The Rich Utah Wives and Their Scams I Part 4

Summary

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Infamous Podcast

Episode: The Rich Utah Wives and Their Scams, Part 4
Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Gabriel Sherman, Natalie Robehmed
Notable Guests: Kate Arthur (Variety), Luke (Lawyer & RHOSLC fan), Amy Kaufman (LA Times), Ceci & Angela (Bravo Docket podcast), Bridget Thornton Knight (victim)

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Main Theme

This episode unpacks the aftermath of Jen Shah’s sentencing for fraud, the blurred lines between reality TV fame and criminality, and the ongoing cultural fascination with scandal-ridden Mormon wives—from The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City to TikTok’s “MomTok” and its figurehead Taylor Frankie Paul. The hosts and guests explore how and why reality TV continually enables both outsized personalities and serious misconduct, with deep dives into both Jen Shah’s case and the broader ecosystem of scandal surrounding Mormon influencer culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jen Shah's Sentencing: The Media Circus

• [01:01–07:56]
  • Scene Setting: Jen Shah pleads guilty to fraud in July 2022, culminating in a high-drama sentencing—a “P. Diddy OJ style circus.”
  • Inside the Courtroom: Luke (Real Housewives fan & lawyer), describes the eclectic crowd: “It was the girls and the gays. … I was, as far as I could tell, the only CIS straight white guy in line.” [02:07]
  • Judge’s Perspective: The judge emphasizes he’s “sentencing Jen Shah the person, not Jen Shah the character on the Real Housewives.” [03:03]
  • Sentencing Outcome: Jen receives 6.5 years in federal prison (later reduced for good behavior), $6.5 million in restitution, luxury goods forfeiture, and five years' supervised release.
  • Illusion vs. Reality: Many of Jen’s luxury items and status symbols were revealed as fake—“Because like Jen's rented house, a lot of what she appeared to have wasn't really real.” [07:05]

2. Reflections on Reality TV, Victims, and Remorse

• [07:56–15:30]
  • Post-Sentencing Portrayal: Jen Shah rebrands herself post-prison, forging a surprising friendship with fellow inmate Elizabeth Holmes (“Lizzie and I are good friends.” [10:47]) and giving interviews to keep her name in the headlines.
  • Media Manipulation: Jen’s interview to People includes pointed commentary on Ghislaine Maxwell, which draws the attention of Congress. [12:41–13:19]
  • Victims’ Ongoing Loss: Bridget Thornton Knight and others still feel unrestituted and deeply betrayed: “When you're involved in a scam, it has nothing to do with stupidity, okay? It's about that scammer knowing or finding the right words...” [15:30]
  • Jen’s Remorse?:
    • “It's one of the reasons that I fought for my innocence... I think how does one get there or how does that come about? I think it's just a matter of who. Who I worked with.” —Jen Shah on her role in the scam [13:58]

3. Why Do Reality Stars Turn to Crime? Parallel Cases

• [17:09–20:59]
  • Reality TV and “Hubris”: Ceci and Angela (Bravo Docket podcast) explain: “The answer to what would make someone do this and what would make someone go on the TV show are the exact same. It's this confidence, this hubris that you think that you can get away with it...” [18:14]
  • Other Reality Scammers: Tom Girardi (Real Housewives of Beverly Hills), Abby Lee Miller (Dance Moms), Teresa & Joe Guidice, and the Chrisleys have all faced similar legal disasters.
  • Recent Scandal: Kate Arthur recounts ongoing fraud allegations on RHOP, where insurance fraud appears linked to keeping up TV appearances. [20:04]

4. The Mechanics and Psychology of Scams

• [21:10–22:59]
  • Fraud Feels “Less Real”: Angela highlights how scams are psychologically “insidious”: “If you go out and mug someone's grandma... that's visceral, right? But when you are directing people to make calls to scam people... you can tell yourself, well, I'm not really hurting anyone.” [21:10]
  • Victim Shame & Reporting: “No one should be ashamed of falling for it... Report. Could happen to anybody.” [21:10]

5. Restitution and Aftermath for Jen’s Victims

• [22:06–23:51]
  • Despite official statements, victims like Bridget have seen no restitution: “All I know is that I'm not counting on that money, not counting on any of it...” [22:22]
  • Jen’s reality TV career is likely over; Bravo insiders don't want her back, and “season four, when they were free of her, that was like one of the best seasons of reality TV of all time.” —Kate Arthur [23:03]

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Mormon Influencer Culture & TikTok’s “MomTok” Scandals

6. From Church PR Crisis to Social Media Strategy

• [26:24–28:10]
  • Mormon culture reframed itself online. The church encouraged female congregants to become “mommy bloggers,” using relatable content to combat negative stereotypes and attract converts.

7. Taylor Frankie Paul and ‘MomTok’

• [27:40–34:57]
  • Taylor Frankie Paul, TikTok star, becomes the de facto “Jen Shah of the Mormon wives” — except without a fraud conviction.
  • Noted for her influencer looks and messy private life—which Hulu sought to capitalize on with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and later as The Bachelorette lead.
  • Despite a documented history of domestic disputes, Taylor was cast, only for a video of the incident to later surface and torpedo her TV prospects.

