John Wang - The Man Who Built The Queens Night Market (Ep. 299)

Summary

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Infinite Loops — Ep. 299

John Wang: The Man Who Built The Queens Night Market

Host: Jim O’Shaughnessy
Guest: John Wang
Date: January 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Infinite Loops features John Wang, founder of the Queens Night Market, in conversation with host Jim O’Shaughnessy. Wang shares his journey from burned-out corporate lawyer to launching what has become one of New York City’s most joyful and inclusive civic projects. The conversation explores Wang’s unconventional path, the genesis and guiding principles of the Night Market, entrepreneurship and risk, the market’s impact, and the challenges and triumphs of building a beloved community institution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

John’s Origin Story and Turning Point

• Early Education & Background
  • Wang grew up in Texas; was a “terrible high school student” and went to University of Michigan to get far from home.
  • Triple majored, then attended Yale Law School and earned a joint MBA, “left with a bunch of student debt” [01:57].
• The Unhappy Attorney
  • Chose corporate law “to pay off my loans” but never saw it as a long-term career.
  • “I counted down the days until I could pay off my loans and then figure out [what was next]. I’m sort of doomed to not be satisfied, I think.” [06:05 — John Wang]

Genesis of the Queens Night Market

• The ‘Aha’ Moment
  • Recalled childhood nights in Taiwan’s night markets as formative, fun, and community-focused experiences [06:38].
  • After several failed attempts to partner on start-ups and consulting ventures, Wang decided:

    “Why don’t I just start New York’s first night market?... That could impact New York City forever and ever.” [07:20]

  • Uniquely, the goal was to make something that represents New York’s diversity and affordability (“an FU to New York”), with a price cap on all food.

Market Structure: Principles & Practices

• Core Values
  1. Maximal Representation: Showcase as many New York-origin countries as possible via vendor diversity.
  2. Affordability: Enforced a price cap on food—$5 at launch, now $6.
• Success by Multiple Definitions
  • “Our success stories don’t all look like traditional business wins. For some, it’s family time under the tent.” [16:00 — John Wang]
  • Spawned 500+ small businesses, though Wang reminds: “You should never start a small business. Terrible idea... But for people with a real Plan B, like law grads—they have the privilege of taking risks.” [10:50]

The Night Market Experience

• Physical Layout & Visitor Experience [17:06]
  • 300,000–400,000 sq. ft. of blue tents (food) and orange tents (art/merchandise), 105–110 vendors nightly.
  • Curated for both diversity and novelty:

    “We’ve represented like, 103 countries through their food.” [18:48]

  • Vendors must sell what they personally grew up eating —a safeguard against inauthentic concepts and trend-following.

Vendor Pathways: Challenges & Guidance

• Seeing Success and Learning From Failure [13:33–16:57]
  • Some vendors use the Market to build family memories; others have scaled into regional chains.
  • The cost of failure is low (“make it affordable to lose”), making the market a testbed for entrepreneurship.
• Top Advice
  • “Please, at least smile and make eye contact with people that walk past you… It’s amazing how many small businesses don’t.” [26:56]
  • The steep learning curve is often eased by camaraderie and cross-cultural support among vendors [29:41].
  • Marketing and clear signage often determine who thrives—sometimes “just hanging those Chinatown ducks got a vendor a constant line for 10 years.” [22:10]

Market Evolution & Curation

• Food and Merchandise
  • Retail items must be locally made or curated—less strict on cultural ties than for food.
  • Merchandise has shifted from “cultural representation” to a balance between representativeness and what sells (art, ceramics, plushies, anime toys) [33:31].
• Entertainment & Community [36:47]
  • Live performances from diverse artists; initially unpaid, now receive small stipends and tips.
  • The market radiates a “calm joy” and attracts a demographic “cross-section of New York City”—mirroring the city’s ethnic make-up closely [51:49].
• Business Model: Intentionally Flawed
  • Wang never profits from vendor fees—vendor fees only cover operating expenses; sponsorships or bar operations cover the rest.
  • “It’s terrible. It’s like the worst idea ever, to be honest… but at least I’ve forced my own hand.” [39:27]

Impact & Reputation

• Recognition and Role in NYC
  • Helped put Queens “on the map,” gained international accolades as a top world market (Lonely Planet, Financial Times) [47:50].
  • Notable feedback:

    “Probably once a week, someone writes, ‘Queens Night Market is the best part about New York City.’” [51:17]

  • The market fosters intergenerational, cross-cultural connections and has become a gathering place for the city’s rich diversity.
• Turnover and Expansion [55:48]
  • Aims for ~50% vendor turnover to keep things fresh, but economic shifts influence this.
  • Wang is transparent about his wish for the market to potentially exist “outside of” his stewardship—offering even to sell it to NYC Parks for $1 [64:14].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I always knew I was not going to be a lawyer… Why don’t I just start New York’s first night market?”
  — John Wang, [00:00]
• “If you can persist through so many nos and so many people telling you not to do it, there’s something to be said about that.”
  — John Wang, [13:33]
• “There’s no magic behind spurring micro-businesses: just make it affordable to lose.”
  — John Wang, [14:03]
• “It’s not about authenticity. If you grew up eating it, it has a tradition.”
  — John Wang, [58:40]
• “For eight hours a week, [New Yorkers] are just in perfect harmony.”
  — John Wang, [47:50]
• “Be nice. That would be the first thing I’d say as emperor of the world… Manners matter.”
  — John Wang, [77:54]
• “I would have had someone else start it. Because I do think it should exist.”
  — John Wang, [64:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• John’s Origin Story – [01:28–06:05]
• Night Market Genesis – [06:34–10:34]
• Entrepreneurship and Risk – [10:34–13:33]
• Vendor Success/Failure Stories – [13:33–16:57]
• Walking into the Market (Tour) – [17:06–19:03]
• Vendor Curation Process – [19:08–22:10]
• Marketing and Vendor Lessons – [22:10–27:58]
• Vendor Camaraderie & Learning Curve – [29:41]
• Impact on Small Business Growth – [32:31–33:17]
• Merchandise & Entertainment – [33:31–39:01]
• Business Model & Sponsorships – [39:27–47:50]
• Community Impact and Affordability – [47:50–53:44]
• Vendor Turnover and Market Evolution – [55:48–58:10]
• Cultural Authenticity vs. Tradition – [58:10–61:45]
• Health Codes & Operations – [61:45–63:03]
• Reflections & Five-Year Outlook – [64:14–70:12]
• Legacy, Stewardship, and NYC Politics – [70:12–72:25]
• Personal Reflections on Raising Family in NYC – [72:35–76:00]
• Final Question: Emperor of the World – [77:07–79:44]

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Closing Reflections

John Wang’s unconventional approach—eschewing profit, centering inclusion and affordability, and embracing transparency—has made the Queens Night Market a model for joyful, community-driven placemaking. His humility and wit, combined with a clear-eyed look at entrepreneurship, risk, and public good, offer both inspiration and practical insights for anyone seeking to spark real connection in a challenging urban landscape.

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Transcript

[A]

So I figured I'd bite the bullet, become a corporate lawyer for a couple years and then, then figure out what I wanted to do. I always knew I was not going to be a lawyer. Why don't I just start New York's first night market? I fell asleep that night and I woke up like, well, that sounds like something I could do that would, could impact New York City forever and ever. And so that day I decided I would spend a year trying to do that. At the time there was two competing night markets in Vancouver and then like a once a year night market in la. And that was as far as I could tell, that was all that existed in North America. And in like 11 years, somehow the Financial Times and us as a top 10 market in the entire world.

[B]

Welcome back to Infinite Loops. I'm Jim o'. Shaughnessy. Today's guest is John Wang, the founder of Queens Night Market, one of the most joyful civic hacks in New York City. John was a Yale trained lawyer, burned out, walked away from the clean high status track and decided to build something weirdly ambitious. Please enjoy my conversation with John Wang. John Wang, founder of of the Queens Night Market Welcome. I am so taken by your story and I want to start at the beginning because you made a huge career decision, right? You were Yale trained lawyer, on the fast track and then you were kind of like, this is not working for me. Welcome.

[A]

Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. So you want me to go tell.

[B]

You I want your superhero origins story.

[A]

Origin story well, born and raised in Texas, wanted to leave. I was not a very particularly good high school student, so I wanted to but which meant I couldn't go to the good local schools. Utah, Austin was sort of where everyone tends to go, but you have to be in your pretty high in your class. And I actually was just a kind of a terrible high school student. Never went to class. Decided I would go to the best school college that would take me as far away as possible from Texas. So I went to University of Michigan, spent four years there, graduated Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor. Yep.

[B]

Beautiful college town.

[A]

Yeah, not bad. I mean if you like college towns. Triple majored there and then finished up in four years, moved back to Texas, played poker and pool for a little while and then got into law school, went to Yale Law School. Then I was working for the dean of the business school. So joined the joint degree to the MBA as well and then left with a bunch of student debt. Was the sort of the big question or the big sort of looming cloud over me. And I figured I would. So I graduated during the recession and figured. Tried to figure out what the best way to pay off the student loans was because it was either investment bank or law firm. When I was graduating, the stories were, you know, people, investment bankers jumping out of the building because they only got, you know, $100,000 in bonuses. And so it's like, well, and then law firms at that time weren't able. I don't know if it's still true, but it was bad PR for them to fire anyone, so they just had to hold onto their entire staff. So I figured I'd bite the bullet, become a corporate lawyer for a couple years, and then figure out what I wanted to do once I hit up a student loan.

