Prince Andrew | Part 5

Summary

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Infamous Podcast: Prince Andrew | Part 5

Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Natalie Robehmed
Guest: Andrew Lowney (Royal Biographer, author of The Rise and Fall of the House of York)

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Overview

The final installment of Infamous’s deep dive into Jeffrey Epstein’s network centers on Prince Andrew, his entanglements with Epstein, and the broader implications for the royal family and powerful elites. Hosts Vanessa Grigoriadis and Natalie Robehmed, along with royal biographer Andrew Lowney, explore newly surfaced evidence, ongoing cover-ups, and the persistent cultural impact of the scandal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Epstein Fallout and The “Epstein Files”

Timestamps: 01:18–07:37

• U.S. Congress is actively seeking to release all FBI files related to Epstein. President Trump is reportedly blocking the process, fueling speculation that these files may implicate someone close to him.

  • Vanessa Grigoriadis: “President Trump has stopped that process probably because there's something in there that he doesn't want people to see.” (01:36)

• In political circles, there’s direct fallout: UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer fired British ambassador Peter Mandelson due to his close friendship and correspondence with Epstein.

  • Natalie Robehmed: “Mandelson was in the birthday book, writing that Jeffrey was his best pal...suggesting that Epstein's 2008 conviction...was wrongful.” (02:22)

• Bloomberg obtained 18,000 Epstein emails, revealing elaborate PR strategies and Epstein’s manipulation of associates. A spreadsheet showed lavish gifts handed out to influential contacts, including luxury cars, watches, and gifts to those who reported sexual abuse.

  • Vanessa Grigoriadis: “She wants to give a $35,000 watch to an aide of Bill Clinton. A $71,000 Lexus car for Alan Dershowitz...lingerie and chocolates going to some of the women who had lodged different sexual abuse complaints.” (04:17)

• The emails also indicate a network of “recruiters”—often women—sending photos of young women to Epstein for approval, highlighting his predatory system.

  • Vanessa Grigoriadis: “He had a ton of people around him who were essentially pimping on his behalf.” (05:35)

2. Public Action by Survivors and the Prince Andrew “Client List”

Timestamps: 06:34–07:37

• Victims of Epstein in Washington, D.C., announced their intent to compile a list of Epstein’s known associates—a move fraught with legal risks but intended to pressure public accountability.
• Andrew remains the most visible casualty thus far of these new revelations.

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3. Andrew & Epstein: Origins and the Royal Connection

Guest: Andrew Lowney
Timestamps: 07:37–12:37

• Conflicting stories exist about how Prince Andrew met Epstein, but the most plausible is that Andrew’s ex-wife, Sarah Ferguson (Fergie), helped connect him to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell via their New York social circles.

  • Andrew Lowney: “Fergie and Ghislaine were moving in social circles in New York in the 1990s, and it was Fergie who introduced Andrew to Epstein.” (07:45)

• Sarah Ferguson's financial motivations and her commercial ventures (ocean spray, Weight Watchers, Wedgwood) are portrayed as the prototype of modern royal monetization, a forerunner to Meghan Markle’s path, though notably more effective.

  • Andrew Lowney: “She basically was available to sell herself to the highest bidder...She just did it with a bit more charm and success.” (09:25)

• Both Andrew and Fergie leveraged their royal status for access to luxuries and global networks, using royal connections to sustain a lavish lifestyle.

  • Andrew Lowney: “They knew that they can make this money, that they're protected. No one is really going to provide any sort of scrutiny. So they've got away with it for 30 years, just basically shamelessly monetizing their position in the royal family.” (12:01)

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4. The Royal Family, Power, Intelligence — and Compromise

Timestamps: 13:32–16:24

• Andrew’s role as a royal offered unique leverage in forging relationships with global intelligence and political circles.

  • Andrew Lowney: “If you're in the Royal family, you can invite anyone you want to lunch or dinner...He would have picked up information from people that could be useful elsewhere. Certainly there's a lot of Kompromat on him.” (14:04)

• Robert Maxwell (Ghislaine’s father) is depicted as an “information broker” linked to British, Russian, Mossad, and CIA circles, and is said to have set up and funded Epstein. Ghislaine’s denials are broadly dismissed.

  • Andrew Lowney: “You can't believe everything that Ghislaine Maxwell says. I mean, she's been proven liar at her trial.” (15:37)

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5. Money, Motive, and the Ghislaine/Andrew/Epstein Triangle

Timestamps: 18:28–21:44

• Financial support and influence were reciprocal: Epstein received connections and legitimacy from Ghislaine and Andrew; in turn, he repaid them with money and sexual access.

  • Andrew Lowney: “She [Ghislaine] was a very effective procurer for him because she was well educated, well spoken, a female...Andrew admitted also that Epstein gave him good contacts.” (18:57)

• The relationships were “transactional and commoditized”—centered on sex, money, and mutual benefit.

  • Andrew Lowney: “Everything is transactional. Everything is a commodity...They all were able to network using each other's group of networks, and that made them much, much more effective.” (20:15)

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6. Knowledge and Guilt: Did Andrew Know?