Notable Quotes:

• “Taylor, who... is not pulling any sort of scam, is not involved in any sort of crime, along the lines of Jen Shaw, looks like a young Paula Abdul, if you remember that.” —Vanessa [28:16]
• “You can have both and be really hot and maybe like buck tradition, but still get the golden prize of what women have been taught they should seek.” —Amy Kaufman [29:30]

8. The Bachelor Franchise’s Shift

• [30:00–34:42]
  • Amy Kaufman, Bachelor Nation author, recounts how The Bachelor began as “wholesome” but got “caught in this in-between space of not scandalous enough and not traditional enough.”
  • Casting Taylor Frankie Paul was a bid to revive ratings with a built-in, scandalous fanbase.

9. Domestic Violence, Scandal, and Responsibility

• [34:18–39:57]
  • The situation escalates as detailed allegations from both Taylor and her ex come to light; the series is filmed but her involvement is dropped after video evidence emerges.
  • Amy Kaufman questions the morality of airing such content and speculates on Taylor's likely pursuit of further, (perhaps lower-tier) reality TV opportunities.

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The Mormon Church’s Evolving Role

• [40:17–41:40]
  • The LDS Church is “very happy” with the influencer trend, despite scandals, as it distracts from male-centric leadership and boosts membership. “According to New York magazine, the church claims that in 2025, it had the highest number of convert baptisms... in its history.” [40:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There are many reasons why she shouldn’t come back. The other thing is this show is perfect. Why mess with it?” —Kate Arthur on Jen Shah and Housewives casting [23:03]
• "When you're involved in a scam, it has nothing to do with stupidity, okay? … That's what it boils down to. … It's like, who does that sort of thing?" —Bridget Thornton Knight [15:30]
• “If you go out and mug someone’s grandma ... that’s visceral, right? But when you are directing people to make calls to scam people ... you can tell yourself, well, I’m not really hurting anyone.” —Angela (Bravo Docket podcast) [21:10]
• “All I know is that I’m not counting on that money, not counting on any of it.” —Bridget Thornton Knight on restitution [22:22]
• "You can have both and be really hot and maybe like buck tradition, but still get the golden prize of what women have been taught they should seek." —Amy Kaufman [29:30]

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Timestamps: Episode Roadmap

• 01:01 — Jen Shah’s sentencing: setting the scene
• 03:03 — Judge’s philosophy: reality TV character vs person
• 07:05 — Shah’s sentence details & the illusion of wealth
• 10:47 — Jen Shah on prison friendship with Elizabeth Holmes
• 12:41–13:19 — Fallout: even Congress gets involved after Jen’s press
• 13:58 — Jen (half-heartedly) reflects on her involvement
• 15:30 — Victim Bridget Thornton Knight’s raw experience
• 18:14 — Bravo Docket: psychology behind reality TV and scams
• 23:03 — Will Jen Shah return to TV? (hint: no)
• 26:24 — Mormon church’s shift to influencer-focused outreach
• 27:40–34:57 — Taylor Frankie Paul: from TikTok to TV scandal
• 39:31 — Discussion on whether the Bachelorette footage will ever air
• 40:54 — Mormon church’s PR win: surging conversions despite scandal

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• The Real Housewives and its Mormon influencer counterparts walk a unique cultural tightrope—offering empowerment, style, and drama while regularly crossing ethical (and legal) lines.
• Scammers and reality personalities are fueled by the same psychological traits—confidence and a belief in being “the exception.”
• Victims are left with little hope for restitution—and a lingering shame that’s unfair but pervasive.
• Reality TV perpetuates and profits from scandal, even as its casts turn over and the culture shifts.
• The Mormon Church has unwittingly found a modern recruitment tool in the influencer wave, despite its messy real-world implications.

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End of Episode Summary
(For reference: ads, trailers, and non-content segments have been excluded.)

Transcript

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession.

[Jen Shah]

When I have a crush on a

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

guy no one knows, be careful.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

Who you wish for? Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten tomatoes.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I love you so, so, so, so much.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

What kind of spills you put on her?

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17, animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

campsite media.

[Natalie Robomed]

Hey, infamous listeners, Just a reminder that this is the fourth episode of our series on the rich Utah wives and their scams. If you haven't listened to the first three episodes, you can scroll back to episode one in your feed and start there. Thank you so much for listening to our show. Your attention is why we get to keep making this and we are so grateful. Okay, here's the episode.

[Narrator/Host]

After more than a year of maintaining her innocence, in July 2022, Jen Shah pled guilty. In the scene at the courthouse when she receives her sentence is a P. Diddy OJ Style circus.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

My name is Luke. I am a fan of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, and I also am a lawyer and one that happened to have attended Jen Shah's sentencing.

