Marc Dennis — Painting the Punchline (EP.293)

Summary

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Infinite Loops | EP.293

Marc Dennis — Painting the Punchline
Host: Jim O'Shaughnessy
Guest: Marc Dennis
Date: December 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed painter Marc Dennis, described as an artist with the mastery of a 17th-century old master dropped into a Ramones concert. Known for hyperreal technique and a sly sense of humor, Dennis discusses the intersection of classical skill, meta-narratives, Jewish identity, dark comedy, teaching, life stories, and why his paintings are as likely to wink at you as they are to awe you. Jim prompts Marc to explore his childhood, artistic journey, the “Rodney Dangerfield” reputation in the art world, embracing meta-humor, and how personal experience and tragedy inform both his art and ongoing memoir.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood Curiosity, Forest Fires, and Early Lessons

• Marc’s forest fire story (01:20–07:51):
  • In second grade, armed with a Hanukkah gift (a magnifying glass), Marc tried to burn a leaf but accidentally started a wildfire.
  • The experience was formative, teaching him about consequence, guilt, and empathy—especially after a firefighter told him he had likely displaced or killed animals:

    “My mother told me...that you love animals. That I’m sure some animals died and have been displaced from their homes. … But it hit hard, like, it. And I never forgot that.” (07:36)

• Transition to adulthood: Marc retains a fascination with fire (cooking, barbecuing), seeing it as a double-edged tool of creation and destruction, a metaphor for technology’s risks and rewards.

2. On Humor, Jewish Identity, and the Metanarrative in Art

• Rodney Dangerfield of the art world (11:16):
  • Marc embraced the “no respect” label, using it to fuel his unique position as a technical master who’s unafraid to be funny or inappropriate “inside the frame.”
• Meta-influence and narrative layers:
  • Childhood cartoons—specifically Wile E. Coyote “painting a tunnel”—sparked his lasting fascination with “art within art, a narrative within a narrative.” (12:27)
• Courbet, Manet, and "Three Jews Walk Into a Bar" (14:53–28:59):
  • A pivotal moment: at the Courbet retrospective, a woman physically blocked his view of “Origin of the World,” catalyzing his obsession with painting the viewer as part of the viewed (the “meta” moment).
  • Created the painting “End of the World” (a woman blocks the viewer’s access to Courbet's painting), blending humor, technique, and experience.
  • Chose to paint “stereotypical” Jews in museum/gallery settings as a playful, provocative commentary on identity—mixing secular and religious signifiers, irony, and pop-culture reference.

    “I'm going to make a painting. It's going to be three Jews walk into a bar. They're actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Courbet. … This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting.” (00:10, resurrected at 26:53)

3. Humor as Survival and Social Commentary

• Discusses the origins of classic jokes (like “Dog walks into a bar” from cuneiform to contemporary stand-up).
• Jewish humor post-Holocaust: Jews dealt with trauma by transforming pain into laughter (the legacy of Catskills and American comedy).

  “The Jews after the Holocaust turned to humor. … It's absolute history. And that's the reason why the Catskills became what the Catskills were.” (24:01)

4. Teaching, Abrasiveness, and Bringing Meta Into the Classroom

(29:03–35:34)

• Marc’s reputation as the “Dark Menace” by students (“Mark Dennis” → “Dark Menace”) stemmed from his intense, sometimes impatient teaching—driven by a mind racing ahead and a tendency toward “nested thoughts.”
• Humor, meta-narrative, and his own ADHD all loop into Marc’s teaching style and art:

  “This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting, like, my thoughts are in a...like I have thoughts in thoughts.” (34:00)

5. Love, Loss, and Art Beyond Punchlines

• Not all work is funny; new projects (“Love Letters” series) focus on love and loss, celebrating life’s carnival with both humor and depth (37:04).
• Humor as a “steam valve”—the ability to say truths safely (“If you’re gonna tell people the truth, you'd better be funny or otherwise they’ll fucking kill you.” — Billy Wilder, 37:37).

6. Balance – In Life and on Canvas

• Lifelong advice from his grandmother: “Everything in moderation.” (40:37)

• How striving for compositional and life balance influences Marc’s art (41:27–42:44):

  “I really do think that good painting starts with good design...once I have the idea...it's always intentions first and then my idea. … It always starts with balance and intentions.”

7. Portraiture, Self-Exploration, and Humanism

• Self-portraits as acts of self-exploration—referencing Raphael, Dürer, and the move toward visual humanism (44:21–47:02).
• The politics of representation and identity in art; consciously using stereotype to subvert stereotype.

8. The Wizard of Oz, Bubbles, and Nostalgia as Meta Motif

• Deep childhood associations with “The Wizard of Oz” and Broadway’s “Wicked” (48:33–54:00); Glinda’s descent in a bubble becomes a recurrent symbol in Marc’s current work.
• Bubbles become “containers of memory,” once again folding childhood, meta, and narrative into visual form:

  “Inside those bubbles are memories of our childhood and of memories that I’m building with my kids...those bubbles hold things.” (54:00)

9. Perception, Reality, and the Man Behind the Curtain

• Discussion of perception, managed realities, metaphor of “the man behind the curtain,” and how everyone’s reality tunnel is different (55:13–59:04).
• Role of intention in art and life:

  “I always start with intent...I have to know what it is for me, personally, is it that I want to reveal, like, the curtain pulling it back? I have to know in my paintings what, what my intentions are so that I can best communicate to a viewer…” (56:15)

10. The Reluctant Artist and Embracing the Call

• Marc confesses art was not an early “calling” but something he fell into (and owned), often as a response to being appreciated for it when young, and as restitution after a youthful brush with crime.

  “I became an artist because I didn’t want to let anybody down because I was appreciated for it. And I thought, okay, I’ll go to art school.” (65:29)

• The journey from arrested adolescence (literally and figuratively) to art professor, then to celebrated professional painter.

11. Memoir, Letters to a Lost Brother, and Story as Survival

• The ongoing memoir project arose from letters written to his late brother Bruce; became self-exploration and storytelling therapy (76:55–78:31).
• Students urged him to collect stories into a book, “Stories from my Professor” (around 80:06).
• Jim encourages publication; both agree writing is as much for self-understanding as for others (81:19).

12. Going All-In: No Plan B, Taking the Leap

• The mode shift: resigning tenure, moving to NYC, going all in as an artist (82:18–89:20).
• Key insight:

  “There is no key to success, but there is a key to failure…trying to please everyone all the time.” (84:15)

• Art world “tribe,” patrons, and the snowball effect after deciding there’s no fallback plan.

13. Love, Loss, Humor, Humanity

• Art as a mirror for humanity—love, loss, comedy, primal urges, the impossibility of pleasing everyone, the necessity of self-acceptance.
• Humor and meta-awareness as twin engines for survival and meaning—both for artist and viewer:

  “I pour this into my art. And that’s obvious, by the way. And I don’t know...if whoever is looking at it is picking up what I’m putting down…I’ll never know. But the reason why I make art is for...entertaining others to find themselves in that work.” (95:37–96:17) “You can’t love others until you love yourself.” (106:41)

14. Favorite Media, Pop Culture, Life as a Catalog of Influence

• Rapid-fire exchanges about movies, TV shows, comedians, and pop culture—Marc and Jim banter through recommendations, analogies (Wizard of Oz, Fight Club, Fargo, Coen Brothers, Brad Pitt, The Matrix, Dr. Strangelove), always circling back to meta-narrative and layered perspective.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On meta-art and control:

  "I’m in charge as the artist. I’m in control of this narrative. … I can make what I want happen, happen by virtue of visuals." (00:10)

• On the Courbet metanarrative:

  “I’m looking at a woman who has no head, but yet there’s a woman in front of me, and all I see is her head. … That’s all meta to me.” (15:01–16:51)

• On love and loss in art:

  "I paint about the celebration of life, but within life there's this incredible carnival ongoing constantly that deals with love and loss." (37:14)

• On striving for balance:

  “Everything in moderation.” — Marc’s Nana Charlotte (40:37)

• On the key to failure:

  “There is no key to success, but there is a key to failure…trying to please everyone all the time.” (84:15)

