Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (2:47)

So the big thing that's been happening in pop culture other than the Mormons taking over is Gen Z Podcasts. It's the new hot special media product that everybody who's investing is excited about. And I would wager that nobody has been more successful than Alex Cooper of call her daddy or gotten more famous. But now perhaps also infamous. There's been a contretemps with Alex Earle, who was formerly on Alex Cooper's Unwell network, who's another hot blonde podcaster, vlogger, dominant multi platform personality. And that has spun out online as a story that may be quite damaging to Alex Cooper. Because part of what Alex Cooper needs to be in order to book all of these celebrities that she has on, like Gwyneth Paltrow, who talks about how good Brad Pitt was in bed, who

Alex Cooper (3:50)

was better in bed.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (3:51)

That is really hard because, like, Brad was like the sort of major chemistry love of your life kind of like at the time, you know, and then like Ben was like technically excellent.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (4:09)

Or Hailey Bieber, who finally talks about Selena Gomez. Part of what she really has to be is a girl's girl. And if she's having snarky fights with other hot blonde podcastresses, that doesn't really work. But I would also argue where Alice Cooper seems to be really vulnerable is actually the breaking news that's been happening about her husband. They're a power couple duo and he seems to run a lot of her business. And he's acting allegedly quite unwell around her staffers, yelling, demeaning people. He hasn't responded to any of that yet. But there's really big questions here because she has a massive influence on Gen Z and a massive media empire that is just growing by the day. So we thought that we should have on Ashley Carmen, a reporter at Bloomberg who has broken a lot of this news and who is really the best person to speak to what Alex Cooper means in culture and where she seems to be going from here. So welcome, Ashley.

Ashley Carmen (5:20)

Thank you for having me.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (5:21)

Thank you for coming on. So what do you think about what I said before? Is Alex Cooper sort of a girl's girl?

Ashley Carmen (5:29)

So she has really been a vocal advocate for women's issues as well as just hearing from other women and talking to women about things that women maybe at the time that she started call her daddy, perhaps weren't talking about as openly. I'm thinking about more like sex and dating. But there has been kind of this history of some friction between her and her collaborators. My reporting has really centered on what's going on inside Unwell as a company. And you mentioned her husband, her Husband Matt Kaplan is the co CEO of Unwell with Alex, so he really does oversee this enterprise.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (6:06)

And so when did they start working together? Because she was well up and running. If they got married in 2024, I don't know when they started dating.

Ashley Carmen (6:15)

Yeah, they started going into business together in 2023. They started basically like an umbrella company called trending that combined Matt's production company that did film and TV with Alex's podcast ambitions. It's called trending. But really at this point, we really think of Unwell as kind of the umbrella company for a lot of what they do. So I just say Unwell, but they do technically have trending.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (6:39)

But you would agree that she's the most popular, highest paid female podcaster in the world, right?

Ashley Carmen (6:44)

Ashley Flowers of Crime Junkie is also incredibly popular. Those two round out the top five podcasters, the rest of whom are men.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (6:53)

Can you explain for anybody who hasn't listened to Call Her Daddy, what is that show like?

Ashley Carmen (6:59)

So nowadays, Call Her Daddy is sort of a celebrity access show. I think she just interviewed Kevin Hart, for example. She's interviewed Gwyneth Paltrow, as you mentioned. She's interviewed a ton of famous people. Chapel Rowan has been on her podcast. All of my friends who have kids are in hell. I don't know anyone. I actually don't know anyone who's like, happy and has children at this age. And it's really just interviews with celebrities, almost Oprah, like, positioning of we're going to talk about, you know, questions that maybe they wouldn't get asked anywhere else, like, how was the sex? So that's what she's really up to now. But prior to that pivot, she was more in the sex and relationships space, really getting candid about sexual techniques. She became kind of known as someone who will dirty talk. Even when Barstool first acquired the show, she, I believe it was, that wrote the blog post. But someone wrote the blog post describing the deal and they called it as locker room talk for women.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (8:02)

Well, yeah, of course, I've listened to some of her show. You know, you want to hear what is this person doing that she became so successful for? And her monologue about, you know, her blowjob technique, which she calls the Gluckluck.