Timestamps: 20:50–27:32

• Lowney is unequivocal: Andrew must have known about underage girls at Epstein’s properties.

  • Andrew Lowney: “Anyone who went to the houses said it was pretty obvious...there was phallic soaps and pictures of naked girls around. No one could have any possible reason not to believe that this was a highly sexualized environment.” (21:14)

• Epstein's financial support of Fergie’s debts is greatly understated publicly; the real sums were far higher and deepened Andrew’s entanglement.

  • Andrew Lowney: “The figure I was given was more like 2 million. But, you know, he had Andrew really around his little finger and he could begin to call in favors.” (21:55)

• Andrew and Trump’s relationship involved “locker room” banter about women, suggesting their bond was built on shared sexual interests, not diplomacy.

  • Andrew Lowney: “When Trump and Andrew met, they had sort of locker room conversations, talking about women in pretty vulgar terms, swapping lists of masseurs.” (22:56)

• The infamous BBC Newsnight interview amplified Andrew’s image as a “self-involved buffoon” who failed to deny or credibly refute evidence linking him to Virginia Giuffre.

  • Andrew Lowney: “He said in the interview he'd never met her, he had no memory of her. And yet we have email correspondence...and evidence of PR firms to try and discredit Virginia Giuffre.” (24:20)

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7. Fallout: Andrew’s Royal Status and Legal Exposure

Timestamps: 25:12–31:19

• The royal family distanced itself from Andrew publicly, but support from the Queen (e.g., escorting him to Prince Philip’s memorial, bestowing honors) sent a mixed message.

  • Andrew Lowney: “The Queen still stood by him...She made him a vice admiral. He didn't lose his dukedom.” (25:26)

• Andrew has employed every available legal maneuver to avoid cooperation with investigations and lawsuits, behavior inconsistent with innocence.

  • Andrew Lowney: “He actually tried to dodge the summons being sent to him by Virginia Giuffre...These aren't the marks of an innocent man.” (26:42)

• There may be more unexplored legal exposure for Andrew, particularly regarding his time as a trade envoy and his private enrichment.

  • Andrew Lowney: “He was meant to head various trade delegations...But he set up a separate company, Picture Palace Global, which was siphoning off money from these events to his own private bank account.” (29:03)

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8. Legacy, Cover-up, & The Future

Timestamps: 31:19–40:41

• Lowney positions Andrew as an “aberration” in comparison to more dutiful royals, emphasizing that Andrew and Fergie damage the institution’s legitimacy.

  • Andrew Lowney: “He and his wife. You know, this is why I'm calling them out because they undermine the good work that all the others do.” (31:19)

• Within the royal family: Charles’s relationship with Andrew is “complex but protective”; William and Kate strongly disapprove and will likely enact tougher measures against Andrew if William becomes king.

  • Andrew Lowney: “William, I think, doesn't like Andrew...He's a snob, thinks [Kate]'s a bit middle class...If [William] becomes king very soon, I think Andrew is complete toast. He will lose, I suspect, his dukedom.” (34:10)

• Virginia Giuffre’s (Virginia Roberts) recent death further insulates Andrew from legal jeopardy but leaves questions unanswered; her testimony and statements are now the only lasting record.

  • Andrew Lowney: “Now, I wouldn't say he's got blood on his hands, but...part of [her trauma] is because of what she went through with Andrew.” (35:59)

• The scope of the cover-up extends to both U.S. and UK institutions; attempts to more thoroughly investigate Andrew, particularly during his trade envoy years, have been stonewalled.

  • Andrew Lowney: “People were told not to talk to me when I was investigating my book, including by the Foreign Office...there is an establishment cover up here to protect Andrew.” (39:05)

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9. Broader Cultural Takeaways

Timestamps: 38:14–41:37

• In both the U.S. and U.K., the Epstein saga is seen as emblematic of how the ultra-wealthy exploit privilege for impunity; in America, it has become the “Manson story” of the 21st century, continually generating public outrage and fascination.

  • Vanessa Grigoriadis: “It's just continuing to go on and on. We're going to be living with it, I think, for at least 20 years.” (38:23)

• In the U.K., the story revolves around institutional accountability and “establishment cover-up,” with Andrew as the prime emblem of royal impunity.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Vanessa Grigoriadis, on the enduring nature of the story:
  “This is a continuing story and maybe...till the day we die.” (01:36)

• Andrew Lowney, on Andrew and Fergie’s motivations:
  “They're greedy and they wanted to live a sort of jet set life. The people that they mix with, the Elton Johns and the others, all have private jets and they like to live that life.” (12:01)

• Andrew Lowney, on Ghislaine Maxwell:
  “She became his sort of major domo. She did all the work for him, you know, his executive assistant. So it was a good system, and it was a good system to draw Andrew in because clearly Andrew gave him this respectability in contacts.” (18:57)