• On humor and survival:

  "Laughter is the best medicine. It must go back to someone who carved cuneiform." (25:29) "If you’re gonna tell people the truth, you better be funny or otherwise they’ll fucking kill you." (Billy Wilder, cited at 37:37)

• On the role of the artist:

  "I never wanted to be an artist. … I don’t really think it’s a high… profession… We’re entertainers. … I understand the importance in a culture. I just don’t think that artists really can ever take the...higher seat amongst...the hierarchy. Astronauts or neurosurgeons or fighter pilots or...nurses or doctors...we’re making things to look at." (60:45–61:49)

• On catharsis and writing:

  "It became a catharsis. And then I realized, wow, I have a lot more to say than just writing to my brother. Like, it just spiraled. It was a beautiful natural… Like people say, 'be the brook, breathe a stream.'” (81:27)

• On self-love as universal advice:

  “You can’t love others until you love yourself. … People just don’t seem to grasp. … It may be hard to love oneself, but this is something you should strive for.” (106:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---|---| | Childhood forest fire anecdote | 01:15–07:51 | | Fire as metaphor for technology | 08:00–10:52 | | "Rodney Dangerfield" reputation and Jewish humor | 11:16–11:52; 24:01–26:53 | | Wile E. Coyote and nested narratives | 12:27–13:01 | | The Courbet moment and meta-art | 14:53–17:17 | | “Three Jews Walk Into a Bar” | 26:53–28:59 | | Teaching style and “Dark Menace” nickname | 29:03–35:34 | | Humor, seriousness, and new work | 37:04–38:38 | | Reflections on balance | 39:48–42:44 | | Self-portraits & humanism | 44:21–47:02 | | The Wizard of Oz and bubbles | 48:33–54:00 | | Perception and "the man behind the curtain" | 55:13–59:04 | | Becoming an artist, early troubles | 65:29–67:31 | | Writing memoir/letters to late brother | 76:55–78:31; 80:06–81:33 | | Going all-in as an artist; “no plan B” | 82:18–89:20 | | Art, purpose, and humor | 95:37–97:12 | | Emperor question—two wishes for humanity | 106:09–108:21 |

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Tone & Language

Marc Dennis’s style is energetic, profane, discursive, and layered with cultural in-jokes and meta-commentary. Jim balances probing questions with wry asides, sharing Marc’s love for both philosophy and pop culture. Their conversation veers from childhood transgressions to high art philosophy, grounded by warmth, irreverent humor, and candor about suffering, ambition, and the human condition.

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If You Only Remember Three Things:

• Marc Dennis fuses classical skill with meta-narrative and humor, using art to probe identity, trauma, and memory.
• Humor functions as a shield, a tool for truth-telling, and a survival tactic—both in Dennis’s art and worldview.
• Self-acceptance and intentionality are central: "You can’t love others until you love yourself." (106:41)

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[For a full transcript, more highlights, and recommended reading, visit newsletter.osv.llc.]

Transcript

[Jim]

You have the mastery of like a 17th century master, and yet you're doing all of these incredibly, really fun and very meta pieces.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, I'm in charge as the artist. I'm in control of this narrative. Like I can make what I want happen, happen by virtue of visuals. I'm going to make a painting. It's going to be three Jews walk into a bar. They're actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Courbet. The girl stood in front of me. This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting. I thought, holy crap, I'm onto something here.

[Jim]

Today's guest paints like a 17th century old master who got dropped into a Ramones concert with obsessive hyper real technique and a very unserious sense of humor. For years he was the art world's self described Rodney Dangerfield. Please enjoy my conversation with artist Mark Dennis.

Mark.

You didn't hear the introduction that I gave you, but I gotta tell you, it was maybe the most fun one I have done in a really long time. Please, let's start with the forest fire and go from there.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, thank you for the introduction. Even though I haven't heard it yet. I'm sure it's.

[Jim]

It's glowing.

[Mark Dennis]

Glowing. Yeah. Okay, so forest fire. Where the hell I was in second grade, seven years old, living in Sharon. Well, how do you know you didn't flunk? I could have been eight, you know, see you. I'm ready now. Okay, I was seven. Think about this for a minute.

[Jim]

Seven year old, very good research team. And they called that out for Hanukkah the previous.

[Mark Dennis]

I never know. The problem with the Jews is that we have Hanukkah. It's different every year. So I'm going to digress a little bit and talk about this. When I was young, I wanted to start a revolt and say we should have Hanukkah on one day every year so that we would never forget when it's happening, so we could plan, you know, even as little kids. So I had received a magnifying glass for the Hanukkah. And I believe it was December, although, you know, sometimes Hanukkah's late November. Right. Okay. So I got a magnifying glass for Hanukkah. And you know, come summertime or late summer, it was time to use it. Because the sun, if I don't think people are aware of this, but the sun, you know, I'm not sure if it's the exact revolution or what's Happening. But the position of the sun at a certain time of day is just. Speaking of glowing, it just lights up the woods. And I was one of those kids who went into the woods all the time as a regular thing. I just loved going through the woods, turning over rocks, looking at things, breaking branches, you know. So this is like maybe now.

I would say late September.

And I'm on my usual path and I'm in the woods with this guy. Can I say his name? I don't even know if he's dead. I mean, we're. First name is Randy. He lived down the street. He was kind of a. He wasn't as daring as I was, but. But he. He kind of went along and he was a nice companion because he would kind of like, if he didn't do as I said, he would do as I do, and he would join me. So. And I was a very curious, restless kid out of five boys. So I'm in the woods and I have my magnifying glass, and I'm thinking, you know, if I position this magnifying glass just right with the sun's rays, I could burn a hole in a leaf. It's time I try this, you know? Is this camera on? So it's time I try it. And I waited, and, you know, the sun lines up. I mean, I felt like, you know, like I felt both like Superman and Lex Luthor all at once. And the light, the ray of light just hits that magnifying glass, you know, like I could hear angels singing.

And all of a sudden, the leaf starts morphing into this. It's this little hole, this little pinhole of darkness. And then all of a sudden it spread. And then the leaf went and it was gone. I'm thinking, fuck that. Oh, that is wicked cool. I wonder what two leaves would do. Maybe even three. I don't have time to count them. I'm gonna put a big pile. What the. I mean, why waste time? Let's see what's going on here. Sure enough, the leaves caught fire and it spread. You know that term? Oh, it spreads like wildfire, dude. I know. I was there and I shit a turtle when this part of the forest that I was standing in with my buddy Randy just went up. The trees caught, and I realized, you know, it was the time of year. I mean, it was clearly. The leaves were all dry and they were. Everything was changing color very slowly. And I don't know, I got really scared and I started to run because I had to get past the fire to get on the Trail to get out, but it was on fire. And I'm thinking, I gotta. I can't go deeper into the woods. I gotta get back to the house. And I'm like maybe 100 yards in, you know, so. Which is far enough where you couldn't see the house, But I knew what direction, so I had to kinda like run through the leaves. Randy's screaming, you know, we're gonna dive, we're gonna die. Shut up. Follow me, you know. So I made it like some weird circuitous pathway back out to edge of my lawn and ran into the house. Just as I opened that door, I could see my mom in the window. Remember, five boys. She's probably doing something in the sink. I don't know what, cleaning a chicken or something. But she looked out at me and just dropped whatever she had and then saw me come in the side door. Randy ran home and the whole all. And I turned around because I saw her face and she was like just freaking out at something. And I turned around thinking the fire was probably going to go out on its own, but the fricking woods were all lit. I mean, what. It's like, I don't know, like, I don't know, like how people always say, oh, it's like a movie. But this was absolutely like a movie. And I didn't know what to do, But I ran in the house and I ran right past her in the kitchen, and I said, call the fire department. And I ran upstairs in my room and hid under my bed. Now I'm seven years old. You know, I was a cool little kid. I was curious, but I think I really screwed up. So the fire department came, Four engines came up on our lawns, drove, you know. You know that sound, You're a New Yorker. So I'm under my bed thinking, oh, my God, am I in trouble? Maybe they don't know. Maybe they'll just put it out and then not ask any questions. Well, sure enough, man. You ready for this? I'll never forget this. And I always paint about my childhood memories, but I've never really painted about this. I've painted about the experience of knowing that I Displaced animals that I've painted about. But I've never painted about the experience of looking out under my bed and seeing these really sloppy, dirty, muddy, wet boots of the firefighter who my mother let in. And I'm looking out and he goes, mark, I'm up here. Your mother told me this is, you know, Sharon, Massachusetts. So they all say, mark. So he said, mark, your mother sent Me upstairs. Please come out from under your bed. And I said, am I in trouble? He goes, yeah, a little bit. And I'm. So. My dad wasn't home. He was working. My mom evidently stayed in the kitchen. I don't know, maybe they just all watched. You know, it was such. Must have been a hell of a spectacle. I wish I had watched it, but I was, like, you know, a little nervous. So I get out and I sit on the bed with this guy, and he said, you know, just tell me what happened. I explained to him, and then he said, well, you know, I know you feel bad. You should never play with magnifying glasses with dry leaves. You know, you should never really go into the woods with matches. You know, this is really bad. And my mother told me, and this is where it killed me, that you love animals.

