Loading summary
Transcript129 lines
- [00:00]
A
This time of year can be tough. The holidays are near and they're supposed to feel joyful, but for so many, they bring stress around. Food, weight and body image. Add in all the talk about weight loss medications and it can feel overwhelming to know what's best for you. That's why hers is here to support your journey so you can feel your best. Weight loss by hers is realistic, not restrictive. Hers provides access to affordable weight loss plans built around oral medication kits and GLP1 injectable options with oral medication kits starting at just $69 per month with a 10 month plan when paid up front in full. Whether you want to lose weight, grow thicker, fuller hair or find relief for anxiety, hers has you covered. Visit forhers.cominfamous to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's F o r h E-R-S.com infamous forhers.com infamous weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the FD Required. See website for full details. Important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan Purchased.
- [01:07]
Campsite Media.
- [01:10]
B
So a few months ago, Vanessa and I were talking about this incredible Bloomberg News investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. They'd gotten their hands on more than 18,000 emails from Epstein's personal Yahoo account, which revealed all sorts of salacious details, from the horrible ways Epstein talked about young women to fawning messages from British Ambassador Peter Mandelson, who was actually fired after Bloomberg's reporting. And Vanessa and I wanted to know, how had they gotten them. Well, one of the bylines behind that trove of information is a guy named Jason Leopold. He's a senior investigative reporter at Bloomberg News, and he's probably one of the most prolific journalists working today. Jason's broken a bunch of stories I've personally been obsessed with over the years, including revealing how the government got its hands on a one of a kind Wu Tang Clan album. Yes, that Wu Tang Clan.
- [02:06]
C
I grew up on the crime side, the New York Times side. Staying alive was no job.
- [02:11]
B
A lot of Jason's reporting comes from FOIA requests, written requests made to the federal government asking for records on a specific topic under the Freedom of Information Act. FOIA requests sound boring and wonky, but they're a super important way that journalists can get information out of what feels like an increasingly opaque government. And actually, anyone can make a FOIA request. You don't have to be a journalist, which is pretty important considering the decimation of local news in recent years. So Today we're talking to Jason and freedom of information lawyer Matt Topic, his co host on a new podcast called Disclosure, all about their joint fight to uncover government secrets. We talk about how Jason got those Epstein emails, how powerful people get treated differently, and what really happened with the one of a kind Wu Tang Clan album. It's a crazy story which involves notorious farmer bro Martin Shkreli Morocco and suing the government.
- [03:14]
And side note, Jason is so in demand, you might notice his phone buzz occasionally in our conversation. Okay, over to Vanessa.
- [03:27]
D
Welcome back to Infamous everybody. A Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment production. So I am Vanessa Gregoriadis, and we are here today with two extremely accomplished people, Jason Leopold and Matt Topic. They are accomplished in the area of aggressive reporting, investigative reporting, things that are not done enough these days, and also using the law to buttress all of that. So we're going to be talking to them about who they are, why they're doing these crazy jobs, why our nation actually rests on people like this doing this kind of work, and how important it is to the stories that Natalie and I tell you, which are about scandal. And we know they might be light sometimes, but a lot of these times, these people are going to federal prison. Big things are going on. We focus a lot about the crisis and the control and how people are putting their message together. But in this episode, we're going to focus on the front end, the people who are doing the work to initially break the scandal. And we're going to be talking also about one pharma bro scandal that I have a feeling you will know something about. And this mystery that happened with.
- [04:46]
An album that only one copy was made of. It's a very weird story, but for now, thank you to Jason and Matt.
- [04:54]
E
Thank you.
- [04:55]
C
Thank you.
- [04:55]
E
Great to be here.
- [04:56]
D
So, Jason, let's start with you. You were a guy who was a reporter. You were also an addict. And now.
- [05:07]
E
Oh, man.
- [05:08]
D
And you've cleaned that all up.
- [05:10]
E
Wow. Stunned me. You went back.
- [05:13]
D
I've done my research here, but tell me what happened. You just were driven to be a reporter, but you did develop a substance abuse habit and then were able to totally clean that up.
