the incredible thing. I remember when I went to interview him in Atlanta, my editor at Rolling Stone said, this kid, he doesn't know he's gonna be Aaron Carter. Like, he doesn't know this is just a moment.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I remember Aaron Carter, rest in peace.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yeah, poor guy. But he doesn't know this is just a moment in time, and this is all gonna change. I thought that was not correct, but I truly will never forget going down to interview him, because the publicist had said to me, okay, you guys need to do a little activity together. How about you go ice skating? And I was like, dude, you know, here I am, like, 30 years old or something, and I'm like, I'm gonna go ice skating with Justin Bieber. I'm not really sure I know how.

[Natalie Ropamed]

To ice skate at this point.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

It's been, like, so many years since I've done this, but I went downstairs sort of anxiously awaiting his arrival. Okay, okay. You know, the SUV is about to pull up. Pulls up. I opened the door and I looked in, and it was like, record scratch. Oh, my God. This is a child. He was, like, 5ft tall. You know, he had Invisaligns in, and he kept popping them out. Cause he was just like, I can't stand these things. He was like, well, what are we going to do? And I was like, well, they said we were going to go ice skating. He was like, okay, that's corny. Let's go to David Buster's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, David Buster's not corny. Although he was probably really good at ice skating. He's Canadian, Crucially.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yes, Crucially. Crucially Canadian. And said things like, the thing is, I love Canada. I don't want to be here. You know, you guys don't even have health care. My bodyguard's baby was born and had problems. He just gets help here. You wouldn't be able to do that. I remember him having a lot of Canadian pride.

[Natalie Ropamed]

This next Question is from Rebecca Campbell. If you could fly to any restaurant in the world right now, which one would you pick and what would you order? I would fly to Canada and eat at Swiss LA and get their quarter chicken dinner. So good.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

But he was at that time of course shot by Terry Richardson, notably the American Apparel big photographer known for doing all of this dirty, sketchy photo shoots. And that's who Rolling Stone had photograph him for this story as a heartthrob, as a James Dean.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean he was a adolescent boy in the early 2000 and tens. Like he liked rap music. Ludacris on his first single Drake's in the video. He became very close very quickly with the sort of third tier hangers on of Lil Wayne's Young Money crew. So there's this guy, little twist, who was Justin's best friend early in fame. You know, they were teenagers together. This is peak pop rap coming out of the CD era into YouTube and just pre streaming. But mixtapes were hot. He's a white kid in America at that time in Atlanta, he wanted to be a rapper just like every other white kid. He didn't look at rock stars, he looked at Lil Wayne. And another through line here, which ties back to my history with Natalie in rap music. You said this profile was in Atlanta. Scooter Braun, who was guiding the career of Justin early on came up as a college student in Atlanta at Emory throwing parties and being a marketing intern for Jermaine Dupri and so, so def. So Bieber from the beginning was surrounded by all of this stuff. He starts making all this money. He's the heartthrob. I'm sure young women are fawning over him. I remember clearly going to something in New York where Scott Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, I think at the declared it Justin Bieber Day and they like gave him a certificate at dingy electronics store. But you know, he's being whisked around the world, he's making all this money, he wants to drive a sports car and so he does. He starts speeding, he starts acting out, he gets into pills and drinking. Like it's a, it's a timeless tale of child stardom which if I've come away from my 10 plus years in this job covering music and popular culture, like my one big stance is child stardom should be legal. It's like the one good use of AI Just replace all of the kids with AI.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

But when you look, aren't they all child stars from.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, and they're all fucked up.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yeah.

