Natalie Robomed (3:08)

I was also surprised by how prominently Williamstown Theatre Festival featured in her life. Can you tell me a little bit about what that was and what that represented for Gwyneth as well? Part of this east coast kind of artsy, fartsy, but also slightly society life.

Amy Odell (3:25)

Yeah. So Gwyneth grew up from the time she was 2, I think. BLYTHE started performing at Williamstown Theatre Festival, which was being run by a Greek maestro, Nico Sakropoulos. And he was very ambitious, and he wanted to stage really elaborate productions for what was summer stock theater, essentially. So. So he would get really good actors like Blythe Danner. Christopher Reeve is one who would go to come in for the summer, spend a few weeks working on these shows, and the Berkshires in Massachusetts. And so Gwyneth was exposed from the time she was a little toddler to the best plays, the best writing performed by the best actors in the English language. And she said in one interview, I found, you know, she. When she read a script, she could hear her mother saying the lines. And that's kind of how she knew how to act, because she didn't really have formal training. Her training was going to Williamstown summer after summer, and she got the acting bug herself. And she was slotted into plays at Williamstown Theater Festival. Nikos Sacropolis viewed her as like the little princess of the festival because he loved Blyth so much, he called Blythe Baby Blyth. And Gwyneth was just seen as an extension of her mother. And people there assumed that she would have her mother's talent. And to qualify her mother's talent a bit, the people at Williamstown Theater festival in the 70s viewed her as better than Meryl Streep, you know.

Natalie Robomed (5:03)

Yeah. I mean, and you had some great little anecdotes about how, yeah, Gwyneth started to get slotted into plays, maybe in positions that some other people felt were unearned, but she seemed to be pretty good. Is that fair?

Amy Odell (5:18)

I think for the most part, yeah. Mostly what I heard was that she was up to the task. But there were some people, I would say, more so from the people who were trying to get those parts themselves or who would love to have those opportunities. I think, you know, maybe a few of those people were less sure of her talent. But I would say, overall, you know, I interviewed more than 220 people to write the book. By and large, what I heard is that she had the talent, whether it was doing these little bit parts or acting in movies.

Natalie Robomed (5:49)

She actually talked about Williamstown when she posted a tribute to Matthew Perry, saying that that's where she kissed him or something like that. And it was very sweet. But at least to me, I feel like Williamstown represents the beginning of this tug between commerce and art in her life. Her mom was very much an artist. Right. And her dad, in a lot of ways, was very much a businessman. And she was incredibly close to her father.

Amy Odell (6:15)

Yeah. Hearing about her parents, talking to people who knew them and observed Gwyneth, you know, as a young child, that really crystallized who she is today for me. So her father, he was a very successful producer. He did St. Elsewhere in the 80s. That was probably his biggest hit, which was a critically acclaimed show, if not the most watched show. But he was respected. He had taste, and his taste extended beyond the screen. He was very interested in just the finer things in life. He loved nice restaurants. He wore cashmere socks, carried, you know, Bottega Veneta briefcase. He had a car imported from Germany, a Mercedes that a friend of his from the time said it was a little bit like Bruce, elegant, but with some attitude. And the car, you know, is very stylish, but took leaded gasoline. And there were not that many gas stations in Los Angeles that even carried it. So he had to go out of his way to get this leaded gasoline.

Natalie Robomed (7:17)

And so Gwyneth, as you said, got. Got bitten by the acting bug, and she went to college, or tried to. In the very beginning. She signed up to go to college, I guess, and then very quickly dropped out and just dedicated herself to acting. But it was very interesting to see in your reporting that she wasn't instantly in hits. I mean, how did her career really get going?