- [05:23]
E
In fact, since you've asked, let's see. I have been clean and sober for.
- [05:32]
27 years.
- [05:35]
D
Wow.
- [05:36]
E
Which is weird because I'm 35 and.
- [05:42]
You know, so, I mean, Jason's talking with dog years. You know, it was really, really young. I was really young. But yes. And I did write a book about it, and my addiction predates journalism, so it was, you Know, very decadent time in the 90s. I used to work in the music business. That's like nine lifetimes ago, maybe even 10 people. I think I've had more than nine lives. And, you know, journalism was always kind of like the fallback career because I love music.
- [06:12]
D
What kind of music were you like? What was the genre?
- [06:15]
E
Well, it, it runs the gamut. Punk music is kind of my, you know, my. My go to thrash metal, which is how Matt and I kind of bonded. But then also like the old college rock. That's what, that's what we used to call it. But honestly, it's wide ranging. I mean, I love jazz and blues. So I've got a band T shirt collection of like more than 2,000 T shirts. I was like, that's one thing I. By the way, you asked, do I want.
- [06:46]
B
That's a lot of T shirts.
- [06:47]
E
I want to plug my T shirt collection.
- [06:51]
You know, I want to plug my T shirt collection. So to your question, you know, I was in my 20s and I lived that kind of decadent lifestyle. Journalism was always a kind of a fallback career. So when, you know, everything imploded due to or thanks to lots of substances, you know, it was time to pursue that fallback career, which was journalism.
- [07:12]
D
But you basically, and Matt, we're going to get to you and your love of thrash metal in a minute. You basically characterize it like, I needed these scoops, right? Like, scoops drove me. And you are known sort of as this master negotiator. And you're able to get people maybe by just nudging them and calling them constantly, or maybe by triangulating, telling, you know, different things.
- [07:40]
E
Don't you just want to tell me everything?
- [07:43]
D
I mean, come on, to get a T shirt.
- [07:46]
E
Don't feel like we're talking now. You know what, you want to tell me stuff, right? But yeah, no, I mean, this is not like any kind of secret or sources and methods when I'm pursuing a story. And this has always been sort of like, you know, my mantra is meeting with people who are in the know and essentially coming across as a person, as a human, and not necessarily wearing the reporter's hat or dressing in reporter attire. And so I think people are able to let their guard down, you know, a bit when they. When they speak to me. You know, I think that in terms of trying to get information from people, every reporter has a different technique, you know, but it's really, you know, ultimately you need to win the trust of these folks, and they have to trust that they're gonna be in good hands.
- [08:44]
D
And, Matt, you are listening to some thrash metal and you're fighting the FOIA denials you've written. Tell us about. Maybe you can make it sound as cool and avant garde as Jason did, or maybe not, because you're doing a. Of filing to try to find out what the government is hiding, then saying, you gave me this document. It's too redacted. Right. I imagine that you gotta be, like, super calm during a lot of this. Right. Or you would just live your life in a constant state of anger and stress.
- [09:23]
C
Yeah, I think that's. That's true. I try to be kind of Zen in a. In a true, legitimate Zen fashion about all this, but I think if I'm being honest, I'm a little more in it for going to court and having a judge say that I was right in the federal government or the city of Chicago or whoever was wrong. Like, I just. I really. What scoops are to Jason, that's what, like, winning in court is to me, is that I was right and they were wrong. And I think, you know, we don't win every case, but we win a lot more than we lose. So I feel pretty good about our. About our track record. So I've found over the years of being a lawyer, and I started at a big firm, super contentious stuff, very, very high pressure. And I just, you know, I used to get worked up about things. And then I've found over the years that kind of the most satisfying thing when your opponent is lying or mischaracterizing things or being needlessly difficult is to just calmly go about your business and just eviscerate their arguments on the merits. Like, there's no need to jump up and down and shout. It's actually even more fun when they get all agitated and you just stay really calm and just calmly point out why they're just completely and 100% wrong.
- [10:35]
D
Well, let's explain a little bit what FOIA is to people who, you know, don't work in the media field or in the field of law.