[B]

Let me stop you, because I have a couple of questions.

[A]

Please.

[B]

Something that I've noticed I have no empirical data for. So this is a vibe, right? But so many people who do really interesting, innovative, creative things were not great in high school. So what about your case? Were you just bored by it?

[A]

Maybe I am not a good student.

[B]

Sorry. Says the guy who's got a JD and an MBA from Yale.

[A]

But, I mean, there's a lot of background to that, right? So I'm probably a very good test taker. The reason I was not a good student in high school is because I didn't ever go to class. And there are, like, lots of attendance requirements and that kind of thing. I think if you gave me a test, I'd probably do pretty well. You know, I can't tell you whether it's boredom or just not liking school. But also, like, when I went to college, despite having, you know, having three majors, I also never went to class.

[B]

We share that.

[A]

Okay, good. Well, good. And I actually went out of my way to figure out how to escape the attendance requirements. And so much so that I would. It became a thing that I would go into a class and propose to professor. I would say, I know you have attendance requirement. I'll make a deal with you. I'll take all your tests. If I get an A, you waive the attendance requirement. If I get anything less than A, you can do whatever you want with the attendance requirement. And surprisingly, a lot of them said, okay, that's a weird proposition, but sure, go ahead. And that's how I ended up.

[B]

And what was it that made you not want to go to class?

[A]

I don't know to this day. Like, if you tried to stick me in a classroom, I'd probably freak out. I get very jittery I get, you know, it's not claustrophobia. I don't know, maybe it's some sort of like deep anti, you know, anti authoritarianism. I don't know what it is. Like, it is like, I knew that.

[B]

I was gonna love you because like the. I try to avoid all of the insane, crazy political debates. But what I will always go with is I am fiercely anti authoritarian.

[A]

Yeah. There's this funny story and I was in a seminar at law school and they had. It was only like one day a month or something, so you had to go. And I had a friend who was beside me and I remember you could use your laptops and I was like googling Nintendo games that you'd play. And you know, I started playing this old Nintendo game, but it got started to get really into it. There's only six people in the class or something like that. And so I'm sitting next to my friend and I'm just, you know, it's three hour seminar, but at some point I'm just so involved in my game and I'm like clacking loudly and my friend just starts poking me like, john, John, John, stop. And I look up, the entire class has stopped and everyone's staring at me because I'm just like jamming all these buttons. And everyone like apparently been like quiet for like three minutes. Everyone's just staring at me, wondering what I'm doing and how can someone take notes so, so vehemently taking notes. But it was actually just playing like a, like a fighting game, I think it was like, like, oh my God, I was so embarrassed. My friend was embarrassed. And like, I think they took a coffee break after, like after that when.

[B]

You took the corporate legal job that was. You were looking at that as a gig. You, you, you weren't going to make that your career for sure.

[A]

No, like I counted down the days until I could pay off my loans and, and then figure out I'm sort of doomed to not be satisfied, I think. So I'm not sure there's a dream job out there for me other than pure retirement, whatever that means. But yeah, it was definitely counting down the days. And I don't mean that like I'm not a miserable person, but I knew it was temporary.

[B]

And then what was the inspiration for the night market?

[A]

A couple of things. So just. Why? Night market was definitely childhood summers in Taiwan that, you know, each city has a bajillion night markets. They're all super fun. And I remember every summer when I would go, all I wanted to do every single night was force my family to take me because they're super fun. These fun games, the food and all this stuff. My lawyer days. And shortly thereafter, I was still traveling a bit and, you know, I found myself always wanting to either go to the local markets or the local night markets, like the, anywhere I went. That's like all I really care to do. And my wife is probably displeased that I'm not a museum person and I'm not a sightseer. All I really want to do is go check out what the people are doing. Locals. When I finished the law firm, I dabbled in a couple of projects. They all depended on someone else's specialized skills. So one was an app, depended on a developer. One. I was going to move to Milan to start a Texas barbecue with my friend. He got cold feet. And then I was going to start a weather consultancy company with a superstar meteorologist who I grew up with. And they all got cold feet or disappeared. And I'd spent a year spinning my wheels and then decided I was going to move to New Orleans. I love New Orleans. I've always loved it. And then when I was about to move, I gave myself two weeks to think of something to do in New York City. Convinced my friend, my Italian friend to start. He's old school Italian, loves talking, loves Italy. His English is better than most Americans. So I was trying to convince him to do the world's biggest Italian import export expo. He gets to talk, he gets to schmooze, he gets to do all the stuff that he loves to do. And he thought it was a very good idea, but then just got cold feet again. Or just thought, I think he used the word chicken chip. So anyways, I fell asleep that night and I woke up like, well, that sounds like something I could do. Not necessarily an expo, but know, why don't I just start New York's first night market? I was like, well, that could change. I mean, that would, could impact New York City forever and ever. And so that day I decided I would spend a year trying to do that. But at the time there was two competing night markets in Vancouver and then like a once a year night market in la. And that was, as far as I could tell, that was all that existed in North America. And the thing with those three, they were all 95, 99% Asian focused, which makes a lot of sense if you look at sort of the storied night markets around the world, they tend to be Asian. But I thought if this is my reason for staying in New York City. Like, I have to make it New York in and out. Like, everything about it has to speak New York except the price gap and the price cap, which in 2015, 2016 was $5 or any food you could buy. In 2017, we moved it to six and it's been there since. So that was kind of an fu to New York. Right. Like, I wasn't having a paycheck. I couldn't believe how expensive New York was without a paycheck. And I was still like on the privilege side. Right. Like, I had had a good paycheck and it probably had like a resume that if I really needed to, I could probably go find a. But even still, New York was just unbelievably unaffordable. So the two premises that the night market, the Queens night market was founded upon was one, represent as many New Yorkers through a sort of gross proxy, but like country of origin as possible, and two, to impose a price gap to make it like necessarily or matter of fact the cheapest and most affordable place in New York City.

[B]

Yeah. I want to follow up on two things. You mentioned all of these other ideas you were going to do with somebody, but they got cold feet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, that's something that we notice a lot through our venture arm where we sort of specialize on pre seed. In other words, hey, you'd make a good founder to seed. And yet the what's really required is agency. Right. You've got to actually roll up your sleeves and go do it. When I was listening to you, I was like, wow, that seems like a lot of people to opt out because of cold feet. Obviously you don't have cold feet. And what do you think? Like, what do you think was the separation?

[A]

I have the personality that, like, I always knew I was not going to be a lawyer, at least for a long time. And you know, I have to take a little bit step back. I meet a lot of, you know, since the night market started, We've launched about 500 businesses in New York City, which is astounding.

[B]

I think it's just like you should be incredibly, deeply congratulated for that.

[A]

Yeah. But, you know, they're not all success stories. Right. There's a lot of people that are packed up and so, like, it's a big number. But, you know, now Pigeonhole is the kind of guy that knows how to spur entrepreneurship, like very micro businesses. Right. Like, we're not talking venture stuff, but I always tell people, like, one, you should never start a small business. Terrible Idea, like idiotic idea. The percentages are terrible. Yale Law School has this new, I don't know, fairly new initiative called like the Che Fellowship program, where they try to incentivize. Well, they try to tell Yale Law students that you don't have to be a lawyer, you can go private. And there are all sorts of different avenues. And the world opens up when you go to Yale Law School. So they come every year to the night market now and I host them and sort of they ask me for my candid advice. I've usually had a few beers and I started saying this sort of off the cuff, and I started to believe it more and more that normally I would say a person should not start a small business from just the odds and the tax on your life and how it can up you end your life. But I told the law students, you guys should take risks. You have. What I had the benefit of was sort of a resume, higher ability, even if should hit the fan. And the reason I was sort of like, I thought the night market would try it for a year and then I crash and burn and I'd go do something else. I mean, might go like begging someone to hire me. But like, the truth is, you know, with that on my resume, I probably could get hired. So I told, you know, the Yale Law students that they had the benefit of like a plan B, right. Which most families don't like, most families are like, you know, start a dry cleaner or whatever it is. Like, bodega don't have a plan B. And like, if that fails, their livelihoods are severely, you know, impacted. The Ell Law students, like, you know, once they get there, they're in the sort of rarefied air where they, they have a lot of options. And I told them, look, you guys, outside of being a lawyer, if you want, outside being a clerk if you want, or going to private equity, whatever, you can all make lots of money. But if you actually want, you have the privilege of taking huge risks and not having it ultimately like permanently affect your sort of your livelihood, right? Like you can just go do something else. And so anyways, I don't know where I got that to that tangent, but like, that's how I feel about, like, I think most people should not start small businesses. I think it's a losing proposition. There are certain people in the world who, you know, can do it without so much of a risk.