Yeah, right. Yeah. So he said, and I just want to let you know.

That I'm sure some animals died and have been displaced from their homes. Yeah, right. What?

But it hit hard, like, it. And I never forgot that. So I have never lit a forest fire since.

[Jim]

Well, that's good.

[Mark Dennis]

But I did learn to smoke when I went to University of Texas at Austin. I learned how to, you know, smoke, cook. Like true barbecue. Yeah. And it always brings back childhood memories of the forest fire. Yeah, I deal with it.

[Jim]

Are you afraid of fire now? No, not at all.

[Mark Dennis]

No. I have a fire pit in my yard. I light it up almost every day. We have blankets. We sit around the fire.

[Jim]

Were you always fascinated by fire?

[Mark Dennis]

Well, I think we all are. Yeah. I mean, humans evolved through. By virtue of harnessing fire. Prefrontal of understanding. Yeah, see, now you're over my head. Of understanding what they could do with fire. You know, think about this. If you were. All right. I mean, I don't know how many species of different hominids there are. I'm assuming 40. I don't know, like Neanderthal, CRO Magnon, Denisovan. So they lived in caves mostly because they had to have shelter. Well, what kept animals from entering the front of that cave? They had to have, you know, sentries.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

They had to have people who didn't get sleep, who watched, you know, some kind of weird bear or whatever, some big snake from getting in and, you know, taking a baby. But when they had fire, they could build. Think about how incredible fire was for early hominids. Right. Okay. I shouldn't say early hominids because it was sort of harnessed during the time of Neanderthals, but after that, they realized oh, my God, I can cook.

Right? So I love fire.

[Jim]

Fire is really interesting because, you know, you see all the debates right now, today about this technology or that technology.

[Mark Dennis]

Or all of that kind of stuff. We should ban it.

[Jim]

No, we should do it really fast.

And the fact is, all technology and fire is a fucking great thing.

[Mark Dennis]

Wait, ban what? What are you talking about?

[Jim]

Well, like, the current debates going on about AI, about all of that kind of stuff, right? And one of the things that I think about all of our innovations, like right now, if we didn't invent fire, well, we wouldn't be sitting here, because the point about fire is when you cook your food, guess what happens. Brain development prior to cooking food. The prefrontal cortex, which is the executive function of the brain, wasn't there. Literally was not there. And so the ability for us to cook our food is what created, you know, Homo sapiens sapien.

[Mark Dennis]

I love the way the scientists keep going, man. I like it. Yeah, I love this. This is what I listen to mostly on podcasts when I'm painting.

[Jim]

And. And so instead of saying, ooh, this is really dangerous, what do we do? We create fire departments, fire alarms, fire trucks, firemen who can guilt you when you're seven and tell you you've just displaced a lot of animals. Right? So we always figure out a way to use the technology. But I want to segue to your art, because.

I got to tell you, the person we work with, Ariel Meyerowitz, showed us your art.

[Mark Dennis]

She's great.

[Jim]

So are you. We are right now looking at acquiring some of your stuff. Let's talk a little bit about it, because I love your attitude. You've always. Or you don't anymore, but you used to call yourself the Rodney Dangerfield of the art world.

Which, yeah, you did. And I love Rodney number one. I think he's hysterical. And you are also hysterical, like putting Hasidic Jews in front of the mene. Okay, where'd you get the idea? I. It's a great painting, by the way.

[Mark Dennis]

Thank you.

[Jim]

Because the other thing, for everyone listening and watching, at least to my eye, you have the mastery of, like, a 17th century master. And yet you're doing all of these incredibly really fun and very meta pieces. Talk to me about it.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, first of all, thank you, but you're too kind. 17th century master. You know, I always. I often thought about having a drink with Caravaggio or hanging out with Vermeer, Rembrandt. Mostly Velasquez, you know, because I could speak Spanish. So I'm I'm. I'm into the meta narrative even as a kid. I will tell you this, if I may. It hearkens back when I watched Roadrunner. You know, Mimi loved Wiley E. Coyote. Even back in the day. I didn't know he had a name while. Right. W, I, L, E. Yep. E, period Coyote. Which I don't think anybody. I mean, who knows that? I don't know.

[Jim]

I do.

[Mark Dennis]

He would paint, you know, this tunnel in the side of the fricking. Right. You know what I'm talking about. And the. And, okay, so I'm not gonna go any further. Cause I think everybody knows what I'm talking about. But that, to me, blew my mind as a kid. And I had talent as a kid. Like, I could draw pretty well. I always worked at my sketches. I always drew things. But every time I watched that cartoon, I thought, what is going on here? Like, what? Because there was so much art. There was art within art. It was a cartoon within a cartoon. It was a narrative within a narrative.

[Jim]

Totally.

[Mark Dennis]

And that's what got me nested.

[Jim]

Narratives.

[Mark Dennis]

Fast forward. Fast forward. Through art school, I really wanted to learn how to paint like an old master. That was my initial. I mean, Chardin was really my initial love for learning how to paint. And Monet. Like, I really loved Impressionism, but I knew I wanted to get more realistic with each. With each attempt. So I went on from Chardin to looking at Cararaggio and Velazquez and mostly Titian, who I think is the greatest painter that ever lived. I don't think that's even a debate anymore. So fast forward. You know, when I'm making art as a professional, I'm thinking about my childhood. I'm thinking about that tunnel that was painted on the side of the rock, where obviously, you know, the roadrunner would go through it, and then the coyote would run to it and he'd slap against. And you're thinking, okay, well, I'm in charge as the artist. I'm in control of this narrative. Like, I can make what I want happen, happen by virtue of visuals. And I thought, wow, this is really what art's about. Like, not just mimicking, like, hanging up a dead bird in my studio, which is what I did almost every day, I painted dead animals, dead birds. I would find them even here on the ground. In Lower Manhattan. I found a woodcock. If anybody doesn't know there's a certain time of year where the woodcocks fly into the tall buildings in downtown Manhattan and then drop to the street. They're all over the sidewalk. Maybe like three a day. You could find them early in the morning, because then, you know, the people come out and pick them up. But I would hang them up in my studio and I would draw them. But I wanted to really create paintings that had this overall impact. And I thought, how am I going to do this? Boom. 2005, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I mean, I had been painting up to them up to that point, but I was teaching. You know, I was a college professor. I wasn't really focused on my art career as a professional. It certainly wasn't my only income, and I didn't want it to be, but, you know, I was unsure. 2005, I went to see the Courbet retrospective at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Well, there's a painting by Gustave Courbet.

Which is of a woman. It's called the Origin of the World. It's the lower half of some woman. Now they've released her identity. Back in the day, I didn't know who it is.

[Jim]

I have seen it.

[Mark Dennis]

Right. And it's called the Origin of the World. I don't know how to say it. La Regine du Monde. You know, I have to be French Canadian to know how to pronounce. Yeah. So I knew it was at the show, but it was in a sort of a private room, if you remember. It was like a. They had this separate room built just for that because it was apparently too much for some people.

[Jim]

Right.

[Mark Dennis]

And there was a little notification said if you want to enter, you know.