[Natalie Ropamed]

And they're all, yeah, this has really been my. This is my platform when I become president of Hollywood is nobody under 18 should be allowed to work or be famous.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

But that's all they want now. All they want is to be famous. But yeah, I mean, when did you start thinking, well, okay, things are going off the rails? You know, was it the TMZ coverage of him getting the DUI and the Lamborghini or the Ferrari or whatever it was, or was the music itself falling off and being stupid or what did you think?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, definitely not. I always felt like it was overstated. I mean, even you talking about him being shot by Terry Richardson, like, that's the Rolling Stone playbook. That's what they did with Britney. With any child star, you want them to be a sexual object, but also a pristine virgin. And it only works if you have both sides of that tension where people like you, I mean, you were a grown woman and you were nervous to go get rizzed up by a 16 year old. I didn't say rizzed up at the time, but you know what I mean. But I do feel like he pushed it a little farther. He was still, you know, he put out a Christmas album that was like his, his second or third album. They were still trying to work him as very G rated. And he was growing up really quickly. And so I think Scooter was doing a lot to sort of tamp down the issues. And I do think we learned later, you know, there were problems at the time with substance abuse and pills and drinking. And, you know, Scooter always says he's a dramatic guy, but he's like, you know, I almost lost him.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

We're talking about Scooter Braun, who famously had big butting head situation with Taylor Swift as well. But Scooter basically was a dude, I believe, from Atlanta. Right. He was a party promoter.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And he's on here. He's from like New York, Connecticut, but yeah, moved to Atlanta for college. Yeah.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

And he's party promoter and he's just like a straight hustler. And he's on YouTube way back in the early 2010s looking for artists to promote basically as an agent for them.

[Joe Coscarelli]

He was looking for his ticket, his star to hitch his wagon to. And he found one. And to his credit, Mold did Justin.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

And he saw him famously, right, busking on a street corner, just like him and his guitar. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And they took it to the stratosphere. But Scooter along the way did a really interesting thing, which is he became a Public figure as a manager. And that's not really something we've seen a ton in modern times. Scooter built his brand alongside Bieber's and then Ariana Grande, and he managed Psy Gangnam Style. He was all over the place, Carly Rae Jepsen. But Bieber was always his prize pig, for lack of a better term.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So Justin's sort of acting out. I mean, it is a sort of Britney story. I mean, really, the story is about fame, I think, in some ways. About Justin. Yes. And always about fame, particularly when you're a child star, because it's just. Your head is just so messed up from that. But Scooter basically and Justin start having problems and they're sort of not talking for a little while. Right. And there's. It's a crisis.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. And I always thought, like, okay, this is normal, this is cool. It doesn't seem like he's really getting too deep in this. It's not going full Britney, especially in this era. This is now we're talking, like 2012, 2013, 2014. And I thought Bieber was pushing back against the strictures that were imposed upon him, and Scooter was managing the situation, trying to let him grow up, but also trying to keep him marketable. And I think Bieber got through that and it was pretty funny. Like, you remember the thing where he's, like, peeing in the kitchen of a restaurant?

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Justin Bieber. Bieber pees into a mop bucket. We have the video cracking jokes about.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, a picture, a framed photo of Bill Clinton that's there. Maybe he pees on the photo.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

You know, he adopted and abandoned a pet monkey. I mean, the monkey.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And this was the same era as the Ariana Donut licking. Like, if you look back on these scandals and it always works like this. Oh, Miley Cyrus on camera smoking a bomb. You know, it's like, it's so quaint now when you look back, especially, like, with what we've been through in the last five to 10 years. And so you're like, okay, like, this is just a teenage boy with a ton of money figuring out how much freedom he can have. And then what happens is he really blooms as a musician. And there's this period in 2015 where maybe even up through then there was, like, some irony in liking Justin Bieber. Right. Oh, these songs are catchy. Look at this little kid do this little angelic little cherub. It's. It's silly. But then he sort of reemerges as an actual pop star and he just has run of hits in 2015 starting with where are you now? And he collaborates with Skrillex and Diplo and they adopt him as these cool uncles and say, no, no, this guy's good. Let us use his angelic voice as an instrument in this peak EDM anthem. And then what do you mean, sorry, Love yourself. You know that era of purpose where Justin Bieber is coming back and saying, I'm a real boy now, but I might be like for real. And I think that's when like a lot of the doubters come around and it just becomes undeniable. I'd say this is his apex.