- [10:41]
C
FOIA is a statute. We call it foia, Freedom of Information act for the federal government in a lot of states that have. Every state has their own law like this. Many of them call them Freedom of Information Act. Sometimes they're called Sunshine Laws or Public records laws or open records laws or stuff like that. And what they all have in common is they start from a premise that if the government has a record and it's about government business, then you're presumptively entitled to a copy of that if you ask for it, except for a list of things where the government's allowed to withhold it, like people's Social Security numbers, things that would jeopardize national security, things that would compromise ongoing investigations. Like, there's a whole list of things, and that's what we end up fighting about. Jason makes a request. They say, you can't have this because of X, Y and Z reasons. We say we don't agree. We go to court. And it's the government's burden to prove that they have a basis to withhold it. So we basically file a suit and say, prove it. Prove that you can withhold this. And a lot of times they can't. They're either misapplying the law or all these. There's, like, factual bases for all these. Like, if you're going to say it's going to interfere with an ongoing investigation, then you have to prove that they're actually is an investigation and that actually would be interfered with. It's something that anybody can do. You don't have to be a journalist. I represent, you know, nonprofits. I represent just individual people who are pissed off about something that's going on in their town. Like, there's accidents all the time at this intersection. Why are they not doing anything about it? Well, make a FOIA request and find out. Or there's all these arrests at this bar down the street. Like, what's going on there? Well, foia, you can get the police reports and find out.
- [12:17]
D
I just want to talk about Epstein for a second because the whole nation is talking about Epstein emails right now. But you guys got 18,000 emails from his Yahoo address a couple of months.
- [12:29]
E
Ago, but that was not through foia.
- [12:33]
D
Where'd you get them?
- [12:36]
E
Well, that's a great question, and unfortunately, I'm gonna have to glomar it.
- [12:43]
So I can neither confirm nor deny. Any.
- [12:48]
Idea where you think I got them from?
- [12:50]
C
No.
- [12:51]
E
Let's go back to your questions. Like, Jason, you know, tell me about how you talk to people and get them to trust you. Well, that falls into that bucket.
- [13:00]
D
I can only assume there is a bit of a white whale here, which is all of the Epstein files. If you could get your hands on all of the Epstein files, the photos, the videos, everything, you can redact them yourself. How would that go down? Would you publish those?
- [13:16]
E
That's a great question. Would I publish all that? So here's what we know, right? Is that, at least according to the justice department, the FBI, they amassed 300 gigabytes of documents, audio, video, and that covers nearly 20 years of their investigations revolving around Epstein. There's a lot there with victims. That's not something you just want to throw out there because you need to protect the identities of victims. You don't want to re traumatize victims. So, I mean, I would certainly be interested in, you know, how the government, the FBI, doj, handled that. I mean, you mentioned the emails, you know, the 18,000 emails. I mean, from those emails, just over the past two months, you know, my colleagues and I have put together some revelatory stories. So I would say that it would kind of be similar to the way I treat any document I get out of the government. You know, how is taxpayer dollars being used? What was hidden? What doesn't the public know about?
- [14:29]
D
What does the next six months of this Epstein situation look like? The files are going to get released, but we don't know if they'll be hugely redacted. We don't know if all the files are going to come out. Do we know if Trump is in there? If perhaps his Justice Department, who is in charge of releasing these files. Right. Would selectively release. Are we just going to drip, drip, drip this thing and talk about this for the rest of our lives?
- [14:56]
E
Well, I'll answer the last question first, which is, yes, we will talk about it for the rest of our lives. First of all, we actually don't know if the files will be released. The Justice Department needs to release records. But don't forget, Trump also said he's asked Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, to investigate the Clintons. Larry Summers, JPMorgan bank so now you have an active investigation that's taking place out of the Southern District in New York. And usually, and Matt and I see this often in our FOIA cases when there is an ongoing investigation, government agencies will say we can't release any documents. So we actually don't know if anything will be released yet. But in terms of if it is released and it's 300 gigabytes, that. Oh, yeah, that would probably just be released in stages.
- [15:51]
And it would take an incredibly long time to just get that out to the public.