• Andrew Lowney, on the nature of Epstein’s social network:
  “Everything is transactional. Everything is a commodity.” (20:15)

• Andrew Lowney, on the “self-involved buffoonery” of Andrew’s media response:
  “I think it's pretty clear in my book that, you know, this is a genuine photo. That's a complete red herring. I mean, they're really clasping at straws.” (24:20)

• Andrew Lowney, on the stonewalling of investigations:
  “...Nothing happened because, of course, no one is going to investigate the second son of the Queen. But, you know, in my view is no one is above the law.” (29:03)

• Andrew Lowney, on the U.K.’s institutional protection of Andrew:
  “People were told not to talk to me when I was investigating my book, including by the Foreign Office. So...there is an establishment cover up here to protect Andrew.” (39:05)

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Essential Timestamps

• 01:36 – Epstein Files blocked by Trump
• 02:22 – UK Ambassador Mandelson fired over Epstein ties
• 04:17 – Revelations in Bloomberg’s cache of emails
• 07:45 – How Andrew likely met Epstein through Sarah Ferguson
• 13:32 – Andrew’s intelligence/political network and parallels to Robert Maxwell
• 21:14 – Lowney asserts Andrew must have known about underage exploitation
• 25:26 – Mixed messages from the royal family following Andrew’s scandal
• 29:03 – Exploiting trade envoy position and corporate corruption
• 34:10 – Charles’s protection and William’s disdain
• 35:59 – Virginia Giuffre’s death and its implications
• 39:05 – State and institutional cover-ups
• 40:41 – The book recommendation and episode wrap

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Conclusion

This episode exposes the depth of Prince Andrew’s involvement with Jeffrey Epstein, the cover-ups that protected him, and the cultural reckoning still unfolding around these powerful, insulated elites. Andrew Lowney provides critical context and insight, emphasizing not just individual guilt but systemic failure. The episode closes with a call to continued scrutiny, as the full truth—hidden in unreleased files and silenced witnesses—remains out of reach, fueling ongoing public fascination and outrage.

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Transcript

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

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[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Welcome back to Infamous. This week a Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment production. I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis.

[Natalie Rebomed]

And I'm Natalie Rebomed.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

And this is our final episode on Jeffrey Epstein and his secrets.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I do have to say this.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Is probably not the last time that people are going to think about Jeffrey Epstein in the world because we know this is a continuing story and maybe.

[Interviewer/Host]

Till the day we die.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

But for now, we just wanted to wrap up a bunch of the news that's been breaking with it. And we are going to talk a lot about Prince Andrew in this episode as well. But one thing that has been happening, and I think everybody knows this, is people in Congress are trying to release the Epstein files, which is everything related to Jeffrey Epstein that the FBI knows about, which we think could be a lot. And President Trump has stopped that process probably because there's something in there that he doesn't want people to see. That's the general thought of why he's.

[Interviewer/Host]

Been so aggro about it. But you know, there has been some.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Fallout like what's been going on.

[Interviewer/Host]

Natalie Absolutely.

[Natalie Rebomed]

So Keir Starmer, the UK prime minister, actually fired the British ambassador to the US Peter Mandelson, over his relationship to Epstein. I mean, Mandelson was in the birthday book writing that Jeffrey was his best pal. And there's all these sorts of emails from Mandelson to Epstein suggesting that Epstein's 2008 conviction for soliciting a child for prostitution was wrongful. And that it should be challenged. And so that obviously caused a big uproar in the UK and Mandelson has been fired.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Right. I mean, I would say that the other thing that's been happening is that Bloomberg has somehow got their hands on 18,000 of Jeffrey Epstein's old emails. I don't know how they got these, but somebody wanted them out there. And there have been really a few pretty interesting things in there.

[Natalie Rebomed]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in those emails, you know, we get to see Epstein kind of engaging crisis PR people. And there's this really fascinating document from back in 2008 from this PR communication strategy group that's filled with good words and bad words.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, my God, what does that even mean?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Good words and bad?

[Interviewer/Host]

Like when he goes to do an.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Interview, these are the words he's supposed to keep in his mouth.

[Natalie Rebomed]

Exactly. And these, you know, these good words are things like smart, brilliant, unique, hard working, respectful of legal process, from a poor slash working class background. And then the bad words, of course, are lied, rich, pervert, sex terms, sex toys, playboy, and misogynist, among others. So those were the words that they wanted to avoid.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I see.

[Natalie Rebomed]

But I mean, it really, like, speaks this idea that Epstein was really trying to craft his image and redeem himself in the public eye.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Yeah. And he doesn't actually end up giving a bunch of interviews. Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

But you see in the emails that.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

He'S telling other people what to say on his behalf. You know, there's some emails of him with Alan Dershowitz, his lawyer at that time, saying, you know, don't just say, I was merely good, say I was great. You know, things like that, but there's a hell of a lot about Ghislaine in here. Not only is he asking her, like, you know, what do you think would be the best thing? I would plead to, but you can see that she's running this spreadsheet with different gifts that they're giving out to different people that are in their social circle. You know, she wants to give a $35,000 watch to an aide of Bill Clinton. A $71,000 Lexus car for Alan Dershowitz, which he says was, you know, part of his payment or something like that. There's lingerie and chocolates going to some of the women who had lodged different sexual abuse complaints against him. There's a link to what he was purchasing on Amazon. So things like a teeth whitener, a leather bullwhip, a pair of size 12 crocs, an FBI agent costume, schoolgirl uniforms. I mean, it's really just totally twisted, really weird stuff.