[Natalie Ropamed]

What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? For a long time I thought it was enough to have good locks and maybe an alarm that would, you know, make a lot of noise if someone actually broke in. But after people close to me were broken into, I've realized that true security takes more a system that works to prevent that break in, that violation of your space from ever happening in the first place. That's why I trust SimpliSafe to protect my home and family. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in. Whereas Simplisafe's new Active Guard Outdoor protection helps stop break ins before they even happen. 4 million plus Americans trust SimpliSafe monitoring plans start around $1 a day with a 60 day money back guarantee. Visit simplisafe.com infamous podcast to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com infamous podcast. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's where Mint Mobile comes in. With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling, literally and financially. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. If I had needed this product, it's what I'd use this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com infamous that's mint mobile.com infamous upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This 2015 album purpose. This Diplo and Skrillex era. This was when I really got on board with Justin Bieber. And I'll never forget watching those videos of him. There's like a video, I think, and I'll show you where he's running through Iceland.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, yeah. What an amazing video.

[Natalie Ropamed]

And, you know, the lyrics are never quite incredible. Some of the lines from that song is, I gotta learn things, learn them the hard way. I gotta see what it feels like no matter what they say, type thing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, it's pretty rudimentary.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Yeah. But they are huge hits and they're so incredibly catchy. And they really. You're right. Those producers really use his voice as an instrument and kind of pitch it up, make it into this dolphin like sound that really, really hits. And this is also the era, by the way, we should say that Justin's religiosity comes to the fore as well. That's something that he talked about in his interview with you, Vanessa, right, in Rolling Stone.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yes, he talked about that a lot. I mean, we talked about God. His mom was saying, don't use the word Jesus. You know, there's power in the word Jesus. Demons are raised in the name of Jesus. When you talk in your concerts, you can talk about God. And so I go to la. I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. They reschedule, of course. And, you know, I'm waiting downstairs with his bodyguard in the Four Seasons bar. We're having a drink. And finally you say, come up to Justin's room. He's got a card for me that says, hey, I'm so happy to talk to you. Love you. It's a Hallmark card. And, like a little googly stuffed animal. And he's like, I just bought these downstairs. And I was like, amazing, thank you. And he was like, I'm really sorry it's been so long since I've had a minute to talk to you. And I was like, don't worry about it. And I have my little list of things I'm going to ask him. And I was really caught up in this idea of Justin has so much power over people. Not Beatles level, but it was. It was getting up there. And so I was really interested in this idea of he has power of these girls. He can make them do what he wants. Let's find out what he really thinks about things. So famously, I knew that he was Very religious. And so I said, hey, well, what do you think about abortion? And he was like, no, no, no, I am against that. That's killing a baby. I'm against that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm laughing. It's just such a ridiculous image. But you got the goods.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

It's so precious. And so I said, well, what about in the case of rape and incest? And he said to his credit, he was like, well, I would really need to think about that. I'm not sure about that. And I was like, well, that's a decent answer. But of course, after I published the story and TMZ got a hold of it, this didn't sound like a good answer that he gave. Right. It just went worldwide to the point where people were writing editorials saying, should she have asked this question? Is it fair? He's 16. I think he was almost 17. And I don't know what to say. Maybe I'm an idiot for asking. I don't know. Joe, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about that. Is that a fair question? Because this kid is getting to influence half of American girls.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, I mean, obviously, I still remember it. It was, what, a decade ago? Like, it's a legendary moment in celebrity journalism in the modern era. In my mind, there's something almost tongue in cheek about it that's laying bare the sort of absurdity of, you know, here I am, grown woman, putting a young teen on the COVID of an international magazine. Like, I think it was. I think it's fair game. It's like, what are his handlers for if not to throw you out of the plane? If you're gonna mention abortion? The question of, like, is it fair? It's like, should an adult be interviewing a child at all? Like, I don't know. We're gonna take it to that level.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