[B]

So let's walk through two vendors, and you don't have to name them. Obviously, they come to you. They're like, they get that advice, right? Hey, small businesses are rough, but they persist, right? What kind of guidance do you give them? And then walk me through one that did really well and then one that that didn't.

[A]

If you can persist through so many nos and so many people telling you not to do it, like, there's something to be said about that. Your odds of making it are probably, you know, incrementally higher than someone who just sort of, you know, didn't have to go through that gauntlet of no's. So the night market is exceptional. Like, I don't mean like exceptional from value proposition, just means it's like, unique in that I've structured it in a way that even if you lost everything you invested in setting up your business and coming to the night market, it's, you know, maximum a grand, two grand. Oh, right. And so, like, there's no magic, I think, behind spurring, like, really micro businesses, like, just make it affordable to lose. Right? Like, and then we've also, like, we're popular enough, I think, at least in terms of, like, visitorship, that is very unlikely. You won't at least break even. Right. So I always try to sort of level set, like, what I'm telling people not to start business is like, you can try the night market, whatever. Like, it costs you, you know, probably 500 bucks or a thousand bucks to get in. You lose that. I hope that doesn't affect your, your livelihood. But to, like, take on a lease is a completely different matter in New York City, right? So, so there's that, like, we are sort of an artificial test bed incubator or whatever. What makes it, you know, success stories. You know, I also think it's funny talking to, you know, successful investor because, like, you know, I assume a lot of very presumptuous, but a lot of what makes a successful investor in hindsight or in the records in history, is like the number of zeros you've created, right? Like, or you have amassed versus ours. You know, what makes, I'll give you one example, like, one of my favorite vendors, partly because she doesn't complain very much at all. Actually been with us from, like day two, I think, way back to 2015. Her success for being at the night market is spending time with her sister and her kids and her husband and, like, previously her mother, her parents under the tent. They don't do anything with food six days a week. But on Saturday, their success is just being able to spend family time together for, like, the eight hours of the night market plus the, you know, Whatever prep time before breakdown. And that is their motivation to be there. Beyond me, like, sort of, that is the sort of things I like to harp on about, like the queens or not harp on, but the things I like to sort of promote with the Queensland market, because that doesn't exist at any other event. Because at no other event in New York City, food focused event, you have the luxury to do that. Like, if you're not making your money, if you're not selling, you're like losing your shirt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, but the night market is one such that, like, it has this aura of vendors come because for all sorts of reasons, there's some of them. So, like, that's one success story. And I mean that very, like sentimentally, like, that is just a success story. You know, we have another vendor who has now, I don't know, 12 shops in like, new to the Northeast. And like, is his desires to take over the world. And he seems to be on his path to do so. He's got business chops and he's good at marketing and all that stuff. And he's gone on to do what he intended to do. The difference there is like complete motivation, like aspirations. What are your ambitions? And so it's hard for me to categorize and bucket, like create buckets out of these vendors because we've created a quasi artificial, like planned economy kind of thing where, you know, success is not how much your sales are, but whatever you want it to be. And we've created enough leeway in terms of cushion and the price and the investment that, you know, it can be that. That's like super.

[B]

So let's take our viewers and listeners. Let's walk into the night market at 400,000 square feet.

[A]

It's pretty close. Like when we flex our gates, it's pretty close to 300. It's definitely 300,000. Sometimes close to 400,000 square feet.

[B]

Okay, so let's walk. Let's walk through. You're going to be my tour guide.

[A]

Sure. So you can enter, if you're being literal, you can enter through the north gate or the south gate. The north gate is mostly for people coming off the subways or parking lot. The parking fills up very quickly. And the south gate is for most people, sort of either cutting across the park, Flushing Meadows, or just coming up there locally. They're both pretty busy. And as soon as you walk in, you're immediately sort of immersed in a wave or sort of a sea of blue tents and orange tents, about 75 blue tents each tent each Blue tent is a food tent and about 35 orange tents. And each orange tent is art merchandise. And it takes, you know, that's over 105, 110 vendors on any given night. It takes a while to sort of. If you haven't been. It takes a while to orient yourself and, you know, to realize that there are like three alleyways, you know, pathways full of vendors. And so most people, you know, I have often heard they walk in and, like, it's not so big. And then they realize that there's another turn and then there's another turn and there's another turn. They're like, oh, my God, that's overwhelming. And you'll see sort of smoke coming. And mostly the skewer vendors have smoke, like, coming up the wazoo. They have charcoal, which makes for a great picture. But their neighbors are not particularly happy. And, you know, you'll see. We curate, as I said, a rough proxy for diversity, if you can still use that word, but by sort of country. And we have a quota generally of no more than two representatives from a country in any given night.

[B]

And you have like, 100 countries we've.

[A]

Represented since we started. We've represented like, 103 countries through their food. And, you know, we can talk about the curation a bit later if you want. But essentially, it's the one parameter outside of the country quota is that you had to grow up. You have to sell what you grew.

[B]

Up eating, which I think is really fascinating. But let's talk about it now.

[A]

Okay, sure.

[B]

Let's talk about the curation now. If you can only have two vendors from a particular country. Right. How do you adjudicate that? How do you decide who those two vendors are going to be?

[A]

It's tricky. It's trickier for some countries than others. There's priority for people who have been there before. If I have 100 applicants from Colombia, it's just some sort of, like, is one grandfathered in because they've been there so long? You know, like, there's a soft spot for people who came in 2015 because they took a huge risk on whatever the hell I was doing. So, like, anyone from 2015 kind of has a little bit of a. Easier path getting in. And outside of that, it's like story slash, you know, what has New York not seen before? So the entire. One of the entire point. One of the points of the Queen's Night market is can you tell stories? Can you perpetuate traditions that are close to being lost? And so some of that means you Know, if there's a dish that I've never heard of or, you know, most of New York has never heard of, that either means it's not super popular in New York yet or anymore. Or, like, it's such a. Such a small percentage of people that. Or practicing it or, you know, perpetuating that tradition that, like, I would love to get it out there in the world. And, you know, like, maybe by. In so doing, there's a, you know, an article written about it for one time, and maybe someone thinks five minutes about it and then, you know, like, you know, all these traditions are going to be something very different in, you know, 20 years time. So trying to preserve these little nuggets of stories or traditions for just, you know, however temporal. However temporally I can sort of do so. So that's. So that's just like. It's just a weird mix of, like, how I'm feeling that day, you know, whatever it is. And. And then there's the other side, which is, you know, two, three years ago, I think we got an application from someone from Papua New Guinea. I was like, I don't even know what to eat. Don't even know what food they source. But, like, you're in. Like, if you can make it work, you're in. Because, like, she was. She was from there. And, like, I was like, that would be amazing. But we probably the only food festival in the US that has that, like, that representation. Turns out, like, we went through this whole thing. I was like, you know, give me. What do you normally eat? What do you want to sell? What are you passionate about? And then, you know, after she was accepted, she realized that you couldn't source the ingredients. And so, like, sad story, like, but, like, so if you come, like, if you're coming once from a country, again, the story had. The narrative has to match up, right? Like, one thing, the whole point of this, you have to sell what you grew up eating is just to avoid someone going to culinary school and figuring out something trendy or making up a new dish and sort of selling it and not for any reason. And, like, there are plenty of markets in New York City and across the US that do exactly that, cater to exactly that kind of like, Instagram ability and profitability. That was never the point of the night market anyways.

[B]

So they get in, right? What are the most common problems that they come to you with? Am I going to be right if I guess the $6 cap on the food?

[A]