[Interviewer/Host]

And then you know what?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I was really shocked. And I mean, not shocked. I should not at all be shocked by this, but it's sort of hard to see it in black and white. What I was interested in here is there are emails between Epstein and some women who are above age would seem like maybe they're from Eastern Europe and they're going to different colleges around New York and they're meeting different women who they are then asking, do you want to make some money giving a rich guy a massage? And, you know, a picture gets taken, apparently, and said to Jeffrey Epstein, and he's constantly commenting like, oh, I don't like that one, don't like the look of that one. He doesn't like Asian girls, apparently. So it really feels like he had a ton of people around him who were essentially pimping on his behalf. Yeah, Helping, quote, unquote, him get these, these girls for this wonderful opportunity of giving him a massage.

[Natalie Rebomed]

One of the other most notable things that have happened is that a bunch of women who have accused Epstein spoke out publicly in D.C. and said that they are planning to put together a list of known Epstein associates and that they are going to compile the names of people who are regularly in Epstein's world. I mean, that was at this point a couple weeks ago now and it hasn't come out yet, so not sure if it will. I mean, there's obviously a big legal risk there and risk of potential defamation accusations against them. So, you know, we'll, we'll see what happens there. But one man who already has been quite destroyed by this pretty publicly is Prince Andrew, the British Royal. Vanessa is going to be talking a lot about Prince Andrew right now, but with a man who's covered him extensively, that is Andrew Lowney. And so we'll get to that now. And we're starting with the most basic question first. How did Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein meet?

[Interviewer/Host]

You say that you think perhaps they met in the US and they hadn't met at college. Tell me about how they met, to your mind.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I'm not entirely sure. I mean, according to one of my sources who's a great friend of Ghislaine, they met in the 1980s and then Fergie met Ghislaine, you know, through Andrew. But clearly Ghislaine's version, and the one that makes more sense to me is that Fergie and Ghislaine were moving in social circles in New York in the 1990s, and it was Fergie, who introduced Andrew to Epstein. And that makes more sense to me. I mean, we've got to remember that Sarah actually has more numbers in Epstein's black book than Andrew does. I mean, she was traveling on the plane possibly before him. So in some ways, everyone's focused on Epstein and Andrew, but they should really be looking at Sarah's relationship with Epstein.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so Sarah tell us to remind people who her family was and what she was known for from the Ocean Spray and the Weight Watchers and just her whole background.

[Andrew Lowney]

Yeah, well, Sarah's background, she's slightly older than Andrew. Her father was Prince Charles's polo manager. There's a picture in the book of her as a young girl at a polo match with Andrew. But they kind of moved apart. And they were brought together in 1985 by Princess Diana, who was a friend of Fergie's. And Fergie was on the rebound from a relationship with a not much older man who didn't want to marry her. Andrew had not been allowed to marry Koo Stark, an actress who was deemed to be unsuitable. And so they got married in 1986. They were sort of drawn together by this very juvenile sense of humor, their physical attraction. She clearly, I think, was drawn by the fact that he was a royal. The marriage didn't last very long. I mean, they separated after six years. They divorced after 10 years. And at that point, she felt that she had to go and make her own living, even though actually she had a reasonably generous divorce settlement. And she began to promote Ocean Spray, as you say. She became a spokesperson for Weight Watchers and then for Wedgwood. She basically was available to sell herself to the highest bidder. And this concerned the royal family because this was monetizing her royal position, the fact that she was still a duchess. And it kind of lowered the dignity of the monarchy. And so in some ways, she was an early prototype of Meghan Markle. She just did it with a bit more charm and success. So that's her background. And there she is 30 years after their divorce, and she's still living with him because, of course, this is her calling card. And she has reinvented herself. She's very popular in the States because she's seen as a great survivor who picks herself up. She's seen as a victim of the British establishment. But frankly, all the problems she's had, she's brought upon herself. And she's been pretty shameless in exploiting her royal connections to make money.

[Interviewer/Host]

Personally, I did think of Meghan Markle Quite a few times when I was reading about her in the book. But why must she continue to be so close with Andrew? Because he is the source of the royal money. I thought he was sort of cut out of that. But he still has wonderful homes that he's allowed to live in. What's the whole financial situation?