You know, in my mind, it's like the idiocy of having to fly to LA with this little handwritten list of questions, you know, and getting a present from him and then being like, now we're gonna do the assignment, you know, I just feel like, you know, gross. But I do have to say that he struck me as a more serious person in some ways than I think he's been pegged. I mean, you consider him a serious person, or do you just think he's just a good. Good artist, he's just a good musician, and he's got the riz.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think that Bieber, like a lot of child stars and famous people, is uneducated but smart. I think that he is a soulful person. I think he feels a lot really deeply. He seems to be not calloused in the way that you might if you came into Fame and the Game when he did. I think he is alive to the world from my sense of him. I've never spent significant amount of time with him, but I think he's searching. He's always searching for something. And you mentioned his religious beliefs and you mentioned tmz. And I think all that stuff was sort of happening in that same period where he's closely associated with Hillsong in the pop culture. Rise of Hillsong, the sort of megachurch that then crumbled because of Carl Lentz, the pastor's infidelities and Bieber sort of has to distance himself. This is the rise of tmz, which you also mentioned. Justin Bieber was a main character on tmz. His relationship with Selena Gomez being followed by, you know, adults, the ups and downs of a tortured teen romance. And all this stuff is sort of dovetailing. And then to bring us back to this 2015 period, we're talking about, like, I think he's both embracing it head on and saying, like, what is my purpose? What do you mean, where am I now? You know, he's asking these big questions as he's running around the glaciers of Iceland, but there's a tongue in cheek aspect to it as well. Like the merch from that time, I have all of it. It's some of the best pop merch of my lifetime. Just like a giant picture of him with the bleach blonde, crazy hair. And then it just says sorry. It just says sorry in giant font on it. And it's sort of like, you can take this however you want. Like, I'm sorry I gave a bad answer on abortion. I'm sorry I drove my Ferrari too fast in Miami Beach. I'm sorry I broke up with my girlfriend. Even though you think I shouldn't have. You know, it was cool. Like he was glossing over all of the bumps with hits which are the main thing that make everything go away if you're a pop star. And also just with, yeah, with some bad boy sheen but self awareness at the same time.

[Natalie Ropamed]

This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. Yes, JCPenney. And if you've been there recently, you know it's the place to go for jaw dropping looks at brag worthy prices. They've got something special for every style and budget. Not to mention rewards and deals that make finding those hidden gems even sweeter. If you already shop JCPenney. You're already in on the secret. But if. If not, it's time to ask. Wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shop JCPenney.com, yes, JCPenney. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu. Reports are sweeping the Internet that Justin Bieber has fired longtime manager Scooter Braun, and the two haven't spoken in months. For a fee of 200 million, Justin.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Bieber has sold off the entire rights.

[Natalie Ropamed]

To all of his music.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

What is his stance on fame is the question. Right. He told me he hated photographers, right. He didn't really like journalists, and he said, I hate the paparazzi. They're like stalkers with a camera. How come if someone's following you, it's a crime, but they're following you with a camera? It's just okay. Which again, is pretty insightful. But basically, what I think you start to see happen, and Natalie will talk more about this, is him grappling with the fame just starts taking over. Right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It gets so big, it's such a overwhelming amount of fame that I think, yes, it becomes the main battle and subject matter of his life. And when he says he hates journalists, like, he means TMZ and Splash photographers, you know, he's not talking about the New York Times. He doesn't really know what that side of it is, but he knows the people who are hounding him every day.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that is a thread that we'll see in his most viral moment of 2025, which sort of immediately preceded this surprise album, Swag, which we'll get to in a second. But, I mean, before then, he seems to have had, to me, this quiet period and a time when he just seemed to be less in the public eye from sort of, I don't know, 2015 to 2020. I don't know if you agree with that, Joe, but, you know, it was in this period, September 2018, he married Hailey Baldw, was when the music wasn't really hitting is what I would say, at least to me. I mean, in 2020, he had that record changes with Yummy on It. That song did nothing for me. What do you think?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, there was a down period and I remember noticing. And John Carmonica, my colleague, wrote about this. Memorably, on the Purpose Tour, Justin is literally in a glass cage, floating around arenas and looking like the most depressed person I've ever seen in my life. It was like performance art about being a child star. And if I'm not mistaken, he cut that tour short. The same thing happens to him in 2022 when he goes back on the road. Like, you really see all of this weighing on him in public. He didn't put out an album for five years between 2015 and 2020. He wasn't holding up well at that point. That's the expiration date. You mentioned Aaron Carter at the beginning. He's already way surpassed expectations. He's on the Justin Timberlake path, not the Aaron Carter path at that point, but always seemed to be crumbling under the pressures in a way that we never really saw from someone like Justin, who was built for it, who was a robot in terms of, I'm gonna handle my transition to manhood. And, yeah, then you get these two Justin Bieber albums. 2020, 2021. That's justice. Like you said, Yummies on there. Peaches is on the next one. There's Grammy nominations in here. Like this was out. Nominated for Album of the year, I believe he had Song of the Year, Record of the Year nominations. There's an MLK interlude which some people forget on.