Amy Odell (7:41)

I mean, she wanted to be a movie star, leaving Spence, and she didn't want to go to college, but her parents wanted her to go to college because they had worked in the entertainment industry and they knew this is not a stable profession. You know, they saw that firsthand every day. But she was really not interested. She was just so convinced that her fate was sealed, that she would be fine. And I think the reason she felt that way is because her parents imbued her with such confidence. And that's what I heard again and again, that she just had this incredible innate core of confidence that other actors who were around her and her parents around this period, they were like, you just need that. You need that so much because you're going into these auditions and you face rejection after rejection after rejection, and you have to have that. Otherwise, like, you're not going to stand out and you're not going to make it. So she kind of had that from day one from her parents. But, yeah, she enrolled at University of California, Santa Barbara through the help of a family friend, Michael Douglas, because she couldn't get into Vassar, for instance. But she enrolls in UCSB to make her parents happy. And she does, as one of her dad's friends told me, no work. She was just having a good time, but also auditioning. So her parents did not want her to be doing this, but she did it anyway. She gets a part in Shout Out. She almost gets the lead, as I was told, in Shout, which went to Heather Graham, but kind of, you know, lucks out in not getting the lead because the movie does not come out well. She gets cast in Hook by Steven Spielberg, who is her godfather and her dad's best friend. And her breakout role comes in Flesh and Bone alongside Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan.

Natalie Robomed (9:21)

And around this time, I mean, she also starts dating somebody very famous, right?

Amy Odell (9:28)

Yeah. So she dated Donovan Leach, or in the early 90s, and he was modeling for Calvin Klein. And through him, she gets connected to Calvin Klein. Calvin Klein falls in love with her. She becomes a muse and sort of billboard for, you know, minimalist 90s Calvin Klein. So she gets cast in seven alongside Brad Pitt. And according to one of my sources, she was choosing between that and feeling Minnesota with Keanu Reeves. And the friend says, well, who do you want to be your boyfriend, Brad Pitt or Keanu Reeves? And so she chooses Seven, and she and Brad Pitt get together. And as another person told me who knew her and Donovan Leach, you know, she got together with Brad, and then you didn't really hear about Donovan Leach anymore after she started filming Seven.

Natalie Robomed (10:14)

I mean, he was a movie star, you know, and that relationship seemed to really be part of what propelled her into the tabloids and having a lot of attention in that way, right?

Amy Odell (10:26)

Absolutely. So Seven comes out in 1995, and while the movie is filming, Brad Pitt is crowned the Sexiest Man Alive by People. And he and Gwyneth get together, and people said, you know, you kind of would have been surprised if they didn't get together. Like, they just sort of seemed kind of right for each other. So he was very well known and she's still making her way through. So when they get together, that, that lends her quite a bit of. Of name recognition.

Natalie Robomed (10:55)

But by 1996, the next year, I mean, she's in Emma, which is a really big Miramax movie. Miramax, of course, run by Harvey and Bob Weinstein, who would come to be instrumental and polarizing figures in her career. So can you tell me about her relationship with Harvey Weinstein and what that came to represent in her career?

Amy Odell (11:19)

Yeah. So she ends up auditioning for a Miramax movie that she didn't end up doing for various reasons. But she does end up sort of entering the Miramax fold a bit. And when Miramax decides to do Emma as sort of a comedic light hearted version of the Jane Austen novel, Gwyneth ends up getting cast in a reading of the script. So this reading, held in the Miramax office, was kind of to convince Harvey that the humor was going to land. Gwyneth gets cast in the leading role and people in this reading are just captivated by her and she ends up getting cast for the part. But Harvey also says, I'll make Emma if you do the Pallbearer. The Pallbearer is a movie probably no one remembers or has like, maybe even seen, except for me starring David Schwimmer.

Natalie Robomed (12:13)

Right. And so Emma really sets her up for her next big Miramax role, which is Shakespeare in Love. And what you just said about Weinstein wanting her to do the Pallbearer if she did Emma, like, that is a pattern we see again and again with Harvey Weinstein of this sort of quid pro quo of like, okay, you get to do this part if you also do this other part. But of course, that extended to a much darker quid pro quo, which came about when Weinstein would frequently sexually assault or harass actresses. And it was under the subtext of like, you have to do this in order to get the part or whatever else. And something similar actually happened to Gwyneth Paltrow. Right. Can you tell me about what happened with Harvey Weinstein and her?

Amy Odell (13:03)

Yeah. So according to Gwyneth's telling of what happened, he summoned her to the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills and he put his hands on her and invited her into, you know, the other room of his suite for massages. And she described feeling shocked and traumatized by this because she thought they were having a business meeting and her agents had told her to go and then that happened and she leaves and she tells very few people. But among the people she tells is Brad Pitt. And he then confronts Harvey at a Hamlet performance Theater performance in New York City and says, you know, don't put your hands on her again or something like that.