Alex Cooper (8:16)

I will give you the little definition of this Gluck lock. It is a vacuum seal, double hand twist, gawka combo. Any girl can give a blowjob. It is the accessories that you bring with that blowjob that make America great again.

Ashley Carmen (8:36)

I swear to God, I'M not a Trump supporter.

Alex Cooper (8:37)

Fuck me, huh?

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (8:38)

And it sort of walks the line of, is this pornographic or is this my internal fantasy of how good I am at giving a blowjob? Which, you know, some straight women have probably thought this. And it's just a fascinating thing that she was able to move from what is blue comedy work almost to being this generation's Oprah. That's quite a stunning leap.

Ashley Carmen (9:08)

Absolutely. And I don't see any indication that her audience has shrunk or anything in that pivot. If anything, I think it has grown. In my story, I used a third party estimate to figure out how many downloads she gets per month, and I believe it was in the ballpark of around 13 million. So.

Alex Cooper (9:27)

Wow. Okay.

Ashley Carmen (9:28)

Just a really popular podcaster who now also has these reality TV shows that she's producing and many other projects that she's involved in under unwell and is

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (9:37)

on billboards like, you're just driving through downtown Manhattan and there'll be a three story tall billboard of Alex Cooper. Yeah, she's sort of being positioned as the Kylie Jenner who talks. She's like a young woman who's really sexy and really, really wealthy and has it all going on, but actually, you know, wants to disclose. Although I think we can get into. I find some of her later interviews about herself to be quite stage managed and quite risk averse in the way she talks about herself today.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (10:12)

It strikes me that so much of her image is stage managed. And like, yes, she has pulled off this incredible transformation from what call her daddy used to be to what it's become. But she's on a couch, she's nearly always in sweatpants. She creates this vibe of being personable and cozy and she's incredibly friendly and sometimes fawning to guests. And I think that the success of the show a lot of the time now hinges on Alex Cooper's personality.

Ashley Carmen (10:42)

I think people come for her personality. I think though, when you have the celebrity guests, then it becomes a little bit of, are you interested in the guests? And who's gonna stop in for the guest versus for her? But of course, to build an incredibly loyal audience, they're coming for you beyond the guest.

Alex Cooper (11:00)

Right.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (11:00)

And this is her daddy gang. That's what her, her fans are called. Which the beginning of so many episodes begins with like, what's up, daddy gang? Daddy gang. Picture this. That's kind of the, the tone.

Ashley Carmen (11:14)

And she calls herself father.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (11:16)

Yeah. Which is so funny given that she's really is such a mainstream person. Right. She grew up in the suburb of Philadelphia. You know, she often asks for subjects about, like, a core childhood memory. And for her, it's her parents saying, come inside while playing manhunt or capture the flag. Her mom was a school therapist. Her dad was a broadcast producer for the NHL. And I mean, she's spoken about her parents and her parents getting old in a way that I personally find very, very moving. You know, which really shows she. She has a close, very loving relationship with them.

Alex Cooper (11:50)

Back when you were a kid traveling with your parents, obviously, your brain could probably just go onto autopilot, right? Like, maybe your dad had the boarding passes. Your mom had all of the snacks planned. It was just you and your Harry Potter book against the world, and you didn't have to worry about a God dam. You could literally go through the airport blindfolded. And like, you wouldn't. You would get there. You would get there. You don't even know how you got there, but you got there because your parents led you there. But now maybe you get to the airport and your dad can't understand how the self service baggage tagging ticket situation works, right? So then you end up taking over. It's all right, dad.

Ashley Carmen (12:30)

I got this one.

