Loading summary
Transcript120 lines
- [00:01]
Narrator/Announcer
On December 12, Disney invites you to go behind the scenes with Taylor Swift in an exclusive six episode docu series.
- [00:09]
Glynis McNicol
I wanted to give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close
- [00:14]
Narrator/Announcer
the book the end of an era and don't miss Taylor Swift. The Eras Tour, the final show featuring for the first time the tortured poets department. Streaming this December 12th only on Disney
- [00:32]
Campsite Media Representative
Campsite Media.
- [00:40]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Welcome back to Infamous A Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment production. As you may recall, we had Glynis McNicol, a wonderful author and journalist, come on to talk about Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and JFK Jr. Around the 25th anniversary of their plane crash. But now, if you are paying some attention to what's out there on the Internet or if you watch Hulu, you may have noticed that Ryan Murphy has out a new multi part series about their love story. John, I want to introduce you to Carolyn Bassette.
- [01:26]
Glynis McNicol
Carolyn, this is John Kennedy.
- [01:29]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
It's actually called Love Story and I wouldn't say it's been tearing up the airwaves like people are interested in it, but not loving it entirely due to some of the writing, some of the sort of canned characters. But what is totally undeniable is I believe the actress Sarah Pidgeon who plays Carolyn Bissette Kennedy does a fabulous job and really looks like her. I actually think the JFK junior Actor who people have been saying is not great is gorgeous and looks just like JFK Jr. I'm loving him. And the entire thing is like some wonderful rose flavored spray of the 1990s from the sets to the costumes, everybody is smoking all throughout the entire thing. Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is wearing, you know, a sort of olive green slip dress and going to the Roxy nightclub in New York and flirting with an underwear model and then getting into a cab and saying, you know, you can come with me if you want. It's just this incredible experience of luxuriating in the time, but before Sex and the City, like right before Sex and the city, right before Y2K, right before 9 11. So we're going to replay the episode that we originally recorded with Glynis. But she is also here to tell us what she thinks of the Ryan Murphy Love Story TV miniseries. So Glynis, tell us all your thoughts.
- [03:14]
Glynis McNicol
Wish we could time travel back through the screen to some of those places. I think it's funny because some of the reviews have been kind of harsh, but my sense is from people watching it that they're really enjoying it. And there has developed Such a cult of Carolyn following in the last few years that the expectation was it was going to be terrible because initially those shots from set of her outfits and her hair were so terrible. But apparently, apparently Ryan Murphy took all that criticism. They fired the costume designer, got a new one, sourced all the actual clothes, and then Sarah Pidgeon got rid of her wig. And they've done a really good job with her hair. And I think part of.
- [04:02]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
I thought she was wearing a wig originally.
- [04:04]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah, yeah. And I think for people who follow this, it has allowed people who are interested in her to just become like obsessive, almost like true crime, but for her appearance. And so they've really done a good job of replicating that on the screen. They've really got the transition from before she meets him. She was much more casual. Her hair was close to brunette and she wore it very wavy and unkempt. And there's sort of this march in her appearance that I've always been fascinated by of her getting thinner and blonder until her hair's like white blonde and her eyebrows basically disappear and she stops speaking entirely. At the time, after they got married, Carrick Garland was, you know, highly criticized in the press. Like, they were brutal on her. So sexist. It was so critical. She was treated as sort of a money digger who was not a serious person and maybe stupid, you know. And I think the reality of it, which people who lived at the time or people have paid attention, was that she was, you know, like a highly successful career girl who landed in New York from working in a mall in a pretty middle class upbringing with a single mom who got remarried and sort of had this incredible dreamy New York downtown life. Like the media and sort of the world at large didn't have a vernacular for that version of Manhattan because, you know, Manhattan was still a little sealed off that sort of downtown Manhattan culturally from sort of the world's perception of it. And then when Sex and the City, of course, lands in 1998, just prior to the plane crash and suddenly gives the world a real language for this New York that she was occupying prior to her marriage. I mean, she really was the Carrie Bradshaw before Carrie Bradshaw, right? She's downtown fashion smoker, social life, successful woman who lands her Mr. Big. And we never get the sort of post Mr. Big until the movies in Sex and the City, but we really saw a pretty brutal version of it play out in their marriage. Yeah, she suffered enormously from that marriage. She like went from this very vital, successful woman to a person who locked Herself in that Tribeca apartment. And this show, the first few episodes, it's been really interesting to see them tap into the truth of what her life, or some version of the truth, at least of what her life looked like pre marriage, which never got conveyed in the media at the time at
- [06:49]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
all, because you have, you know, basically, he's sort of riding around Tribeca, you know, in his bike with his, like, backward Kangol hat. He may have been called the sexiest
- [07:00]
Glynis McNicol
man alive, but tonight, he was just plain embarrassed. Strike three, and he's out of his job as assistant D.A.
- [07:06]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
what's next for the famous heir? And she's, you know, almost like a loose character, right? Like, constantly smoking every single frame.