[Narrator/Host]

Luke didn't work on Jen's case, but as a fan, he followed it.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

The sentencing was scheduled during my like law school winter break. It was January. It was like a cold day. It took place at the federal courthouse downtown, which is at 500 Pearl street, which is like a grand, tall, very fancy building. As soon as I got out of the elevator on the 20 something floor where the courtroom was, there were so many people already in the hallways and I was like, oh no, like I'm not gonna get in.

[Narrator/Host]

There are family members, lawyers, people from the press, and of course Real Housewives fans.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

You have joked already. I mean, it was the girls and the gays. I was, as far as I could tell, the only CIS straight white guy in line.

[Narrator/Host]

Even Oscar winning actress Emma Stone would later say she waited outside Jen's sentencing for two hours in the freezing cold just for a chance to see J.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

I enter the courtroom and it's packed. It's kind of like a very hushed atmosphere. As soon as I entered, like it's very tense. A very dramatic shift in the vibe from outside where people are kind of like chatting, gossiping, like hoping to get in to like, okay, now you're in. And it's like very serious.

[Narrator/Host]

The government has already submitted a document to the judge asking that Jen be sentenced to 10 years in prison. Along with letters from victims, including Bridget Thornton Knight. There's even a victim who says they became homeless because of the scam. Jen's lawyers want a three year sentence.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

The judge started off the main part of the sentencing with an acknowledgement of the fact that Jen Shaw was on the Real Housewives. And I think he commented, like, maybe that's why the courtroom is so full today. And he, I think, very specifically said, I'm sentencing Jen Shaw the person, not Jen Shaw the character on the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And I think he made a point to say, I recognize that the Jen Shaw that is on the TV show is different than the Jen Shaw that is before me today. And I want to make crystal clear that I'm sentencing the person, not the character.

[Narrator/Host]

But is there really that much of a difference? So many housewives and other reality stars have gotten caught up in fraud and schemes and PR disasters. After all, a good reality star is reckless and impulsive, and criminals are too. From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media, this is infamous. I'm Natalie Robomed.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

And I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis.

[Narrator/Host]

This is the Rich Utah Wives and Their Scams Part four.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So last episode, we followed what happened when Jen was arrested, but made a bunch of free Jen Shaw merch. This episode, we're going to get into more Jen plus other reality stars who have broken bad, like Taylor, Frankie Paul and the Real Housewives of Potomac. And we're also going to talk about why the male leaders of Mormonism, a very conservative religion, seem to be okay with Mormon wives being shown to be somewhat unethical on tv. But first, Jen's sentencing.

[Narrator/Host]

So back in that courtroom, Jen Shah's lawyer gets up.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

She was trying to emphasize how this wasn't emblematic of who Jen Shaw was as a person and had she kind of gotten caught up in this business world. And this wasn't the entirety of Jen's character. I remember the judge kind of pushing back and saying, okay, you're saying she was so remorseful and she recognized what she did was wrong. But wasn't she selling free Jen Shaw merchandise on her website not that long ago?

[Narrator/Host]

That's right. The judge brings up Jen's merch sales during the hearing. Kate Arthur, the editor at large at Variety, remembers this, too.

[Kate Arthur (Variety Editor)]

The judge asked about the merch on Jen Shaw's website and whether her hunger for trinkets predates the show.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

And the lawyer had to recognize that, in fact, she was. But she tried to kind of spin it a little bit to say, oh, well, all of the proceeds of those sales are going to go towards restitution to the victim. So, like, she's just trying to raise money for the victims, which I don't know how well that played. And then the government was a little bit more straightforward. They talked a lot about how Jen was kind of the leader of this whole scheme, this whole enterprise, and that, you know, she may not have interacted with the victims personally, which is a point that her lawyers had brought up. But the government's point was the reason why she didn't interact with the victims so much was because she was at the top.

[Narrator/Host]

Throughout all of this, Jen sits and listens.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

She was for the most part, like looking straight ahead at the judge. I mean, her body language was not the confident Jen Shaw that you would imagine. Right. She was kind of just dwarfed by like the big courtroom. She seemed small and almost kind of submissive to this process going on around her. Then it's time to read the sentence. And so, I mean, at that time, the judge asks Jen Shah to, you know, rise. And it's like the peak of the drama where you know what's gonna happen and, you know, everyone is kind of like holding their breath.

[Narrator/Host]

The judge sentences Jen Shah to six and a half years in federal prison, plus five years of supervised release. And she has to pay six and a half million dollars in restitution to the victims, plus give the court $6.5 million of her own as well. It's a lot. In addition, she has to hand over 30 luxury items, including multiple Louis Vuitton bags and a ton of jewelry to the government. Plus 78 counterfeit luxury items including several fake Chanel bags and Cartier bracelets. Because like Jen's rented house, a lot of what she appeared to have wasn't really real. And where she's going, there will be no Louis Vuitton monogram totes or David Yurman cuffs, only handcuffs.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

What they did to your family, you're lucky to make it out alive.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

Streaming on Peacock.