Alex Cooper (12:31)

And then your mom can't figure out how to download the airplane app on her phone, so you're like, no, no, no, I got it. Don't worry, mom. Like, we got it. And then maybe you land, right? You're in a new city, and the process of finding the Uber pickup location is basically impossible for them. So then you're like, don't worry, guys. I will lead you to the promised land. I got this. In certain settings, our parents, they just fully rely on us, and it's not the other way around anymore.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (12:58)

So then she, in college, is on this Boston University Division 1 soccer scholarship, and she gets, I guess, sexually harassed by the female team coach. Did you watch her doc?

Ashley Carmen (13:13)

Yes. I actually went to the premiere of the documentary at Tribeca last year. It was crowded. There were a lot of fans. I got there early enough where I believe she was on, you know, the little mini red carpet that they have. And so people were taking tons of photos. I mean, people were excited. The documentary got into allegations. Yes. That her coach sexually harassed her. That was definitely kind of the bombshell that was dropped,

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (13:53)

What they did to your family. You're lucky to make it out alive.

Ashley Carmen (13:57)

Streaming on Peacock. These men are going to come after me. Takings about 6.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (14:02)

My only chance.

Narrator/Announcer (14:03)

Put a bullet in her head from the co creator of Ozark.

Ashley Carmen (14:07)

Looks like a family was running drugs. Execution style killing.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (14:10)

It's rare for the keys.

Ashley Carmen (14:11)

Any leads on who they might have been running for? The cartel killed my family. I'm gonna kill them. All of them.

Narrator/Announcer (14:18)

MIA Streaming now only on Peacock.

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Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (14:58)

As everyone knows, we like to cover the entertainment business on this show because what happens in the boardroom often affects what you see on your screens. The big ones and the little ones. And in terms of call her daddy, the origin story is quite fraught. Before it was a one woman show, before Alex Cooper was its sole father, and of course the name of the show is a wink at the sexualized use of the term daddy. There was another founding father, a woman named Sophia Franklin. She's got big doe eyes and dark brown hair. The brunette counterpoint to Alex's sassy blonde. And in many ways, Alex's relationship with Sophia is fundamental to understanding how she got where she is now.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (15:42)

Sophia Franklin says that she was, she was one day in an Uber pool, you know, because she was trying to save money on Ubers. She was just a young woman in New York working at an investment company. And Alex Cooper, I believe got into the Uber pool. But Alex Cooper has said she went on Facebook to find roommates because she was also a young woman in New York. This is after she's graduated. She's working at a local magazine in New York in sales, she's dating some athletes, et cetera. You know, she says like she had a great lifestyle with her boyfriend who was a well known methods pitcher. But once they broke up, she needed a roommate and the two of them end up moving in together, Right? And I guess they just start this podcast because they're already making vlogs or Alex is and they think, why not? It'll be fun. We have chemistry. Let's do it. Pretty immediately Dave Portnoy sees them. Can you tell us, Ashley, about Dave Portnoy and like his role in the media at that point?

Ashley Carmen (16:42)

Yes. Dave Portnoy started Barstool Sports.

Commercial Voice (16:46)

Barstool's around 20 years. I think a lot of times, even though people know us now, they still are kind of flabbergasted when you go under the hood and see our influence.

Ashley Carmen (16:55)

He is a content maker himself. Host. Podcasts is very prominent nowadays on TikTok and such. Spotted this show, quickly moved to acquire it put Alex and Sophia on, you know, an employee salary like they're employees of Barstool. And at the same time that this was all sort of happening, you have the rise of podcasts. And so at some point, podcasting became a really significant portion of Barstool's revenue. And Call Her Daddy represented a significant portion of that significant portion. And so it became a really important show. And this is when there has been some reporting about how Alex and Sophia believed they should be compensated. And Sophia reportedly left because she wanted to make more money and thought they shouldn't be compensated as employees, but more as individual contractors. Alex Cooper ended up staying on and then seemingly negotiated her way to be able to own the show eventually, and she took it out to Spotify for a reported $60 million deal when they were doing a bunch of licensing and acquisitions in the podcast space.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (18:03)