[Jim]

Enter at your own risk.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Or knowing that there's a painting that was once commissioned by someone. Yeah. Oh, my. You're supposed to follow up with that. With. What's that? Okay. You know, lions, tigers.

[Jim]

Lions and tigers.

[Mark Dennis]

Embarrassing. My favorite movie. But we won't go there. Okay. So I go into this room, and, you know, there's a lot of people in it. It's pretty crowded, you know, And I didn't realize that this painting was commissioned by this Turkish businessman who actually was one of the first people to create these weird, you know, these viewing shows where you put. See women dancing and stuff. And so I walk in and I'm, like, waiting my turn to look at it. It's literally five feet from me on a wall. And the dark. The wall was painted dark. The room was dimly lit. It was really kind of amazing. But it was supposed to be the way it was in the man's house who commissioned the piece. It was supposed to be. It was a red wall. It was dimly lit. And just as it was my turn to stand in front of it, because people were very polite, they would look and they'd move on and they'd realize that there was a person. And just as I stood in front of it, she must have been 19, long brown hair. I know she saw me, but God bless the teenage mindset, like you just. She was so excited. She stood right in front of me and blocked. She was my courbet blocker. She blocked the courbet just as. And I thought, wow, now this is a metanarrative. This is. I'm looking at a woman who has no head, but yet there's a woman in front of me, and all I see is her head. And I'm here to experience what she wants to experience. And yet she was so in her own little world. I'm in my world, but her world is now my world. That's all meta to me. It's all my relationship with that piece. And I thought, this is what I'm gonna paint about from now on. So I went back to the studio. She did move eventually. And I saw the painting. You know, it's a good painting, but it's not his best. But nevertheless, I went back and.

[Jim]

And for listeners and viewers who don't know the subject of the painting, just describe the painting.

[Mark Dennis]

Watch the lower half of a naked woman who I imagine. And I'm again, you know, I mean, I've read about it, but I'm not very good at remembering a lot about historical information. But it's. Evidently they found the upper half recently, maybe seven years ago or something. They found her identity and it was, I think, a woman he hung out with. I don't. I don't really know. But nevertheless, it's a woman who he had painted the lower half with her legs spread. So you see the vagina. You see the origin of the world. You see the origin of the world, which is, you know, naturally about birth. And I thought, well, this is really fascinating and it's really unique. And it's like. It's like almost Courbet and Magritte meet in this painting, which is even more. Yes, I agree, because it plays with what. It plays with this age old inquiry as to what is our relationship to art, not just as an artist, but as a viewer. So I thought, we are all flaneurs, right? I learned that fancy word by reading a book about Manet, and he was a flaneur, like someone who notices details, someone who will recognize the white cuff, you have to admit. Let me. I digress. So you have to reel me in here. But, you know, I don't care anymore when I wear a black suit and I wear an Hugo Boss suit. Right? Cause it's a fuck you to Hitler, you know, because of Hugo Boss being the young, biggest 3 brand in history. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Jim]

They made all the German uniforms.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, so you want. Okay, so thank you. But when I wear that black suit and I see the little white cuff of the shirt sticking out, there's something that goes through me. Like, wow. You know, I feel good. There's something about it. I don't know what it is, but only when I see it on myself and then when I see it maybe on someone else, but you know, where it glitz with a white cuff sticking out of a black sleeve, glistens against like a beautiful silver watch. Like that to me, gets me. And this is what Manet was. So I like the idea that I was looking at details and trying to give the viewer more details. So I'm in my studio and I'm painting a series of women looking at the Courbet. I did one. I couldn't get through the others. I did one painting of a Courbet, went to a really great collection on the Upper east side. He was very happy about it. In fact, he's creating a catalog. Glenn Fuhrman. And it's in the catalog of his collection. And I called it the End of the World because there's a woman's head blocking the vagina. It's my exact experience, the End of the World. And I thought, holy crap, I'm onto something here. Fucking Rodney Dangerfield comes into the playing field. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Like my sense of humor. I can be funny sometimes. My sense of humor came into my high voltage technique, because I work really hard at my technique and I don't want it to be boring. I don't want it to be just about technique. I want it to be about the situation, about the experience. So it's the end of the world, but it's something I experience. So it's that with technique. And I thought, wow, I gotta push this. I'm gonna go with this. Right? So what paintings deal with the metanarrative? Well, there's so many. But then I began to think, wow, what paintings are kind of funny? Or how can I use a painting that could be funny? Like, what is the oldest joke in the world? And I learned it was actually a dog walks into a bar.

[Jim]

Really?

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, look it up. Anybody, look it up. Wikipedia. God bless whoever Created Wikipedia. Cause there's somebody who edits this particular page on this joke that has become my favorite. These are my favorite people. Well, besides my kids, there's apparently. This goes so far back to, like, the Assyrian period where someone had carved on a tablet.

[Jim]

Cuneiform.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Thank you. Cuneiform. Wow, look at you. I'm done here. Okay. Can we. Can I go home now?

[Jim]

No.

[Mark Dennis]

How can I follow up on that?

[Jim]

No.

[Mark Dennis]

Cuneiform. You see those guys on camera? They're armed. I don't see them. I feel them. Oh, I like that you say they're armed. How do you. I am, too. Okay.

[Jim]

So we were going for balance.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Yeah, we knew. Okay, we'll talk about this. Because I strive for balance. This is all I talk about. People are, like, probably sick of me talking about striving for balance, seek peace. Just. Okay, so I'm looking. I'm reading this page in cuneiform. Cuneiform.

[Jim]

Cuneiform.

[Mark Dennis]

Cuneiform. Thank you. You know, all my life, I never knew how to pronounce it. Here I am learning, so I'm done. I mean, we could be done now. And I'm good because I learned something so cuneiform about a dog walking into a bar because dogs were not allowed in bars or whatever the place might be a tea house. I don't really know.

[Jim]

Right.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't remember what I read, but it's definitely online.

[Jim]

Do you remember the joke?

[Mark Dennis]

Dog walks into a bar. It ends right there.

[Jim]

It just ends.

[Mark Dennis]

There's nothing even to it that's funny in and of itself because dogs are not supposed to walk into bars. That's right. But it's apparently, you know, all, you know, carved in cuneiform.

[Jim]

You know how long it took?

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, I'm gonna say cuneiform. All day.

[Jim]