[Andrew Lowney]

The reason that she stays with him is, you know, if she was Ms. Sarah Ferguson, no one would pay her anything to do anything. But while she's Duchess of York and she's living in Royal Lodge, she still has the fairy dust and that's what she's selling. In terms of the money, you know, he has plenty of money. I mean, he inherited money under trust funds. He's made a lot of money over the years from his position as a trade envoy and he's continued to do business in places like China and the Middle east and elsewhere. So I think this is a myth that he has no money. She has large sums of money coming in. She's got flats in London that are rented out for large sums of money. He pays only a peppercorn rent for Royal lodge, something like $300 a week. So I don't think we should feel too sorry for them. And of course they get lots of freebies. They get given the use of clothes, which they keep. They get cars, they get upgraded when they travel. So they're not on the poverty line, I should say.

[Interviewer/Host]

I guess my question is, did they need to do all of these commercial ventures or could they have just had a perfectly fine life Being the Duke and Duchess of York, they could easily.

[Andrew Lowney]

Had a very easy life. The fact is they're greedy and they wanted to live a sort of jet set life. The people that they mix with, the Elton Johns and the others, all have private jets and they like to live that life. They want to have expensive cars, expensive watches, to be able to entertain very lavishly, to employ large staffs. And they know that they can make this money, that they're protected. No one is really going to provide any sort of scrutiny. So they've got away with it for 30 years, just basically shamelessly monetizing their position in the royal family.

[Interviewer/Host]

And it's somewhat like Meghan Markle in that way where you do feel that she and Harry wanted to bestride the world like Oprah and Brad Pitt. And they wanted to be larger than life global figures that live on a bigger stage. Right.

[Andrew Lowney]

There are very, you know, a lot of similarities. I mean, here is actually a rather weak. Two weak men with much stronger, more ambitious wives. Hoping to sort of be half in, half out of the Royal family, who had the security and structure of the armed forces. And then once they left that they kind of went wild. And as you say, they want to live with these showbiz people. That's the sort of people that they like mixing with. Whereas other members of Royal family tended to mix with, you know, people they've been to school with or other aristocrats. These people want to live a slightly different life, both of them, Harry and Andrew.

[Interviewer/Host]

So leaving aside some of the more complicated stuff that happened with Jeffrey Epstein, I'm curious if you think that Andrew had military connections with intelligence around the world, with politicians who were actually interested in his insights into what was going.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

On in the uk.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do we think that indeed he had those connections much in the way people say Robert Maxwell may have?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I think if you're in the Royal family, you can invite anyone you want to lunch or dinner. So if you're interested in particular subjects. And Andrew has an interest in intelligence and spies and things, and he briefly served as a pilot for Special Forces, but he tried to actually wanted to join the intelligence services. But yeah, he was as a special trade envoy, he was doing arms deals. He would be briefed and so he would have picked up information from people that could be useful elsewhere. Who knows what he learned just in terms of the networks which he was operating. And certainly there's a lot of Kompromat on him. This could be used to blackmail him.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what about Robert Maxwell? What was his connection with intelligence?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, Robert Maxwell, a bit like Epstein. I don't think he was a signed up member, but he traded in information. And Maxwell had picked up intelligence connections after the war, just through his various companies doing business with Russia. So he had connections with British intelligence and with Mossad and probably with the CIA. He was the guy basically who set up Epstein, financed him. This is the money that basically disappeared at the time of his death. This was money he transferred to Epstein, who kind of hid it. I mean, Epstein's big skill was hiding money from people, and Epstein would have hidden this money. And then when Ghislaine came across to the States, you know, they began to do things with it.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so how come she says, oh, my father didn't know him in the recent DOJ tape?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, you can't believe everything that Ghislaine Maxwell says. I mean, she's been proven liar at her trial. And I think people are pretty appalled that she was able to give that interview. And she may be often pardon she gave people the information that she thought they wanted to hear. So of course Trump is a wonderful man who's never been ever disrespectful to women. Of course Andrew has nothing to worry about. I think we have to just take that interview, which of course was this Trump's own private lawyer with a great pinch of salt. But I do think bits of it are true. It ring true. And this, for example, Fergie introduced Andrew Trapstein does ring true to me.

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[Interviewer/Host]

What about Epstein? Was he moving money To Glenn, this $30 million for any reason that wasn't just paying her off for her silence, figuring she was essentially one of the closest people to him at that time? Maybe he wanted to help her because she didn't have any money at that point from her family. Why was that money moved over to her?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, in some ways it was her money, it was her father's money being passed to Epstein, being just being passed back to Ghislaine. You know, she then proved to him very useful. She, a bit like Andrew, gave him status, respectability, useful contacts, socially, certainly. You know, she then was a very effective procurer for him because she was well educated, well spoken, a female, and these young girls trusted her. She became his sort of major domo. She did all the work for him, you know, his executive assistant. So it was a good system, and it was a good system to draw Andrew in because clearly Andrew gave him this respectability in contacts. I mean, Andrew admitted also that Epstein gave him good contacts. Epstein was taken on some of these trade trips and Andrew helped facilitate trade deals for him that he was doing. And these two men, you know, were sex addicts. They had to have this constant sexual gratification. They were joined by this joint interest in money and sexual.