Dave Portnoy is basically, I don't even know how to characterize him. He was one of the first people who figured out, if you have me two allegations against you, maybe you should just say, like, I deny everything. And indeed, this is a conspiracy that's against Business Insider wrote about him. And so he decided to, like, engrave three champagne bottles with the names of his enemies there at that publication. And, you know, he's going to pop the champagne bottles whenever he can declare victory. He's really out there and really, really aggressive. So what I think is so interesting about this story with Sophia Franklin and how their original podcast, the Call Her Daddy original podcast with the two of them broke down is you got to imagine he's a very, very hard negotiator. And they're essentially saying, you're not paying us enough money. And we want to walk away with our IP with our working podcast. And he's like, I paid for this. I own this. What's so interesting about some of the way the story has been reported is initially it seemed like it was Sophia was sort of the bad one because she was the one who supposedly had this boyfriend who was also a media executive, and he was sort of pushing her to say she's not being paid enough, and thereby Dave Portnoy should pony up a bunch of money plus the IP and let the two of them walk away. And Alex Cooper was the one who was being sort of rational and saying, look, you don't need to give us that much money. Just please, I would like to have my show. Right. But over time, that feels like that's gotten clouded. And you have Sophia even coming out now saying that she's written a book that is called what, Daddy Issues.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (20:04)

It's called Daddy Issues, Daddy. That's her.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (20:08)

Yeah, that's her.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (20:08)

Sophia with an F. I have to

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (20:10)

say, sorry, Sofia, but I've consumed a lot of her media in the last couple of days. What I was getting into this, and Alex Cooper is the talent here, and Sofia was very much on her own. Doesn't stand up in the same way.

Sophia Franklin (20:27)

You guys will ask, like, did Alex Cooper get permission from Sophia to use her in the documentary? Like, that must have been awkward. Did Alex ask Sophia for permission to use the term unwell? Since Sophia coined it, there has been no conversations or asks. I just, per usual and per the norm, I just kind of watch things happen at the exact same time you guys do.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (21:01)

This was where we sort of were disagreeing a little bit, Vanessa, because to me, it feels completely unforgivable what Alex Cooper did to Sophia, per all the reporting that I've read, which is essentially, they reached an impasse in negotiations. Sophia wanted to push for more money. Cooper contacted Dave Portnoy independently to strike a deal. So essentially went around Sophia's back, and the result was that Alex got to keep the call her daddy brand.

Sophia Franklin (21:34)

My platform was taken away from me, which was the podcast, and I'm going up against Barstool Sports, everyone that works for that company.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (21:43)

She worked for Dave Portney for another year, and then she went and signed the big Spotify contract. And Alex Cooper, like, hasn't denied that. I think in this move, we really get to see that she's an incredibly ruthless businesswoman. She would later tell the Hollywood Reporter, related to talking about something else. I'm a motherfucker when it comes to business. I'm going to protect my show and my daddy yang. And when she talks about this decision to work for Barstool for another year in exchange for the ip, she told the Hollywood Reporter, I'm so happy that I trusted myself and fought for this ip. I'll never forget that day Dave Portnoy offered us that IP on a rooftop. And I was so elated being like, I will stay another year. I'll do whatever it takes. On Sophia's side, she was like, I think we could start a show called Girls in the bathroom or whatever and it'll be just as good.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (22:33)

Well, that is true. That is true. They could have started a new show at that time, but I don't think it was probably clear to Alex Cooper. And I will give you that the reporting is that they were on a three year contract with, with Barstool paying each an annual base salary of $75,000 plus an additional $2500 an episode for every 10% of listeners that they pull in above the show's average. And this is like we're talking about Alex Cooper now making like hundreds of millions of dollars off of her and what she, what she did. But Ashley, isn't this normally how this ends up though? I think I made a bad deal. I'd like my show. This happens all, every day.

