Why Do Influencers Want To Be Trad Wives?

Summary

Infamous Podcast Episode Summary: "Why Do Influencers Want To Be Trad Wives?"

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Hosts: Vanessa Grigoriadis, Natalie Robehmed, Monica Hesse
Produced by: Campside Media / Sony Music Entertainment

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Introduction

In the latest episode of Infamous, titled "Why Do Influencers Want To Be Trad Wives?", hosts Vanessa Grigoriadis, Natalie Robehmed, and guest Monica Hesse delve deep into the burgeoning trend of "trad wives" dominating social media platforms. This episode explores the multifaceted phenomenon, its historical roots, cultural implications, and the personal and societal impacts of embracing traditional domestic roles in the modern era.

Defining the “Trad Wife” Phenomenon

Vanessa opens the discussion by referencing a previous story about a traditional wife on the Main Line, highlighting how contemporary "trad wives" differ from historical counterparts. She notes, “If you're on social media, you know that trad wives have basically eaten the Internet for the past year or two” (02:00).

Natalie Robehmed connects the dots between the story of Cami Verney—a non-influencer crafting a fantasy home life—and the widespread online depiction of trad wives, suggesting that Cami’s presentation mirrors the curated domestic bliss seen across social media.

Expert Insights: Monica Hesse on Trad Wives

To provide a comprehensive understanding, Monica Hesse, a Washington Post columnist specializing in gender studies, joins the conversation. She offers a nuanced definition:

“A trad wife is somebody who embraces the lifestyle of being a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home partner, but not just the duties of that, the kind of patriarchal history of that… it’s a flashback to the 1950s, both in terms of the aesthetics and the clothing and also in terms of the belief system.” (02:29)

Hesse emphasizes that while many women choose to be stay-at-home parents for modern reasons, trad wives specifically adopt a retro aesthetic and a belief system that reverts to traditional gender roles.

Historical Context and Evolution

Hesse provides a historical backdrop, tracing the concept back to the 1950s when societal norms predominantly placed women in domestic roles. She explains the cyclical nature of societal attitudes toward women's roles:

“By the time we get to the 80s and 90s, you know, women, you can have it all. You can be a man in the boardroom and you can, you can still have this at home.” (14:56)

The hosts discuss how this led to movements advocating for women’s rights and the backlash that birthed contemporary trends like the trad wife movement.

Modern Social Media Influence

The podcast examines how platforms like TikTok propel the trad wife aesthetic. Hesse highlights the intersection of various cultural niches, such as organic living and traditional homemaking:

“You see a lot of trad wife videos, not only of them… but also, like, my children wanted golden Grahams for breakfast. So here's what I did.” (05:26)

Natalie notes the predominance of white women in these portrayals and the pipeline from being a "stay-at-home girlfriend" to adopting the trad wife identity.

Cultural Overlaps and Influencer Examples

Hesse discusses the popular Instagram account Ballerina Farm, showcasing a seemingly rustic lifestyle supported by significant financial resources:

“She's wandering around barefoot… the kids fed and ready for school, which is in a little schoolhouse we have here on the farm… her husband is the heir to a kind of enormous fortune.” (06:29)

This example underscores the performative aspect of the trad wife lifestyle, questioning the authenticity behind the curated content.

Financial and Personal Implications

The conversation shifts to the economic and personal ramifications of embracing trad wife roles. Hesse raises critical questions about financial dependency and the sustainability of such arrangements:

“Do you have your own money? I don't want to sound like a, like a recruiter robot, but like, have you thought about how you would go back to work if you needed to?” (17:40)

Natalie echoes this concern, emphasizing the importance of financial independence and the potential vulnerabilities if relationships falter.

Societal Structures vs. Individual Choices

Hesse argues that the trad wife trend is, in part, a reaction to broader societal issues such as burnout from trying to "have it all." She connects this to historical movements and the current disillusionment with conventional success narratives:

“It's just throwing our hands up in the air, throwing their hands up in the air and saying, I'm opting out. I'm just rejecting…” (14:26)

Natalie adds that the inability to balance professional and domestic spheres has led to a resurgence in traditional roles as a perceived "life hack."

Potential Solutions and Societal Change

When asked about solutions, Hesse advocates for societal and governmental support rather than relying solely on household arrangements:

“We need paid parental leave not just for women, but I think we need equal parental leave for men too, so that they can become invested and trained in the domestic arts…” (15:03)

This, she suggests, would foster more equitable partnerships and alleviate the pressures that drive women toward trad wife identities.