- [07:18]
Glynis McNicol
This is exactly why I don't want a boyfriend, okay? I'm. I'm accountable for people all day, every day at work, and when I leave, I just want to do whatever the I want, whenever the I want to.
- [07:27]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
They have her smoking, and she's flipping her hair back and forth, which I do recall there was some hair flipping that went on in the 90s. It's funny. People don't do that anymore, I guess, because everybody wants to, like, take pictures on their phone. And so flipping your hair doesn't work, doesn't, like, read as well, you know. And then you've got Jackie O. Quietly dying.
- [07:49]
Glynis McNicol
Remember when Jackie Kennedy died, it was. It was like the world stopped. Your funeral was broadcast across network news stations live, which, at the time, you know, this is. It goes without saying, pre Internet, but almost pre CNN and pre cable news. Like, that's the entire country tuning in. There's that scene in the Calvin Klein office where they're all watching the funeral. Like, that's a. I remember those moments of, like, all television networks turn into one thing. And I clearly remember that. I don't know if it's. Dan Rather or Tom Brokaw said during this funeral, we will be referring to her as Mrs. Kennedy, not Mrs. Kennedy Onassis. Like, it was offensive to the American sensibility to even acknowledge that she had married, you know, Onassis.
- [08:32]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So, yeah, no, it's true. The O.J. you know, chase or Diana dying. Like, there. There were certain times where, like, everybody tune in kind of thing. I mean, really, they were our royal couple. Like, and I do think that comes out very clearly in this, and especially at a time when, you know, there's. The news is breaking about Prince Andrew being arrested last week, and we're really thinking about, like, well, what is the monarchy?
- [09:03]
Social Media Influencer/Style Guide Creator
Like?
- [09:04]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
What are elites even for? I feel like, this show actually does a good job of both describing the prison that the Kennedys are in of, you know, being from a very tragic family and being the limelight and not really knowing who they are and, you know, truly at their core. And also, like the privileges you have and the admiration others have for you. And the way that JFK smiles at people when he's walking through, for example, the Calvin Klein offices, he gives just like this little nod and this little smile, and everybody knows who he is. And it really reminds you of a time before people had their phones out. The way celebrities would walk through a public space would just be like, everybody would sort of be looking at them, but not. Not necessarily saying anything or taking a photo or running over, which people now feel like they have to do because they feel like this. This is of something they have to show for posterity to their friends on Instagram.
- [10:10]
Glynis McNicol
They really capture this shifting moment in New York. You know, I think people forget even that the crime rates were sky high up until the early 90s and. And then flipped sort of on a dime into the late 90s as being, you know, one of the safest places in the world. And the fact that they didn't move to the Upper east side to a doorman building made them very vulnerable to this sort of sidewalk tabloid journalism, which really just arrived around 1995, 96. So they're sort of standing in this weird epicenter of all these shifting currents that are all flowing through them, you know, and what they represent at this time. And, you know, will he. He was as much a public figure from birth as a private one, but without all the protections of the Royal Family and without sort of that historical necessarily expectation, although he certainly had some as JFK's child. But it's like they weirdly. They weirdly embody a whole moment and a whole. And not just New York City, but just sort of in American culture that, like, this flip happens that I think, you know, is super fascinating and, you know, still relevant that I clocked that thing too, when he was walking through the office smelling. He always, you know, he walked with a swagger and, like an openness. And I remember seeing her on the street and she was terrified at all times. Like, she was such clearly petrified of being out. And it sort of makes me sad in hindsight. So it's.
- [11:42]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
But they. They really, you know, even though they set up this sort of fairy godmother thing, like almost Cinderella, where she sneaks into this, you know, to the ball, like some sort of gala, right which is not.
- [11:54]
Glynis McNicol
I think. I think that's made up, right?
- [11:56]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
No, it's definitely made up. But also, it's like. I love that they're like. It's. Are you coming to the party for the Amazon? And that was before Amazon just met, like, the, you know, Jeff Bezos thing.
- [12:06]
Glynis McNicol
It's like.
- [12:07]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Oh, it's. No, it's for the actual Amazon rainforest. It's a benefit. It's like. Okay. Calvin Klein is like the fairy godmother who introduces her to John.
- [12:16]
Glynis McNicol
Do you want to grab a drink? Oh, technically, I'm working. Well, isn't everyone here? Wow. Quite the shrewd observation coming from the
- [12:23]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
bell of the ball.
- [12:24]
Glynis McNicol
The bell of the ball. I know, like, five people here. Well, you wouldn't know that from the
- [12:30]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
way everyone's staring at you.
- [12:31]
Glynis McNicol
Oh, I think they're all staring at you. You just keep that in your back pocket, don't you? I'm sure there's lots of people waiting
- [12:39]
Advertisement Voice
to talk to you.
- [12:40]
Glynis McNicol
Exactly. So you can't abandon me.