It's. It's a pretty mixed bag of what People encounter some of it's marketing. So I'll give you a story. We have, I don't know if we have a target demographic, but like the people that come to the night market, that aren't just locals, that like actually travel from like the other boroughs or like the tourists are probably drawn because they'll probably, they're looking for food that they can't find elsewhere, whatnot. I mean, outside of just the affordability part, because I think that's important. I'm not delusional. I think like, that's the main reason we are like popular in the first place. But for the people who sort of make that extra track, because you could go to the bodega across the street and presumably get a $6 sandwich or something like that. But so for the people that make the trek that's not convenient for, I think they're there to eat, you know, try foods and like experience cultures and bridge across different horizons and cultures. So we had, for instance, we had this one vendor who went through the business seminars and she served African food. I can't remember the details. Maybe it was West African or maybe a Central African. Just something that we hadn't had before. I was very excited. I was like, you know, the narrative matched and like it super cool. But she also had a restaurant in the Bronx and like lower Bronx and her restaurant in the Bronx, if you went to the, if you saw her restaurant and hopefully there's enough restaurants I think like this in the Bronx that I'm not singling anyone out. But like essentially the awning in her restaurant says, you know, burgers, pizza, pasta, wings, Spanish food, whatever, like the hodgepodge. And I could, there's probably some markets where that makes sense is, you know, make a one stop shop for anyone that comes. But we had curated her because she had this amazing sort of African story that we hadn't seen before. And. But she came with the same signage that she, her restaurant did, which was like. And she was only selling the African food because that's all we curated. But like the sign was just the hodgepodge of like stuff that like people are coming to night market specifically to avoid. Right, right. And so that was just sort of like a lesson in, you know, marketing. And you know, another time we had a vendor who, I don't know if it's health code appropriate, but, you know, she was doing okay. But then one day she decided to, you know, hang those roasted ducks that you see all in Chinatown. And like from that day on for like the next 10 years she had constant line, like nonstop. And that was also just a sort of marketing thing. So that's one is sort of just how do you present, who do people come in? But there are also days of the night market where it doesn't matter who you are, what you brought, you're going to have a line because there's just so many stalls that 20,000 people can go to, which is. Those are my favorite nights. Because the ones who are struggling or don't have the marketing jobs or whatever, don't have the sophistication of they can still do well, right? Like I remember last year towards the end we brought on a Kazakh vendor and like it was literally a piece of paper that they held up and had like their sign hold up with like hand drawn menu. And like it was so busy though that they sold out. Like normally you'd be like, oh my God, they look like, can't trust their food, can't trust their menu, can't trust anything about like it's so sketchy looking but like it was so busy and people were so hungry for food that like they sold out like that. And they slightly improved over the year, like over the next three weeks because it was towards the end of the season. But like there's some nights that like you can't fail, right? Except for if you operationally fail, right? So there are some people that like the first night they see how busy it is, they've come as visitors and you know, I'm very upfront, I tell them exactly the stats like that I know it's like, you know, the average vendor sells 550 portions a night, right? Huge variability. But like that's where it is. And like I'll tell you, there are probably vendors that sell 100 a night and there are some vendors that sell 1,000 a night on average. But like that's where this, and you know, this is one of the things we're talking about, the mindset of entrepreneurs. There are entrepreneurs that start and like, well if the average is 550, I'm definitely selling 2,000, right? And so they're like, they just pack so much shit that like, you know, there's not humanly possible to get to 2000. Like you can't even take 2000 ones in that amount of time or whatever it is, right? Like, so that's like one thing about the mindset of like those are the, you know, if I was investing, those are the like the business people, I would not invest in those entrepreneurs. But there's also the other ones that are like, you know, the benefit of having such a low vendor fee and in order to break even, assuming you're hiring just you and your family or son or whatever, right? Like you need to sell 50 or 100. And so there are a lot of also, like on the other end of the spectrum, people like just easing their way in, bring 200 portions and there's a lot in the first hour and they just have to sit there and wait. But then they get to explore and see what other people are doing. But like, you know, just sort of, here's the mean, here's the medium and here's the variability. Do what you want. But, you know, I get, you know, I try to give them some common sense things about like, you know, imagine it takes your cash, you know, like your son 30 seconds to just make the change. How does that affect, you know, whatever? Like, how does it affect your operational efficiency? And imagine it actually takes you two minutes to fry XYZ versus, like, you know, just trying to talk people out of this, like 2,000 servings kind of like thing. You know, I try to give a top 10 list of, you know, random advice to vendors at these seminars. Like, please, like, at least smile and make eye contact with people that walk past you. Right? Like, you never, like, and there's so much, you know, like as a visitor, like, you have to make a guilty, guilty feeling decision not to look at someone's stuff when they're like, looking at you and making, smiling at you. But it's amazing how many of these, like, small businesses just don't do that. They're looking down at their phone and like, I get it, like, the conversion rate is small and like all that stuff. But like, if you're actually going to do it, going to like, going to do it. Make the effort for those whole eight hours. And like, you can be tired, your eyes can be like glaze over. But like, for the majority of time, try to like, you know, impress upon like. And like, that's something that, like small things like that sort of I harp on.

[B]

But that has always fascinated me. Just some basics, right? When I was in Hong Kong, for example, there were these big groups of, led by a woman, almost always a woman of little kids. And I'm a very naturally inquisitive person and I will talk to any stranger. And so I walked right up and said, what's going on? And she was really blunt and she was like, all mainland Chinese. And I went, okay, but. And she goes, they send them here to learn Manners. And I'm like, really? And so we kind of got into it and one of the things that she brought up first and foremost was when she gets them, they never look at her, they dismiss her, they don't shake her hand. These are just really basic things to connect with another human being. And if you're going to try to be an entrepreneur and you're not doing that. I remember one guy I used to work with and he was very analytical, right? Which he was really good at. But I noticed when we would go and we were trying to raise money for a company, when we would go to meet prospective investors, if he was there ahead of me, he was always in the corner looking at his phone. And I'm like, dude, come over and talk to these people. Maybe is there a story where you get somebody who started out like that but then kind of grew to being a good entrepreneur?

[A]

A lot of them, I mean, like it's. The learning curve there is incredibly steep. And the one, one of the things I talked about earlier, maybe, maybe that was with Nick. The camaraderie between the vendors is a sort of remarkable thing that I never would have predicted. Maybe you could sort of work backwards and say, well, you know, everyone at these other markets. And again, most of this was not planned, right? And so most of it's just sort of retrospect conjecture about how something happens. But at these other events, they're all like frenemies or like competing, right? Like just, you know, they want to be the person that makes the most money at the night market. Like I was just telling your colleague Nick that like they have like intergenerational cross cultural dinner parties all the time. Like they're friends and like if, you know we have a Persian lady who is on and off vendor, she usually comes by herself. Her vendor, her neighbors, whoever they end up being that week, often help her break down and load up her car, which is like just remarkable, weird stuff. So if you are, you know, not, not the greatest entrepreneur when you first get there, at least for the nightmare, like again, there's so many concepts of the night market. Just would never be sustainable outside of the night market. But for those eight hours on a Saturday, my guess is your, those neighbor vendors are helping you along. Like, oh, you know, here's tips of the trade, here's how I would do it. Light. They always talk about lighting and how to engage trust, but how to set up your stall so you can, like, you can get by. And you know, my guess is if I'm not the one Telling you they're like them, which I try not to do. Like once they start, like, I try not to like interfere with what they do. But that's not, that's not true with all the other. Their colleague vendors are very quick to sort of give them tips on like branding and setup and optimization. So I don't know if we've like, you know, we had a lady who came out of business school. She would load her car and she used it for like operations training because she wanted to potentially break into the food industry. Came out of a very stellar business school, just loaded up her car with as much as she could fit. Like she, you know, very good planning. She sort of knew the equipment, knew how much she could make, sold out every night. And then she, you know, she used it as the first year, I think she only came one year, but used it as a training ground and then launched a restaurant to like huge fanfare. Like it became, it was like the number one on a list for maybe like three or four years ago. Did great. But then from what I know she got married and moved to Paris. But for, for that, for that year, she like, she didn't know what she was doing. The first time she ever sold a thing herself was at the night market, loaded up her cars to the brim, figured it out and then sort of parlayed that into a restaurant and you know, so that's, you can use it for. The night market is used for all sorts of reasons, but that's like probably one where they're, you know, they really used it and sort of took the skill set and sort of expanded on.

[B]

It and how many people over the years, because you've also been, you've got great call outs as best food in New York. I've read a lot of the stuff written about it. Like are a lot of people using it as a training ground to go on to launch other things like a restaurant or in the case of the people selling merchandise, a boutique.

[A]

Sure. I mean, I don't know. I mean I tried to keep track, but anecdotally I'd say the last official survey, which means like me digging into my brain to figure out and remember who came through, like maybe 30 or 40 restaurants came out and maybe like 10 or 20 retail shops came out of it.

[B]

So. Okay, let's continue on our tour. We're in. We see that the, they're color coded. The people selling food are one color, merchandise another. What sorts of merchandise would you find there that used.

[A]

It's funny. So there hasn't been that much evolution in the night market, for better or worse. But the curation of the retail stuff and the merchandise has. You know, when I first started the night market, I really chased after this sort of cultural representation kind of thing. And so both through the food, so that part hasn't changed, but also through the art. I tried to get, you know, culturally representative, diverse art. So that meant like African art and, you know, Ecuadorian art and, you know, Chinese art and all this sort of stuff on completely aside. I also tried to do that with entertainment. You know, we had all these sort of unique musicians and instruments that you'd never seen before. And anyways, on the food it caught on, it made sense and became sort of sustainable in terms of at least the crowds and like, you know, as long as the vendors are selling it off, like, that's all that matters in terms of like the economics of didn't really work at the retail side because one, maybe the price point and two, maybe no one's coming to buy African art. Right? Or how do you even get home? That kind of stuff. So we sort of shifted more towards at least either the New York part still the same. So it's like locally designed, locally made or locally curated. So we still avoid mass production stocks and that kind of stuff. But it's become a little bit more what will people actually buy? So you'll see a lot of, you know, there are a couple tents and we still try to maintain. I try to maintain a pretty considerate mix of stuff. So if there's someone selling like anime stuff, I won't have more than one out of the 35 or more than two out of 35 crochet stuff and paintings and stuff like that. So, like, you'll see some toys, you'll see a fair amount of art, ceramics, crochet, whatever, like some novelty stuff. So, yeah, whatever. But like, still insist that it's not just mass produce, mass production stuff.