[Narrator/Host]

These men are going to come after me.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

Taking them out.

[Narrator/Host]

It's my only chance.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

Put a bullet in her head. From the co creator of Ozark.

[Bridget Thornton Knight (Victim)]

Looks like a family was running drugs.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

Execution style killing. It's rare for the kids. Any leads on who they might have been running for?

[Narrator/Host]

The cartel killed my family.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

I'm gonna kill them. All of them.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

MIA Streaming now only on Peacock. Marvel Television's Wonder man, an eight episode series now streaming on Disney.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

A superhero remake.

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

Not exactly what we'd expect from an

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

Oscar winning Director action.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Simon Williams audition for Wonder Man.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

I'm gonna need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers,

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I'll.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

And if anyone found out, monolips are sealed.

[Narrator/Trailer Voice]

Marvel Television's Wonder Man. All eight episodes now streaming only on Disney plus.

[Narrator/Host]

You're listening to Infamous from Campside Media. So something that I think is so key to the success of shows like the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which we'll get to in a bit, is the tension between what it's supposedly selling and. And what's really going on between traditional family values and the ludicrous theatrics taking place on screen. I mean, for one thing, Real Housewives has the word housewives in the title, but a lot of the women on the show wind up getting divorced, which is, of course, really difficult and life changing. But these women oftentimes seem to come out better for it, or at least that's what they project. Just last year, current Salt Lake City cast member Bronwyn Newport announced her separation from her husband and then promptly got papped with a younger male model on another Bravo show, Vanderpump Rules. Katie Meloni divorced her husband and then underwent what fans called a glow up, complete with a really great new haircut. Her fellow cast member Ariana Maddox split with her partner after the cheating debacle known as Scandal and went on to become far, far more famous. In all of these cases, the women, even if they're pictured momentarily in tears, rise again from these divorces, like Phoenix's from the Ashes, hotter, stronger, and more stylish than ever. And while Jen Shah did not get divorced from her husband, Koch Shah, she actually seems to have approached prison as a divorce of sorts, a place for her to shed her old self, make some new friends and start projecting a better gen 2.0. And the media eats it up because one of those friends is Elizabeth Holmes, a of blood testing company Theranos, who was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison for defrauding investors.

[Jen Shah]

Lizzie and I are good friends.

[Narrator/Host]

This is Jen giving an interview to people after her release. She's sort of being canny to even mention the relationship, even if it was a weird one.

[Jen Shah]

We both got assigned to poop duty together, so I feel like when you do poop duty with someone, like, you're going to be close. You have to go sit in the bathroom, pull a metal chair in there and sit in the bathroom for an hour and watch everybody come in and use the bathroom. And then when they use the bathroom, you have to get up, go inspect the bathroom. Either clean it if they don't clean it, or let them know to come and clean it.

[Narrator/Host]

In a paparazzi photo obtained by the Daily Mail, Elizabeth Holmes. Sorry. Lizzie is wearing glasses, her blonde hair falling over her shoulder as she smiles at Jen, whose hair is slicked up in a perfect bun, which maybe she achieved with hairspray.

[Jen Shah]

In fact, Coach would, you know, I talked to him and he'd be like, you need to buy food this week. You need to buy some food. Please do not buy, don't buy any more hair spray. And I don't know what it was, but I got so worried that, like, oh, my gosh, they're going to run out of hairspray at commissary, so I must stock up. So I had back, back stock of hairspray. I was like, the beauty, the health and beauty. I was like the Ulta. At prison. I had a lot of people that were after my skincare routine there and hemorrhoid pads and then the laundry soap. That was the winning combo for. For looking young over there.

[Narrator/Host]

Her sentence gets reduced several times for good behavior. And in December 2025, she gets released early to community confinement after serving less than three years of her six and a half year sentence. But she's still smart enough to know how to make a headline. When she gave her first interview to People and reminder, we didn't speak with Jen. She talked about Ghislaine Maxwell, who's serving 20 years there.

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

Ghislaine Maxwell. Did you have any interactions with her?

[Jen Shah]

Her experience there is. It's very different from anyone else's. Even Elizabeth, there's no remorse there. And again, I obviously don't know all the details of the case or whatever, but, I mean, we know enough. It was a lot when the victims would be on TV and talking, she was just complete disregard for them, you know, and this is when they are pouring their hearts out in front of Congress. That just didn't sit with me the right way.

[Narrator/Host]

After Jen says this, by the way, a congressman from the House Oversight Committee publicly asks Jen to share any information she might have about Maxwell.

[Congressman from House Oversight Committee]

Well, I never thought that my interest and love for the Real Housewives franchise and my work on oversight would collide. But actually, we reached out to Jen Shah yesterday through a representative. If she is watching, please respond. We definitely want to talk. I think she's got critical information.

[Narrator/Host]

It seems so fitting for Jen, a woman whose character on the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City was always at the center of the drama to have something to say about the most famous inmates at her prison. And yet at the same time, what about her victims? Jen just doesn't seem that remorseful. In the people interview, you can hear her sort of half stepping responsibility.