- [12:44]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
And it's a very Bridgerton, and I'm totally just ripping off a New Yorker story, but, like, it's a very Bridgerton level of storytelling. I don't know that I am convinced that she was just, like, upset about the paparazzi. I feel, actually the story is she was a super controlling person and also really into her own freedom and into her own independence and wasn't even necessarily looking to get married. And she did this because. How can you say no? And some may say also was totally in love with him, but it wasn't actually what she wanted.
- [13:22]
Glynis McNicol
You know, she was only 26 or 7 when she first met him. She had, you know, done childhood education in Boston and then worked at a mall and was such a striking figure that they literally plucked her out of a mall in Boston and brought her to the sales floor on Madison Avenue at Calvin Klein. At sort of the height of Calvin Klein. Like, she's her own Cinderella story separate from him. Yeah, she's. You know, she's. You could make an entire. Which, by the way, is Sex and the City to some degree. Right. There's a real through line here. And Michael Bergen, who's the underwear model in real life, dated Candace Bushnell. You know this.
- [14:00]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [14:02]
Glynis McNicol
Oh, yeah. She wrote this very famous New York observer piece about dating Michael Bergen.
- [14:07]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Oh, my God. Funny.
- [14:09]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah. So I do think she strikes me as someone who, like, culturally, you're conditioned to want. She's. She's always dated powerful men. The Most powerful man shows up. They, I'm sure had a shit ton of chemistry. And, like, are you going to say no to that? You're being like, this is a huge life. But it's like you caught the prize and then you couldn't handle the prize. You know, that the prize was not what you signed up for. And what do you. What do you do? You. I don't know. Like, it's. She literally never left the apartment. I mean, she left it like, five times. You know, it's just. And it's terrible when you see those photos of her after the marriage. She's almost unrecognizable to the person she was photographed in in 1994 and 95. Like, it's clearly taking such a toll on her. And she switches from wearing, you know, Calvin Klein outfits to almost exclusively wearing Yoji Yojimato. How do you say his name?
- [15:06]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Yamamoto. Yeah.
- [15:08]
Glynis McNicol
Who's this very strict Japanese designer. It's like she created this armor for herself. It's funny to call this love Story because I think she's the real life version of happily ever after is rarely serves women. And this is a prison. And we didn't get that in Sex and the City because they pushed it all the way to the last episode and then really sold out that episode.
- [15:31]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
What do you think would have happened if they hadn't died and they were still alive? I mean, you think it was an inevitable divorce? Do you think he would have gone into politics? Like, do you think.
- [15:42]
Glynis McNicol
Oh, I think the reason Hillary was holding off announcing, she. She did all of. She spent all of 1999 doing these sort of trial balloons, should I run for Senate? And it's because Daniel Moynihan, the iconic senator from New York, had announced his resignation, and they were waiting to see if JFK Jr. Was gonna throw his hat in the ring. That there was a sense that George had been sort of his political launchpad. And now that he was married, you know, and this seat opened up in New York, was he gonna throw it in the ring? And so there was a lot of people sort of holding their breath. So I think. But could she have handled being a political wife? I think the real question is the first time she was photographed smiling was like, six weeks before they died. Like, there was this sort of sense that maybe she was a little bit coming out of the fog. But also they were reportedly living apart at the time that the plane crashed. So I think either they get divorced and he finds a more, you know, classic political wife who wants to take the backseat and she becomes, you know, sort of like an extraordinary New York character who, I don't know, goes on Real Housewives at some point, who knows, or, or she, you know, throws in and they make a they move to, I don't know, a building with a doorman so she doesn't have to walk outside and be yelled at by people constantly.
- [17:04]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Hard to say, but it is a great slice of life. So everybody please thank Glynis for coming on to talk to us about this. My favorite topic, this new miniseries, this new sort of almost lifetime y but like very, very Chicago designed miniseries Love Story. And stay tuned to hear our conversation from a couple years ago about JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. If you can't get enough of this story, thanks again.
- [17:44]
Advertisement Voice
These days life is busy, schedules are packed and taking care of yourself can feel like a full time job. But who has the time? Hers is here to support you on your weight loss journey. If prescribed, you get medication as part of a doctor developed weight loss program complete with ongoing care check ins, dosage and medication adjustments and access to 247 online support at no additional cost, no hidden fees and no membership fees. Whether you want to lose weight, grow thicker, fuller hair or find relief for anxiety, hers has you covered. Visit forhers.cominfamous to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com infamous fourhers.com infamous weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See full website for details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchase.
- [18:46]
I love to cook and HelloFresh makes it easy to do more of it with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. I love having friends over for dinner during the week and HelloFresh gives me a great opportunity to expand my repertoire. With HelloFresh you can choose from more than 35 high protein recipes each week with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood and 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken. Plus I can impress my guests with new grass fed steak ribeyes and make meals with seasonal produce like pears, apples and asparagus because when dinner tastes this good, nothing hits like home cooking. I use HelloFresh for quick weeknight meals and you can too. Go to hellofresh.com scandal10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwilling knife, a $144.99 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.
