Infinite Loops Episode 287: Elle Griffin — Rethinking Ownership and the Future of Work
Host: Jim O’Shaughnessy
Guest: Elle Griffin
Date: October 23, 2025
Overview
This engaging episode features Elle Griffin—writer, editor, and creator of The Elysian newsletter—who discusses her pioneering ideas on transforming capitalism through broad-based ownership. The conversation explores alternative models for equity distribution, lessons from history, the role of imagination in societal progress, and why we need new structures to solve wealth inequality and reboot the middle class for the future of work. The discussion is peppered with references to utopian fiction, practical policy proposals, behavioral psychology, and even the plot of Elle’s own gothic novel.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Case for Broad-Based Ownership
[04:17]
- Elle’s Thesis: The American middle class flourished when people owned not just salaries but assets, notably post-WWII with the GI Bill (education and homeownership).
- Current Problem: Now, asset (especially stock) ownership is excessively concentrated—"93% of stocks are owned by the top 1%."
- The Fix: "We need another GI Bill, but this time not for homeownership, but for stock ownership." (Elle, [04:56])
- Personal Experiment: Elle is writing a book live, crowdfunded by readers, exploring how broad-based equity can be implemented.
Comparison with Existing Models: ESOPs & RSUs
[07:45] – [13:04]
- ESOPs: Valuable but limited in scope and scalability; mostly benefit stable, profitable companies and are tied to retirement.
- RSUs in Tech: Unlocked wealth for a few, but “not very equitable”—founders and investors get the bulk; employees get a thin slice.
- Elle’s Critique: “Most companies could not do [ESOP], and...it comes in the form of a retirement plan, which is hindering wealth equality…People should be able to use that wealth immediately.” ([08:29])
- Alternative Approaches:
- Make equity awards more equitable by tying them to salary.
- Enable regular liquidity events, not just rare exits.
- Explore synthetic stock, profit-sharing, and secondary markets for private equity.
Reimagining the Founder’s Exit & Tax Policy
[14:44] – [17:06]
- "Selling to employees becomes a more default option than selling to PE [private equity]…Tax incentives could make that very, very likely."
- Examples from Canada and England: Founders selling to employees pay no capital gains tax, incentivizing employee ownership.
- Bipartisan support in Congress stems partly from desire to keep American companies American-owned.
Barriers & Legislative Pathways
[18:58] – [29:04]
- Barriers:
- ESOPs are cumbersome—require companies to repurchase stock, have heavy regulatory/tax load, and are viable only for certain sizes/types.
- Founders' risk/reward imbalance: High risk at founding, but most reward comes only far downstream.
- New Structures Needed:
- Employee Ownership Trusts (more flexible, less regulatory headache)
- State-level initiatives (e.g., Colorado)
- Need for a catalytic example to spark a larger shift, as with Fairchild Semiconductor for Silicon Valley or Mondragon in Spain.
Human Nature, Risk, and Equity
[33:58] – [41:33]
- Most people are risk averse; only ~10% naturally seek outsized risk.
- Offers to swap salary for equity rarely attract employees; suggests structural, not merely cultural, impediments.
- "Founders would do it even without the carrot...they want to create something...If they make a little bit less money they’re not going to not do it." (Elle, [39:46])
Designing for the Future: AI, UBI, and Ownership
[44:32] – [46:46]
- AI will amplify wealth inequality if its benefits accrue only to "owners."
- Elle’s Vision: An ownership society where dividends replace salaries as automation increases; work hours fall, but everyone has a stake.
- Risks if we fail: “The people who own AI right now just own those companies and none of us will work for them.” ([46:46])
Utopian Thinking vs. Human Nature
[49:10] – [52:59]
- Elle evokes utopian fiction, arguing we need new, experimental models—"not going back to Marxism, not pure socialism."
- Outlines a state-based baby bond/ownership structure—children in a state receive index funds at birth and benefit from local economic growth.
Symbol Manipulators and Economic Shifts
[57:32] – [61:56]
- Jim observes that the richest people are increasingly “symbol manipulators” (tech entrepreneurs, financiers) rather than titans of physical industry.