[Jen Shah]

It's one of the reasons that I fought for my innocence because the, the time frame that was listed in the noted in the indictment in 2012. I wasn't running any companies in 2012 for quite a long time. Until, you know, recently before the indictment, I was working for four different corporations, right? I was worked in marketing. And so that was a little bit confusing for me when that happened because I didn't understand why I wasn't running anything at that point. I was literally an employee at a company. But I worked in the industry, you know, I worked in the industry in total. So I think how does one get there or how does that come about? I think it's just a matter of who. Who I worked with.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, so that's sort of garbled and confusing. So we checked in with some victims like Molly McLaughlin who you heard from last episode, remember? She says she lost about $30,000 and sent a Christmas card to a company that she thought was going to help her get her money back. I received a call from the FTC and they said, nah, they're in on it too. That's right. The company she thought was helping her was allegedly part of the scam as well. It's just so unbelievable, so corrosive of one's trust. Bridget, the widow in Las Vegas is, is also still dealing with the emotional repercussions of the scam.

[Bridget Thornton Knight (Victim)]

I paid the price and all those other victims did the same. I felt stupid, okay? And I hate to use that word. But then I had to say to myself, you know what? No, we were not the stupid ones, okay? We were not the stupid ones. When you're, when you're involved in a scam, it has nothing to do with stupidity, okay? It's about that scammer knowing or finding the right words and using whatever script they have to take advantage of us. That's what it boil down to. It's like, like I said before, when I talk to these people, they were. They felt so familiar. They felt like a good, like a friend, like someone that I have known all my life. That's how they spoke to me. And so I just let my guard down. That's basically what happened. I let my guard down. I didn't investigate, I didn't ask the right questions. Even though they probably would not have given me honest answers. It was just sickening just knowing that how can this person and all of the other, all of her other associates do that to innocent people? That's the hardest thing that I had to come to grips with. It's like how who does that sort of thing?

[Narrator/Host]

That's what's so bizarre about this story and speaks to what we mentioned at the beginning of this episode, that the line between reality star and criminal just seems like it's blurry. On the one hand, I want to forgive Jen because I want to think people deserve forgiveness no matter what they've done. In some ways, this is the whole point of the Real Housewives franchise, which is about middle aged ladies getting another lease on life. And she has explained that she was drinking a lot back when this was all happening and that her marriage was rocky. On the other hand, when you look at how a lot of older people fell for the scam, like a widow in her mid-70s who the government says a salesperson told Jen he really had in his back pocket, that she was laughing and excited and in love with me and that Jem responded, if she's in love with you, you better make sure she loves you for at least 16 weeks so she doesn't charge back.

[Natalie Robomed]

LOL.

[Narrator/Host]

It's hard to forgive. And the weirdest thing is that she did it all while on national tv. Who does this? Is there something we can learn from this whole story? I asked Ceci and Angela, the lawyers who co host the Bravo docket podcast, about it.

[Ceci (Lawyer, Bravo Docket Podcast)]

So the answer to what would make someone do this and what would make someone go on the TV show are the exact same. It's this confidence, this hubris that you think that you can get away with it, that you're the special person who can go on. You're everyone's going to love you, you're going to get away with it.

[Narrator/Host]

They point out that not only was Jen actively being investigated while she was on the show, she was actually deposed in a related case even years before she even began filming.

[Ceci (Lawyer, Bravo Docket Podcast)]

Top Shelf Marketing was investigated by the FTC. Jenshaw was deposed in that the FTC in June 2017 files parallel civil actions against both of them, both a thrive and Guidance, alleging unfair and deceptive business practices in connection with coaching and work from home businesses. 2018, the FTC enters into a settlement with Guidance and other related entities. So before she's even arrested, she's being investigated by the ftc.

[Narrator/Host]

Ceci mentions lots of people who've been on reality shows have found themselves in legal hot water while in front of the cameras.

[Angela (Lawyer, Bravo Docket Podcast)]

It's happened over and over again. Like we have seen Tom Girardi, for example, do it on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. He allowed the reality show to be filmed.

[Narrator/Host]

Tom Girardi, the attorney and estranged husband of Real housewife of Beverly Hills Erica Jane, was found guilty of embezzling tens of millions of dollars from his clients and was sentenced to more than seven years in prison. In 2025, Abby Lee Miller from Dance

[Angela (Lawyer, Bravo Docket Podcast)]

moms was committing bankruptcy fraud as the show was going on. Same thing with Teresa and Joe Judice committing mortgage fraud and bankruptcy fraud while the show was airing.

[Narrator/Host]

The Chrisleys, the Chrisleys from the family reality show Chrisley knows best, were found guilty of bank and tax fraud offenses and were each sentenced to several years in prison. And this behavior doesn't seem to be in the past for our reality stars.