Personal Narratives and Emotional Impacts

The hosts explore the emotional toll and personal challenges faced by those adopting trad wife roles. Hesse shares insights from popular media, such as the reality show The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, highlighting the hidden financial independence of some trad wives:

“There's an uncomfortable stare exchanged among the women… they have actually made successful businesses out of being trad wives.” (09:19)

This reveals the complex interplay between appearance and reality in maintaining traditional roles.

Positive Perspectives and Relationship Building

Shifting to a more hopeful tone, Natalie and Hesse discuss the importance of love and partnership despite the challenges associated with traditional roles. They interview Eliza Ben Shalom, a renowned matchmaker, who emphasizes rebuilding and finding healthy relationships post-heartbreak.

“Before somebody can move on, they need to rebuild.” (27:22)

This segment underscores the value of supportive relationships and personal growth in overcoming past relational traumas.

Conclusion

The episode concludes by acknowledging the allure of the trad wife aesthetic while critically examining its feasibility and implications. The hosts advocate for a balanced approach, emphasizing the need for societal support systems to enable truly equitable and fulfilling partnerships.

Natalie wraps up with a poignant observation:

“We've gone to college, we've done all the things we're supposed to do, and yet we're still struggling. And I don't know that that allows me to have a little bit more empathy because I don't blame anyone.” (22:33)

This sentiment encapsulates the episode’s central theme: the search for balance and authenticity in an evolving societal landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “A trad wife is somebody who embraces the lifestyle of being a stay at home mom or a stay at home partner, but not just the duties of that, the kind of patriarchal history of that.” – Monica Hesse (02:29)

• “We can have it all. You can be a man in the boardroom and you can, you can still have this at home.” – Monica Hesse (14:56)

• “Do you have your own money? Have you thought about how you would go back to work if you needed to?” – Monica Hesse (17:40)

• “I'm opting out. I'm just rejecting, I'm rejecting this concept totally.” – Monica Hesse (14:26)

• “We've gone to college, we've done all the things we're supposed to do, and yet we're still struggling.” – Natalie Robehmed (22:33)

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This episode of Infamous skillfully navigates the complex terrain of traditional gender roles in contemporary society, offering listeners a blend of historical context, cultural analysis, and personal insights. By unpacking the allure and challenges of the trad wife phenomenon, the hosts encourage a deeper reflection on the evolving dynamics of modern relationships and societal expectations.

Transcript

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

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[Monica Hesse]

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[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Hello everyone. Vanessa Grigoriadis here and thank you so much for coming back to listen to Infamous over the last couple of weeks we told you a story about a wife on the Main Line and she was living in a very traditional marriage. She was a traditional wife. Now would you actually call her a trad wife? The way we understand trad wives today is like blonde, she's got those latissed lashes, beloved of baking. That is not necessarily Cami. But her story did put us in a mood to think about trad wives and that whole phenomenon. If you're on social media, you know that trad wives have basically eaten the Internet for the past year or two. So Natalie is going to talk to an expert to unpack what that's all about.

[Natalie]

So if you've been listening to our series from Kond to Cupid, you've been hearing a lot about one woman, Cami Verney, and the fantasy home life she was creating. Cammie wasn't an influencer, but in putting together this story, we couldn't help but think about how Cammie's presentation of domestic bliss mirrors something we've been seeing a lot of online the trad wife.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

This trad wife, I guess it's a Gen Z thing, is a self proclaimed traditional wife. I recommend getting ready, doing some makeup.

[Monica Hesse]

Putting on a cute outfit before you see your husband.

[Natalie]

But what exactly is the trad wife and where did it come from? To answer those questions, I'm talking to Monica Hesse, a columnist for the Washington Post who's written extensively about gender and trad wives. So today we are talking about trad wives. What is a trad wife?

[Monica Hesse]

Oh man. So you're starting with a question that seems like it should be so easy to answer and is so complex and is going to really depend on who you're talking to. So I'll give you how I think about it, which I think is a pretty typical way. So a trad wife is somebody who embraces the lifestyle of being a stay at home mom or a stay at home partner, but not just the duties of that, the kind of patriarchal history of that. So I know a lot of women who are stay at home moms who consider themselves modern or feminist, or they're just doing it because this is what works well for their family. Maybe they'll go back to work, maybe they won't. But trad wives in general are embracing the idea that being the caretaker of the home is really the woman's destiny. It's the woman's job. She wants to take care of her husband, she wants to take care of her house. And it's, it's done often with a particularly retro aesthetic. So it's a flashback to the 1950s, both in terms of, of the aesthetics and the clothing and also in terms of the belief system. And, you know, and I say that the 1950s. I should have just said the 50s because you see a lot of prairie dress lifestyle. Sometimes it feels like the 1850s, but regardless, it's being a stay at home mom or partner and pairing that with a set of particular beliefs about why you're doing that.