[Interviewer/Host]

So the relationship with Ghislaine and Epstein, she saw him maybe as a father figure, in a way, he became her protector. But what about Andrew and Epstein? Do you see it just as buddy. Buddy and Galen and Andrew. So what were those two relationships with Andrew?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

How did those play out?

[Andrew Lowney]

You know, everything is transactional. Everything is a commodity. Ghislaine claims that she was in love with Epstein, but I think it's more likely that, as you say, he was her protector. He gave her the standard of living that she'd been used to and wouldn't have had otherwise. So they all were able to network using each other's group of networks, and that made them much, much more effective. But, yeah, I think they're all bisexual. I mean, she joined in some of the sexual practices with Epstein. As I said, they had this extraordinary connection through the love of money and their love of sex.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you believe that Andrew knew, other than what was obviously became public record in Florida through the Palm beach cases, that Andrew knew that Epstein was sleeping with underage Women that he, you know, let's talk like under 17, that he had personal knowledge of any of this?

[Andrew Lowney]

Yes. I mean, I think it's pretty, you know, anyone who went to the houses said it was pretty obvious. Just, I mean, you know, one of the lines is you go to Palm beach and there's a private quarters no one ever went to. And that was a bit, that was a bit shady. And the rest was all very elegant. But the point is, even in the Manhattan townhouse, I mean, you know, there was phallic soaps and pictures of naked girls around. No one could have any possible reason not to believe that this was a highly sexualized environment. There were lots of young girls wandering around.

[Interviewer/Host]

So how was Epstein helping Andrew financially during the post Palm beach period? So post, what is that, 2008?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, he was paying Fergie's debts. The line is that he only paid £15,000. Well, Epstein didn't get out of bed for that sort of sum of money. I mean, the figure I was given was more like 2 million. But, you know, he had Andrew really around his little finger and he could begin to call in favors. You know, Andrew. One of the reasons I understand Andrew went in December 2010 was not to say goodbye, but just to have reassurances that there wasn't compromising material on him that would be used against him. They claimed they were friends, but actually Epstein was playing him.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think that Andrew said to President Trump, these are Jeffrey Epstein's worst habits? This is what I saw on the island. I mean, we have President Trump saying, Andrew's a fun guy, he's not pretentious. Or Andrew can tell you what happened on the island. He says it was a cesspool. Do we think the two of them had a sort of buddy, buddy conversation of, you know, Jeffrey Epstein? This is what he's up to.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I don't know if they discussed Epstein, but I mean, since they were both very close friends with him, it's very likely. But we do know, for example, I got this from an official at the British Consulate in New York, that when Trump and Andrew met, they had sort of locker room conversations, talking about women in pretty vulgar terms, swapping lists of masseurs. So it was a relationship that was not based, shall we say, on. On high minded discussions on trade. It was related on their joint interest in women.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so Andrew gives this now infamous interview to Newsnight. If you haven't seen the documentary or there's a fictionalized TV show about them, they're fascinating. He essentially reveals himself to be a very self involved buffoon who thinks that he can give a TV interview to a real journalist and say there's no possible way I could have had any contact with an underage girl. You know, relating to Jeffrey Epstein. The photo that was taken of me and Virginia and Ghislaine, it could have been a photo retouched. And it's not a real, real photo.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, he said in the interview he'd never met her, he had no memory of her. And yet we have email correspondence when she pops up with Ghislaine Maxwell discussing her and how they're going to deal with her. You know, we have evidence of Ghislaine Epstein and Andrew getting PR firms to try and discredit Virginia Giuffre. And I think it's pretty clear in my book that, you know, this is a genuine photo. That's a complete red herring. I mean, they're really clasping at straws. That's what they're using to dispute this. So, I mean, the evidence is incontrovertible that they all knew each other and they were active. And if you just need to look at the flight logs, I mean, no one could construct such an elaborate lie where it all fits together. It's ridiculous to say that this is all fake. I mean, these people are just, they're being paid to defend Andrew.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so since that time, since that interview, what has happened to Andrew? You know, we hear, of course, that the Queen was furious about the interview, but what steps were taken within the family and without.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I mean, he did stand down from royal duties, but, you know, the Queen still stood by him. You know, she showed her support by so escorting him to her seat. For example, the service for Prince Philip's memorial, you know, she kept giving him honors, she made him a vice admiral. He didn't lose his dukedom. So it's a slightly mixed message that was sent out, but they could see the optics didn't look good. I mean, the fact is that people didn't want him to represent them. So in fact, it was a group of all these military associations, those came from the military association saying, we don't want to be connected. The charities actually resigned from his having him as a patron. The line is the Royal family stepped in and dealt with the situation. They didn't. Everyone else stepped in and dealt with it. And they were kind of left slightly sort of trying to do the best they could and distancing themselves from him. But, you know, he's still going to family events there he was up in Balmoral, I think possibly even now with the family. But I think the reason for that and the reason Sarah Ferguson is there is they need to keep them close. They're worried what stories that they can tell the press. You know, would they leak stuff to a tame journalist or writer? And so they need to keep them on side.