Natalie Robomed (13:44)

It's a disturbing story and echoes the stories that we would hear about so many other actresses for whom much worse also happened to than even what happened to Gwyneth.

Amy Odell (13:56)

Society had shown us only basically examples where women coming forward ended up not being advantageous for the woman. But I really felt like it was time. I think also having a teenage daughter that's the love of my life and worrying about her going into the workplace and feeling like if there was ever a chance that, you know, there could be a cultural shift on this stuff, I wanted to participate in. I never could have imagined that, you know, collectively a shift this seismic would happen. But I feel proud that I have a small part in it.

Natalie Robomed (14:33)

I wonder whether her connection to her parents kind of insulated her to some extent or allowed her to keep working with Weinstein with the confidence that this wouldn't happen again. What do you think?

Amy Odell (14:44)

Well, people around her who were close to her at this time said that, you know, from what they could tell, she was like his Grace Kelly. And she seemed to have him in some ways, like, wrapped around her finger. You know, I think that it was complicated because Miramax was making these movies that she was just perfect for and yet, you know, had this really mercurial boss. I mean, one thing I will say is, like, you know, nobody excused Harvey's behavior. Nobody. I and I talked to many people who worked at Miramax around this time. Like, nobody is excusing his behavior. But. But a lot of people did say, like, the movies were good and Gwyneth may have been, you know, just really looking for those kinds of parts.

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Amy Odell (16:38)

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Natalie Robomed (17:07)

I think it's really, really complicated and I think it really speaks to the power that Weinstein had within Hollywood that so many people continued working with him while still knowing about his behavior for so many years there. That's no indictment of, of Gwyneth or anybody else, but it's, it's this sort of devil's bargain that people often find themselves. But also, I mean, at least to a certain extent, she was able to keep going and continue this relationship in a way that was incredibly beneficial to her because then she did Shakespeare in Love and also Miramax was known as the Oscar maker. They would throw everything behind their Oscar campaigns to get their stars that golden statue. And so she did end up winning the best actress Oscar for Shakespeare in Love. As her career is really taking off and she's on this wild ride with Shakespeare in Love, which is just critically acclaimed and beloved. Her dad, her beloved dad gets really, really sick and it's really intense health stuff. Like she's helping feed him through a tube.

Amy Odell (18:18)

Yeah. So she is filming talented Mr. Ripley in Italy and her dad has to have surgery for throat cancer. And the production, you know, doesn't want to let her leave because they're on a production schedule, but they let her go to the surgery and then she goes back and finishes the film. And she talks about that experience as just being, you know, so, so hard for her because she was experiencing this personal tragedy. And that's what she has said, sort of started her down this journey of wellness. And she started thinking about, you know, what led to his cancer. When she's feeding him through a tube in his stomach, she's thinking about what is in this substance that I'm putting into his stomach. So she starts fearing toxins and starts thinking about, you know, what she can do for her own self so that she's around for her children.

Natalie Robomed (19:08)

I mean, to be honest with you, like, it makes sense in a way, you know, when a loved one gets ill, that it would inspire you to take your own health seriously. My dad has ms, and watching him get sicker and watching his health worsen has really inspired me to kind of think about my life going forward and how I want to be around in the years to come. But I mean, for Gwyneth, what did she start doing health wise at this time in terms of cupping and all that other stuff?

Amy Odell (19:38)

Yeah. Well, I think one of the earliest health fads associated with her was a macrobiotic diet. It's a very restrictive eating plan. And she had, when she was working on Shallow Hell, a chef to prepare special macrobiotic meals for her.

Natalie Robomed (19:52)

And she starts doing other things. Like she famously goes appears on the red carpet with marks from cupping on her back and other things like that. So out of all this, how did GOOP begin and what was happening with her career that she decided to start goop?