- [19:51]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So you have been a sort of cultural thinker and writer for many, many years. And one thing that you have returned to again and again is JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. The two of them are of course, sort of our lost royals. Are, you know, preeminent couple that people were supposed to feel aspirational about for the rest of their lives. And they were lost. It's now coming up on the 25th anniversary of their death. Why do you think you have returned to that and written about that so much?
- [20:28]
Glynis McNicol
I think it's primarily her more than JFK Jr. I think he's a bit of an anchor, as powerful, good looking men often are in the beginning of why we become interested in certain women. I moved to New York in 1997, less than a year after they were married.
- [20:46]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Pre or post Sex and the City is the question.
- [20:48]
Glynis McNicol
Well, it's funny, I landed here the year before Sex and the City aired because it started in 98 and I never watched it until a year after it ended because I didn't have a television set. I was a waitress in the Village and Cynthia Nixon was a somewhat regular there and none of us knew who she was because none of us had cable except one waitress who would get so excited when she came in and none of us had any clue what she was referencing. And we'd be like, I just remember sometime in 1999 being like, why am I serving so many fucking cosmopolitans? So I think there's something very charming about having lived that New York with an absolute absence of awareness of the biggest cultural phenomenon of that was happening at the time. Anyways, Carolyn Bessette, I do think it's very difficult to convey, especially in the environment we're in now, like the all encompassing nature of her, particularly in New York in the late 90s. She was everywhere. She didn't look like anyone else. I think one of the reasons we still talk about her is her sense of style. It was timeless in a way, like in the truest sense of the word, that you could walk out in any of her outfits today and they would absolutely be of this moment too. When I encountered her and I was in university on the west coast of Canada was when she emerged on the Tribeca doorstep shortly after their wedding. And she was in this pencil tan Prada skirt, a black V neck cashmere sweater, these amazing knee high leather boots, which I don't think I'd ever seen leather boots like that before. She had this blonde, blonde hair and she didn't look like anyone else. We were coming out of that era of the supermodel. She didn't. She was what my father would have said, like striking as opposed to beautiful. And this was only 10 days after that famous wedding photo with her wedding dress was like, oh, can you wear that to a wedding? It was that white slip dress. She looked so casual. And for a 22 year old who'd been reading Vogue for 10 years and watching fashion television but was still walking around in Doc Martens and like cut off shorts, that was just like, oh my God, what is this alien creature?
- [22:58]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
They got married in this private ceremony, right? So it was like in a tiny island off the coast of Georgia. And they told no one, basically, except for their friends who were told like a few days before.
- [23:09]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah, it was such a big deal that I was watching one of the Sunday political shows this week with David Brinkley. Like this is what we're, the era, we're talking about, like Cokie Roberts, George and David Brinkley. And they broke into the show to announce this wedding and then the next, the week after. She was on these crazy magazine, like she was on the COVID of Newsweek, there was a feature in Time, she was on the COVID of New York magazine. She was literally everywhere. I would say though, the reason I think we keep coming back to her is there's a little Greta Garbo ness happening here is that she didn't speak. There's a two second recording of her voice that's nearly impossible to find. She didn't just not give interviews. You have no idea what her voice sounded like. And I think we are really drawn to silent women because they are a vacuum and a blank slate that you can project so much onto. And I think the mystique that has subsequently been created around her over the last 25 years, it's sort of wild to see her reemerging on TikTok and Instagram.
- [24:17]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
She's like now a style icon, right? Which is incredible.
- [24:21]
Social Media Influencer/Style Guide Creator
Hi guys. Welcome back to my channel. Today we are doing a style guide video for Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.
- [24:27]
Glynis McNicol
Today we are going to talk about the wardrobe essentials of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.
- [24:33]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
I would say that she is a
- [24:35]
Campsite Media Representative
perfect balance of feminine and masculine modern minimalism.
- [24:41]
Social Media Influencer/Style Guide Creator
So if you picture 1980s and 1990s wedding dresses, they were very poofy and marshmallow like. And then Carolyn, the pictures of her wedding dress got released and she was just wearing a very simple slip Gown and it just changed the wedding industry. People started really moving toward pared back minimalistic styles.
- [25:03]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
When you look at these pictures of her that all these social media people are posting, they look as though they could be taken in 20. Her style is timeless, but I think
- [25:13]
Glynis McNicol
in 1996 it was shocking in a way. Like you just had not seen this before. Really.
- [25:23]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Well, what about Gwyneth though?
- [25:24]
Glynis McNicol
But when you look at Gwyneth, first of all, Gwyneth never stopped talking even then. And Gwyneth was sort of like a pale comparison. Like you do see the 90s in Gwyneth. You see it in her hairstyle. And Gwyneth would wear those low slung skirts and Gwyneth would say slouch in. Not track pants necessarily, but there was still like a grungy aspect to her combined with that Drew Barrymore flowers in my hair aspect. Whereas Carolyn just was so unique.
- [25:50]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
She was chic and sleek and I mean the white blonde hair, the like incredible tresses, like a horse's tresses.