- [15:58]
D
I mean, I guess the thing, the reason this story, the Epstein story, has caught on so much is that it does show that there is an elite. Whether he has typos in his email or not, he's a member of the elite, and there are these guys and they believe that the normal rules of the world don't apply to them, and that's everything from underage girls to trying to mess with the media and politics and blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, do you guys feel like this is a story everybody wants to talk to you about when you go see your friends on a Friday night? And is that characterization that I just gave the right one? That it actually in some ways proves what you guys are doing in life, which is trying to reveal the government secrets? It's sort of has brought that to the masses and everybody feels like it's a really righteous pursuit that you're on.
- [16:56]
C
Yeah, I think it, it is eye opening to people. I mean, to your point. Yes. I mean, this shows powerful people get treated differently, which I think most people acknowledge. But just really seeing that, I mean, even, just especially how Epstein himself was treated and the sort of very gracious plea agreement that he originally had. Right. So I think people are already suspicious of that and this just confirms that. But I think the way that the government has gone about handling this just really further erodes whatever remaining trust there was in government in this country. The way this is being used as a football, like, oh, release it. Oh, no, no, don't release it. Oh, now we're going to release it again. And it's just like, it's a mess. It's a disgrace. Like, this is no way to run a country. I think it's the kind of thing that people are just so, so fed up with. Just. And it's both parties. It's just so much is both parties. This is not just a Donald Trump thing. This is not just a Republican thing. This is both parties. And it's all levels of government that they just, they just see this as like their privilege and their right to be in office and don't care about what it does to faith and democracy to just willy nilly decide when you're going to release and when you're not for totally political reasons. So, yeah, to answer your question, I do get those sorts of questions and have those kinds of discussions.
- [18:24]
E
It really is about also government secrecy. This was investigation handled by the FBI and the Justice Department, which allowed Epstein to plead guilty to a state, a state sex crimes charge. And you know, truly what happened, how did, how did that happen? You know, what's the government side of it? And that's what, you know, some people want to find out and others want to find out who's on the list, the client list. What's that? Where's that list?
- [18:59]
D
Yeah, where's the list?
- [19:00]
A
Where's the list?
- [19:01]
E
So it's definitely going to be, you know, discussed for a long time.
- [19:20]
A
Around the holiday season. I have so much to do. I do not want to be on the phone on hold dealing with some issue at the bank. Chime isn't just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay, which gives you access to up to $500 of your paycheck anytime. It's also rated five stars by USA Today for customer service so you can Talk to real humans 247 if I could talk to my younger self I would tell her to get the new Chime card. It's a great and safe way to build credit history with your own money and get rewarded just like with a credit card. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.cominfamous that's chime.cominfamous Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking Services the secured Chime Visa credit card and my K line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. My pay eligibility requirement apply and credit limit ranges 20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertise annual percentage yield with Chime+ status only. Otherwise 1% APY + no minimum balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. Do you have that one person on your list who is such a struggle to shop for? I know I do. I'm not saying who they are, but this year they are getting an Aura frame. It's the perfect gift that's so personalized and I know that they're actually going to enjoy it. You can preload photos before it ships. That means photos of that really awesome vacation you took together or photos of you guys together. Last season. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag, so that's one less gift to wrap for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting Oraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using the promo code infamous at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code infamous. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays and support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
- [21:25]
D
Let's switch gears and talk about a story that Nobody is talking about right now, but is really interesting. And you guys did some incredible work on this. So I'm going to throw it over to Natalie.
- [21:36]
B
So we are going to talk about Martin Shkreli, who is a person who has somewhat disappeared from the forefronts of our minds, but really was everywhere at a certain point. And he was the farmer bro and the person who was the object of a lot of people's ire.
- [21:53]
D
Actually, Martin Shkreli was called the most hated man in America after he raised the price of a drug that was used by AIDS and cancer patients. Hypocrite of his time. Right. He was the guy who was selling a drug that people needed for immense amounts of money just because he could.
- [22:10]
C
But can I push on that for a second, please, before you jump in?
- [22:13]
D
Yes.
- [22:14]
C
I don't know that. I don't know that he's a hypocrite. I think he's just blatantly open. He's like, it's capitalism. I don't care if these people.