Ashley Carmen (23:20)

This is a tension that is similar to many that go on to this day. I mean, I think as people are able to go out and start their own programs or newsletters or whatever and have ownership and you see this convergence of traditional media wanting to also get some of distribution that these independent creators have made. Yeah, it just gets tricky because then they're bringing in outside people and the people inside are like, wait, I'm getting paid a salary? Why are these people getting paid potentially millions of dollars? So yes, this is a tension that does exist for quite a lot of organizations and people for many years.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (23:56)

I just want to put a fine point on this. This would be as if I went around Vanessa's back and said, you know what, give me the rights to Infamous and I'll loop Vanessa out of it. It would be absolutely crazy. And you know, Sophia has said to Rolling Stone the betrayal piece was more upsetting than the financial piece. I go to bed resting my head on my pillow, knowing I'm a good person. I have not done shady or up or backhanded to get ahead financially, which I think it's pretty undeniable. Alex Cooper is ahead financially. We've already mentioned that 60 million dollar Spotify deal. And from there she kind of call her daddy, pivots into this Internet show from this kind of boardy female locker room sex talk show, and she kind of becomes a media mogul of sorts. You know, she gets serious, she interviews Kamala Harris, she starts a podcast network.

Ashley Carmen (24:47)

The idea, even now I think this is going on, but especially when Alex is starting to conceive of her potential future and being a media mogul, is that if you had a successful show, why don't you launch other shows on the back of that show? Use the star power from the one show to endorse the other shows. Maybe you even go on the other hosts shows or you put those shows in your feed for a time and basically just, we have this distribution available through our one show, so let's use it to make many more shows. And so that's when you end up with a network.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (25:21)

And then she also, in 2024, moves to Sirius in this $125 million deal and starts doing these live tours, which you mentioned. Can you tell us a little bit about that expansion?

Ashley Carmen (25:35)

So again, it's interesting because you really can track the business of podcasting through Alex Cooper's trajectory. And so in addition to starting a podcast network, she also was thinking about live tours and live events, which, of course, in the music business is a great way to make money. And in podcasting, it seems to also be a really viable way to make some cash. So I did get some data about how her live shows performed. So in 2024, three of her West coast shows grossed about $540,000 with around 9,500 tickets sold. And that isn't inclusive of her entire tour. That's just three shows. So you can get a sense of why podcasters, and Al Cooper in particular, were seeking these live events.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (26:20)

And you also wrote, I mean, last year she held a two day festival in Las Vegas, complete with Chippendales dancers and a pool party with Paris Hilton spinning tunes as a dj.

Ashley Carmen (26:29)

Yeah, Again, similarly to music, this idea of, okay, we know one show is great, but what if we did a festival? And that's kind of what she's moving into. At least that she did for one time.

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Ashley Carmen (27:31)

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Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (27:51)

years after her business disagreement with Sophia Franklin, Alex Cooper appears to have found herself in another business disagreement with a different female podcaster and content creator, Alex Earle.

Ashley Carmen (28:03)

So I'm Alex with an E. And

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (28:05)

I'm Alex with an I.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (28:07)

That's SNL parodying their feud.

Ashley Carmen (28:09)

So she was a hot mess and

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (28:11)

I went on hot mess being unwell,

Ashley Carmen (28:13)

but I felt unwell about unwell being at hot mess. And it can't be unwell because I'm

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (28:17)

entering the wellness space. We're here to talk about literal Chernobyl for white women.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (28:22)

Of course this is all ridiculous, making fun of their different companies and podcast names. But it's getting at what I. I think the crux of the issue is that Alex Earle is in some ways the new Alex Cooper. She's what Alex Cooper used to be, a young, fun party girl who's very charismatic and very likable. And Alex Earl's backstory is actually pretty interesting. She grew up in New Jersey as the daughter of a pretty wealthy construction businessman, Thomas earle. Back in 2008, Alex's family was at the center of a media firestorm when it came out that her dad, Thomas, was having an affair with a woman named Ashley Dupre. Now, if that name sounds familiar, it's because Ashley Dupre was an escort whose clients included Elliot Spitzer, then the governor of New York. It was a huge scandal and Spitzer resigned as governor. In the fallout, Thomas Earl's affair with Ashley was also uncovered. Here's Alex talking about it on Call her dad.