He got too tired to do the punchline.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know. But apparently it. Because, okay, you can read it up. You'll see, and then we'll have a beer later. But then I thought, okay, so what is the joke that we all know? You know? And it evolved throughout history, and it became like. I think it was like a rabbi and a minister or a priest or a Buddhist. I don't know. Like, you know, it could be any three things. Yeah. Why three? I don't know. I don't question it. It's there. I liked it. Three was enough. So I thought, what's going to happen here? You know? Wow. And then I began to think about the nature of identity politics. How do you know a Jew made a Painting. You really don't. Because all my life, I heard one thing. All fucking from Sharon, Newtonville, fucking Danvers. Everybody's like, you don't look Jewish. And I'm thinking, what is this? You know, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in seventh grade? Like, how do you know what a Jew looks like? What do you think we all have Pay us and black cats. And I'm thinking, I didn't know what the. I was a Jew. I was born a Jew, I'm a Jew. I don't know what a Jew. Look. I mean, there's a lot of Jews. I don't know how they look, and I don't know if. But I thought, wow, I gotta really go with the stereotype here. I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna make a painting. Forget the priest, forget the minister, forget the Buddhist, forget the person who carves cuneiforms. I'm gonna. Dude, it's gonna be three Jews walking to a bar. I'm not gonna call it a Jew and a Jew and a Jew. Three Jews get right to the punch, and they're walking into a bar. What's the most famous bar painting in the history of the world? Easily, I can't say it is French. La Folies Bagerie? Oui. Oh, my God. See, I saw Moulin Rouge 14 times with my daughter. Now I know how to speak French. So that painting by Manet, Edouard Manet.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Greatest bar painting in history of the world. Really is so bizarre that we don't know if it's a mirror. Now, I know it's not a mirror, but I always thought it was a mirror and that she was looking out at us and we were projecting ourselves, and she was looking at the guy behind her with the top hat, which oddly enough matches the fedoras of the Chassids, the Satmer, Bobov, Brezlav, whatever faction they're from, whatever sect they're from, you know, there's many. We won't get into that right now. But I thought, okay, how do I deal with this? Do I have them wear streimels? Do I have them wear the fedoras, the black hats, black coats? Well, you know, I did a lot of history. I had 27 cousins that died during the war. Most were murdered in Birkenau, which is Auschwitz ii. And then seven froze to death as partisan fighters in the woods in and around Poland. And I thought, well, there's that, the heroic element of my ancestry, and then there's the fact that I'm a secular Jew observant, nevertheless. But my dad was raised in a yeshiva in Cuba in Havana. My Bubbie and Zadi came from a shtetlen outside Kiev called Drobovich. They were pretty Orthodox, my mother's side of the family, you know, like Jewish Southies, Boston, you know, it's like, Whitey Bulger would not have messed with them. My mother was tough, you know, grew up in Roxbury, man, go visit. And she was secular. Met my dad when he escaped Cuba from Castro. Came to Nantasket beach, met my mom. They hit it off. They got married in three months, you know, God bless them. That will not happen today. So I thought, I have to put together all these elements of my ancestral heritage. Being a Jew, being funny, because I am funny. But, you know, the Jews after the Holocaust turned to humor. And if no one knows that, they know it now because it is absolute history. And that's the reason why the Catskills became what the Catskills were. And the place called the Neville. There's so many. And this is where they all, you know, came out of. And so they all began to emigrate, and they all began to make things funny because humor is what we could turn to. All right. I think today, you know, it wasn't a Jew that said it. Somebody must have said it. Laughter is the greatest medicine. Or laughter is the best medicine. It must go back to someone who carved cuneiform. Maybe it says it in this tablet. You know, laughter is, you know, fuck the dogs is the best. So I thought, I'm gonna make a grand painting. I'm gonna make a grand entry into identity politics. And I'm gonna say, hey, I'm a Jew. I'm here. Check it out. I'm funny. I can paint. I deal with metanarratives. This is my tunnel painting that the coyote ran into and the Roadrunner ran through. So I painted three Jews walk into a bar. They're actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Courbet. The girl stood in front of me, and my three Jews.

Are wearing Burberry jackets or some other weird hip hop coat.

They're like, yeah, we got some money, we're going to spend it. We got some leather jackets. Like, they're not Bekashes. They're not wearing the Hasidic wear. They're not wearing the Lubavitch or the Satmar clothing. They're wearing Burberry. It's a combination of secular and haredi outfits, costumes, whatever the case might be. And the hats vary. And, you know, streamls are naturally worn is like, probably. I don't know. I mean, I know that my Hasidic studio assistant is gonna get upset with me because I'm getting this wrong, but I think there's 10, maybe 10 styles of Streimel Streaml is the fur lined hat. It's usually, you know, it could be ermine, it could be beaver, it could be fake fur could, you know, depending upon who's buying and how they feel and what they want to. How they want to deal with it. But, you know, it's not naturally won on high holidays by married men. You know, being divorced, I figured, you know, I can't wear it. But then I learned as a Cohen and from a certain sect of my Hasidic background, unmarried men could wear their steimels. So I thought, wow, man, I'm learning so much. So it all became compounded in those series of paintings called Three Jews Walk into a Bar. We had a show at a hug from the art world, Adam Cohen. And then, you know, and then after that, it was like a. It was a huge hit. I mean, I mean, sales aside, it was like people began to realize, oh, my God, like, yeah, now. So, you know, it's like a Jew made this painting of being Jewish, but yet also being funny, which is something we all share. And I wanted them to be surrogates for anyone's experience. But going back to my experience with the Courbet, like, that could have been anyone. Yeah. Why? She stood in front of me, but maybe she. Maybe other people stood in front of other people. But those other people who had someone stand in front of them were not artists. Like, maybe they didn't have. Maybe they never watched Roadrunner when they were kids. Okay, I'm done. I am so. That's so exhausting talking about that. I did not expect you to. I didn't know what the hell we were going to talk about. I didn't know you were going to ask me.

[Jim]

We're going to talk about you and your work.

But you also had kind of an odd relationship with the fancy art world here in New York. Meaning that you and I think it's really the origin of calling yourself the Rodney Dangerfield, which is also meta. Right. Because Rodney gets no respect and yet he is so fucking funny. Johnny Carson loves the guy. Has him on Tonight show like every other.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, him and Don Rickles.

[Jim]

Him and Don Rickles. Right. And. And then that changed. Talk about that. Talk about how the what?

[Mark Dennis]

The Tonight Show.

[Jim]

No.

When were you on the Tonight, Jay Leno.

[Mark Dennis]

And who's doing it now? What's his name?

[Jim]

No idea.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know his name.

[Jim]

Yeah, he was on Legacy Media. Down Bad.

[Mark Dennis]

So, wait, so we're talking about Jewish comedians?

[Jim]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about you and your work as an artist. And. And suddenly, like, when I'm going through it, I literally smile and. Or laugh. But you also are an amazing artist. Right. And. And by that, I mean I love the way you build the humor into a serious piece of art.

[Mark Dennis]

Right. Okay. So before I forget, it's in my brain, and it's in response to the frontal cortex. This lobe is pounding going back there. Talk about it or you're gonna forget about it. That's exactly how I live if I don't get it out. So I'm gonna get it out. So pardon me for interrupting, interjecting. Whatever. It's not a TV show. Pardon the interruption. Okay. Sports radio. So I have to say this before I forget. I'm not always funny. No, I know. I have a very serious side.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And I know that sounded defensive. Let me try it again. You know, I'm really not that funny. I mean, humor is great. I love to laugh. I like to. I mean, I'd rather make people laugh than me laugh. I really laugh, actually. But I watch Curb youb Enthusiasm and I might laugh a little bit, but I really don't laugh out loud. Like people who guffaw, God bless them. I wish I could crack up. I don't crack up. But I do smile, I do laugh, I do chuckle. And I like that in my work because that's who I am. I mean, I'm making the paintings. I mean, my personality is going to come out. But there's a very intense, serious sort of. Okay, okay. When I taught college. Think about this. You know how we get nicknames in sixth grade, fifth grade, you know, because every kid's got to, like, call you. Mine was like, mark parks the car in the yard. In the dock. What? Who cares? It's not. I don't. I don't care. Like, there was nothing, but, you know, that's all they had. Yeah, I get to. I'm teaching college.

[Jim]

Lack of creativity.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, you know, there are 50 graders. So I'm teaching college.

And one of my students says, you're the Dark Menace.

[Jim]

That's a really good nickname.

[Mark Dennis]

Why? Why?

[Jim]

Oh, just because, like, why? You tell me.

[Mark Dennis]

My initials are flipped.

[Jim]

Let me change.

[Mark Dennis]

This is how whack.

[Jim]

You didn't love being called the Dark.

[Mark Dennis]

I loved it, but I never in my life. Like, why didn't kids call me that in fifth grade? All you do is flip. All you do is flip. It's like the splash stone. All you do is flip. The initials. Mark Dennis, Dark Menace. Why? No kid came up with it. I never thought of it. And all of a sudden, there's this college kid, he's 19. He's doing a drawing of his hand, and he's like, yeah, you're the Dark Menace. I'm like, what? Why? Because I. No, I wear a lot of black. I wear dark clothes, and I have dark hair, and I'm. I'm kind of. I don't know if it's moody. I'm little. I could be slightly abrasive. My teaching methodologies. I'm a little. In your face. I'm a little loud. But, you know, I mean, I'm teaching.

[Jim]

Okay, wait, we're gonna.

[Mark Dennis]

So when he.

[Jim]

Hang on, hang on. I want to take you back to that because I find that very interesting. What do you mean, abrasive? In your church teaching method. What's abrasive about it?

[Mark Dennis]

I've learned a lot about how patience is a virtue. I didn't have a lot. Let's just say this. I had less patience 20 years ago.

[Jim]

Just like me.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, you know what. When you're playing hockey or you're running for a pass in football.