[Natalie]

And we should talk a little bit about. You already referenced the aesthetic, but typically when I've seen videos like this on my TikTok, it's nearly always a white woman. And sometimes, as you said, referencing kind of a 1950s aesthetic, or at least some sort of dress, floral dress, maybe a prairie dress. And yeah, espousing the benefits of this lifestyle. And it's not just a wife. There's kind of a stay at home girlfriend was a thing I was seeing on TikTok for a while. And there's kind of a stay at home girlfriend to trad wife pipeline. It seems.

[Monica Hesse]

What's really fascinating is when different cultural niches start to overlap with each other. And what I think is a particularly interesting overlap with the tradwife movement is the make America healthy again, sort of crunchy granola moms who really supported RFK and who, you know, fear vaccines and who fear additives and who are really about organic health. And so you'll see, like, you'll see a lot of trad wife videos, not only of them. Here we are on our farm getting our own eggs, or here I am homeschooling my children. But also, like, my children wanted golden Grahams for breakfast. So here's what I did. And then the video will be them, like making a breakfast cereal entirely from scratch.

[Natalie]

I'm so glad you brought that up because I'm specifically thinking of Nara.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

When I asked my toddlers what they.

[Monica Hesse]

Wanted for lunch, they both wanted a grilled cheese. So that's exactly what I got started on. I got started by making my bread. This is a really simple no knead recipe.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

You put all of your dry and.

[Monica Hesse]

Wet ingredients into a bowl, give it.

[Natalie]

A mix, and let it rise for.

[Monica Hesse]

Two hours, which gives me enough time.

[Natalie]

To start making my cheese. I don't know whether it's a parody or. Or it's definitely seemed to have moved into parody, at least.

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah, she's aware. She. She knows. She.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

If.

[Monica Hesse]

If it wasn't a parody in the beginning, she's aware now.

[Natalie]

Right. But it's exactly as you're saying. It's this kind of intersection of the hyper, local, organic, ethical consumer who's really health and no additives and whatever. Whatever. And then also doing that as a. As a parody of a. Of a tradwife. But, I mean, I also think about Ballerina Farm and the way that kind of this intersects with, like, as you've already mentioned, like, religious values. Can you talk about Ballerina Farm a little bit?

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah. So Ballerina Farm is a wildly popular Instagram account. And I get it. I get why. Because I'm served up these videos regularly. You can start to see the buttermilk separate from the butterfat. We aren't done having babies.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

We are excited for our new farm store to open.

[Monica Hesse]

The proprietary of the content is a formally trained ballet dancer who moved out west to be with her husband and their many beautiful children on a farm. And their videos are all about this very quote, unquote, simple back to nature life that. That she's decided to live. She's left the city. She lives in this rustic household which is full of these, like, abundant homemade foods. Her children are beautiful. She's wandering around barefoot. I mean, it really is like Laura Ingalls Wilder cosplay in terms of it. Its aesthetic. We get the kids fed and ready for school, which is in a little schoolhouse we have here on the farm. What's particularly interesting about her is something that might be true of a lot of influencers, but she's just been researched and studied so much that we know this with some certainty. Her husband is the heir to a kind of enormous fortune. And so while they're living this lifestyle that looks very rustic and basic and get back to the basics, she's cooking on a retro stove that costs $40,000. And, you know, they're actually dedicating quite a bit of resources and money to living this style that looks very simple. And to me, that's another thing that's fascinating about this lifestyle is that I'm always wondering how much of this is a performance, how much of this is how you're living authentically, and how much of this is an act that you're putting on for. For your many followers. Right?

[Natalie]

Absolutely. I mean, that's a big thing that's hidden within it is, is the money of it all. I think it's worth talking about how money is functioning in these sorts of relationships generally. But as you just referenced with Ballerina Farm, like Claus is an unspoken aspect of this. And you wrote this piece for Washington Post called Tribe Wives, Stay at Home, Girlfriends and the Dream of Feminine Leisure. And I really, really loved that piece because it also, I thought, took like a very empathetic perspective rather than just making fun or dismissing trad wives. But for me, that's. So where this is coming from. It's this desire to be part of like a leisure class, which is actually only possible if you are. Are of a certain class.