- [22:21]
D
That is true.
- [22:22]
C
I just want to make a bunch of money for my shareholders. That's what capitalism is all about. Like, I don't think he hit it. I think that's why I was so smug, is it's not a crime to choose the price of your product. You know, it's your job to explore the frontier of that price and volume curve, and it your job to sort of find the maximum revenue.
- [22:39]
D
I always felt like the fact that he said that was just like. I mean, again, this happened a number of years ago in 2025. People feel open saying this all the time, like, I'm just trying to make money. Why are you getting in my way? But I felt like back then, the fact that he was so open about like, I'm going to jack up the price of this drug. I want to make money.
- [23:00]
C
Right.
- [23:02]
Which is just. I mean, it just has all the makings of a classic villain. I mean, he's played that part perfectly.
- [23:09]
B
So, I mean, Jason or Matt, can you tell us a little bit about him and his company and what he was known for besides being a hip hop fan?
- [23:17]
E
I mean, he was also a hedge fund manager. Right? I mean, so he's known for his congressional testimony, being smug, jacking up the price of this drug. But he also is a hedge fund manager. And probably what is lost or under the radar is the fact that when he was arrested, charged, prosecuted, convicted, and jailed, it didn't have anything to do with the drug. It had to do with defrauding investors. So it's that side of Shkreli that people probably don't realize. He's a guy on Wall Street.
- [23:57]
B
So let's talk about this Wu Tang album that would eventually come into his hands through an auction that you guys did a lot of fantastic reporting about.
- [24:08]
C
Once Upon a Time in Shaolin. Just one physical copy of the CD.
- [24:12]
E
Was created after its completion in 2013.
- [24:16]
C
With no digital versions.
- [24:18]
E
The only existing copy of the Wu Tang Clan album Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, which Shkreli purchased for $2 million. Not only that, if he didn't send in the cancellation postcard, the record club kept sending him $2 million records every month. That's how you get you.
- [24:37]
B
What was this album and what was the big deal around it?
- [24:41]
C
So I sort of think of it almost as a bit of performance art. It's a one one of a kind album. So they make the album and then sell one copy with all these restrictions, like you can't make copies, you can't play it. All this.
- [24:56]
E
It's.
- [24:57]
C
It's a really, like, intricate arrangement that means that only one person ever gets to hear it. And if you look at it as a piece of performance art, like, it's hysterical. But the basics of it is that it's. It's a single copy. And it sold for what, million And a half, $2 million? Something like that?
- [25:15]
B
Yeah, it was this Wu Tang album that was encased in this custom nickel silver box. The album is called Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, and it had this really great sort of story to it that it came from Morocco, and then the box itself is super ornate, and it has the Wu Tang W. The symbol on it. And the idea was to kind of try and elevate a piece of music that could ostensibly be gotten for free, now that streaming existed, into a work of art that could be purchased as a collectible.
- [25:46]
E
Yeah, I think the fact that.
- [25:50]
The album was just a single copy of it, but then building the whole mythical story around it, you know, the presentation of it, the, you know, the listening party at MOMA where you can only hear 13 minutes of it. I mean, this was. I mean, it was really hyped up. To me, that was. You know, that was fascinating when it ultimately ended up in Shkreli's hands, that sort of, like, I don't know, that diminished the value, perhaps.
- [26:23]
B
Well, I mean, we should also say that this was a time when there was a lot of overlap between Silicon Valley and the hip hop world. Like, Kanye west was meeting with the guys from Andreessen Horowitz. So in some ways, it's. I mean, it's strange, but in some ways, it's perhaps shouldn't be surprising that this special Wu Tang album would end up in the hands of Martin Shkreli, but then eventually in the hands of the federal government. So can you tell me what happened and how that occurred?
- [26:53]
C
Yeah. So Shkreli gets charged with defrauding investors. Right. And what often happens in cases like that is, you know, there's going to be criminal ramifications to that. Right. I think he served some time, Jason.
- [27:06]
E
Right, he did.