Alix Earle (29:21)

My dad had an affair with someone who was well known for her job, having sexual relations with high class people, and one of them was even the governor of New York. She was very well known from that. And in turn, my dad's affair became a very public situation. I had just felt like my world crashed down in that moment.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (29:50)

Interestingly, Thomas actually went on to marry Ashley Dupre in 2013 and she became Alix Earle's stepmom. And many Years later, in 2020, Alex would become famous herself. Famous enough maybe to become competition for Alex Cooper. So that kind of catches us up to Alex Earle, Alex with an I A L I X, who first came on my radar as a kind of Miami party girl. But who is she to you? Or in the podcasting world?

Ashley Carmen (30:23)

Alix Earle got her start on TikTok. She was the Get Ready with Me videos college student at the time, just showing off her life and people. I think Kind of thought of her as like a bestie, like a best friend. And so Alex Cooper identified her. I wouldn't say particularly early in her trajectory. When she signed Alex Earl on the network, that was a big deal. That was a clear get that people were like, whoa, it's a headline item. And so that was, to my knowledge, the first podcast that Alex Earle was hosting. It was called Hot Mess. So that show launched in September 2023, and then by, I believe it was the beginning of the year. In 2025, a story came out saying that the show had been dropped from the network. And seemingly Alex Earle does have control of that feed now and owns it. She's publishing on it regularly. But Unwell is not in the making of that show anymore.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (31:19)

Right.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (31:19)

She appears to have launched a new show that she's kind of calling Get Real With Me, even though it's still called Hot Mess on. On the feed, she's posting episodes like Get Real With Me, Nikki Glaser.

Ashley Carmen (31:30)

Well, I also just want to find out. This is kind of funny. You know, Nikki Glaser, as you mentioned, was a guest on Alex Earle's show, but she also was a guest on Call Her Daddy. So in an interesting way, depending on how far Alex Earle gets into this podcast space and how much she's doing these interview shows, I mean, they are kind of competing with each other at this point.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (31:48)

They are very similar. I mean, they're working the same sort of super duper hot. I guess Alex Cooper is now like less of a party girl because she's a business lady for the most part.

Ashley Carmen (32:00)

And is married.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (32:01)

Yeah, and is married and is older. But Alix Earle, if you listen to her podcast, feels like she has a similar quality. She's delivering the same sort of hit if you're somebody who's into that.

Ashley Carmen (32:12)

Yeah. Although they are different generations. You know, Alex Earl's a Gen Z and Alex Cooper's a millennial. So it is. It's just interesting to see the two of them are kind of co developing alongside each other in certain ways.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (32:23)

Yeah, it's the Kim and Kim and Kylie problem.

Ashley Carmen (32:26)

In that case, they're family,

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (32:30)

for better or worse. Yes.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (32:31)

But the two appear to have beef. What do we know about that?

Ashley Carmen (32:34)

So when it was found out that this show, Alex Earl's show, was being dropped by Unwel, a lot of explanation wasn't provided, which, of course, people speculated now for over a year about what happened there. And then recently, Alex Cooper posted a video where she basically called out Alix Earle. She says Something to the effect of she's tired of waking up and seeing Alix Earle spreading fake drama, which might have been referencing a video that Alix Earle reposted that kind of criticized Alex Cooper's interview styles and how she chooses who to interview. And so then Alex Earle responded that she's on it, seemingly suggesting she's going to respond. And so far we haven't heard anything else. So once again, there is this opening in the dialogue where people are just really speculating and trying to figure out what's going on. It's worth noting that Alix Earle does have a Netflix series coming out. So people are speculating that maybe she's saving the response for the Netflix series. Who knows? And also in the same vein, it is worth noting here as well that I think we mentioned, but Sophia also has her memoir coming out. So yeah, it's a little bit of a dicey time for Alex Cooper, I would say.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (33:51)

But meanwhile, in the backdrop of all this, Alex Cooper's company, her business is in turmoil, according to your reporting. I mean, can you tell us what's going on?