They tell you the coach always says, don't follow the goddamn baller puck. Get to where you think the puck's gonna wind up.

[Jim]

Exactly.

[Mark Dennis]

So when I'm teaching, I'm one step ahead of everyone, including myself. And I just.

I didn't like it because my methods would be like, come on, man. Like, listen to me again. I'm gonna do this lecture one more time. You know, like, I was kind of a coach.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. And, you know, I can't make them run around the room and do wind sprints because they, you know, are not grasping. A visual art lecture. It's not a big deal, but I was a little. So that, to me, is abrasive. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Okay, you know what? Look, you said cuneiform. I never knew even how what that word was back in the day. So I don't know, maybe. Maybe abrasive is not the right word. Maybe it's like, I was a little impatient.

[Jim]

Yeah. Well, look, so impatience, though, I mean, that's something. I find that a lot.

[Mark Dennis]

It's a flower. That's it. Right?

[Jim]

I mean, you know, it's.

Like when you're young and our type of personality, people take you as impatient and you're really not, what you're just trying to do is get to the next place.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, I mean, that's up for debate. I mean, it's debatable in a sense that I agree with you. I know who I am and I know that as boastful as this may come across, I am very generous with my time, with my efforts, my energy. I am very loving and I am very giving and I am very patient. But yes, to many, it might come across like they don't see that part of me because it doesn't mean it's always there, it's always present. So if I know that deep down and clearly now I'm told I have adhd, so who the hell knows what that even means? But I'm restless as hell, my brain is restless, and I'm always like one step outside of my current thought. So I guess that has to do with the meta narrative too. This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting, like, my thoughts are in a. Like I have thoughts in thoughts. And, you know, I don't even know if that's well explained, but I'm sure there will be many psychiatrists calling me up later saying, do you need an appointment with us? You know, give you the first session for free?

[Jim]

It's. It's called a recursive closed loop.

[Mark Dennis]

Who the hell are you? What? For real? Wait, what? Okay, I don't want to bore. Well, to me it's not boring, but I don't want to, like, get into it.

[Jim]

But no, we won't.

[Mark Dennis]

That's fascinating to me. Okay, so thank you for that, but you've lit a fire.

[Jim]

Make sure that we don't have that fireman coming to chat with us afterwards, though. The thing that is meta about it, at least from my perspective, is ties to humor. So I know a lot of super funny people and I've never yet met a super funny person who wasn't also really smart and very observant.

Like, literally, they're the first, like you drive up a new car, right, the super funny person. You can always count on them to be the one that notices the tiny scratch in the door and points it out immediately. Beautiful car. Shame about that screen.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, I think, I think people who are professional comedians, they definitely lack a filter. Otherwise that flow would not be natural and it wouldn't happen. Because the funniest people, at least in my estimation, and I have, you know, I definitely have A list of who I think is the funniest comedians who I, who I laugh at their humor. They're talking about real situations, things that we've experienced, things that have been the things that have maybe slid back and forth between the anxiety spectrum and the comfortable spectrum. There's a thin line. You kind of cross that line, you kind of blur the boundaries. It's really important to make sure that humor is used in a certain way so that it does come across.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And in art it's really challenging.

[Jim]

Yep.

[Mark Dennis]

So, you know, like I said earlier, a lot of my art is not funny. And I'm working on a whole new series now called Love Letters.

You know, about love and love loss. Because this is pretty much what I paint about. I paint about the celebration of life, but within life there's this incredible carnival ongoing constantly that deals with love and loss.

And the new ones are kind of serious, but you know, they're all so beautiful and robust and you know, everything has deeper meaning. But they're not necessarily punchline funny like three Jews.

[Jim]

Yeah, and that's the other thing about humor though, right? Like, humor is the steam valve as far as I'm concerned. In other words, it lets people say things that everybody's fucking thinking anyway, but say them in a funny way. Billy Wilder said that if you're gonna tell people the truth, you better be funny or otherwise they'll fucking kill you.

[Mark Dennis]

Wow, that's pretty abrasive.

[Jim]

It is, but there's a lot of truth to it.

[Mark Dennis]

I, I agree with you on this. I think again, everything is debatable. But you know, there's schools of thought. I mean, right. There's certain groups of people that think alike, that there's like minded people and then there are people who totally disagree with us on this. And I guess that's how, you know, I've always told my kids, you know, surround yourself with like minded people and you know who you can inspire, they can inspire you, motivate each other. And that's life. Like, that's why we're pretty much tribal. Deep down.

[Jim]

We all are.

For the most part. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, they've done studies where they literally take a group of people, randomly put them into tribe A or tribe B, and then like overnight everyone who's, they never knew each other, but everyone in tribe A is, Tribe A is the best. Everyone in tribe B, Tribe B is the best. I think a lot of this, like, if you want to foment a lot of emotional energy that gets you nowhere, just Lean into tribalism. Right? That's a horizontal fight. Let's have Boomer against Zoomer. Let's have pro.

[Mark Dennis]

Whatever.

[Jim]

Nuclear energy. Anti nuclear energy. There's always going to be two tribes.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. Going against each other again. My. My brain.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Back to balance. We talked about this. Maybe we talked about it before we got on air. Is it called on air?

[Jim]

Yeah, on air.

[Mark Dennis]

It's weird because everything's air. I mean, we're all on air. We're walking on air. Walking on sun. We talked about balance. I seek balance. Yeah, I think we did talk about it. Seek balance. Seek peace.

My grandmother, my Nana Charlotte, my mother's mother, said to me she always wanted us out of the house, by the way. I always thought she liked apple juice. But then I learned later in life, she was drinking whiskey when we visited her in the afternoons in Randolph Mass. Randolph. Her house is like a bright salmon pink or orange, whatever the color is. And she would say, get out. Get it. Go out and play. You know, like, go in the yard.

[Jim]

Yeah. And in the yard.

[Mark Dennis]

One day, you know, I wanted to bring stuff into the house to clean in her sink.

You know, like rocks, you know, to find the. She's like, no, no, no, no. And she got a little upset with me, and then she realized, you know, because my mother's like, ma, don't get mad at my kid. You know, he's just. Just curious. And I remember my grandma walked over to me later, and she says, mark.

Everything in moderation.

Just go through life everything in moderation. I'm freaking fourth grade. I'm like, what are you talking about? I had no idea. Now I get it. And I'm telling you, that is the best advice, one of the little snippets of advice that I've received in my life that I still to this day, think about. So I believe that we can. We can work together if we understand that we have to accept one another's ideas, constructs. As long as there's no hate and divisiveness within those ideas, we should be able to. You know. God, I'm gonna sound so. Like I'm at a Dead concert, you know, like we. We can get along. Yeah, I like the Dead, but you know what I mean. The concerts, you know.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

People are kind of weird.

[Jim]

So how does that transfer over to your art?

[Mark Dennis]

I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore.

[Jim]

You were on balance.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm out there.

[Jim]

You're on balance.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm out there. I just lost my balance. I tipped over.

[Jim]

I'm Rebalancing.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, now what was your question?

[Jim]

The question was we were talking about balance.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. Composition.

[Jim]

Composition.

[Mark Dennis]

So let me say this. So as a former college professor and I still mentor people, and if they want to talk about composition, I'm all about it. But I really do think that good painting starts with good design. I really believe, and I don't know if it's necessarily obvious, but I think a well balanced painting. And again, my balance is my. My lane. Like, I know how to. I know how to drive in my lane, you know, where like someone like Franz Kline, who I loved in art school, loved looking at his work with de Kooning, who I think is one of the greatest painters that ever lived, even though he's not as, you know, soutine. It's Titian and Soutine. But. But, yeah, go figure. But, you know, they would look at balance differently. But to me, I take so much time to figure out my composition before once I have the idea and then I want to, I think about my intentions and then I come up with an idea. So it's always intentions first and then my idea. And then I think about how am I going to construct this idea? How am I going to make it visually appealing? It always starts with balance and intentions.