[Natalie Ropamed]

I will never forget that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. On justice from 2021. I say to you this morning that.

[Natalie Ropamed]

If you have never found something so.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Dear and so precious to you that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You will die for it, then you aren't fit to live. And so, yeah, it's like Justin is sort of clinging to adult fame, but it feels like it's sort of winding down and he's just more of a celebrity at this point. And it's really hard to know where he's going from there because it really doesn't seem like his heart is in it. He just doesn't seem to want to be doing the things that you have to do to be a star of that level. And you're right. He gets married to his on again, off again childhood love, who's not Selena Gomez. The enduring image to me of the Hailey Baldwin relationship. Maybe this is unfair. There's a GQ profile of Beaver by Katie Weaver, which I think is quite great, if you want to go back and read that. And there's a scene where she's been out interviewing Justin and they return to his hotel room and Hailey is there and she's sitting on the bed and Katie notes that she wasn't looking at her phone, she wasn't watching tv, she wasn't reading magazines. She was just like sitting there staring into space, waiting for Justin to return. So I think I always take that as like a nice summation of their dynamic. But yeah, I thought same with Britney. If Bieber could have just moved back to Saskatchewan, wherever he, you know, wherever in the Canadian wilderness that he's from and got in a, you know, complex of. Of double wides and put a gun range and a race car track and Dave and Buster's there. Like he probably could have lived out the rest of his life happily out among nobody and silence.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Totally. I think there's been several moments of awkwardness and also just concern over Justin Bieber over the last few years where he kind of broke up with Scooter Braun for good in 2023. And since then, there've been a couple videos of Justin looking not quite in his right mind posting things that he shouldn't be posting. Like when Hailey Bieber most recently was on the COVID of Vogue, he posted something on Instagram saying during an argument, I said you would never get on. I said you would never get on the COVID of Vogue. How wrong I was type thing. And it's like, why are you telling us this?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Keep it to yourself.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Exactly. And there was a little bit of a sense of, hey, you're. Your wife might have eclipsed you. She just sold her road beauty for a billion dollars. And then there was the video. I'm a dad, I'm a husband.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're not getting it.

[Natalie Ropamed]

It's not clocking to you. It's not clocking to you that I'm standing on business, is it? This has been so meme. It really took over because immediately he's being accused of not knowing how to use this slang.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think what he meant was, I'm standing on business in my anti paparazzi. This was sort of the apex of his enhancing war with the paps. And that becomes a sort of vicious cycle, which again, I'm saying Brittany a lot, but it's Brittany. He's agitated. The paparazzi wants to catch him agitated. The presence of the paparazzi makes him more agitated. So there. Then there's more paparazzi because him freaking out is worth more when they turn around and sell it to TMZ or whoever it is. So he's getting this growing flock of paparazzi following him as he's sort of having this. I don't want to say a meltdown. He's hanging out with his friends. He's posting recklessly on Instagram. Way too many Instagram stories, but always with, like, the best underground rap music. He seems to be tapping into his taste. I think he frankly looks amazing with his shaved head and, like, his beach bum, California popper chic drug rugs that he was going for. But he also does seem to be struggling, and there's this concern, controlling aspect to it. Just to go back to the phrase itself, it's not clocking to you that I'm standing on business. He's sort of just mashing up a bunch of African American, black vernacular English. But he means it. And I do think he's, like, trying in this moment to find peace and find freedom. The part of this we haven't talked about that's sort of happening in the background is the Diddy trial. And Puff Daddy had been in the orbit of childhood adolescent Bieber. And all of a sudden there's all these rumors that Justin's gonna come up in the trial and that he may have been a victim or a participant in these ditty parties. And I think all of that is really getting to him. Plus the fact that he's split with his longtime protector, manager Scooter. He allegedly owes him tens of millions of dollars from a loan that he took when he canceled his most recent arena tour. You know, all of these things are being thrown in the pot at once, and I know we're getting to this, but he somehow, again, changes the conversation by putting it all in the music.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Yeah. And he releases this album, Swag. Complete surprise. I don't think anybody was expecting it, and I would love to hear what you think, but I think it's really good. It's his best album in years. I can't stop singing Uconn. It's funny as well, these interludes. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but there's this hilarious to me interlude of somebody in the studio saying, know what, Justin? Your soul is black.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Your soul is black.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So, yeah, he basically gets Drew Ski, one of the premier black comedians of the Internet, to be his, like, id, to be the sort of the Greek choir of this album and say, like, you know, I would have said it differently. Like, I would have said business instead of business.

