Infamous – "Were the Puritans a Cult?" (Nov 6, 2025)

Host: Natalie Robehmed
Guest: Jane Borden, author of Cults Like Us: Why Doomsday Thinking Drives America
Podcast Theme: Campside Media / Sony Music

Episode Overview

In this episode, journalist Natalie Robehmed sits down with author and cult expert Jane Borden to explore the provocative question: Were the Puritans a cult? Their conversation delves into the origins and characteristics of cults, what defines “cult-like” thinking in America, the social conditions that allow cults to flourish, and why people are fascinated—and vulnerable to—these high-control groups. The discussion covers the theory that America’s Puritan founding imprinted deep-seated cultish tendencies on the national psyche and draws parallels between historical religious movements and modern phenomena like NXIVM and QAnon.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Are There So Many Cults in America?

• Historical Roots:
  • Jane Borden: Asserts that Puritans were essentially a “high-control doomsday group,” the foundations of which underpin American culture, politics, and identity.

    “I believe that America was founded by a cult… their radical ideas didn’t go away. They became the foundation of American culture… they’re literally in the DNA of the United States.” (03:00)

• Puritan Practices as Cult-Like:
  • Apocalyptic beliefs, brutal punishments (ear/tongue mutilations, branding), conformity pressures, emotional repression in relationships and child-rearing.
  • Children sometimes sent out of the home at young ages, not always for trade but to enforce group norms.
• Definition of a Cult:
  • Relies on Robert J. Lifton's model:
    1. Worshipped Leader
    2. Undue Influence/Thought Control
    3. Actual Harm
  • Puritans meet the latter two criteria but miss a present-day worshipped human leader (Jesus is absent physically)—making the classification blurred but not incorrect. (05:53)

2. The Lifecycle of a Cult

• How Cults Start:
  • Often begin with positive intentions or community: “They usually start out looking like a pretty great party.” (07:59)
  • Allure of self-improvement, belonging, or purpose.

    “The first episode of any cult documentary… you’re watching it going, that looks great, I would join.” – Jane Borden (08:04)

  • Modern examples often begin as self-help or “human potential movement” organizations.
• Growth of Control and Exploitation:
  • As charismatic (or sometimes questionably charismatic) leaders gain unchecked power, empathy diminishes, and behaviors become more extreme.
  • Finances and sexuality are exploited first; over time, boundaries dissolve further.
• Inevitable Violence:
  • Not all cults end violently, but unchecked, the group's increasing paranoia and leader’s need for ultimate control (“over life and death”) can trigger violent outcomes—e.g., Waco, Jonestown.

    “The ultimate control is over life and death. It's very Lord of the Rings—the One ring.” (11:06)

• Case Study: NXIVM
  • Started as a self-help community, evolved into high-control isolation, sexual exploitation, culminating in legal and public exposure. (12:12–13:18)
  • Host wonders whether, without law enforcement, NXIVM would have reached an even more violent or catastrophic end.

3. Societal Conditions Favoring Cults

• Crisis Breeds Cults:
  • Cults proliferate during times of economic, social, or technological crisis.

    “We see an increase in cults and in societal-level cult-like thinking during times of crisis.” (18:00)

• Modern Pressures:
  • Rising income inequality, under-resourcing, healthcare struggles, social upheaval (MeToo, BLM), technological revolutions (social media, AI).
• Surplus Population Theory:
  • When there are more people than opportunities (e.g., millennials facing job shortages, China post-one-child policy), “redundant” populations become vulnerable to cult-like ideologies and grievance narratives.

4. Internet–Fostered Cults: QAnon and Love Has Won

• QAnon:
  • Originated as a live-action roleplay on 4chan, spread using thought-terminating clichés and isolation tactics.
  • Notable for real-world harm (Jan 6), social isolation, and digital echo chambers. > “QAnon has been petering out since then.” (23:41)
• Love Has Won:
  • Led by Amy Carlson, evolving group cosmology, online radicalization.
  • Carlson’s followers maintained her delusions and isolation even as her health failed—cause of death: anorexia, alcoholism, colloidal silver poisoning.
  • Unique for being as much led by the group as by a single charismatic leader; gender dynamics shaped the group’s evolution differently than male-led cults.