[B]

And same rule apply for the vendors selling merchandise. Let's say you're from Iceland. Is the things that you're selling of Icelandic origin something they grew up with?

[A]

Yeah, less so. Like something like we still, like, to the extent that there are some things like that, you know, we have a Japanese vendor who's been with us for a long time, sounds like, you know, very traditional Japanese stuff and like, you know, nice chopsticks and that kind of stuff and. But we also have like really young kids selling, you know, anime toys and plushies and stuff like that. So, you know, we try to keep it Mostly sort of culturally appropriate and representative, but also mostly just focused on that. It's like locally. The business owner is either locally designing it, locally producing it, or locally curating it. So it's a little bit. It's moved away from, like, sort of the cultural representation, but that's just. That was a pure economic thing. Right. Like, we could curate it with all the sort of, you know, esoteric art stuff, but the vendors just weren't.

[B]

And it seems to me that you've allowed a lot of emergence. Right. It doesn't sound like other than your cap on pricing, you know, the. You can't have any more than two representatives from a particular country. Are there any other rules that you have enforce? Wave?

[A]

Yeah, not. I mean, not so much. You know, there are in the weeds stuff. For better or worse, you know, like, no one, no vendor is allowed to leave before you close. Even if they sell in the first hour, they're not allowed to break down. They. They. They can stay. They can go explore the market. They can go. They can sit in their tent and just smile at people and tell people what they could have had. When we first created the performer, like, when we were curating performances, we have, like, three or four live performances a night. I was very much about the sort of cultural stuff and, like, lots of dance troupes and lots of, you know, esoteric, very specific, unique musical instruments. And sometimes they would, like, fall on deaf ears or, like, it was hard to amp them up. They were historically acoustic without, you know, and so, like, there are a lot of times you create these really cool things that no one had ever seen, but no one cared or you couldn't hear it, you know, so we've definitely, you know, we still try to sprinkle those in as much as possible, try to do better and sort of amping them up and giving them a platform. But we've also just created a lot more, like, just local bands that people like. Right. Energetic. So on those two fronts, I would say, you know, I followed a little bit more what is appealing and engaging versus, you know, with a heavy hand.

[B]

And how are the entertainers doing the performances? How are they compensated?

[A]

So for the first three, four years, they weren't. They did it at pro bono, and then I slow. And then honestly, like, you know, my wife probably thinks I'm the worst human being ever because she's an artist. Like, she's probably like, you know, you underpay these people, which is probably true. It's very true. It is true. But, like, you know, I just didn't have a budget. Like this thing was run on a shoestring for still kind of is. So the first three or four years, they just did it pro bono for the huge audience that they got. And then, you know, these. Then I got a grant that I. A small grant, arts grant that I started divvying up. And then when I either lost the patience or didn't have capacity to keep upping, re upping or reapplying for the grants, I just sort of made a small budget for it out of it. So we pay them, you know, disproportionate to their talent, check the other way.

[B]

But, you know, but can they also be like buskers and have an open.

[A]

They can't, no. They also accept tips. So some of them make very, very good money in tips. Like the super. You know, the same ones that would do really well on the subway station, do really well there in terms of tips. Like, we still give them a cut them a small check on an area, but like, some of them do really well.

[B]

And you mentioned that the. The enterprise itself is a bit still shoestringy. Yeah. So what is your business model?

[A]

So hopefully there's not too many business people listening to your podcast because it's terrible. It's like the worst idea ever, to be honest. Again, this is so much about my motivation doing it and like, the idea that at least 11 years ago, I thought I could fall back on something. Right. Like, I thought even if I, Even if some of the partners in my law firm didn't like me, enough of them did that I could probably go back and like, maybe even do relationship stuff, whatever. Like, you know, it's funny you mentioned your. Some of your. Your horses staying in the corner when they arrive before you. Like, I am totally that guy unless there's something I need to have done, right? So, like, in a vacuum, if I'm not looking to fundraise or I'm not looking to schmooze, like, I'm the guy in the corner, like, pretending to look at his own. I'm not even looking at my phone. I'm like pretending to look at my phone just so I don't make eye contact with anyone. But if it's in a room, like, I have to talk to these people and like, there's a, you know, I have an agenda, then I'm out and schmoozing. And so anyways, the motivation for this idea, like, I literally thought I'd spend a year doing it. It would crash and burn. The question I started off with is, why is there an unrighte market in New York City? And I thought after a year, I would have answered that question and then I'd move to New Orleans. So when I came out with this stupid idea, I was like, okay, here's what I will do, and here's how I force my own hand. So a lot of this is creating a structure where I cannot do deviate from it, right? So I created a structure. I went out publicly. I was like, look, this idea I have, what I will do, one is I will never profit from vendor fees. Which means as a sort of practical matter, I'll figure out whatever my operating costs are and divide, essentially divide that by the number of vendors for as long as this thing has legs. Like, that's what. That will always be the case. Stupid idea, no room for profit, period. Like, from the day one. And I thought, you know, okay, well, if I'm so lucky and I like to my, like, this catches fire, like, maybe I'll get some sponsors. Maybe I'll, like, run a bar, whatever it is, but, like, to start it in order to sort of create this structure where nothing costs more than $5. The only way I can convince any vendor to do it. Because there was no, you know, there was no case study, right? It was just like, I had to convince vendors, like, it was worth it to sell things for $5 when they could go to any other event and sell it for 10 or 15. So I was like, look, from day one, I will never veer from the. I'll never make a dollar from your vendor fees. Burned so much cash, right? Like, that idea. Because, like, the idea wasn't at capacity the first few years. And, like, you know, underest, like, overestimating all sorts of things, like a terrible entrepreneur does. And so that was the first thing that was like, a terrible mistake, terrible idea, and like, so much so. But it got tons of buzz, right? Like, there's one thing that, like, is super lucky with. The night market has had a honeymoon with the media for 11 years now. Like, we put something out. And like, I was. I was using this case. Someone asked me, we don't have to talk about the show. Like, you know, I'm in constant, like, fundraising mode. Actually, not constant. Like, over the last two years, I've been fundraising mode, trying to hit up foundations and philanthropists. And someone asked me yesterday, like, you know, what's your strategy for going after philanthropists? Like, haven't no success yet. But, like, like, how do you get these meetings that you have and I was like, you know what? I don't know. I usually cold email, any email address I can find. And what often happens in these meetings I get is that the person who receives it has been to the night market. And they're like, I fucking love the night market. It's the coolest thing ever. Let me see if I can get some people to look at it. And that's the same thing that happens at City hall or, like, you know, any company. Like, the difference between the people who have been and haven't been is really just like, oh, my God, let me do what I can. So the same. The reason I brought that up is with reporters. Like, every reporter has been trying so hard to get the night market, like, headlines or like, good reviews or whatever they do, because they, like, this is how they choose to spend their Saturday nights. And in year two or year one, I remember talking to a reporter, and it was the exact same time as Anthony Bourdain was trying to create as Bourdain Hall. And a reporter told me, like, two press releases hit her desk that morning. One from Anthony Bourdain and mine, and she was like, I wanted to write about yours, but then my editor made me write about the other one. So I convinced the editor that I could write about both. I think in year three, we finally got to enough capacity with vendors, and so it broke even. And then it got the okay to start a bar. And then it was kind of sort of humming along the entire time. It wasn't in year nine that I had a employee hummed along to the pandemic. And then that's when sort of, I feel like, at least anecdotally, it may not actually be true in retrospect, and if you ran the data, but that's when inflation started to really test the $6 limit that we had. So then I started freaking out about the $6 price cap. I was like, I do, you know, at some point the economics are such that selling something for $6 is a losing proposition. And so out of the pandemic, not to name drop, just to name droppers or give props, but like, you know, someone approached me and said, would you like a big bank sponsor? I was like, of course. Like, of course I would. So Citizens bank came in. They were just broke into New York City, and they were looking for things to sort of support and they're outside. Someone from their outside marketing agency was like, you should do the night market. Like, it's the coolest thing ever. So that was three years ago. And my Deal with them is basically, I want you guys to pay down half of the vendor fee. I mean, I tried to get them to pay the entire thing, but, you know, they agreed to pay down half the vendor fee. So that, you know, took, you know, the base vendor fee from maybe like 200 bucks down to 100 bucks, which I could justify, was like, back of the envelope, like, almost accounted for the inflation for, you know, like, the cost inflation, both between labor and food cost. And so that happened for two years. We were, like, happy as a clam. But it's a tricky thing. You know, I'm not. The night market won't go away if. If I'm not able to raise the fine. Right. But the economics of the vendors is such that the price gap does have to be adjusted, which I am just have a personal obsession with keeping as long as humanly possible the $6 price gap. And as long as I can make it worthwhile for the vendors, I will do everything in my power to keep it there. So, anyway, terrible business model. At the end of the day, terrible business model. So much so that I didn't have a regular employee until two years ago.

[B]

Wow. Of course, the Costco hot dog is very, very famous because they lose tons of money on it. But that certainty that you're going to be able to go to Costco eat. And apparently the hot dogs are pretty good. And so I could see why, even though it might seem irrational, I can see why 80% would vote no, keep it, because that's the draw. Right. People know that they can go and get great food at a reasonable price. Yeah. And obviously, but, like, if inflation, everything else, then. Then you're a bit fucked.