Amy Odell (20:07)

So she does these comedies and they don't do well. View from the Top, that's kind of a campy cult classic at this point. But she does View from the Top, which is abysmally reviewed. She does Shallow how she does Duets, which was directed by her father when he was very ill. He was working on that and that did not do well or come out well. Even the talented Mr. Ripley, which holds up by today, like that came out after her. She won her Oscar. It kind of only was seen as like an okay movie at the time. And she meets Chris Martin after her father dies, they get married, and when she has Apple, she decides to kind of pull back. She starts doing endorsement work too, as she's pulling back because it's just easier to earn money, you know, doing a commercial shoot for two days versus going on location for a few months to film a movie. So she starts doing more of that. And at the time, in the aughts, that was kind of seen as, you know, not really tasteful for an actress of her stature. And now I think we take it for granted, you know, like, you know that leading actresses are going to get paid by all sorts of brands for all sorts of things. But at the time it was. It was not something that actresses like her felt like they could just do, but she just did it. And she was like, well, the money's great and I don't have to leave my daughter for months at a time. And then as she's doing this endorsement work. She kind of realizes, why am I putting my. My own name, you know, on other people's brand when I could launch my own brand? And then she launches goop.

Natalie Robomed (21:39)

I think one of the most interesting things that your book reports is that GOOP specifically courted controversy as a marketing tactic. In many ways, it strikes me that she was kind of a troll before we were even really using that word. Word. So can you tell me about that tactic of just purposefully getting people riled up in order to get coverage?

Amy Odell (21:59)

Yeah. So, you know, I don't think that she set out with that strategy in mind. If you think of the 2008 Internet and how different it was from today. Like, Instagram started in 2010 for context. So she launches the brand Goop. It was just a newsletter and a website. It was, like, humble, you know, and it was just her recommendations. She's like, I'm gonna just email, you know, send out emails once a week or whatever about things that I like, the clothes that I like, and the restaurants that I like. And she also included health fads and diets that she was on that she said, you know, made her feel good. And she wasn't fact checking a lot of that stuff in the way that, you know, a journalist is taught to fact check. You know, she reads things, she thinks they're interesting or they resonate with her in some way, and she regurgitates them. And then the medical community would pounce. Oh, I should also back up and say. So when she started Goop in 2008, it was right around the time of the recession. Lehman Brothers was going under. People were losing their homes. Like, it was financially for a lot of people, a bad time. And she came out and she said, well, here's. Here's these things that I like. And the things that she likes are expensive.

Natalie Robomed (23:09)

Just like her dad.

Amy Odell (23:10)

Yeah, just like her dad. A Chanel little black dress. Or, you know, if you're making dinner, how about fried oysters? And you can use any kind of caviar. So it was stuff like that. And like, in her defense, I will say Vogue and Vanity Fair, they weren't recommending affordable things at any period of time. It was so triggering to people, and she sort of became a target, you know, for people's resentments and rage.

Natalie Robomed (23:35)

Yeah, I mean, that is the thing about Gwyneth. Right. And why she's so interesting as a public figure, because she seems to represent so much more than just what she is. She's really led the zeitgeist in terms of wellness and culture. She's someone we project all these narratives and qualms onto about class and science and health and where our, where our society is headed. GOOP Wellness had this aspirational aspect, right? Was, was that something Gwyneth was doing consciously or, or just. That was just who she was. This is just her taste that that was being reflected in these expensive treatments and expensive products.

Amy Odell (24:13)

She had this rarefied upbringing, right? And I think where she got herself into trouble as a public figure, she would kind of try to understand, like to her credit, but she just can't. And so she would end up saying something that was tone deaf or maybe insensitive or just really disconnected from reality. And then people would pounce on that. And I think that's what we saw with GOOP time and again. It was like this forum for her to say what she wanted on her own terms. And we really saw the kind of, the unedited, unfiltered view of who she was. But with every controversy, she only got more attention for GOOP and more subscribers. So she saw that the controversy played in her favor because her email list grew really, really fast. I mean, I, I'm sure any publication would love to have that email list and that growth rate and the people on the email list were, are a highly desirable audience for both advertisers and for someone like her who wanted to start a high end brand.

Natalie Robomed (25:18)

And that, that leads to her recommending things like vaginal steam ink and then the jade, the famous jade eggs, right?