- [25:58]
Glynis McNicol
Buttery chunks, baby. You know I love butterfly buttery chunks.
- [26:01]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
What is that? That's what her hairdresser said.
- [26:04]
Glynis McNicol
Bradstone, who was like the celebrity hairdresser at the time, gave an interview which he. I'm sure he regretted because he was cut out of the Kennedy sphere. After that he gave an interview to Newsweek, I think, where he described his highlights in her hair as buttery chunks. And Newsweek was like, that's clearly the only butter Carolyn is consuming. If you look at her belt size fix, I mean, they took her apart. I can't imagine what it was like to be her. They took her apart piece by piece. They had a picture of her face in this Newsweek spread where they went over her eyebrows and how much weight she would have had to lose. And all of this stuff, she's up for sale. Almost like it was, it's. But at the time I was just like, how do I get these eyebrows? I didn't have any conception of the. How problematic all of this was. I was just literally like, wait, how do I look like this? My memory of seeing her on the street once was that I first only noticed her hair. Then I realized who she was. I was walking behind her and I was walking quickly because were in New York. And she kept turning her head over her shoulder to look at me in a very nervous way. And when I figured out who she was, I thought, oh God, she thinks I'm chasing her. She had so much anxiety that before I even knew she was, I was like, I'm making This woman anxious and I crossed the street.
- [27:15]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So the reason that she's coming in for all these scrutiny, which of course was disgusting, is because he was America's number one hunk. I mean, when he failed the bar exam, which everybody was shocked that he failed because twice he failed twice. Twice.
- [27:30]
Glynis McNicol
I'm getting to that.
- [27:31]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
But, you know, his entire family, not only was his father president, but like everybody in his family is lawyers. He goes to take the bar exam, fails. The New York Post says on the front cover the headline is the Hunk Flunks Again. But he was the hunk. I mean, he dated Madonna, he dated Daryl Hannah. Wasn't it that Sarah Jessica Parker, once she got famous on Sex and the City was like, hey, knock knock, JFK junior, Are you ready to date me now? But he was this guy who had been raised in this life of privilege, but he was now an outdoorsman. He loved to kayak. He was always on his rollerblades. He was biking. He was sort of this interesting melange of masculinity from back then. He was also a partier, but not a big partier.
- [28:21]
Glynis McNicol
I think it's hard to conceive of the degree of attention he lived under because he's got the Jackie mystique, whereas like the skin. Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg definitely has the Kennedy sort of straightforward New England about her. But he was gorgeous. Here's the thing, he was completely gorgeous. This isn't sort of like a made up, like, oh, he's good looking enough. He was absolutely gorgeous. I remember seeing him on the street and I realized it was him before her because he was eye catching. He was just a gorgeous guy and he walked with such confidence. And I also know I never met him at where I waited tables, but he used to come into where I waited tables. And the night chef in the kitchen didn't know who he was and was always like, oh, he's such a nice guy. Just like to sit at the bar and talk about basketball scores. And he rode his bike everywhere. And I think there was a sense of weirdly one of usness in New York, but also possessing that Hollywood esque mystique. And you think of Ethel's Kennedy kids who struggled with drugs and addiction and now some of them had very tragic lives. He was the little boy everyone cleaved onto when he saluted his father, who grew up into this gorgeous. He seemed to be very good natured about it all. I can't imagine growing up in that kind of microscope. It could really curdle you. You See this with the royals. And he tended to conduct himself sort of good naturedly, like a kind person that everybody wished.
- [29:43]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Well, I mean, he's living in Tribeca. He is no doorman. He doesn't use a personal driver. He's sort of out on the street. You're even seeing him. He's so much in the city that you're looking at pictures of Carolyn picking up a piece of poop from their dog. Like, that would run on the page
- [29:58]
Glynis McNicol
of the New York. Can you imagine? Like, I remember picking up the New York Post one morning, and there was the news. And then the sidebar was a photo of Carolyn scooping their dog named Friday's dog Poop. And it was just like, man, we were so obsessed. And also, Tribeca then was not what it is now. It was still not a no man's land necessarily. But he was an early arrival down there.
- [30:17]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
He was a bit alternative. Yeah, right. He did feel like alternative. And they did feel feel like New York. And America's premier couple at the time,
- [30:26]
Glynis McNicol
John F. Kennedy, is elected as the 35th President of the United States. It is the climax of one of the closest, most dramatic elections in American history. So now my wife and I prepare for a new administration and for a new baby.
- [30:41]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So tell me about the tragic Kennedy Klan.
- [30:45]
Glynis McNicol
Just a cursory look. Jfk, his older brother died in a plane crash during the war. I believe his younger sister had a lobotomy. And Robert Kennedy and Ethel's children, the eldest one died of a drug overdose. The other one, who had an affair with the babysitter, died on the ski slopes. So I think you see in that family the fractures of expectation and attention and beauty and privilege in all the sort of ways that it's not healthy. And I think what you see in John and who experienced similar increased degrees of attention and tragedy in their lives from a young age, a stableness. And I guess Jackie was largely credited for that, which I'm sure she deserved to be. But there's an even keelness there that is sort of stunning.