- [27:07]
C
But there's also victims who are owed restitution. And so you can start seizing and selling the assets of the defendant in order to satisfy the restitution that they owe to their victims. And lo and behold, one of those assets is this album. And so in order to help satisfy what he owes, the government has to sell it. They have to go through an auction process, or, you know, they have to go through a fair process to sell it and recover money that then can be used to pay the restitution. So that's how they end up with a copy of it, because they seize the asset as part of the criminal case.
- [27:42]
B
So tell me about the reporting that you did on this.
- [27:46]
E
So I was fascinated by the fact that the government seized it. Right. And to me, wow. The government seized. Once Upon a Time in Shaolin.
- [28:00]
C
What?
- [28:02]
E
Holy cow. That.
- [28:03]
B
Yeah. Do we know what Wu Tang thought about this? You know, RZA thought about this.
- [28:08]
E
I mean, I, over the years, tried to get comment out of. Out of Wu Tang and got nothing. So I don't really know exactly what he thought. I think there have been some comments along the way about Shkreli, but really nothing about the fact that the government seized the album. So the government seizes the album, and there's silence for about three years until they auction it off. In 2021, they make this announcement, the U.S. marshal Service and the Justice Department, that they've sold it. They've auctioned off this album. Like what? They've auctioned off Once Upon a Time in Shaolin.
- [28:48]
C
Get the fuck out of here.
- [28:53]
E
So immediately, because this is where my brain goes. I'm like, documents, you know, oh, there's gotta be documents. Oh, what were they doing behind the scenes? Did anyone listen to the album? I've gotta file a report.
- [29:08]
B
Federal agent sitting there listening to this Wu Tang album. That would be incredible.
- [29:13]
C
When you do this kind of work, this. Absolutely. This is where your brain immediately goes. Like, you see something in the news you're like, oh, there must be some documents about that. You hear about something, There must be some documents on there. What documents can I ask for? Like, it's like the immediate place that.
- [29:27]
E
My brain goes, oh, yeah, all the time. And not only that, but I was like, oh, if there's. There are documents. And I was sure that there were, they're probably the greatest fucking documents in the world. We don't even know who they sold it to, because that was a secret. So immediately I'm like, we need to get these documents. So I filed this Freedom of Information act request with the Justice Department, and then after that, the US Marshals Service, and I kind of asked for everything. I asked for photographs of the album. I asked for the bill of sale. I asked for emails where they were discussing the album. I asked for details on who the buyer was. I also knew that as soon as I filed this request that I wanted to sue. Right. Because oftentimes you will file a request, or most requesters, you file a Freedom of Information act request, they kind of sit back and wait. Well, I hope I get those records soon. No, no, no. I wanted to sue, and I immediately called madam.
- [30:29]
D
Why? Why? Because it was just so crazy. Or, like, what was the reason?
- [30:32]
E
Well, probably a couple of reasons. One, I wanted to be able to report that we got the first documents. I wanted to be the one to kind of break the story about the government's records related to Once Upon a Time in Sheldon. Also, you know, how cool is it to have a lawsuit that says, you know, Jason Leopold versus, you know, and my news organization versus Justice Department? And, like, the first page, which Matt wrote is, you know, once Upon a Time in Shaolin Wu Tang Clan. Like, that's awesome. Like, that goes on my wall.
- [31:04]
D
Yeah, you're framing that with all your band T shirts. Yes, exactly.
- [31:09]
E
But seriously, like, it. To me, this was just such a great. It felt like such a great request, and the kind of request that would result in many, many, many records. And so I emailed Matt and I said, you know, I want to sue. Like, want to sue right away.
- [31:30]
C
People should understand this, that the statute has deadlines, and those deadlines are just rampantly violated by federal agencies. Like, they do not comply with the deadlines. And so unless you want to wait in a really long line for a really long time, you have to go to court to get them to start processing the request right away, or else you're going to wait in line sometimes, like, for years. And it's it. Here's this. This is how bad it is. There's a thing called still interested letters, which is if, like, years go by and they still haven't gotten to your request, they will send you a letter that says, hey, it's been a really long time. Do you even still care about this? Which to me is like, if I just don't pay my taxes, and then five years later I'm like, hey, government, I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't pay my taxes five years ago. If you're still interested in me paying my taxes, then, like, you have 30 days to notify me.