[Kate Arthur (Variety Editor)]

According to Kate, we're seeing this play out on the Real House of Potomac this season where one of the cast members, Wendy Oseffo, and her husband, were arrested for seeming to have staged a fake burglary in order to collect the insurance money. And that seems very much related to keeping up appearances for the show, given that they collected more than $400,000 from the insurance company and we're watching them on screen right now oversee this renovation of their house. And it's just so upsetting. And, you know, Wendy is claiming to be innocent, too. This seems to be, again, a pretty solid case against her. But, you know, she's innocent until proven guilty. But it's so uncomfortable.

[Narrator/Host]

It just seems so wild to me, so absolutely unfathomable that one might be allegedly defrauding others while simultaneously broadcasting yourself to the world.

[Angela (Lawyer, Bravo Docket Podcast)]

If you go out and mug someone's grandma on the street and steal their purse, that's visceral, right? But when you are directing people to make calls to scam people out of business opportunities, you can tell yourself, well, I'm not really hurting anyone. If they knew how to run the business, they could maybe make money. That's part of the reason why it's so insidious is because there's so much shame involved, and so it makes people not want to report it. If people realize, oh, I've spent all this money, maybe I better just spend more money to try to make it work, because it's too shameful to admit that I've spent all this money already and I've been taken for a ride. These people are so good at what they do. And they catch people at the right time and they are professional fraudsters and liars and no one should be ashamed of falling for it. Like, I don't care how smart you are. I don't care what job you've had. If you fell for one of these schemes, it's okay. You are not dumb. Report could happen to anybody.

[Narrator/Host]

As I mentioned, Jen has to pay more than six and a half million dollars in restitution as part of her case. And the Bureau of Prisons has said Jen has begun making payments to victims. But Bridget says she hasn't seen a dollar yet. She's still living in Vegas, getting by.

[Bridget Thornton Knight (Victim)]

I've been in contact with the special agent and I did ask her about restitution. She said that that sort of thing could take many, many years. I don't know how she's going to do it, but all I know is that I'm not counting on that money, not counting on any of it, because it's. Unless she's going to go back to being a housewife and earning money to pay back her victims, I can't see her. I don't know how she's going to do it.

[Narrator/Host]

But it doesn't look as though coming back to Housewives is going to be an option for Jen.

[Kate Arthur (Variety Editor)]

I don't think that she will come back to Real Housewives. I don't think there's an appetite for her to come back at all. And I asked Heather Gay about this at BravoCon also and she said, I think Andy Cohen answered this for all of us, which is no one ever wants to see her again. There are many reasons why she shouldn't come back. The other thing is this show is perfect. Why mess with it? It's the perfect alchemy of cast members and Jen really. I mean, season four, when they were free of her, that was like one of the best seasons of reality TV of all time. And every subsequent season has been, you know, must see tv.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So maybe gen free TV is a good thing. But the Mormon stars are still dominating our social media and airwaves, especially when in Scandal. There's all the trad wives. There's the ballerina farm lady who may or may not be actually milking cows. There's all the trad wives who may or may not be tending to their broods. Do they have the nannies hidden somewhere? And media reporters say that the way that Bravo and Hulu have built their flywheel is just so strong. There's always another show that's ready to drop with new characters to get into the cultural conversation and replace characters who are getting called out. So right now, Taylor Frankie Paul has become the Janshah of the Mormon wives, the most scandalous of all.

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[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

Fabio Sementilli.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Big heart, big voice, big laugh.

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A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

He was like a wizard behind the chair.

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

But killers came for Fabio in his own backyard.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out.

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

There was rampant speculation about everything, but

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

every wild theory was wrong. Because the truth was even more unbelievable.

[Kate Arthur (Variety Editor)]

What is anyone hearing what I'm hearing?

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

And even more heartbreaking, the uncertainty of

[Luke (Lawyer and Real Housewives Fan)]

not knowing is a form of agony.

[Jonathan Hirsch (Cut Color Kill Host)]

From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel this is Cut Color Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening Today, subscribers to the binge can listen to all episodes all at once ad free.

[Narrator/Host]

This is infamous from Campside Media. It might be hard to remember, but not that long ago the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that is the Mormon Church, was more a cultural punching bag than a cultural juggernaut. It was not blowouts and bar fights. It was geeky missionaries, special underwear and Mitt Romney. There was the musical the Book of Mormon by the co creators of south park, which ripped into the religion. The HBO show Big Love, all about a polygamist and his wives and TLC's sister wives. The real life version of that. The church understandably did not like this public image. Perhaps to combat it, they encouraged their followers to embrace the Internet. In 2007, Brigham Young University, Hawaii graduates were told to, quote, join the conversation by participating on the Internet, particularly the new media, to share the gospel. End quote. Mommy bloggers were the perfect way to share that gospel. Mormon women could stay in the domestic sphere but still work via social media. And by 2020, a group of these Mormon mommy bloggers were huge on TikTok they were known as Mom Talk.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So we want to turn to our new Bachelorette, the breakout star Mom Talk and the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Taylor Frankie Brady Paul is with us.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

Good morning to you.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Good morning.