- [31:34]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So the interesting thing about this relationship between JFK Jr. And Carolyn is he seems, like, totally devoted with her, right? He gets together with her after Daryl Hanna and he break up. His mom, Jackie O, is dying of cancer. And there's a sad episode where Daryl Hanna's dog dies, and she's more concerned about her dog than she is about his mother dying. And that essentially breaks them up. And then he's with Carolyn, but she's the one who seems to be pulling away from him. Like, part of what you're talking about when you say the newspapers were horrible to her is also that she doesn't seem to publicly or privately play the role of bowing to JFK Jr. Which everybody else is doing, right?
- [32:31]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah. I think she came from a fairly normal suburban background in every way a woman can be. She was a self made person. Like, if you see photos of her from the Boston University Calendar Girls of bu, she looks like a suburban mall rat in a little. Like the hair is teased, the style is terrible. And clearly she gets hired for a Calvin Klein store in a mall in Boston and very quickly from there gets herself to the Calvin Klein head offices in Manhattan. The understanding of what you need to transform to take yourself from a mall in Boston to serving high end clients in Manhattan is really extraordinary. And you see, she literally transformed herself, right? She lost however much weight. Her hair went from brunette to this insane blonde. Her face changed completely. Not through plastic surgery, this is prior to Botox even. And I think, like, she's a person who exerted enormous agency over the trajectory of her own life and achieved what we would recognize as separately from him, as enormous success. Right. She was the head of PR for Calvin Klein in the 90s when Calvin Klein was like enormously influential and powerful. And you get the sense that she did not land herself in the shop girl role. Looking for a wealthy husband and everyone. When I wrote a piece about her a number of years ago, I talked to people who went to school with her and who knew her. And she sounds like a very magnetic person. For better and worse, she was a person that people responded to. And you get the sense that John F. Kennedy Jr. Having grown up with a strong mother figure, was probably responding with some strength there. And then the flip side of this is the second they get married, she seems to crumble over the restrictions of her life. Like, she quits Calvin Klein six months before they're married. She prepares for the wedding, one assumes, and then once they're married, she goes underground.
- [34:30]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
You know, getting married is a big adjustment. And for her, who was a private
- [34:35]
Glynis McNicol
citizen up until about two weeks ago, it's even more so. She just disappears in a way that signals in the vocabulary we have now probably some serious mental health hurdles of terror of being out in the world. And it almost seems a little bit like. And I'm projecting as you have to, because we don't ever hear anything from her that she couldn't quite manage the life she had set herself up for. Right. Like she had hurled herself into the Top sphere of New York society and fashion and power. And then was not quite set up to grasp the ring, almost because she didn't do anything with that access, meaning
- [35:16]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
she wasn't even on any boards.
- [35:18]
Glynis McNicol
She didn't go on any boards, she didn't start any charities. It was so clear, even from a casual observer, age 23, with very little understanding of the intricacies of marriage, that she was paralyzed by the life she had acquired.
- [35:33]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
And why do you become obsessed with this?
- [35:35]
Glynis McNicol
To me, when I landed in New York, I land here just like dazzled by the city. And in some ways, she's representative of this absolute new way of looking and the chicness. You can project all of your hopes and assumptions. And there's nothing to counter it because she never counters it. She's literally a cipher.
- [35:58]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So then he goes and he starts a magazine called George, which has Cindy Crawford on the COVID dressed like George Washington.
- [36:07]
Glynis McNicol
George's graphics will grab you and its writing will hold you. Politics isn't dry.
- [36:13]
Advertisement Voice
It isn't.
- [36:15]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So why should a magazine that covers it be? And they're basically married for 1,000 days. And they take this fateful trip. And so they get on this Piper plane, which he knows how to fly. Cause he's a daredevil, and they take off for Martha's Vineyard.
- [36:30]
Glynis McNicol
I mean, the tragedy of this is so compounded by the fact they were flying to Rory Kennedy, who is Bobby Kennedy's youngest child who was born after his assassination. So it's her wedding at the compound. Carolyn's sister Lauren, she has two younger sisters who are twins. Lauren is on the plane with them. He had just taken a cast off from breaking his foot. And the real tragedy of it, he had his license, but it was a July night, so it wasn't stormy, it was just hazy. And he did that thing where he couldn't read the instruments correctly and he lost sight of the horizon because he was an amateur and maybe didn't have the experience. Experience necessary to be flying at this level without the expert in the plane. And he got confused and it flew the plane into the water thinking he was going up. And by the time you realize where you're flying into, there's no way to pull out of it. And which is just a horrific situation. And there's a lot of people who think he was a daredevil, etc. But one of the reasons to get your pilot's license is that it was a. Enabled the two of them to travel to a certain degree without having to deal with the Attention, right. It was. There was some element of privacy to it. So they crash on the way to this wedding. The whole Kennedy family's in Hyannis Port waiting for them. They disappear. There's like a search and rescue mission that President Clinton sends out with the idea like, this is, you know, America's son to some degree. And then a day or two later, her prescription medicine starts washing up on the beach in Martha's Vineyard. And then they finally find evidence of the plane not far from where Jackie Kennedy had her holiday home. And then they do find all the bodies still strapped in, and they do a burial. Like, it's gruesome to a degree that's hard to convey. And of course, this is all happening at the height of summer and it's all the people holidaying up there. I remember, like, Christiana Manpour, who went to college with JFK Jr. Was like, on holiday up there and broadcasting from there. I just remember being in Williamsburg and, like, the TVs in the delis all along Bedford Avenue were broadcasting the rescue mission. And then the whole of their Tribeca apartment, that whole block, became like a vigil. Like, it was just such a sad sort of thing that beggared belief.