- [32:23]
B
So you sue the Department of Justice and you ask them to release the records, and they do, and what do you get?
- [32:32]
E
So the first release, which actually was pretty quick, what they turned over was the. Was photographs of. Not the actual physical CD itself, right? Or the CD case or the artwork around the actual album, but photographs of this nickel box that it was held in, which you described earlier. So it's these incredible photographs of that in, like, probably a conference room at the, you know, at the Department of Justice or at Marshall Service. So it was like, you know, on a table, interestingly. And also what infuriated me is that they redacted the.
- [33:23]
Song titles. That was something that they said was a trade secret. And at that time, at that point, we already knew what the tracks were on the, on the album, right? When I say what we knew, I mean it was. I think there's a website set up and already revealed what, what those tracks were. So the government, like, withheld that. And they also withheld the. They disclosed the bill of sale, but they withheld how much the person or the group, who. Group of people who bought the album, how much they paid for it, what, you know, what the auction price was. And so there was important details that thing withheld that I really, really wanted.
- [34:03]
C
So we just negotiated a deal. We're like, we'll just let go of the rest of the emails. You can withhold the name of whoever the buyer is, because what they were saying is like, the connection between the buyer and the amount was the issue. So we're like, well, we'll just take the amount and forget about the buyer. And they agreed. And so he got the. We got the amount that it was.
- [34:22]
E
Purchased for, but it took three years. Three years to get the amount. Three years. I mean, that's how invested I was in this.
- [34:38]
A
Here's the thing about being a great gift giver. When you find something truly perfect for everyone on your list, you almost don't want to give it away? That's what happened with my Quince order. Everything's so soft and well made. I'm seriously tempted to keep it all for myself. Quince pretty much has your whole list covered. Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 when you'd normally pay 200 or more. They're the kind of sweaters you'll wear on repeat. Then there's denim that goes with everything, silk tops and skirts for when you need to look put together. I recently got an Australian merino wool collared cable cardigan. It's a bit of a tongue twister, but it's the most comfortable sweater in my closet and I can't stop wearing it. Fine. Gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quint. Go to quint.cominfamous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.cominfamous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.cominfamous.
- [35:39]
When I moved to New York City, I thought it would be easy to find a therapist. But finding one who actually takes your insurance and who you like, that's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket. Rula does things differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Plus, Woola sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is helping you move forward. Thousands of people are already using Woola to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit woola.cominfamous to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. That's r u l a.com infamous you deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
- [36:41]
B
So essentially the final chapter of this story occurred in this summer, July 2025, when you discovered how much the government actually sold the album for, which was $2.2 million, the amount that Shkreli actually owed the government. What did you make of that? And is that the. Is there anything else to add to this story? I mean, will we ever get to hear this album?
- [37:10]
E
Well, that's what I mean. Honestly, that's what I was hoping to get from the emails where, you know, you got a couple of Justice Department lawyers or a bunch of them throwing a listening party inside Main justice in Washington. But no emails revealed that. However, we did get one email where one Justice Department attorney said that she was excited and she's gonna get her Shaolin lid. We still have no clue what a Shaolin lid is, but it's gotta be the hat. It's gotta be.
- [37:38]
C
It's gotta be.
- [37:39]
E
Yeah, it's gotta be the hat. But, you know, you'd be hard pressed to find anything on Google that describes what a Shaolin lid is. But we found out what the corporate entity was. To me, that was kind of important in terms of who purchased the album, what was the name of the company, and it was WTC Endeavors. It doesn't hold any real meaning because the individuals behind it are not well known. And what else was able to determine is that this crypto collective called Pleaser Dao that ultimately became the owners of the album, they were not the ones who actually purchased it from the government through the auction. So what we discovered is that there was another entity that handled the purchase, which then sold it to this crypto collective that has it now named Pleaserdao. And it's funny because I, after, you know, I put this story out around it and shared the documents, you know, I saw some hip hop magazines and publications discuss it, and I think everyone sort of was like, damn, you know, two point over $2 million that the government sold it for. So, you know, Shkreli said he bought it for one and a half million. That's what he said. It kind of went back and forth between one and a half and two. And ultimately the government sold it for 2.2. So, you know, it increased in value.