[Jim]

Talk to me a bit about that.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, you know, like I said earlier, you know, how do you know a Jew made a painting when it's not easy? Like if there was a show on self portraiture and everybody, you know, was painting themselves and they. You could identify with that person, you know, it's. I thought, how would I do it? I mean, how do you do it? You have to work in some stereotypical sense if you know, because there might be. Look, it's a problem. It was a problem that I wanted to challenge because it was a. It's something that I just had to tackle because I had never tackled it before. I had always done my self portrait. Through art school, everybody had assignments. We had like 20 self portraits. Paint yourself this week. See you on Monday. You know, that was like a Tuesday assignment you had all weekend and you come in the next day and everybody would hang their work up. But we all knew each other. But if I would like go to like an exhibition in a museum and I would see self portraits, I didn't know who was what or who stood for what or what they were. Unless you had to read the placard. And I thought, I don't want to read placards. I don't want to understand, like why Morillo Mino and the Met maybe painted someone and you know, if they were in a certain costume, you could identify with maybe their culture, but you never could identify much more with their race unless, you know, you could see it on the skin tone or. And I became challenged by that. But being a white guy, you know, I thought, how do I paint myself as a Jewish? So that's when I went all in on the stereotype where I thought, I'm gonna paint the Jew. So people say, oh, that's a Jew. Like that's not Mark, that's a Jew first. And I thought I'd have some fun with it. And that's how it all started. So that's, that was the impetus. Yeah. I don't even know if I answered your question. I don't remember the question.

[Jim]

I'm interested in portraits in general, especially self portraits. Right. Because I do think that like Raphael's portrait of a young man still missing, looted by the Nazis, ace of spades on the Monuments Men deck of cards to try to find it. If you really look at that portrait.

I think I see why the Nazis wanted that so badly. Because what I see is a very self confident Raphael staring out. And you got to put it in context, right.

Back then, everything was you as an individual are nothing. God through the intermediaries of priests and rabbis. And everyone else is going to tell you, you gotta deal with the intermediary. Right. But when you look at pictures, unfortunately, because it's still missing, when you look at the portrait of a young man by Raphael, what I see is like humanism looking back at me. I see a guy saying, you know what? No, you don't need your kings, you don't need your generals. We humans can do a lot of shit and get it really done. Right. And then Durer, the famous German of the Renaissance, he painted himself in the Salvador Mundi. The Christ pose never left his gallery because he was terrified of getting like drawn and quartered hung, all of that. But like the difference between those two portraits is striking to me.

[Mark Dennis]

And think about, they were very young at the time.

[Jim]

Very, very young.

[Mark Dennis]

So these are young brash men full of chutzpah.

[Jim]

Yep.

[Mark Dennis]

Sexuality aside, they were young men.

[Jim]

Yep.

[Mark Dennis]

And they were at the, they were battling for positioning. And so to paint oneself as a Christ figure, that takes balls, right? It takes, yeah, we yidds prefer chutzpah, but I'm gonna go with. And then Raphael, of course, naturally you said God priest. And then there was Michelangelo who were, you know, from what I understand, I don't know if it was Vasari, However, I read these notes. Raphael would sneak into the Sistine Chapel and he would look up and he would make notes of his own sketches of his own and present them first in the School of Athens, you know, speaking of humanism. And he would present these figures before the public knew that Michelangelo had actually created them. I mean, this is. That's balls.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And everybody knew it back then. And then he died young, unfortunately, but very young. Yeah.

[Jim]

He was also an orphan. Yeah, he was also an orphan.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, I don't know. We all have stories. We all have obstacles. We all have challenges. Yeah. That's a fact.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So orphan aside, whatever. I can't comment on that.

[Jim]

Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel. Don't you love how he put all of his enemies in hell?

[Mark Dennis]

I thought we were talking about the Ninja Turtles.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[Jim]

My kids.

[Mark Dennis]

Can you name them?

[Jim]

Raphael, Michelangelo.

Donatello. And who am I missing?

[Mark Dennis]

Lisa.

[Jim]

Yeah. Oh, Da Vinci.

[Mark Dennis]

Leonardo Leonardo.

[Jim]

Right, right, right. I haven't seen that.

[Mark Dennis]

I have a great story about that, but we're not gonna have time for this today. We'll do.

[Jim]

We got a lot of fun.

[Mark Dennis]

We'll do part two from hell later.

[Jim]

But did you like that work, by the way? Life in Hell? What's his. What's the artist? He's a cartoonist.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know what we're talking about.

[Jim]

He went on Matt Groening. He went on to do the Simpsons.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, of course. What'd he do? Life in Hell. I don't know.

[Jim]

His original work book is hysterical. And it's really. I don't really.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, with the little rabbit. Yeah. Yeah. So I never read it. I never. I never looked at it. Read it. But I do know the figure. Read it because it's. Yeah. Can I go now?

[Jim]

No, but I'll send you a car.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Yeah. I understand. That's how he started. Yeah, I understand.

[Jim]

Yeah. Talk about meta.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, like, what's the word? Like, when you hear the word pang.

[Jim]

Pang.

[Mark Dennis]

Like a paint. The first pangs of love. Is that a word? Pain.

[Jim]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So, you know, I'm asking you for. Yes, for validation.

[Jim]

I'm your.

[Mark Dennis]

So I'm nine years old.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

At the time, we were living in.

Sharon because then we had moved to Puerto Rico for four years. Another. Another story. Yeah. We went from, like, icy ponds, skating to, like, you know, catching lizards and palm trees and mangoes. So the wizard of Oz comes on. It's around Thanksgiving time, if I remember correctly. It's always on during Thanksgiving time. Holidays. Yeah. I remember I might have been like a week before. And it's on tv, and my mother says we, let's all watch it. Five boys.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm like, okay, wizard of Oz. I mean, I never heard. I didn't know what the hell was going on. You know, nowadays comes up and pops up in your phone. Like, you could know like a movie from, like, you know, you could know the movie M with Peter Laurie on your phone by watching Tick Tock and you'll know of it. But great movie. Yeah, but the wizard of Oz, I didn't know. But my mother said you like it. It's. You know, it's part black and white, part color. You know, it's fantasy. And I'm like, okay, whatever, turn it on.

So we're watching it and everything's good. You know, the gingham dress is cute. The bows in her hair are cute. Dorothy, you know, it's all in black and white. They're in Kansas, you know, like.

So it wasn't. It was just okay. It was interesting.

And then she starts singing. I'm nine years old.

I really don't know what happened.

I fell in love. The first pangs of true adoration or love for a girl, just.

[Jim]

Overwhelmed.

[Mark Dennis]

Washed over my soul. Yeah. Which I don't really have. But nonetheless, I felt like, wow. And I remember distinctly my brothers were so bored. They were so ready to leave the room. Anyway, I could sense that, you know, like, I wasn't the jerky kid. Like, I love my family, but I want. I. And I said, can. Do you guys? You really want to watch this? My dad couldn't wait to get out of the room. I mean, he wasn't into it.

And my mother probably had shit to do. And, you know, my brothers were younger, and except for one older one, she probably had to put them to bed, like, in a half an hour. And she goes, why? I said, well, can I watch this by myself? She's still singing while I'm asking her. And I'm like, falling in love with this. With Dorothy. Yeah. True story. And they left the room.

[Jim]

They did, really?

[Mark Dennis]

And I watched the wizard of Oz alone, like this, you know, legs up, knees bent on my tummy, like so. Norman Rockwell. So, like. And after that, it became like the movie. Because with every pathway, every turn and every twist of fate, I really related to it. The heart, the brain. They already have it.

[Jim]

Yep.

[Mark Dennis]

They just don't know it.

[Jim]

Exactly.

[Mark Dennis]

And the wizard is just you pulling your own strings. What? I mean, there's so Many ways of interpreting this.

[Jim]

Oh, totally.

[Mark Dennis]

So. And recently, my daughter and I go to Broadway shows once or twice a month. This is what we do.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

And we had never seen.

Wicked.

[Jim]

Wicked, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So popular, you know? I mean, we hadn't seen Pirates since she finally said, let's go see that. Like, we always saw other shows. Gypsy, you know, like Moulin Rouge, like I had mentioned 14 times. But we go to see Wicked and, you know, Glinda. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Jim]

I do.