- Elle questions whether this “symbol manipulation” truly justifies such disparities or whether the system needs more inclusive participation.
- Thoughtful discussion of the difficulty in top-down assessments of “deservingness” and true value in the economy.
The Need for Practical Experiments and Imagination
[82:48] – [87:23]
- Elle: What’s lacking is not ideas but “lack of belief, overall lack of imagination.”
- “We need our writers to be thinkers again, not just journalists.” ([84:26])
- Elle organizes prompt-based collective writing projects—exploring city-states, utopian governance, and more, as a way of spurring public imagination and discourse.
Practical Steps for Founders
[92:31] – [94:45]
- Step 1: “First just imagine that anything is possible. The company you work at doesn’t have to be structured the way that it’s structured.”
- Encourage leaders to steelman (construct strong arguments against) their priors and to explore what actually could work.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On tested self-critique:
“I upload my entire essays to ChatGPT and [tell it] ‘tell me what all the commenters are going to say about this’—and it’ll nitpick everything…I love it.”
—Elle ([03:16]) -
On the core wealth gap:
“As the stock market is growing…the vast majority of people are just missing out on that wealth gain…So the obvious answer is create more owners of that equity.”
—Elle ([04:56]) -
On the limits of ESOPs:
“If we converted 100% of every possible ESOPpable company, that would create $2 trillion for workers…still less than 10% of the economy.”
—Elle ([08:29]) -
On creating new structures:
"If we want to make this broad-based, then we have to create other structures that marry these worlds together to create better stock options for the future."
—Elle ([10:19]) -
On market incentives:
“Tax incentives could make [employee buyouts] very, very likely…If you eventually want to exit, I think a lot of founders would happily not sell to PE…So why not sell to your employees? You still get your big cash out…”
—Elle ([14:44]) -
On the need for new ownership models:
“We need new structures more than anything else.”
—Elle ([21:12]) -
On the virtue of experimentation:
“We have to try…It’s worth trying every possible idea…Because without them, we’re just in a stupor just watching what’s happening.”
—Elle ([82:48]) -
On incentivizing ownership exits:
“Imagine that anything is possible…wherever you are…think: how can we create more opportunities for ownership?”
—Elle ([92:31]) -
The "ownership czar" policies:
- Tax-free sales of companies to employees
- Make ESOPs more flexible and not just retirement accounts
- (Tentatively) First right of refusal for employees before selling company
—Elle ([31:34])
-
Two beliefs to Incept into the world:
“Solidarity—everyone’s important, not just you. And meliorism—the world can be made better through human effort.”
—Elle ([96:31])
Timestamps of Important Segments
- [04:17] – Introduction to Elle’s thesis: Broad-based ownership, GI Bill for stocks
- [07:45] – Compare/contrast: ESOPs, RSUs, and limitations
- [14:44] – Making founder exits to employees the default—policy ideas
- [18:58] – Regulatory/legal barriers to employee ownership
- [23:19] – How to get new ownership structures through legislation
- [29:04] – Examples: Ford, altruism, co-ops in the US vs. Europe
- [33:58] – Human nature, risk appetite, and employee equity
- [44:32] – The coming AI era and the urgency for new ownership paradigms
- [49:10] – Utopian/experimental thinking: The case for state-level portfolios, baby bonds
- [57:32] – The new symbol manipulators vs. industrialists
- [82:48] – Imagination deficit—why writers need to propose new societal models
- [92:31] – Practical steps for founders: Steelman priors, imagine new structures
- [96:31] – If you could Incept humanity: Solidarity and meliorism
Tone and Style
The episode is lively, rigorous, philosophically ambitious, and idea-rich, combining playfulness (“Explain it to me like I’m a golden retriever”) with a deepening sense of urgency about structural inequities and the impending impacts of AI and globalization.
For Further Engagement
- Elle Griffin’s Substack: elysian.press
- Infinite Loops podcast and transcript archive: newsletter.osv.llc
This summary captures the ambitious interplay of economic history, policy design, human psychology, and future-casting that makes this one of Infinite Loops’ must-listen episodes for anyone interested in capitalism’s next act.