- [38:46]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
And how do you understand that as somebody who was so interested in her, in them, it felt shocking.
- [38:54]
Glynis McNicol
I mean, this is only two years after all these shocking deaths, right? There's Johnny Versace's death, there's Diana's death. And it did feel like all these sort of figures that you couldn't conceive of dying were just like, oh, my God, how did that happen? Of course, in my life, they're not real people. So on some degree, you sort of understand it as the end of a movie in a way.
- [39:23]
Campsite Media Representative
Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. Designed for layering and mixing, each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe that is made to last with versatile silhouettes and thoughtful details. They're the kind of styles you wear again and again. Like my Australian merino wool collared cable cardigan. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it's so chic and comfortable. I have been wearing it all winter and it goes well with absolutely everything. Quince has all sorts of wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last 100%. Organic cotton sweaters, premium denim made with with stretch for all day comfort, and luxe cotton cashmere blends that are perfect as we move out of winter and into spring. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.cominfamous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.cominfamous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.cominfamous
- [40:26]
Narrator/Announcer
my day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink. Then straight to the gym pre K pickup back home to meal prep time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com.
- [40:53]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
For you who have written this book and you know you've written a lot about being child free and I guess maybe part of why you're interested in Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is because she was a married woman who was also pretty unhappy and unable to figure out how to exist in a marriage in a way that self actualized her. Do you think that's part of it?
- [41:17]
Glynis McNicol
I don't know. I think late 90s New York sort of exists as this strange last moment of like pre Internet pre 911 New York that she represents. And I do think had she not died and been so associated with my first years in New York, which are so magical like your first New York is the New York that stands in your mind as what New York is. Right? It's your first understanding of the city and how it functions and you're always measuring the city against it. And she to me is so tied to that. She had made such an impact on me at the time. I almost think about her with tenderness or care. To me her life is her marriage to JFK Jr. Represented those first years in the city to me. In that sense I think she continues to hold my attention because she was so fascinating to me at the time.
- [42:10]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
So you've written a bunch of books. Your most recent one I'm just here to enjoy myself.
- [42:14]
Glynis McNicol
I'm mostly here to enjoy myself.
- [42:16]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Are you trying to leave the door open to and I also am grieving over my mom or why did you say mostly?
- [42:24]
Glynis McNicol
It's a line in the book When I landed in Paris. It's about the five weeks I spent in August 2021 when we were released a little bit briefly from COVID lockdown. And I had been alone. Like alone unseen, untouched for the better part of a year. I landed and dove headfirst into like every pleasurable hedonistic thing I could find. And I was on some of the Absolute and the men in Paris would say, what are you looking for here, Glynis? And I'm like, well, I'm mostly here to enjoy myself. I feel like it leaves a little space for the acknowledgement of, you know, life.
- [42:58]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Other things will happen, other things exist,
- [43:01]
Glynis McNicol
and I'm aware of them.
- [43:02]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Justice, you had the experience that a lot of single women had and men had during COVID which was being totally isolated, being alone, forget just about touch. Just like trying to have no emotional affairs either, right? It's like you're embalmed or something. And the incredible August that you have in Paris, where it's sort of late Covid stage where you can actually hang out with people and everybody's sort of not afraid anymore. But can you tell me a little bit about being child free and what led you to write the book?
- [43:42]
Glynis McNicol
I think Carolyn Bessette, in some weird way, you arrive in New York in your early 20s, and you're trying to map out some way to be. And she, for me, was an avatar of, oh, is this a way to be in the world? Is this. Does she represent some sort of way for me to progress in this city as the person I would like, how I would like to exist, having sort of very few role models in my life, which is, I think, our relationship to fame. So as I get older and when you ask me why I write about these things is that after a certain age, when you're outside marriage or partnership and you're outside motherhood as a woman, you are really left without many blueprints for how to exist in the world. And I'm constantly trying to navigate my way without a lot of cultural assistance. I would say, like, not that I don't have people in my life living like this, but there's an absence.
- [44:36]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
You have the women from Sex and the City. Well, no, that was a long time ago.
- [44:40]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah, it's not just a long time ago, but they're all in their early 30s, right? Like that show ends when they're 37 and it marries them all off except Samantha. So like. And also that show is somewhat limited.