[Interviewer/Host]

What would happen if he came to.

[Andrew Lowney]

The U.S. well, I think, you know, that's a good question. Would he be stopped and asked to help the law enforcement? I mean, that was certainly what they were asking and he was refusing to do. But certainly, I think one of the things that doesn't play in his favor is that lawyers were asking for him to come forward as a material witness to help them in their case. The attorney, Geoffrey Berman in New York, was asking him to assist in the inquiries. He actually tried to dodge the summons being sent to him by Virginia Jeffrey. He tried to play on complicated legal arguments to try and kick out her legal claim. These aren't the marks of an innocent man. This is a man using every device possible to try and get himself off.

[Interviewer/Host]

The incident with Virginia that is documented is the one with the photograph, which.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Obviously wasn't on U.S. soil.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you believe that Virginia has other allegations in the U.S. is there anything that you believe could become a criminal case in the United States for him?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, it'd be interesting to know if material comes out with the Epstein files, if some of the victims begin to name names, something might emerge at that point. But certainly there was, I think, a strong case for him to be investigated in Britain for a woman being trafficked to him. Because I think we've got to remember this. You know, he kind of ordered her out of a catalog.

[Interviewer/Host]

We're talking about Virginia, obviously.

[Andrew Lowney]

Yes, Virginia was ordered. But, you know, there were pictures of girls, and, you know, the men would look at them and say, I like the look of her. Can you provide her? So I think there is. There is an argument certainly for Britain. But, you know, I think it's early days. I think it's gonna be quite difficult to get people to come forward and talk. And certainly I was talking to one of the victims today, and, you know, she doesn't want to go back over this. She's got a young daughter. You know, she wants to move on with her life, and she doesn't want to rack it all up. So I think that's what's going to save him. But, you know, certainly I think there is a strong case for his time as special representative where he abused his position as a Public official for private financial gain.

[Interviewer/Host]

Tell us more about that, because I feel we went through that too quickly.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Tell me exactly what you located about that.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I think it's actually a big part of the book, but from 2001 to 2011, he was appointed a Special Representation Representative for Trade and Investment and his job was to promote British trade abroad. The belief was that a member of the Royal family could reach places, particularly rulers in the Middle east, that politicians, for example, couldn't reach. And he was meant to head various trade delegations to promote various British industries, not to promote British trade, but to promote his own private business interests. And this is again what happened with Pitch at the Palace. This was meant to be a charity, for it was held at places like Buckingham palace to bring entrepreneurs and investors together. But he set up a separate company, Picture Palace Global, which was siphoning off money from these events to his own private bank account. And then he was involved, for example, with a man who's alleged to be a Chinese spy, who was his point man in China, who was pushing, basically franchising the business out around the world. So there were lots of things going on that I think, you know, need to be investigated. And people were calling MPs 20 years ago for the National Crime Agency here to investigate him, and nothing happened because, of course, no one is going to investigate the second son of the Queen. But, you know, in my view is no one is above the law. And this role was one he had as a taxpayer funded civil servant. He was there partly as a member of the Royal family, but partly as a trade envoy. And therefore those files should be made available in the National Archives and we should have some scrutiny of who he was taking, who he was seeing, what he was doing.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's kind of unbelievable, the amount that you document in your book in terms of how far astray he has gone from being part of a family that is supposed to be serving the populace of Britain. And even if they're just figureheads, even if it's just all for fun and tradition and this is the life he was born into. And I guess you could say as the second son of the Queen, you know, he'll never be the King, so it gives you a complex. But this seems like this has gone very, very astray from what the intention was.

[Andrew Lowney]

Yeah, his brother and sister are also not going to be King and Queen, but they've managed to find a role for themselves, supporting the monarch, doing good works, as you say, basically following public duties. And they're not enriching themselves on the back of them. So I think, you know, he's in aberration, really. He and his wife. You know, this is why I'm calling them out because they undermine the good work that all the others do where they do put public their public duties ahead of their private interests.

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[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Interviewer/Host]