[Monica Hesse]

You know, I'm going to answer that in a roundabout way, please, by telling you my favorite scene from the reality show the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Please.

[Natalie]

I'm so glad you brought that up.

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah. Which. Which has just premiered its second season. But last year in its first season, there was a fascinating scene where all of these Mormon women who are TikTok influencers, who call themselves Mom Talk, they're all, they're all quote unquote, stay at home moms who are Mormon and who espouse this Mormon lifestyle and a lot of the aesthetics we've been discussing and consider themselves devout Mormons and socially conservatives and their husbands ahead of their households. And then there's this moment where one of the women asks the others, who is the high earner in your family? And there is a uncomfortable stare exchanged among the women. And then slowly, one after one, they all start to raise their hands because what's happened is that they have actually made successful businesses out of being trad wives. Like, they have sold the concept of staying home so well that they're making lots of money from it and in some ways out earning their husbands. But they still, because of their beliefs, because of their social status and the way that they present, have to present a facade in which they are still the help meets, they are still the subservient wives to their husbands. And this is really head spinning because what it sort of reveals is how much this is a performance and it Also just gets at the question of women's work generally, what is it worth? If we were paying it equally, what would it look like and what would an equal partnership look like? So you see this sort of really interesting journey where I think a lot of women become enamored of the tradwife lifestyle because it looks relaxing and it looks peaceful and it looks like I can finally have enough time to have a clean house and homemade meals and not be stressed and get enough sleep and get to the gym. And the only way that I can do this is by embracing the tradwife lifestyle, which, as you point out, is a position of privilege to be in. And then if you get really good at that, you start making your own money. So it's just, it's a really fascinating ouroboros of what this life cycle means, what the money inside it means, and.

[Natalie]

What it makes me think about is actually whether this is a reaction to what's going on in the outer world. Like how much is the trad wife aesthetic and trend on social media. Women attempting to reclaim power in the domestic sphere while their power is being taken away in other spheres systematically.

[Monica Hesse]

You know, I think that that's part of it, and I don't think that that's actually a new concept. When I think back to the 1950s, like the real 1950s, the first time around, you had a lot of women who were well educated, perhaps had been to college, perhaps had met their husbands there and then didn't work after they married and had kids, because that was the expectation. And for a long time, society ran on the invisible labor of these incredibly smart stay at home moms, because those were the ones who were available to volunteer. They were able to organize food drives, they were able to volunteer for, you know, class field trips. And that's where we get a lot of our visions of the nuclear suburban American family. And then there's a backlash to that. And the backlash comes in the form of the feminine mystique and Gloria steinem in the 1960s and 70s and women wondering, can I have more? Should I have more? I want more. What does that look like? So there's this period of consciousness raising and questioning and what is the status quo that we're embracing? By the time we get to the 80s and 90s, what we're seeing is, you know, women, you can have it all. You can be a man in the boardroom and you can, you can still have this at home. And I think that's the lifestyle that people were. That's the story that People were trying to sell for a while that they were trying to invest in. And then that led to that famous Anne Marie Slaughter article in the Atlantic about whether women could have it all. And her article is basically saying, that's bs. I'm like, it is, it is impossible. I'm exhausted all of the time. Somehow I'm working full time outside the home. And studies have shown us I'm still responsible for everything happening inside the home. So Instead of working 40 hours a week, I'm working 500 hours a week and I'm burned out. And I think that that in a way, what we see of some social media influencers and people interested in this lifestyle is just a kind of throwing our hands up in the air, throwing their hands up in the air and saying, I'm opting out. I'm just rejecting, I'm rejecting this concept totally.

[Natalie]

And it, you know, it makes sense to me. Like if I think about the last 10ish years, we had lean in, we had kind of the idea of the girl boss, which was something I was slightly obsessed with. And I think we're at a point of disillusionment with that because as you said, it's not that adding on more work meant that other work in the domestic sphere went away. It just meant that you were doing it all and not having it all.

[Misha Brown]

Right.

[Natalie]

And I guess my question is like, what's the answer? What's the solution to this?