[Natalie Ropamed]

You know, like, he acknowledges the memes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes, he acknowledges the memes. He's tapping into. Yeah, like a sort of underground mixtape spirit. Of doing this, which going back to his early friendships with young aspiring rappers, like, I think he always wanted this. Now that he's free of Scooter, he seems to have been able to tap into that more. He's also collaborating with both rap and indie underground artists that are affording him a huge amount of credibility. Gunna's on this mixtape album, Swag, Sexyy Red, Cash, Cobain. But then he's also working with McGee and Dijon, who are these sort of alt soul songwriters, producers, performers. He put it all together in a way where it really added up to me. The promise of pop music is somebody on Justin Bieber's level being able to pull all these threads from the underground, from these various niches and then make it a coherent package for a mass audience. Daisies, the big hit from this, I think does that really well. And I don't think people and I can include myself in this. Like, I don't think given the amount of mess that he was putting out there publicly on social media and in paparazzi videos, I don't think people thought he had something this potent, this sort of studied, but in a good way.

[Natalie Ropamed]

And I mean it makes me, it makes me excited to see what's next. I think he's going to be somebody that we are watching for, I don't know, the rest of our professional careers probably. And I am really interested in how his relationship with religion continues. I mean, he kind of reminds me of Little Richard oscillating between Christianity and a kind of rock star lifestyle. I'm interested to see where it goes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, and there has been. You mentioned his faith now, like he's sort of post Carl Lentz and Hillsong. He's aligned himself with another celebrity pastor by the name of Judah Smith, I want to say. And it's called Church Home. There's a TMZ article that's like Bieber's friends say it's a cult, but he says he's doing great. You know, it's like he's still enmeshed in this world. But you're right. And I think there's this push and pull now between does he still want to be famous? Does he want to be an A list star? There's gossip, anonymous reports in the music press that there's a another album to follow that's like the real album, the real pop album. This was sort of the mixtape, the warm up, the underground stuff. And he's gonna come back at this huge level and tour arenas again and headline Coachella next year. Like, is he due for another redemption or does he need to be tucked away like a little weirdo outsider artist making cool music with his friends and not be back on that stage? You know, But I think the temptation, especially when you're allegedly in some financial struggles, when your wife is all of a sudden this huge businesswoman, you know, when all this money and offers are being thrown at you, I'm curious to see if he wants that and more to the point, if he's able to resist that if it's not the best thing for him.

[Natalie Ropamed]

Yeah, we'll see. Well, Joe, thank you so much for coming on Infamous.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This was great. Thanks for letting me ramble about my all my Bieber takes from over the years main project right now, Popcast with John Carmonica. We've had some great guests of late. Check out our interview with clips. Addison Rae, Justin Vernon of Bon Iver, et cetera, et cetera. A bunch of exciting stuff happening there. We're on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere. You get your podcasts under the name popcast.

[Natalie Ropamed]

That's it for Infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at at Natrobe. That's N A T R O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book Blurred Rethinking Sex, Power and Consent on Campus. See you next week.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Sam.