[A]

So for me, it's not. It's so much about the whole genesis of a lot of the. This part probably a part I didn't speak too much about after being a lawyer. I was traveling around a bit, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And I'm always amazed outside of, like, maybe Japan and, you know, Western Europe, like, going to these markets, what a dollar, a US Dollar will do for you at a market, Right? Like, I remember two of the best things I've ever eaten in my life cost a dollar. Like, one was a ceviche in Peru and one was like two tacos in Mexico. Like, deep in Mexico for a dollar. Like, unreal. Like, unfair, to be honest. Like, completely unfair. So the Genesis of the $5 price cap, when I was no longer employed in New York City, it was like, a dollar is like Inane. But, like, what if you could take a $5 bill? Anyone in New York City could take a $5 bill and get something that. Anything they wanted at any stall, period. So last year, I had no names, but I was talking to this billionaire philanthropist, and some people had, like, lined up a direct meeting with this person. I was super excited. I was like, oh, my God, is this it? Is this it? And so we sat down, and this person said, everyone told me, I need to meet you. What. What are you doing? What do you have to offer? And I was like, here's the night market, blah, blah, blah, and here's the $6 price gap. And she said, stop. That's your problem. It should be $10 price gap. I was like, no, no, no. It's the exact opposite. Like, I'm trying to. And she's like, no, no, no. Who in New York city cannot afford $10? And I was like, ask the, like, 7 million New Yorkers for which that's like, seriously, like, it was.

[B]

Yeah, no, I know.

[A]

It was a terrible thing. And so our surrounding neighborhood is not affluent. Right? Like, and so, like, for a family of four, you know, I may be saving them 20 bucks a night out, which is not. Not something to bat an eye at. You know, it falls a lot on deaf ears, like, because people, like, don't get it. Because most of the people I'm trying to fundraise from the. The difference between the dollar doesn't make. Right. Doesn't. Doesn't register. It can't possibly. It's like a penny to them, which no longer is. So, like, the night market doesn't go bust if I don't raise the money. You know, at some point, yes, in the next few years, the price gap will go up no matter what. Unless there's deflation, which seems not likely. So it's just a matter of, like. So when I'm pitching people, it's this weird. Like, pitching the same people for whom that dollar doesn't matter is tricky, but also, like, you know, it's hard to pitch this angle. Like, the one thing that people in Queens tell me. And, like, all the institutions, like, you've put Queens on the map in a way that no one else. Like, Queens has. The Mets in the US in the US Open, and that's pretty much it. And you were talking about some of the accolades, which, to me, are pretty bought like crazy in 10 years. Last year, Lonely Planet and the Financial Times listed us as a top 10 market in the entire world, which you're competing with. Markets with hundreds if not thousands of years of history. And in like 11 years, somehow we've sort of broken into this like crazy list. And so like we're getting New York City accolades again. This is, I'm not like trying to pat myself on the back, but like trying to get into like, how do you sell this thing to someone? Like, we've gotten New York City accolades where in the list that, you know, only, you know, Paris and Marrakesh and you know, Hong Kong have been on this list for it. All of a sudden, you know, Queen. Not only New York City, Queens has this sort of thing. So there's this, you know, there's so many angles and then there's just the other thing you should. People will notice when they come to the night market, I think, is that there's just like this calm joy that like radiates over the entire event. And I, you know, I could speculate all sorts of reasons why that might be and I think affordability is probably a big one. But it's just like the biggest mass of New Yorkers happy. Which is just a weird thing to like see in general, right? Like, New Yorkers are always curmudgeonly and like bitter and hustling or whatever, but like for eight hours a week, like they are just in perfect harmony and they're specifically to sort of, you know, some like, you know, for some to learn from their neighbors and sort of eat food that they haven't had. Cross cultural bridge. Some of them, they just want to like find a place to sit and drink and eat and find whatever. But like, you know, there's something I don't want to call moving, but sort of like deeply satisfied, satisfying about like, you know, Saturdays at the Queensland Market, like so much. So what baffles me more than, you know, all these like accolades that we've sort of gotten is that probably once a week maybe on average someone reaches out either social media or like finds my email address, which is easy to guess. It's like John at or whatever. It says like full stop, Queens Night market is the best part about New York City. Like, to me that is just probably inaccurate, but like just crazy that someone would say that, right? Like there's the Met, there's like Statue of Liberty. There's so much amazing shit in New York City that anyone would bother to write me personally and say like, you know, you've created my favorite thing or like my family's favorite thing. It's just beyond me. So, you know, I'm always, you know, trying to get myself out of running the Queen's Night Market because it's taxing and terrible idea and all sorts of things, but, like. Like, it is, like, hard to walk away from something people think so, care so deeply about. You know, that, like, the volunteering, right? The idea that someone volunteers, you know, we're not a museum. We're not like a, you know, a vet. A veterinarian, like, but people are still asking the volunteer is super weird to.

[B]

Me as the doors open, right? Like, what. What does the clientele look like?

[A]

I always say a cross section of New York City, right? Like, and that's the one thing people I think notice. And, you know, I think New York magazine once said, like, it's a New Yorkiest. New Yorkiest of New York Festivals, right? Like, it is. We. I mean, it's been many years since we did a survey, but a very, like, impromptu survey it was. Back then, it was 30% Asian, 30% Latin, 30% Caucasian, 10% black, which is almost the exact breakdown of New York City. And it was amazing. I'm like, well, if I had to sort of on paper, create an event for New York City, that's exactly a demographic I would have picked. And so that's how it happens. And in terms of personal anecdotes or sort of class of anecdotes is there's often, you know, there's so many tiny neighborhoods in Queens and New York City, for that matter, that often there are these enclaves where grandparents will never step foot outside these enclaves, right? And so what? Often. I don't know how often. I'm, like, probably overestimating by far. But, you know, what happens is that these grandkids take. Force their grandparents to come to the night market, and they're like, no, no, no, don't want to go. Don't want to go. There's nothing I can eat. And the kid's like, no, no, no. I guarantee you you'll find at least something that will remind you of home, whether it's like, your neighboring country, neighboring country of origin, or whatever it is. Like, you'll go and you'll find something, and you'll be comfortable. And then, like, once they have that, they're like, oh, this was a good version. This was a terrible version. Whatever. And, like, the grandkids proceed to, like, push the envelope and sort of like, well, now that you try that, why don't you try this? Why don't you try that? Like, get them outside of the comfort zone. And, like, happens all the time, you know? Overestimating, I'm sure, but happens a lot. And that's like the great sort of the point, the entire point of the night market. It was like that kind of exploration and sort of like. And then, you know, the grandparents are out get to like mingle with New Yorkers that they generally wouldn't see, like, ever.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, my own experience, I haven't been yet. I will be there for sure. But I've been to night markets in Marrakech, in Cambodia, in Hong Kong, in Lao. They're really fun. And like, I remember the first one I went to was actually in Marrakesh and I was like, wow, this is like just a really, really good time. I. Are there, are there opportunities? Kind of back to sponsorship. And by the way, like the billionaire who doesn't understand that the difference between.

[A]

$6 and $10, like, that's fucked up.

[B]

Like, come on. I mean, yeah, it's a rarefied bubble and I get that. But you would think that they could at least think and extrapolate theoretically that for a lot of people that's a lot of money. I mean, honestly, I think it's one of the big problems of New York right now is it's priced out like everybody except the rich. And that is not a good thing to happen. And, and so that's why I'm enthusiastic about things like the night market. Right, but like that you've put Queens and New York on the map with that. That's also kind of extraordinary to me. Right. And, and the other thing I love about it is if you had come in with some kind of, this is the way it's going to be with some kind of top down, you know, there's got to be this number of these people this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, it would have not worked. And because you let it evolve and the friendships, all that kind of stuff, I think one thing that people really do crave and one trend we're seeing is just connection with other human beings. And like, this is the perfect stage for that to happen. What's the turnover in vendors? Like, do you get a lot of new people or a lot of stalwarts who are always there?

[A]

We try. I mean, it depends on the year. I think it tracks in a way. I'm not clever enough to sort of, nor do I have enough time to think about how it tracks. But like last year we actually had the least amount of turnover. I was surprised. Like, I aspire for like 50% or more turnover and hopefully these guys have found the 50% that turnover that I hope turn over, have found better things to do or like bigger profit margins elsewhere. But last year was a weird one. And I think it may be economic uncertainty or more than 70% of our vendors reapplied, which was exceptional. And so we had a really hard time trying to figure out how to create turnover without being an asshole saying like, you know, you're done. And so it really depends on the year. I mean, there are some years where, you know, maybe there are a lot of food festivals and they all decide to go to a, you know, more profitable one. I don't know. And like the turnover is much more natural and like closer to where I would like it to be just to keep things fresh and. But last year was a tricky one, so we had to like, you know, we do silly things like, okay, well for the ones on the fence. Well, like can will you be willing to split dates with another returning vendor just so we could create an extra 10 for new ones? And so it really depends. But somewhere, you know, if, if I, in a vacuum, I'd love for there to be about 50% turnover or so.