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah, I mean, I'm of the belief that this is not a solution that can happen only in households. This is a solution that has to happen in society at large and with the help of government policies and industry policies. I think that we need paid parental leave not just for women, but I think we need equal parental leave for men too, so that they can become invested and trained in the domestic arts and not have situations where women are just saying, oh, well, I'll just do it myself, because he doesn't know how to. So I think that part of that is a solution that you can really only make via the ballot box, via the people that you're electing, and via the things that are important to them and the things that they're actually interested in doing. For families.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

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[Natalie]

Let's also now take a second and turn to the personal implications of this on a micro level. What happens if the trad wife goes wrong? What are the financial implications of this setup or arrangement if, if it doesn't work out?

[Monica Hesse]

So first of all, I want to go back to what I started saying in the beginning, which is I think that it is possible to see equal partnerships in households where there's a stay at home partner, man or woman. I see those relationships in my own life where yes, right now the mom isn't working, but her husband completely respects her as an equal partner. They are still making decisions together. They understand that their work is equal and just happening in separate spheres. So, you know, it doesn't have to go badly. But I think that where you run into problems is where men assume the power that women have willingly ceded. And if their marriage breaks up, even if the marriage is great, but still the husband loses his job or something, what's the backup plan? Do you have your own money? I don't want to sound like a, like a recruiter robot, but like, have you thought about how you would go back to work if you needed to? And a lot of this also, also just comes back to do you trust your partner? Do you trust the person that you're with to have your back if things go sideways? Or are you just going to be, you know, stuck in the kitchen making homemade cereal because he said that the finances are his responsibility.

[Natalie]

Yeah, I'm just having a moment where I'm like, emotionally, I can't believe that we're having to reiterate the importance of having your own money and your own way of making money and having if. Because in this society, money is. Is power when it wasn't that long ago that we got to have credit cards. But I don't want to be attacking women. I understand that it's a reaction to the time that we're in, but I'm just having a sort of like, oh, my God, like, Mr. Crapstream.

[Monica Hesse]

True. And when I. When I write about this issue, the. The reader feedback that I get that's the most frustrated is older women who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, who are basically saying, this is what we fought for for you guys. Like, why are you throwing it away? And I think that. That what a lot of it comes down to is that people aren't happy now. And so they're looking for these solutions that require a time machine to go back rather than trying to figure out the solutions. You know, that would mean going forward.

[Natalie]

Yeah, you. You had this wonderful phrase. I just want to read the sentence. So the concept of romantic relationships as the ultimate life hack and the resigned idea that the only way to move forward is by moving backwards. And I think that's such great framing because we have been in the era of the life hack and the. And eternal optimization. And so to view marriage and a relationship as a life hack rather than like, a contract that you might be being entered into so you get sold off from your father and onto another man is, like, very interesting to me.

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah, I think that. I mean, it's fascinating to me when you read especially young women who are aspiring to this, who see it as, like, a pathway to an easier lifestyle. Just the idea that, like, I don't want to work myself to the bone. I want to live a life that feels easy. And, you know, my gosh, I want that, too. My TikTok feed is like, 50% Trad Wives. I watch Ballerina Farm content, and I'm like, I, too, want to put up a movie screen and my Prairie House, and we'll all go out in our pajamas and, you know, all of this. And then I think in real life, that would drive me crazy, but, man, is it beautiful to look at on screen.

[Natalie]

You know, I'm a millennial, and I have many friends who've graduated from Ivy League schools, who have masters, who can't find a job, who can't afford rent. And, you know, in a group chat I was in recently, one of my friends described herself as an aspiring trad wife, and she's incredibly smart and has a law degree. And it's. It's because this is my opinion, I think that it's because the traditional ways of succeeding don't seem to be there anymore. We've gone to college, we've done all the things we're supposed to do, and yet we're still struggling. And I don't know that that allows me to have a little bit more empathy because I don't blame anyone. Like, we've been sold a bill of goods. That doesn't really seem to be what it said on the label, you know?

[Monica Hesse]

Yeah. And. And I think that it is completely understandable and also completely dispiriting that we think that we have to life hack this by ourselves or that people would say, the only way I can do this is via a romantic relationship rather than we can do this societally. We can figure this out. It can get better. There are ways that it can get better.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

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[Misha Brown]

This is infamous from Campside Media.

[Natalie]

So despite the potential traps of being a trad wife, I really do believe in love and partnership, even though it's really hard to find. So to wrap up Cami's story, and to end on a positive note, we talked to the matchmaker she works with about religious matchmaking. Her name is Eliza Ben Shalom and she's actually kind of famous. You might have seen her on the Netflix show Jewish Matchmaking. Our producer Lily, talked to Elisa about how to find true love.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

When did you first meet Cami?