Ashley Carmen (34:00)

There's a few things going on. First and foremost, the thing that I reported is that Matt Kaplan, Alex's husband, who again is the co CEO, has basically developed a reputation for yelling at staff to the point of at times making them cry. So I document a couple cases where this has happened. I note that they put out a show called Unwell winter Games on YouTube that basically had influencers and does include

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (34:26)

Taylor, Frankie Paul's ex, Dakota Mortensen as one of the. Really one of the contestants. Yeah. This feels like Bravo for Gen Z or something.

Ashley Carmen (34:36)

Yeah, it's a network, everyone. If you're very online and you care about the specific community of online, you probably know a lot of the players in this space. So we document how during that filming, Matt Kaplan berated staff and threatened to prevent them from ever working in Hollywood again if they messed up. And this ended up with a very prominent, long experienced crew member breaking down in tears. The crew filed complaints and told leadership that they would quit if Kaplan didn't behave better. And then we have a very similar story out of the Live tour that was documented in Call Her Alex. If you watch that documentary, the production manager basically says that he's going to quit. And in one of the scenes in the documentary, Matt says, well, he's burnt out. But my reporting shows that the manager actually was really more concerned about Matt disrespecting staff by yelling and swearing at them. So you have this tense Matt relationship with his staff. But then I also document the turnover that's happening at the company. Alex Cooper has said that she had around 100 employees and on LinkedIn at least 20 had marked themselves as leaving in 2025 and 2026. I note that some of the original programming they did for Sirius XM was canceled in less than a year of being launched. Many of the shows that Unwell has launched, basically all of them mostly receive under 100,000 downloads a month and have largely not been breakout successes. It's just been kind of this question about she has positioned herself as this media mogul who's going to expand her empire. She has a product, a drink line product, she has the tours, she has all these shows, she has a bunch of film and TV projects. And I think it's right now just a question of how is that really going in my reporting. Put some questions around it.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (36:46)

I mean, have they responded?

Ashley Carmen (36:48)

They declined to comment for the story.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (36:50)

Okay, and then you had a brief follow up story.

Ashley Carmen (36:54)

Yeah. So right after that story published. I mean you guys are journalists, you've covered companies in the past where typically what happens is a story comes out and leadership tends to address staff in an all hands and they oftentimes are a bit more candid about what's really going on and how they feel about the reporting. And so I was really interested in what would go on there. My reporting found that in this all hands that was hosted after my story came out, Alex and Matt, again co CEOs ended up not coming to the meeting. They skipped it entirely and it was instead led by Unwell's chief marketing officer. He sort of addressed my reporting. He basically said that the turnover is actually better than other startups. He said they're seeking to improve. And he noted that part of that is bringing on new executive leadership. And I call this out my story. But just so people know, they did bring on some new executives, including someone from the company Honey, as well as someone from the Ellen DeGeneres Show.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (37:50)

And so she's not like, since those other podcasts aren't doing that well, they're now focusing on acquiring existing shows. But there's a lot of competition for shows that are existing and have good numbers, right?

Ashley Carmen (38:05)

Absolutely. I mean existing shows come with a built in audience. So of course networks, bigger networks. I'm Talking about the SiriusXM's of the world, the ihearts of the world, the Spotify's of the world. They're all looking at existing shows as well. And they are mega corporations. That have a lot more money to spend potentially. So it is a competitive space. Yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (38:28)

What is the career trajectory for creators now? I mean, it seems like going it on your own is really tempting. It's not like the normal USA way of doing things where you just build this thing up so you can sell it. Right. And then get out. Because this is a company that's built around you, so there's no getting out.