[B]

And the, the intent there being just giving additional opportunities to new people.

[A]

Yeah. You know, 10 years, 15 years down the road, it won't happen as a practical matter. But like I would love to have a tent for every sort of country of origin represented in New York City. Like that's always been the ideal. And that's why, I mean, again, that's the only reason we sort of count country flags. Right. Otherwise like, you know, China has like 10 billion cuisines and like, you know, so does every country has so many nuances. So like it's such a terrible, I mean, you know, terrible proxy for a cow to count. Diversity or storytelling. But it's the only one that like I can. Otherwise you're caught in a sort of non stop trying to figure out the number of regions you've represented. So, you know, creating spaces for these, you know, vendors and countries whose stories haven't been told or at least featured.

[B]

On, on the China question, are they serving American Chinese or are they serving real?

[A]

So the thing that the, this is the nuance that I've. The workaround, right. There's when I started the night market and even still there's persistent questions. There are people like to call. I think I wrote a piece on this for the University of Michigan alumni. Maybe. I think, I think I did. They often use a phrase or adjective. Authentic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And a lot of people who describe New York with the best intention or describe The Queen's Night Market with the best intentions. Always call it, like, authentically New York or authentic vendors or whatever it is. And I'm always like, I don't. I would never choose to use the word authentic because to me, it means, like, it's only. Only has a definition when you're talking about inauthentic, right? In like. Inauthentic means some sort of, like, mental state where you're trying to dupe someone or you're trying to, like, pass something off as something else, which I'm not a judge of that. I don't know who could be a real judge of that. And so what I. The reason it got formulated as you have to cook something you grew up with. Like, if you grew up with it, it has a tradition, right? Whether it's only within your lifetime, within your family, or ideally, or maybe another word, like, in other ways, it's like, it might reflect a tradition passed down from grandparents or great grandparents and that kind of stuff. I don't know, and I don't care, as long as it is a tradition in your family. And, like, you can extrapolate up or sort of work up the ladder as far as you can. Doesn't matter to me. Like, but, like, if you grew up eating it at least has. I can at least rest assured that it has some tradition in your family. And the rest, like, you know, if it happens to reflect, you know, a thousand years worth of traditions, awesome. If it doesn't, so be it. In a case in point there, right? You know how it worked out in practical matters. Yeah. This year, we, for better or worse, featured a pizza bagel vendor, right? Very American, obviously Americana. But, like, I grew up eating pizza bagels, right? Like, has nothing to do with, like, whatever Asian heritage I have or nor much to do with my, like, being born in Texas or any of that stuff. But I did fucking eat pizza bagels, like, up the wazoo. And so did this guy. And so who am I to say that is not important culturally or traditionally? It fits every narrative, sort of specific curatorial parameter that we have. So I was like, sure, you can do it. We didn't have that many American. We didn't hit our quota of American vendors. And so they came. They were a huge success. Now, someone might look at it, be like, oh, that's totally not up your curatorial alley, right? But in terms of, like, the letter of the law, it was exactly the kind of thing we should be like, I'd curate, right? Like, you convinced me that you grew up eating it and period. Right. And so, you know, but it skirts a lot of tricky questions about authentic and authentic. So we. So the reason it came up your question is we've had a fair number of, like, Latin Chinese cuisine, right? Like, there's a lot of Chinese cuisine in South America and a lot of these families have grown up eating it. And so, like, I, you know, I don't use the word fusion or inauthentic or, you know, whatever. Like, if they grew up eating, it passes mustard for me. So we end up with probably some versions of, you know, like, if a kid grew up eating, you know, like certain kind of rules a certain way, like, so be it. Right. So it doesn't quite answer your question, but it's kind of like whatever anyone grew up eating and has a passion for.

[B]

And then how do you deal with what I have to suspect is a lot of health code red tape, all of that.

[A]

Yeah, it's, you know, our landlord has a private operating agreement. They were built for the World's Fair or the, you know, Hall Science. So our direct contract is with this museum, who gets to sort of oversee their own thing. If we had to sign a contract with Parks, there's so like, the bureaucratic headache and the costs balloon, like, it wouldn't exist. So also, we are public land, but, like, privately operated. So we don't have to do, like, we don't have to seek the same permits that someone on the street does because we're quasi private property. And like, so we skirt that one. And then in so doing, like, the health department has a whole set of codes for pop ups which are, you know, for better or worse, a little bit more lenient in terms of, like, how the kind of infrastructure you need. And so we luckily fall into sort of all these more convenient buckets or exceptions of rules. And so, like, I mean, we still enforce all the same permit, like the required permits and the safety and all that stuff. But, like, it just so happens that they're a little bit less onerous because of all these circumstances.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, right out here, there's the farmers market. And again, me being me, I would go and just drill these people with questions because I was trying to figure it out, right? Like, how are you. There was the same guy for years and years and years. And I'm like, how are you making money? Because I'm fascinated by that. Right? And so, like, walk me through your day. When do you leave upstate New York to get here? And it's like, at insane times. But when, when they walk Me through the whole thing, I'm like, okay, you. You actually are making money despite all of the particular things going on. Very different for a farmer's market, though, because I don't see that as much of a launching pad. Like, you want to start a new restaurant, you want to do that. Whereas your night market seems like the ideal environment if you want to test out, you know, a particular food or a particular style, as you mentioned earlier, like, it's not going to break you. And so what do you see for, like, the next five years? Just banging along or.

[A]

I do not know. I generally don't plan more than a year in advance because I'm constantly thinking, this will be the last year I do it. Never. I've been wrong 10 years now in a row. So it's a little bit of the same. Someone asked me, yes. No, someone asked me two days, three days ago, what would you change about the night market if you could go back in time? And I didn't expect the question. So I said, you know, I would have had someone else start it. Because I do think it should exist. Like, I think the concept, like, is good, solid. Again, the business model is admittedly the worst thing in the world, but it's got, you know, so many New Yorkers have come to love it. So many entrepreneurs have used it. Like, some of them have used it as a sort of of important income supplement or exclusive income. But, like, would, I think, 11 years I'd still be doing it. I didn't think I'd be doing it more than one year. And, you know, that's also why I've been, I think, so transparent about everything about the night market. Right. Like, I remember year two, the Wall Street Journal did a profile and they asked me all these questions about, like, financing and stuff. And it's like, oh, here's how much money I lost, here's how much money I raised. And like, blah, blah, blah. And the article came out and was like, this is how much my money he lost is how much money raised. And everyone's like, why the fuck do you tell him that? I was like, was I not supposed to? Oh, my God. Like, I have no idea. Like, so apparently you're supposed to hide your finances from the Wall Street Journal. But, like, I was like, here it is. And so, like, I've been super transparent about, like, the curation. There's no secret sauce of anything I've done. And that was like, goes back to like, did I. I want. I needed to do something where I didn't. Didn't depend on specialized skills, right? Didn't depend on coding or sort of specialized knowledge or language skills. So this is what I came up with. And now I remember why I was talking about the honeymoon with the media. The last. So two or three years after we launched or like maybe even sooner than that, we got tons of buzz. People loved it, the idea anyways. And so for a time in my life, I was constantly fielding requests from different countries and different cities and different states asking me if I would come, try to replicate what I was doing. And like I, I haven't counted for like eight or nine years, but like at some point it was like 12 or 15 countries like, you know, like France, Russia, Australia were like, can you come? And I was like, no, it's on Saturday, I can't come. But like, I was like, but I will tell you how to do it for better or worse. Like if you can't find an idiotic guy who wants to like take on three jobs himself and like, like that. Because that's how, like, that's the reason the $6 price gap is there, right? Like, cause like, presumably I am doing a couple of people's jobs and have sort of internalized as many expenses as possible. But like, look, I will sit down with anyone and tell them how I've done it and like, be as candid as possible and like, if so anyways, for a while, for a couple of years, there were not only night markets popping up left and right because everyone thought that was what made it popular. And then also all these events were trying to impose their own price gaps on their own vendors. And like all of those price gaps have like since disappeared, right? Like it was a big thing for a couple years and everyone was like, oh, look at our price gap, look at our price gap. And like they've all let go of it. And then, I mean, the night markets thing still goes strong. I mean, I think I would guesstimate that since the Queens night market been maybe a thousand night markets that have started, like some of them are just like fly by night. You know, Citi says whatever. But my, my wife, my in laws have a little shack in France on the, on the coast and the Atlantic coast called Normatier, like famous for sea salt. Anyways, tiny, tiny, tiny, like you know, a couple thousand people maybe. And like they, they have a night market now. And like my, my mother in law was like, look what you did. You started a like night market in this tiny little seaside like down that like for no reason. So anyways, so basically the point, I think, was, like, transparency. Like, I, you know, I've never turned down, like, a meeting to tell people how I did it. And, like, I'm usually probably overly candid in terms of, like, how bad it is. But, like, there's no secret sauce and you just have to remain committed to xyz. So I think. So this all goes back to, like, you know, how do I envision five years from now? And I honestly don't and can't. And, you know, people offered to buy it, but I know that it would change so much about it. One of them was a sort of sports marketing company, and it would turn into, I don't know, some sort of expensive corporate thing. So I don't know. It's tricky. I've been very transparent about my struggles with, do I stay in? Do I get out? I don't know the answer to that. I'm still always looking for someone to say, I will take the reins from you so much. So there was a. Three years ago, I offered to sell it to the park, or actually I offered to give it to the parks department. So if you go back to 2014, when I sort of put out the first feelers and stuff about this, it was envisioned under the unisphere, right? Like, I still think that this, like, an iconic spot would sort of bring so much together. It has a space for it, but that is, like, bureaucrat central, right? Like, the most iconic space in Queens is dead center, like, Queens flagship park. All sorts of issues. But. And, like, some of it was, like, corporate, like, commercializing issues. Like, they were fearful that I was, like, commercializing the parks, you know, whatever. So I was like, look, if that's really your. Your concern, I will sell the entire project to you for a dollar. I will teach you to run it for two years. You actually get to internalize many more costs than I do because you already have the existing stuff anyways. It's crickets. Like, complete crickets. But, like, you know, I was so, like, I just use as a case of point that, you know, I'm not so beholden to it. Like, I don't think, like, I'm happy for it to exist outside of me, right? It's not my. Like, I don't think I'm the only one. I can run it. I don't think I have any specialized skills or knowledge about it. Like, I would love to see it exist, and I would love to not be the one doing it day to day, to be honest.