So what do Charles and William and Kate think of him? And what is that relationship at this point?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, the relationship with Charles is A complex one. I think there's a certain amount of jealousy between them. Charles has had his life preordained. It's not maybe the life he would have wanted. His brother, who was able, for example, to pursue a naval career, has gone under the radar and been able to have a slightly more private life. But, you know, Charles is aware as the king of the reputational damage that Andrew's done and he needs to deal with that. But he's a kind hearted person. I think this is his younger brother. He's quite protective of him and therefore I don't think he's been as tough as he should be. Whereas William, I think, doesn't like Andrew. I mean, he stands for all the things that William doesn't stand for. William and Kate are doing their public duties and haven't really put a foot wrong. And so they hate the fact that Andrew is undermining all their good work. He's distracting the message that they're trying to put out about this modern monarchy. It just seems like this corrupt 18th century monarchy. And you know, we know Andrew has been rude about Kate. He's a snob, thinks she's a bit middle class and you know, William is very protective as his wife and so there's no love lost there. William, I'm sure when he becomes king, whenever that happens, will be very tough with Andrew, depending when that happens. If he becomes king very soon, I think Andrew is complete toast. He will lose, I suspect, his dukedom. He will be relegated and told to basically go and live in exile abroad. But if he doesn't come to the throne for, let's say another five or six, seven, eight years, then Andrew may just quietly drift away and everyone will sort of forget about him and maybe the problem will go away.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so how do you think that Virginia's recent death changes the legacy for Andrew?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, I think her death is very sad. It's changed, you know, the sympathies. Now, I wouldn't say he's got blood in his hands, but to a certain extent here was this, you know, very traumatized woman who, you know, couldn't cope with life and part of that is because of what she went through with Andrew. You know, we're never now going to be able to quiz her to get more information from her. So all we've got is her book and her statements to date. So it's slightly inconclusive in the way that Jeffrey Epstein's death was convenient for a lot of people because clearly this is a major player and they're no longer able there to give their version of events.

[Interviewer/Host]

How is this all going to play out? I know you don't have a crystal ball, but we have heard this week some victims say, well, we can make an Epstein client list for you because we know who the Epstein clients are. There's obviously a lot of defamation risk in doing something like that, and we haven't really heard much. Right. There's still the question of if Epstein was videotaping Andrew, where's the videotape? We haven't seen as much audio, visual evidence as one would think. How do you see this all playing out?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, the audio material, the videos were collected by the FBI in 2006.

[Interviewer/Host]

You think those just haven't leaked with the FBI?

[Andrew Lowney]

I mean, a lot of stuff hasn't leaked. So, you know, it's only if the FBI want to release this stuff. But, you know, at the moment, maybe it suits their purposes to threaten to leak it rather than to leak it, because what you achieve once you leak it, you know, you lose your control over him. But, you know, something I think may well emerge. I mean, we've got Crace calling for Andrew to be put in handcuffs. She's talking about. Now, this must be. This came from her discussions with some of the victims. So, you know, we may get more calls for investigations now. And, you know, there are First Amendment rights. So I think in the states, things could be said. Things could be said on the floor of the House that wouldn't lead to defamation claims. So, you know, he must be worried, as indeed, there must be other figures who are worried that, you know, their involvement with Epstein is going to emerge. So I think this. This is a story that has still a long way to run, I think.

[Interviewer/Host]

How is it different on that side of the pond? Because here in the U.S. obviously, this story is almost like the Manson story.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host]

It's just continuing to go on and on. We're going to be living with it, I think, for at least 20 years. I agree with you. And in the short term, it has a lot longer to run from a news perspective. But I'm curious how you perceive it, because here it's been really taken up as evidence that the very, very wealthy have a lot more secrets and are a lot more loose and a lot more amoral than any of us know. That's really the point of the story, I think, that is resonating with people. What about for you over there?

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, you're right. I mean, you know, it's about draining the swamp and the sense of entitled, rich Powerful people being able to shape the narrative and being able to lead these, as you say, pretty loose lives and get away with it and establishment cover ups. And to some extent it's the same in Britain. I mean it's about establishment cover up. But we're focused clearly on Prince Andrew. He is the figure. I mean clearly there are many more American figures who've been named in the story, but I think Andrew is the only British figure. And of course the victims are principally American. I mean there's some like Anoushka Giorgio who are British but most of them are American. So our focus is on Andrew. But it's the same principle, the idea that there has been this huge cover up and justice has been denied to these victims and it just is really reminded people that we don't know our history and people can behave if they're rich and powerful exactly as they wish and get away with it. But I mean we've not got, I mean the COVID up I suppose is the American government's cover up. There's not a cover up by the British here. But there is to a certain extent because you know, people have tried to get people to investigate. The Metropolitan Police won't look at it. You know, the fact is I haven't got access to Andrew's files for that 10 year period which should be released. People were told not to talk to me when I was investigating my book, including by the Foreign Office. So I mean there is an establishment cover up here to protect Andrew.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, we shall see how it all plays out. Please, everybody get Andrew Lowney's book. It's called entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York. I've got a copy of it right here. I read it over the last, I would say say three days. I am telling you it goes very fast and you will be shocked at the life that Andrew and Sarah Ferguson Fergie have lived. I think if you're, I don't know, under probably about 50 years old, you probably missed a lot of this because it was reported in drips and drabs on both sides of the pond. But Andrew has really brought together the previous reporting, the new reporting and just woven it all into this scheme that is fascinating. Kind of stranger than fiction in some ways. So thank you so much Anthony for coming on our show.

[Andrew Lowney]

Well, thank you so much.

[Natalie Rebomed]

That's it for Infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review until you, your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Natrobe. That's N a T r O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book, Blurred Lines. Rethinking Sex, Power and Consent on Campus. See you next week.

[Andrew Lowney]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Andrew Lowney]

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[Jonathan Van Ness]

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