[Misha Brown]

My husband's best friend said, oh, I have somebody. She's amazing and I think she wants to be a matchmaker. It was like, okay, so it's My husband's best friend. Like, I'll talk to her. So we started to talk all about matchmaking and what makes a healthy relationship. And Cammie came from a place of understanding what makes a healthy relationship, but also what is really detrimental in a relationship. And she has it from firsthand experience. It sounded to me like she was completely blindsided. And then all of a sudden, when she figured it out, she just came to a place of acceptance, figured it out, figured out what to do, and was able to, I'll call it gracefully or as gracefully as possible, move on with her life. And when she came to that place, she, for me, I could see that she just had this passion that she just wanted to help other people do the same thing.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Can you talk a little bit about what Cami's doing now?

[Misha Brown]

Cammie has been successfully coaching and matchmaking singles with our organization, and she is a natural. It's not, you know, some people, you could fall in love with matchmaking, but if you don't have a knack for it, like, it's nice that you like it, but it might not be good for you. She loves it, and she is so good at it. Such an organic and natural fit. It's like, oh, my gosh, how come you only came to this now? Like, how come we didn't catch you.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

30 years ago in matchmaking? It seems like so much a profession about, like, giving and, like, wanting other people to have a happy ending. But something that's interesting to me is Cammie had this kind of extreme example of someone, you know, she loved turning out, like, not to be who they said they were, really betraying her trust in a major way. But I think that so many of us have experiences of, like, having our trust betrayed. It might not be as extreme or as in the newspapers as what happened to Cammie, but it's still hurtful, and it makes it difficult to go out and try to find love. In this case, how do you navigate that with clients who are maybe, like, a little scared to get back into the dating world because of something like this?

[Misha Brown]

I think that heartbreak is very normal, and we see it so often that I created a program that's called Dating Detox. It is something that everybody can relate to, from the most extreme examples, like cammies, to even the most minor, where, like, I just had a heartbreak. I thought that this was going to be my forever person. And they didn't agree. They didn't think it was going to be the same way. It doesn't take an extreme example to have a Broken heart. And before somebody can move on, they need to rebuild.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Part of Cami and Josh's story is that, you know, they're in a very wealthy community. Is there a difference in matchmaking when you start talking about very wealthy clients.

[Misha Brown]

In very wealthy circles, clients are often financially motivated and concerned. So we talk a lot about things like a prenup, about family or inheritance, and if they're coming together, how that would work. With one of the couples that I worked with, the wife signed a prenup that basically said, the business is his, everything is his. Even moving forward, doesn't matter how many years you're together, you. If you separate, you will never get anything that exists from this family business. It was like, sign this or don't marry me that. Those were the two options. She did get married. Thank God they're happily married. But often with financials comes a lot of lawyers and a lot of paperwork and a lot of concern that somebody's after them for the wrong reasons.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So I'm curious too about in the US if you work with a lot of clients who are first generation immigrants and if that changes how you dive into the dating pool.

[Misha Brown]

I find that first generation immigrants in the US Are more marriage minded. They usually grew up more traditional. Even if they're secular, they still have a traditional aspect to them and their families. And so there's often a stronger sense of, I need to get married, I want to get married, and I want to make it happen now. And often the timeline is shorter, like longer than the religious couples, but shorter than the secular couples, and they're more motivated to make something happen at a quicker pace. Culturally, singles from around the world are traditional. The US Itself is not very traditional. There's just a melting pot of people. There's a lot of secularism, and so the traditions were lost, and people are just finding their own way and figuring it out and just taking time to do that.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

And do you think being less traditional makes it harder, or is it. There's pros and cons, both routes that you go down.

[Misha Brown]

I think being less traditional gives less structure to the desire of what I want. When you are traditional, you have certain values that have been passed down from generation to generation, and you have a little bit more of a clear vision of what makes sense for you. When a person doesn't have tradition, then the question is, well, what's important to me? The entire world is open to you, so how do you narrow it down and say this type of a person with these type of values would be appropriate? To me because really, anything could go. There's there's no limiting factors. You have to create those limiting factors. And I think creating limiting factors can sometimes be a challenge in figuring out who am I, who will I be, what do I want, and how is that going to look when we don't have any roots from our history to carry us to forward? I think it presents more challenges.

[Natalie]

That's it for this episode and for our series on Cami Verney. Thank you for listening. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me Natrobe. That's N A T R O B E. And if you want to support Vanessa's work, you can buy her book, blurred Lines, Rethinking Set, Sex, Power and Consent on Campus. See you next week.