[B]

It also does seem to me, though, as you mentioned the other places with the explosion of night markets. I think one of the reasons it's so incredibly successful is because of the breakdown of New York. Right. Like, I've always thought of New York as a collection of, you know, neighborhoods really. And you can be walking around and two blocks, everything changes. And so the, the, that spirit of New York is somewhat unique around the world. But the, I think that's wild that you offered to sell it to them for a dollar and, and just crickets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, yeah, but hang on, doesn't New York like realize all of the goodwill that you are building for Queens and the entire city? Right. Like, that there should be a value to that. They're just being politicians about it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, probably, you know, like they're only thinking, you know, in their administration.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like. Right. So it's tricky. And you know, I still think it's a good idea. And if they ever to want to broach that topic, I would totally do it. I was like, look, I will spend two years teaching you how to do it. And then like, you could have the coolest thing. Like I, I was trying to think of cool things parks have done. Right. Like, and so, you know, just not a park connoisseur, but like, you know, in Hot Springs, Arkansas, the parks has like, you know, beer made from the hot springs water. Yeah, I think that's kind of cool partnership. And like, and like, there are lots of things in Aiko. Hopefully no one does this without cutting me in. But like, you know, I had this idea. A friend of mine wanted to start a, a food company where they just use sort of foraged goods. And I was like, you know, the parks department should get behind that and you could forage like all your stuff and like parks department can't use certain fertilizers and whatever. You can almost call it organic. And I was like, like, you know, and they like also crickets. I was like, you know, like, that's when I use this case in point with the hot springs. I was like, look, they do it. They have these cool, cool partnerships. Like parks have these sort of cool partnerships that if you sort of weren't so risk averse. And I heard it out like, yeah, whatever you could get to know, it's fine. But like, at least hear it out. But none of that.

[B]

So like, if it, if it comes to pass, right, that somebody either buys it or takes it over. Still New Orleans.

[A]

No. So I have, you know, I have a kid on the way in two to three weeks.

[B]

Congratulations.

[A]

And one of the things, the one thing I will never live down is I promised myself and my wife first, myself before I ever met wife, that I would never raise a kid in New York City. And then when I met her, of course we'll never raise a kid in New York City. And now working on kid 2 is coming up and we're still in New York City. And one thing I didn't expect that has come out of the night market, outside the night market again, didn't think it was going to last more than a year, is how all of a sudden it's like my professional life is very tied to New York City. Like not just the night market but like, you know, now I sit on the board of NYC Tourism, which is like the official marketing arm. I sit on a couple other boards, all volunteer, don't make any money on it. But all of a sudden like I don't get much of a say about where New York City goes, but like very involved in a way like you know, that I never thought like I would be. And now all of a sudden I care even more about New York than I did before. And so now like shit like for the 11 years, you know, I had a New York business, but all of a sudden like it's put me in a place that's forced me to care even more about it being on these like, you know, having these different roles that directly impact New York City either like from a tourist perspective or a hospitality perspective. And so now I don't, I don't know, I'd still, you know, I still dream about my kids, soon to be plural, playing in a street with no cars. Like because that's, that was my like formative years is like, you know, I always use the last time you watch Wayne's World.

[B]

Great movie.

[A]

So like there's a scene near the beginning where the game, yeah, game off. One car stop and they stop for like two seconds and they come back. That was my childhood. Like, like not exactly like that. And I, I liked my childhood. Like I, I thought it was good. Skinned my knee enough times, broke enough bones like just about just the right amount. And like New York, I was like, oh my God, New Yorkers are weird and like they're like so eccentric and like don't have a street smart about them and so like, I don't know. Hopefully my opinion will change over the course of the my kids childhoods. But so yeah, I thought for sure I'd have long since left but you.

[B]

Know, well, New York gets into your blood. I think it does.

[A]

No, it's intoxicating in all sorts of ways, for sure. Like, so now, you know, whereas I was convinced I would never raise a family in New York City, now I'm, like, trying to figure out, would I be okay spending six weeks away, six months away. I don't know. Like, but I love you. But I. Does make me feel like, again, I've never feared for New York City in my life in terms of, like, a city or people or whatever, but I am, like, you know, the one thing about the Night Market, I always say, is, like, we've grown into our relevance every year that goes by, right? The affordability becomes. Somehow keeps topping the charts in a weird way. But, like, I've actually never. My nearly 20 years in New York now, like, haven't ever felt it. Like, I feel like it is now. Like, and you. You probably have a much better perspective on that. But it feels like you can see the divides, like, the sort of chasms opening up as you, like, walk through New York City on a daily basis in terms of, like, affordability, the haves and have nots. And that's kind of frightening to me. Like, outside of politics, outside of all that stuff, like, it feels like there is a growing gap between those who can be here and those who can't. And that is, like, all of a sudden scaring me in a way that, like, I'd never felt that before.

[B]

Yeah, it sucks. And, you know, it's so funny because you see what always happens, right? So Manhattan becomes unaffordable, and then all of a sudden, Brooklyn becomes unaffordable, and then Queens and one day, Staten Island. Yeah, Staten island will be the last. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating, John. I look forward to coming. I'm actually really excited about coming.

[A]

So excited to have you.

[B]

I mentioned to you both before we started to record, my wife is a street photographer of some note. And when I told her about it, she's like, how cool is that? And that both of us had not seen it. I feel I'm a bit embarrassed.

[A]

No, no, it's like, in terms of. I'm never fearful for how many people come to Night Market, because there's probably legit 4 or 5 million New Yorkers who've still never heard of it, which is great. Like, in terms of an audience, like, that's enough for another decade. Like, in terms of novel.

[B]

Well, we have an odd last question for all of our guests, and it is this. We're going to wave a magic wand and we're going to make you, the emperor of the world, you can't kill anyone, you can't put anyone in a re education camp, but what you can do is we're going to hand you a magical microphone and you could say two things into it. That everybody on the planet, whenever their next morning is, is going to wake up. And the two things that you said they're going to think were their ideas and they're going to go further. They're going to say, you know what? Unlike all those other great ideas that I got in the shower when I first woke up, but I never acted on them, I'm actually going to act on these two ideas starting today.

[A]

The first one I'd probably say is, like, be nice. I'm like, I don't know if it's because I'm kind of a Southerner at heart, but like, etiquette and manners we talked about earlier is like, super important to me. And I feel like it's a dying thing, especially in New York City. And like, I'm not sure New York City ever had it, but like, it feels worse these days. And I, and I sort of, I think I mean that in all sorts of ways. Like I, I reluctantly have a car in New York City and like, you know, double parking. It's just like a terrible thing, like, everywhere. Anyway, I think one is be nice, like in every aspect of the day, like, whether it's driving or door holding or saying thank you or, you know, whatever line cutting. I don't know. It's the second one. Huh. Maybe. Can that be both of mine?

[B]

Well, you know, theoretically we could take. Be kind and just have basic good manners, right? Like you can get very far in life. I, in fact, I went on a rant about people like, not having manners. Like, good manners can get you into so many rooms and situations. And it's just like they're really basic and you know, like the kids I was talking about in China, right, they all the mainlanders who got really rich, right, Send their kids there to learn manners, because obviously they're seeing that it's probably going to get them a lot further. So be kind, be nice and have good manners. I'll give you a third one, though, if we put those two together.

[A]

Oh, my God. Now act for three. Now, if everyone in the world, including the policymakers woke up and thought, like, let's make sure everyone has healthcare, I think that might be a good one. Right?

[B]

There you go. Because you are incepting the entire population, that will include the Reagan.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

John, thank you so much. Fascinating. I love what you're doing.

[A]

Thank you.