5. Female Cult Leaders

• Variance in Abuse & Control:
  • Generally, female-led groups show less sexual exploitation, but the underlying corruptive tendency of power remains.
  • Amy Carlson shifted from charismatic and gentle to erratic and abusive, attributed in part to addiction and failing health.

6. Endurance and American Obsession with Cults

• Are Cults “Over”?
  • No—participation in cults and “cult-like thinking” is hardwired by evolutionary history and the societal pendulum between chaotic individualism and comforting hierarchy.
  • Modern “WEIRD” societies (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic) foster conditions for cult resurgence during instability.
  • Estimated 10,000 cult-like groups in the US—double early 2000s numbers; America’s First Amendment makes them harder to shut down compared to Europe.
• Why Are We Fascinated?
  • As self-protection: “I think we’re trying to protect ourselves. I think we’re trying to inoculate ourselves… When we're rubbernecking, it's the mind unconsciously saying: there’s a threat, I need to pay attention to this in case it's coming for me.” (36:36)
  • Shifting perspectives: less “schadenfreude” or judgement—greater empathy for victims, awareness of gradual indoctrination, and recognition anyone could be vulnerable in moments of crisis.
  • Many basic American attitudes—anti-intellectualism, workaholism, equating financial success with morality—echo Puritan “cult-like” legacies.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Puritans as Proto-Cultists:

  “If you look at the Puritans today, they would say that’s a cult.” —Jane Borden (02:57)

• Effects on Children:

  “The effects of high control tactics on children was profound—melancholy, nervous disorders, suicide.” —Jane Borden (06:11)

• On Power Corrupting Leaders:

  “Power is insatiable. It only wants more of itself... it literally mitigates our ability to empathize.” —Jane Borden (09:19)

• Cults Begin as Parties:

  “They usually start out looking like a pretty great party.”
  —Jane Borden (07:59)

• Path to Violence:

  “The ultimate control is over life and death. It’s very Lord of the Rings—the One ring.” —Jane Borden (11:06)

• On Surveillance Technology Enabling New-Gen Cults:

  “Even today, social media groups—it's the same thing, isolation.”
  —Jane Borden (11:07)

• On Colloidal Silver:

  “The short answer is: do not drink silver.” —Jane Borden (26:39)

• On American Identity:

  “Our tendency to equate the number in a person's bank account with their moral character—this is all cult-like thinking that comes from our Puritan founders.” —Jane Borden (38:29)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 03:00 – Were the Puritans a cult? Foundational American ideology examined.
• 04:00–06:30 – Explaining Puritan practices: doomsday beliefs, brutal punishment, child-rearing, emotional control.
• 08:00 – Why cults start as appealing communities; the role of unchecked power in corrupting.
• 10:00–13:30 – Life-cycle of cults, financial/sexual exploitation, the road to violence, NXIVM parallels.
• 17:42 – Social crisis and the rise of cults (60s/70s, today).
• 21:00 – Income inequality, surplus populations, social conditions breeding cults.
• 22:15 – QAnon’s emergence, cult tactics online, harm and isolation.
• 24:12–27:34 – Love Has Won: group dynamics, leader Amy Carlson’s decline, internet cultivation, gendered differences.
• 32:55 – Are cults over? No: evolutionary, historical, and societal forces ensure their persistence.
• 35:19 – Cults in America vs. rest of world; effect of First Amendment.
• 36:16–39:15 – Why we’re fascinated by cults, empathy vs. judgement, vulnerability, Puritan legacy.

Further Reading & Where to Find More

• Jane Borden: janeborden.com
  Cults Like Us: Why Doomsday Thinking Drives America is available wherever books are sold.

Overall Tone

Conversational, analytical, and insightful—combining personal anecdotes, academic theory, and contemporary cultural critique. The discussion emphasizes empathy for cult victims, highlights enduring American obsessions, and leaves listeners aware of their own susceptibility to high-control thinking.

Recommended for: Listeners interested in history, psychology, religion, American culture, or true crime.
Skip to: 03:00 for main theme, 08:00 for analysis of cult formation, 22:15 for the QAnon deep-dive.