Amy Odell (25:26)

Yes. And I, I think that she believed in these things, but she also knew that sometimes, sometimes they knew what would cause controversy. I mean, I think anybody who has to publish content to the Internet kind of knows that like you could have instincts about what people will like, but you are also often totally surprised by what goes viral. And that's what happened at goop. Like no one knew that those jade vaginal eggs would become such a bonkers viral moment, but they did. And then there were other things that they thought would, would go viral. Like they sold an energy clearing kit that had like a potion in it and maybe some sage you wave around. And no one really took notice of that. But then the jade eggs, the jade vaginal eggs, those became a big flashpoint. I think part of the reason those became a big flashpoint is because Dr. Jen Gunter, who is still writing a newsletter on substack called the Vegenda, she wrote a really well written takedown of the JDEX and explained why they could potentially harm Women and expressed her, I think, warranted disapproval that Gwyneth Paltrow would try to profit off of something like that.

Natalie Robomed (26:33)

This is one of the sticky things with GOOP is that there's a lot of harmless stuff on there, but then tucked in there, too, is a lot of pseudo science. And all of that is just sort of swimming around in the same pool. And a lot of people aren't discerning it, and GOOP isn't discerning it because they also didn't have fact checkers. What are some of the most, in your eyes, egregious missteps or dangerous things that GOOP promoted?

Amy Odell (27:05)

I think that GOOP really confused the issue around chemicals and harmful materials that we may be exposed to day to day. And it wouldn't be fair to lay that entirely at their feet. But Gwyneth was kind of early on in talking about toxins. Like, what is a toxin? Like, what does that really mean? If lots of substances that are healthy in normal amounts are toxic, toxic in extremely large amounts, like water can be a toxin. You know, so kind of going and looking for those in everyday life and saying you should not buy any of the items, you know, any cosmetics that contain parabens. For instance, there was a study done on parabens that was flawed that suggested that they could lead to poor health outcomes for people who used cosmetics with parabens. Parabens are a preservative in cosmetics and they're very effective. So that's how, like, your mascara, you know, doesn't become like a hotbed for bacteria. So GOOP was kind of early and like, the, you know, like parabens, like, should be avoided at all costs, but then kind of what ends up happening is brands use less effective preservatives and then the cosmetics become less shelf stable, etc. So I think that that was something that they were really influential early on, was just seeding this notion that there's. There's harmful stuff lurking in things that we use every single day. I mean, the vast majority of people, though, can't really avoid plastic. You know, like, when Gwyneth went into the courtroom for her ski trial, she was carrying a glass bottle with her drink in it. Water. I don't know what it was, but, you know, maybe like, she has the resources to avoid plastic at any, at any cost, but a lot of people do not. Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their Active brand, your personal best ypb Leggings are made with buttery, soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places. And common Abercrombie's viral curve love fit designed to eliminate waist gap. Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts, it's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best. Shop active by Abercrombie in the app online and in stores. I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three?

Natalie Robomed (29:36)

Steven. Because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood. You see everyone face consequences.

Amy Odell (29:42)

It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick.

Natalie Robomed (29:45)

Yeah, there's always a twist in this show. It's nothing you would expect.

Amy Odell (29:48)

Tell Me Lies, the official podcast January 6th. And stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

Natalie Robomed (30:01)

So I guess for. For Gwyneth, I mean, what do you think brought about this return to acting? I mean, do you think she's gonna keep taking roles after Marty Supreme? Like what? What do you think?

Amy Odell (30:15)

I think so. What I was told when I was reporting the book is that she understands that being visible in movies is just gonna help her in other areas of her career. It's gonna help with visibility of goop. You know, one example of this, as she's been promoting Marty supreme, she's been wearing Gwyn, which is her new clothing line. If I'm visible through movies, I will, you know, be on the radar of fashion brands for campaigns and stuff like that. And then someone also told me that she, like, rediscovered what she liked about acting. I will say, though, with Marty supreme, it almost feels like lightning in a bottle in a way. I just don't know how many times you can do this. You know, it's like her and Timothee Chalamet, and there's such fizz and crackle and spark around this movie that is just hard for any movie to create in the2020s. So I don't, you know, I don't know what it looks like going forward, but, yeah, I think we'll see her more stuff.