[Narrator/Host]

Mom Talk were this group of women then in their mid-20s, who were all about posting coordinated dance videos on TikTok while raising their beautiful broods of children. They were a modern take on the trad wife, all highlighted hair and influencer looks. And they were led by a woman you've heard us mention her before, named Taylor. Frankie Paul.

[Jen Shah]

Taylor, I'm going to go to you

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

because it kind of feels like a lot of this started with you.

[Narrator/Host]

I was doing Mom Talk with these

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

girls and some other girls, and our lives kind of just like blew up. Taylor, who, to be clear, is not pulling any sort of scam, is not involved in any sort of crime, along the lines of Jen Shaw looks like a young Paula Abdul, if you remember that. She's very tan, she's very pretty. She has these sort of big features that translate well on camera. So, of course, in 2023, Hulu starts filming the group for a TV show, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which was Hulu's answer to the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And from the beginning, Taylor is front and center. So after some seasons of this and lots of Internet talk about her terrible, toxic relationship with Dakota Mortenson, just the messiest relationship ever. Last year, she was even cast in in the Bachelorette as the woman at the center of that dating show, the one who gets to pick from eligible bachelors and hopefully find her love. Who wouldn't want to see the soft, swinging Mormon on the Bachelor, which is a pretty staged show when you think about it.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

This is a modern quest, but it's a traditional quest. You can have both and be really hot and maybe like buck tradition, but still get the golden prize of what women have been taught they should seek.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

You know, that's Amy Kaufman, a former reporter at the LA Times who wrote a fantastic book about the Bachelor called Bachelor Nation. She's going to help us understand more about that show. She's written about the Bachelor for a while, even if the corporate overlords didn't love it.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

It all started because I was doing recaps for the LA Times of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, just, like, snarky little feedback on each episode. And this was when the show was, like, much more popular than it has become now. And I used to have this weekly viewing party with my girlfriends to watch the show. And I would DM some of the contestants after the season was over and be like, hey, if you're in la, my friends and I watch every week. You want to come watch with us and, like, give us some gossip? And because reality stars are much more open than maybe your average Joe, they would agree.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

In her book, Amy uncovered some of the more scandalous sides of the Bachelor. I mean, you have an unbelievable anecdote in here about a producer early on on the Bachelor who would give, I guess, contestants $100 if they would do something crazy in the hot tub. Or was that if they got a lesser producer, an assistant producer, to get somebody to do something crazy in a hot tub?

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

Yeah, it was $100 bill payout to producers if they could get a contestant to cry or basically, like, pull off the most dramatic move of an episode or a date to sort of incentivize them to go for the jugular and not just have standard date fare on tv.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Still thinking about where we are now in culture, the Bachelor was sort of boring. You have such a funny passage here from Karina Chicano, great writer who also lives in Los Angeles. So I'm just going to read what Karina said. She said this show put moral bankruptcy on parade. And if you're going to put it on parade, put it on parade. Enough with the muted grays and the wholesome questions. Include a talent show, have the girls perform a song and dance number, hold a pie baking race, make them blow a banana. But to try to dress this up in a cloak of respectability, the air is going out of the balloon.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

Basically, with the Bachelor, this is really about women wanting the ideal white picket fence kid in a husband thing. And the first Bachelor they cast was, you know, this Harvard grad who was pretty different from the Bachelors they cast now who are like personal trainers or like influencers. He had a finance job. He was someone who a matchmaker would set you up in the 2000s. So I think the Bachelor actually was wholesome in the beginning, even though the conceit was still crazy that you would date all these people at once. It was like. But it's in the service of ending up with the fairy tale romance.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Right? And so how did we get here? How did we get to Taylor, Frankie, Paul? Because I'm assuming that the thought process on the producer's end was, okay, she's a hot mess. And they want to capture more of the current day reality show messiness that we see on Bravo all the time and put it in this show that isn't doing that well anymore.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

I think like the Bachelor's identity, the franchise, the last five to 10 years, maybe, definitely five years, has been really muddied because it's become stale. The idea that you're gonna go on this show and find the love of your life. Like there's a track record we know that almost never works out for this show. It's like caught in this in between space of not scandalous enough and not traditional enough. And they have been trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean, they were on a pause for a while before Taylor, Frankie Paul was the Bachelorette. They hadn't filmed a few seasons and listening to the analysis and reporting that's come out of what happened with casting her, it sounds like, not to be too cynical, but a lot about money. The corporate synergy was really important for Hulu and abc, which had this huge hit with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And they were like, okay, you know, they put people on Dancing with the Stars. That works well for them all the time. They had a built in fan base already. She's popular and so like, why not put her on and break the formula of only using people from within the franchise usually to be their star.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So Taylor seems like the person to revive the franchise. Except during the filming of Secret Lives, she'd gotten into a fight with her then boyfriend Dakota, and was arrested and initially charged with assault, criminal mischief and commission of domestic violence in the presence of a child.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