Ashley Carmen (38:52)

I mean, this is like the big thing everyone in the creator space is grappling with right now. I think that creators are hoping, some, not all, but some probably do hope they can identify the next burgeoning talent and that becomes the big moneymaker. Maybe they're diversified across a bunch of different talent, and then, yeah, maybe they can step back a little bit, or maybe they make more money through products and they're not on that content grind. I think, you know, Jake Paul is kind of a good example here because now he does boxing. Like, he's largely off the YouTube and content grind. And I believe some of how he's done that is just through taking investment in companies and again, developing this sort of side career as a boxer.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (39:34)

I think what's so interesting to me is we're talking about this new media landscape of podcasters and how these film video podcasts are essentially replacing talk shows or replacing TV in many ways. But at least with Alex Cooper and her company, it seems like old media problems. Like in her husband, we seem to have this classic archetype of the yeller, which is very prevalent in Hollywood in a million stories about just the person, usually a guy who can't stop yelling. And we also have, like, a very classic Hollywood move in her origin story of what I would characterize as this alleged ruthless business betrayal. That, to me, is really interesting, those parallels. It doesn't stop in some ways.

Ashley Carmen (40:21)

Well, and just the pressure to expand. I mean, there's a world in which she or any other creator who's very prominent and goes out and launches more ventures could just stay as that creator in that show and those ventures. But you do see this desire to really go out and build an empire. And as of right now, I don't know how many have done that very successfully.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (40:47)

Ultimately, this is a cult of personality, more in culture than ever before. It's you, your face. It's. That's what you're selling. You're selling that parasocial relationship, whatever people are getting from you specifically. And brands that aren't around a specific person that people love or. Well, yeah, you have to love Right. It's not even love to hate anymore. It's like you actually have to really care about this person to consume so many hours of their content. You know, it's one thing to watch a tick tock and go like, oh, that's beef. I hate her. It's like you're not gonna listen to like 5 hours of podcasts of somebody you hate. From an investor standpoint, this is the worst situation ever. You mean I have to invest in this company that that's based around this person who can decide what she wants to do at any given moment and maybe pull out or maybe her mom gets sick or maybe, you know, a million things can happen. You know, I just want to sell some Captain Crunch.

Ashley Carmen (41:43)

And I think this is where, you know, when formal investment comes in, they tend to bring in seasoned executives who can shepherd this company, let the creatives cook, do their thing. And we've got this executive, the suit, who can really make sure the company stays on track. And so that's the trajectory we've seen in a lot of the creator run companies, is that they try it on their own and then a lot of times the suit is brought in to kind of fix things up.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (42:11)

But even for the suit, it's hard to do.

Ashley Carmen (42:14)

Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying this is easy.

Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (42:16)

Good on her that she's built an empire. Good on Alix Earle for also being talented. Why should they be within abc? These people deserve to be able to get their voices out one to one to the listeners.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (42:30)

I think. What's next in this story, we have to wait and see. Alix Earle might have something in her Netflix series that addresses this. Maybe there will be more videos. And of course Sophia Franklin's memoir, the other original forefather of cool, her daddy. Her memoir is coming out in November 2026, so we will stay tuned. Ashley, where can people find you?

Ashley Carmen (42:53)

I am on Instagram under Ashley Carmen. I'm sadly also making videos these days so you can see my face in your feed and read my articles on Bloomberg. I'm on LinkedIn as well where I share articles. So I am on the Internet. Everywhere people are interneting.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (43:12)

Thank you so much for joining us.

Ashley Carmen (43:14)

Thank you. Thanks.

Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (43:20)

That's it for infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. See you next week.

Ashley Carmen (43:37)

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Host 2 (possibly Natalie Robomed) (43:45)

Oh, these just the most perfect fitting

Ashley Carmen (43:47)

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Host 1 (possibly Vanessa) (43:48)

Oh, hello you who didn't set one

Ashley Carmen (43:51)

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