Natalie Robomed (31:07)

We didn't get into all this, but it's interesting to me at least that it seems that part of goop's problem has been that it's diversified so much. Like it's tried so many different things and not necessarily stuck with them in a way that has meant that it hasn't become this hugely profitable business that gets acquired, you know, so in some ways, even though it's been around for a while, it's not at the valuation of a Skims or something like that, or like Selena Gomez Rare Beauty, you know, and so maybe in some ways, Gwyneth is still searching for the thing that's gonna make this a billion dollar company. Or maybe she doesn't have that ambition. I don't know. I mean, what do you think is next for Goop, the company?

Amy Odell (31:51)

I think Goop has lost the zeitgeist. I mean, the 2010s we heard about Goop so much and. And then, you know, around the time of the pandemic, they kind of moved away from wellness. I think Gwyneth got some advice that she should focus on fashion, beauty and food. Food being Goop Kitchen, which I know you have in la, which is very popular. And that part of the business, I was told, is the company's biggest moneymaker, which is very interesting because it's like.

Natalie Robomed (32:16)

A licensing deal, right?

Amy Odell (32:17)

It's a licensing deal.

Natalie Robomed (32:18)

Gwyneth is. To be clear, Gwyneth is not in the kitchen cooking up. Cooking up your Goop kitchen.

Amy Odell (32:23)

Right?

Natalie Robomed (32:23)

They just license the name?

Amy Odell (32:25)

No, they license the name. And that could be a model for the company going forward. Like, if she does want to do more acting and Goop has had some layoffs, you know, I don't want to say that it was like a huge failure or something like that. Like, it's still going after starting in 2008, but yeah, it hasn't achieved the heights that other companies have. I think that if I were to diagnose the problem based on all the interviews I did from all the people who work there and people looking at it from the outside who play in this in the sandbox, like, she didn't have an experienced executive at her side. Selena Gomez is not the CEO of Rare Beauty. She's got an executive by her side and she's kind of like the phase and the creative. Hailey Bieber in Road. It's like the same thing. You get an experienced executive and you're the face and you promote it. Gwyneth wanted to be the CEO of Goop and I. She seemed kind of undisciplined and in just the spirit sprawl, like group doing all of these different things. Like, maybe it really would have been better off just doing the beauty, you know, and figuring out how to make that pop.

Natalie Robomed (33:23)

Yeah, because they actually were there early. Pretty early.

Amy Odell (33:26)

They were. She was doing clean beauty when people Were very interested in that, you know, clean, quote, unquote, clean. That whole thing has kind of faded. The idea of the clean beauty was like, don't buy other people's products that have toxins. Buy my products that don't have toxins. Which, you know, experts say is like a way of, you know, preying on women through fear of things that are not harmful.

Natalie Robomed (33:47)

Right. I mean, well, you know, GOOP may seem to have receded a little bit, but, like, we're still talking about it. So that does. That does say something.

Amy Odell (33:55)

Yeah. I think it's more about her, though, than goop at this point, right?

Natalie Robomed (33:58)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Amy Odell (33:59)

But it's always been about her. Like, Goop has always been about Gwyneth through and through.

Natalie Robomed (34:04)

However much she's tried to step away and have GOOP survive on its own, it's still. It's still gotta be about Gwyneth. Amy, thank you so much for coming on Infamous.

Amy Odell (34:15)

Thank you for having me. This was so fun.

Natalie Robomed (34:17)

Everyone should go and read Amy Odell's book, Gwyneth the Biography. It's really a fantastic read and so well reported. I mean, Amy spoke to more than 220 people for it, which is just the sort of reporting that does not happen anymore. Amy, tell people where they can find you.

Amy Odell (34:31)

Yeah, you can subscribe to my newsletter. You can find me on Instagram. I'm instamiodell I n s T a M Y o D e L L And I'm on TikTok at amyodellwriter. And I wrote a book about Anna Wintour called Anna the Biography. If you want more. More cultural biographies in your life, more.

Natalie Robomed (34:49)

Deeply reported biographies of polarizing and fascinating women.

Amy Odell (34:58)

That's it for Infamous.

Natalie Robomed (35:00)

If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Natrobe. That's N a t r o b e. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book Blurred Lines, Rethinking Sex, Power, and Consent on campus. See you next week.

Amy Odell (35:37)

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Natalie Robomed (35:42)

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Amy Odell (35:43)

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