- [44:52]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Aren't there more women, though, Aren't there more single people now than there are married?
- [44:57]
Glynis McNicol
This is my issue. This is my issue, is that I can look to my left and I look to my right, and in my life, I see many people living like me. And when I look to film or television shows or novels, there is an absolute. We still don't know how to tell a story of a woman that does not take you towards the satisfying love solution or the wedding.
- [45:20]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Third act.
- [45:21]
Glynis McNicol
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The wedding or the baby. And it's just like, well, and then. And then what? And then what? So I'm with the last book. No one tells you this. It was really. I was turning 40, and I was, like, dealing with a dying parent and also not having kids, and I was, like, really scrambling. And with this book, I came back from that month and I thought I had. During COVID I joked that I saw so many people on social media, were like, I'm taking this time to read War and Peace. Let me brush up on my Russian literature and throw some George Eliot in it. And I was like, good God. All I want to do is read about a party. I just want, like, I can only read Diana Vreeland's memoir so many times. I just want to read about people having an enjoyable time. And so when I came back, I really thought, no one prepares you as a woman to enjoy aging. That summer I was 46, turning 47, and I just thought, oh, there's so much available to me. Oh, I'm like, people can't get enough of me. And this sense of, like, you lose attraction or you lose or your life becomes diminished. And I thought that's true for everyone at all stages of life. But I really wanted to convey that this is possible, that many people are doing this and evidence of pleasure, and particularly as women, I think we're not necessarily encouraged to pursue pleasure as its own and means to an end. It always has to be justified by something. So I was just like, you know what? Let me just tell you a happy story about pleasure and hedonism and attraction and feeling powerful and just an extreme degree of agency. And it's in Paris with cheese and wine, nudity, young men, friends.
- [46:52]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
But you do have to still go on a dating app, which I still feel that sucks. Don't you wish that your life didn't include that?
- [47:00]
Glynis McNicol
It's funny because the first person I connect with in Paris versus Man was off a dating app. But I do think. I think dating apps serve a purpose. I think sometimes it puts your head in the game. Sometimes I actually think it helps you articulate to yourself what you want and exercise boundaries. Actually, I don't want to talk to you anymore, but I advocate strongly for boohaite apps. I'm like, you don't have to see anyone that you're talking to, but I do think the exercise of being on there in a certain head space, if that's what you want in your life, is actually pretty useful because then you're out in the world being like, oh, hello. Yes, that's true. As a woman, you just are receiving so much attention. And as you get older, culturally speaking, it's not like there's magazines out there being like, good for you, 50 year old. Don't worry about skincare. You look fantastic. But you get that. You get that right?
- [47:50]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
On the apps, you get people being like, I would bang you. I like you just the way you are. Yeah.
- [47:55]
Glynis McNicol
And then if that's what you want, you can have it. It's like, you could. That was sort of what I wanted. I don't know if discovery is the right word, but I guess to some extent that summer I was like, oh, I just said I wanted it. Now I have it. I'm like, oh, no one told me I could just have whatever I wanted at age 47. Like, this is fantastic.
- [48:11]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Right. And so since you wrote the book, I'm mostly here to enjoy myself. Have you mostly enjoyed yourself?
- [48:18]
Glynis McNicol
I mean, as much as real life allows. Right. I'm capturing their five weeks. I mean, I'm enjoying myself quite a lot right at the moment. But like, as everyone knows, after they've been alive for a certain amount of time, the trajectory of first, second, third act, happy ending in life, it's more like you go through periods where nothing's working in your favor and you're working too much and like, maybe you have ill family members and you don't see anybody, and then you go through phases where you're just like, oh, my God, I have just had weeks of just non stop enjoyment. And I think the thing is you just sort of recognize that neither of these things will last forever. I'm not permanently in a place of non stop cheese eating and nudity, but. But I do have, like, phases where that is the primary occupation. And I just sort of am like, who benefits from my feeling bad? And I'll tell you, Vogue subscriptions or the makeup counter or the cosmetic surgeons are the ones. I'm not making money off of feeling bad. If someone paid me to feel bad, I'd feel bad. If you would give me health benefits to feel bad all the time, I might consider it. But I don't feel like I'm not gonna feel bad. What do I have to feel bad about?
- [49:24]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We talked about both very tragic things and very uplifting things. So everybody should get a copy of this book. I'm mostly here to enjoy myself and we will talk soon. Thanks so much.
- [49:39]
Glynis McNicol
This is so much fun. Thank you.
- [49:47]
Advertisement Voice
That's it for Infamous. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your friends. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Natrobe. That's N A T R O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book, Blurred Lines, Rethinking Sex, Power and Consent Campus. See you next week.
- [50:26]
Glynis McNicol
Support is available 24. 7 with VRBoCare.
- [50:30]
Advertisement Voice
We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help.
- [50:34]
Podcast Host (possibly John or interviewer)
Because a great trip starts with the right support.