This was an open thing that the first episode of Mormon Wives, Taylor was in a domestic dispute with her, the father of her child. It was never not known. You could always look up the court records and no one really seemed to have an issue with it until there was actual video proof of it and it became more tangible.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

She pled guilty to aggravated assault, took a parenting course, and all the other charges were dismissed. And even though everyone knew this before she was cast as the Bachelorette, now the video recording of her throwing a chair in the presence of her child is out. Plus there's other incidents that have happened between the two of them. According to the LA Times, there's a domestic assault investigation between the two with allegations being made in both directions. In the police report, Dakota described two instances of assault that included grabbing, scratching, shoving and striking. And Another incident from 2024, Dakota gets temporary custody of their child ever. And then Taylor sues over that. Basically they're both saying each other is the aggressor. So they filmed the entire series with Tyler, Frankie Paul. Like they spend a bunch of money doing this yeah. And they wrap the filming, and then we assume that Dakota sends the actual video of this domestic violence, alleged domestic violence, with the child present to tmz

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

when people say they wanted to watch it for the mess. Like, that's not the kind of mess that I'm interested in watching because it's serious and impacts children's lives. I've heard a lot of people be like, if this was a dude who had been the Bachelor, and then you found out that he had made a plea deal to aggravated assault, like, can you imagine how that would have gone down? Like, all of the women would have been like, how dare you? ABC put me in this position until she was in a different place. I don't think it was responsible to take on this position. And I feel for the guys who went through it. And, yes, it's reality tv, but, like, maybe some of them had real feelings for her. And meanwhile, she's, like, hooking up with her ex.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Since then, the two have been duking it out in the press with update after update that seemed to make the other look so bad. As the New York Times wrote, Taylor's court petition portrays Dakota as an emotionally and physically abusive ex boyfriend who could not stand her leaving him for good. Which, I mean, he wouldn't be the first guy to do something like that. But his court papers make it seem like she's out of control and was always escalating things to what he calls a dangerous level.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

Mormon Wives is resuming filming, but it said, without Taylor, Frankie Paul. And then she posted like, that's not what they told me kind of thing. I've seen her post a lot of things of, like, this has been a really hard time. I've broken down. I'm. I'm leaving the Mormon Church. So it's like, is it money driven? Does she want to just keep being on tv? Because what is the next path for her? I don't see her wanting to just retreat back to Utah and focus on healing and her family. That doesn't seem like the vibe so far, but I don't know.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So I know you don't have a crystal ball, but where do you think culture will put Taylor? Frankie Paul? Do you think she's sort of forgotten within a few months? Do you think this messy legal drama will keep her in the news and people will continue to watch her story? Do you think that we're gonna find out in five years that actually he really was abusing her psychologically to the point where whatever she did really was reaction to things off screen? That we didn't know about.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

I mean, speaking of investigative journalism, which, sadly, especially in pop culture, is dwindling by the day, I think if someone did a deep dive into the dynamics of that relationship and could paint a fuller picture, I think that could benefit her. And in a way that it being depicted on that reality show would not. Because, like, I don't trust that they're gonna show the accurate full picture. If Hulu decides not to put her back on the show, then I don't know which way she goes. I mean, she doesn't give me the energy of someone who's just gonna be like, okay, well, that was my experience, and I'm just gonna return to my Utah life. Like, I see. I could see her going on like House of Villains or Special Forces or those shows that have a bunch of old reality stars from other shows maybe trying to show a new side of themselves, you know, I don't know. I just. It's not like she's gonna get a bunch of influencer brand deals at this point. Right. So I feel like she'll still try to keep her in the spotlight.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Do you think that ABC will ever run it? I mean, this is never gonna be a fun watch for people unless they're just into that level of toxicity.

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

I think people like that stuff. I think it would be. They'd be like, they wanna see it. I don't think they'll air it. I just don't like what's advantageous for them about it. Could they even ratings? Yeah, getting the money back from the ads. But I think that's so tainted at this point.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I mean, the idea that the other women don't want her on the show seems ridiculous because why would they not want her on the show? It's gonna make everybody watch because they

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

want to be the stars themselves. I don't know.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Yeah, but nobody really cares about them in the same way, do they?

[Amy Kaufman (LA Times Reporter)]

No, but they hope that they will.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So that's it for this episode. But one more thing. Where's the church in all this? As I said earlier, the Mormon Church is interested in mommy bloggers and trad wives and yes, even reality show wives, spreading the word that Mormon wives are hot and independent. Maybe they're a little less interested when they're assaulting. But regardless, what these stories do is help people think that Mormonism doesn't have a group of men at the center of it controlling everything, which actually seems

[Narrator/Host]

to be the case.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So in that way, the church must be very happy, especially because it's bringing in new members, it seems. According to New York magazine, the church claims that in 2020, 25, it had the highest number of convert baptisms of any 12 month period in its history. All right, see you next week, everyone. When we're going to be talking about a very different type of scandal, we'll be looking into Alex Cooper's Unwell empire and the way that it's dominated media for female millennials and Gen Z and also devolved into a bit of a shouting match.

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