- [39:06]
B
Wu Tang stock went up. Yeah, I mean, I do have to say, I mean, of course, it's a crypto entity that bought this album. I mean, that is so of our time. But like, I mean, I saw that they released a very short clip of it, of the record. But, like, do you think we're ever going to be able to hear this album?
- [39:27]
E
Well, oh, no. I mean, one. The only way you can hear it, I think you hear clips of it if you pay a dollar in bitcoin. Right. The album cannot be. I'm laughing because it just is hilarious.
- [39:43]
Has to remain under sort of this strict control. No real broadcast or listening parties around it for 88 years. So, no, I mean, I don't think that will happen. And in addition to that, because Shkreli has made an attempt to do that, and I think he's Been accused of keeping copies of it. Cuz he's now the subject of a lawsuit by the crypto collective for keeping copies of the album and trying to play it.
- [40:16]
B
So this guy Shkreli just keeps taking L's.
- [40:19]
E
Yeah, I know, he's, he's. When you talk about once a time in Shaolin, I mean, his name immediately comes up, right? Because he was the one, you know, that had it. And it sort of became perhaps even more mythical because the Justice Department seized it.
- [40:36]
B
So tell us where people can find you and tell us some of the other stories that you're looking at in your new podcast.
- [40:44]
E
I'm at Bloomberg. I'm the senior investigative reporter at Bloomberg News. I've got a newsletter where I talk about, write about documents that I probably lose out of the government because I am constantly filing requests. Always file, always be filing, always abf. Always be filing, abf, always be filing. On the podcast, Matt and I want to take listeners on a journey because the backstory to how we get these documents is great.
- [41:17]
It's the same with Wu Tang Clan, where I'll call Matt up on I have a phone call and I'll say, God damn it, Matt, the Justice Department withheld this on the trade secrets. We got to go after them and what the hell is this? And Matt will be much more calmer than I am and say, okay.
- [41:40]
Here'S what we'll do. Some of the episodes that we have on the podcast have been a deep dive into White House toilets. Did Trump really flush documents down the toilet? And if he did, can they be recovered? How Russian pranksters duped the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell.
- [41:59]
C
We try to do a lot of stories that, like, they make us laugh. Like they're, they're funny, they're quirky little things about the government and the government's interaction with quirky parts of the world. But it really well illustrates the bigger issues in a way that I think sort of the more dry kind of stories don't necessarily do. When you think about like, well, why did we have to sue the government in order to get these records released, it tells you a lot about how government operates. And so like, you can really look behind the scenes and get a much better feel for how the government is really operating than you're ever going to get from government press releases and talking points and all that stuff that I think people are so just sick and tired of hearing the voice of like the White House press person just talking in that political voice that you just, you don't even hear it anymore because it's just blah, blah, blah, garbage, right? And I think it's meant to be empowering to show you that there are things you care about, especially, I mean, look, if you're a regular person, you want to take on the Justice Department, have at it. Call me. I'm happy to potentially help you do that. But think about your town, especially if you're not in a major metropolitan city. You probably don't have a newspaper anymore or maybe you have some online news if you're lucky. Well, you want to know what's going on? How are your government officials using the government issued credit cards? Are they taking trips to conferences in Las Vegas? Are they wasting your money? You can do those things and increase, especially as local press has really been hit hard. It's on you to do those things. And we want to really help people to understand how they can do that.
- [43:36]
E
FOIA is punk.
- [43:43]
Yeah, it's punk.
- [43:52]
B
That's it for Infamous this week. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to check out Jason and Matt's new Bloomberg show disclosure wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.
- [44:11]
E
Foreign.
- [44:18]
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means means of half day.
- [44:38]
D
Yeah.
- [44:38]
E
Give it a try at mintmobile. Com.
- [44:40]
A
Switch Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network busy taxes and fees extra. Cmtmobile.
- [44:48]
D
Com.