[Mark Dennis]

It was. It was. It was awesome. But there's no Dorothy. In fact, Dorothy's, like, shunned. She's like, shit in this show. She's like, in a fricking basement. Yeah. And I don't care. It's not about Dorothy. It's about the nature of Glinda and the Wicked Witch and the fact that her sister died and all this weird stuff. And the one thing that I didn't know all my life. All my life, having watched the wizard of Oz probably a hundred times, maybe.

[Jim]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

All my college roommates thought I was gay in school, you know, because I'd be like, dudes, wizard of Oz is coming on. They're like, what?

I had no idea she was an icon in the queer industry.

[Jim]

Did you introduce them to the Pink Floyd version of the wizard of Oz?

[Mark Dennis]

What's that?

[Jim]

Oh, come on. You've watched the wizard of Oz a hundred times and you've never put the Pink Floyd album on at the very beginning?

[Mark Dennis]

What are you talking about?

[Jim]

Syncs up.

[Mark Dennis]

Are you joking?

[Jim]

I'm not joking.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, we're not going there. Roger White's an asshole, so maybe back then he was.

[Jim]

Okay, we won't go there, but.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, yeah, because that'll ruin it.

[Jim]

Yeah. Okay, so keep going.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, yeah, I'll be right there. I gotta go on my ride soon. Okay. So.

I didn't know that she was an icon for gays, whatever the case might be.

[Jim]

Right, right, right.

[Mark Dennis]

I remember distinctly sitting there with my daughter in the theater and. And Glinda is descending in a bubble.

I do not. I don't remember this from the movie.

[Jim]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. But this is a good example of how my brain works.

[Jim]

I see.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. I focus in on things and I hone in on things, and I become. And I harness the energy of those certain things. And I'm so above the details of those things that attract me that I'm not really paying attention to other things. Albeit here I am today painting bubbles. This is. I'm coming full circle about the Meta Narrative.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

About my childhood experiences. Yeah. And I said to my daughter later, I said, wow, Glinda descends in a bubble. That's bizarre. She goes, yeah. I'm like, but I'm painting bubbles now. And inside those bubbles are memories of our childhood and of memories that I'm building with my kids. Like the house we live in now, our backyard in Ithaca. Like, those bubbles hold things. Things. But I learned that the bubble that she descends on is sort of this magical, effervescent floating device that is heavenly. It's about goodness. And I'm telling you, this show gets deeper and deeper every time I think about it. And every time I. Okay, well, that's my point. Like, it's just one of those movies that allows you to dig in your heels, love it for what it is, and then you look it. You know what it's like. You know, I never liked the term. I like onions. I like onion rings. I like them sauteed, fried, whatever. But, you know, I don't like the idea of a metaphor with something is like, you peel it back like an onion. Like, I never. Like. Nobody likes doing that. Right. It's this crispy paper wrapping that. It's gross and it smells and you got to wash your hands all the time. We gotta find something else that has. That you can peel. But the idea is that this movie is truly the biggest, sweetest onion of all movies.

[Jim]

Totally. The other thing about that movie that is so, again, meta is it's kind of like they're telling you, hey, you're living in a managed reality.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Bubble.

[Jim]

A bubble. And. Complete with the. The. The God. In this case, the great and powerful Oz, where they project the big picture right of him, and they're all shaking and everything. And then Toto goes and pulls the curtain, and we see the very pedestrian, real Oz.

[Mark Dennis]

Right. Toto, a dog. Right.

[Jim]

Toto, a dog who people would presume.

[Mark Dennis]

Albeit, you know, human's best friend, nonetheless doesn't have a sense of logic like we do. But it did. It does. It sensed something that we were, like, missing.

[Jim]

Yep. And it's. I'm fascinated by it because we do sort of live in a world where we pay attention to the projection and we pay very little attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, well, this has to do with intention.

[Jim]

Yes.

[Mark Dennis]

And this, if I may, please. Because I don't think I ever answered your question about intention. I always start with intent because I have to know what it is for me, personally, is it that I want to reveal, like, the curtain pulling it back. I have to know in my paintings what, what my intentions are so that I can best communicate to a viewer, you know, the projection in the wizard.

[Jim]

Of Oz and how many different interpretations, like for people who talk to you.

[Mark Dennis]

By the way, I just have to say, I mean, I like a lot of movies. I'm not saying that the wizard of Oz is the greatest movie. It's just one of my. It's my favorite.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Because it's just, you know, it's love, it's delight, it's death, it's loss. Again, it's love and loss.

[Jim]

It has.

The thing that intrigues me about it is, as you just said it, literally you can just keep going layer by layer through that movie. And it really is a. It's almost philosophical if you really love that movie and watch it enough. Like each time I watch that movie, I see something else.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, some. Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm saying. It's like the Onion. But someone said to me one time, mark, you know, she's having a dream. It's a dream. I'm like. You could perceive. You could think that if you want. Yeah. I never read the L. Frank Baum books. I don't know how many there are, but I have not. So I don't really know what his true intentions were and how best it was personified in the, in the movie. But nevertheless, you know, I'm visual and when I read, I fall asleep. So I can't read the books and I'm not going to read the books because I'm happy with my. The results of how I feel from the movie. But I don't believe it was just a dream. Like nothing is just something. Nothing is as it appears to be. That's what I truly believe in life. Yes.

[Jim]

And perception therefore becomes paramount. Right.

[Mark Dennis]

Speaking of Paramount Pictures movies. Yeah.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I think they own the rights now to the movie. Did you mean to say that. Are you getting paid to talk about Paramount?

[Jim]

No, I am not.

[Mark Dennis]

Now you are.

[Jim]

I, I mean that people.

Can only see what they expect to see oftentimes. And that.

Perception is that filter. Right.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, I agree.

[Jim]

And. And a lot of people don't understand that we all have different kind of reality tunnels that we look or reality goggles that we look at the world through. That's why you can have two people, they could be sitting right here. Right. And we could both have glasses on. And my reality glasses would see probably.

[Mark Dennis]

A somewhat similar what's happening, you know, with VR.

[Jim]

Yeah. But actually they. There was A test done. A guy was teaching a class and the class was at the end of a long corridor, right? And the first time around, the first time the students are in the class, he goes, hey, did any of you pay attention to, like, what was on the walls and stuff and in the hallway on your way down here? And a lot of people were like, yeah, yeah, I think I did. And he goes, okay, your first assignment is to draw what you remember seeing in that hallway. And they did. And what he found extraordinary was none of the drawings were similar. Right. So some have a lot of posters and a lot of, you know, art pieces on the wall on the left. Some have lockers, some, the have different kinds of lighting and everything. And he's just like it. All, all of our perceptions vary. And when you understand that, it makes you a lot more understanding and a lot less binary. But I, I think that that's kind of also one of the keys to great artists, right? You, like, you see the world in a way that regular people don't.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't have a comment about that.

[Jim]

No comment?

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. I mean, I have a lot to say, but I don't, I don't, I don't know how to sum that up. I don't, maybe I don't share that perspective.

[Jim]

Oh, well, tell me.

[Mark Dennis]

I, I.

You know, people who know me really well have heard this many, many times. I never wanted to be an artist. Yeah, I don't really think it's a high, what's the term for it? Not profession, but it's, you know, I like what I do. I'm status hype. I'm very blessed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm lucky, right? I mean, I work so much. I paint every. I work a lot, but I don't need a pat in the back. I just do it because I don't have anything else to do. I mean, I like what I do. I think what I do is good.

[Jim]

I think I feet like, you can't like.

[Mark Dennis]

But I'm not saving lives. I'm not like, right. Bringing someone back to life. I'm not feeding people who are hungry. It's just a thing. But, you know, we always have art. I understand the importance in a culture. I just don't think that artists really.

Can ever take the, what's the word? You know, like the higher seat amongst in the hierarchy. Astronauts or neurosurgeons or fighter pilots or pilots or home or nurses or doctors or, you know, like, we're entertainers.

I don't see how anybody can argue that what are we doing? We're making things to look at. Granted, from that point, it goes on to something else. Maybe people who don't. Maybe people who are visually impaired aren't seeing things, but they can still feel art or be talked about it, or understand it or listen to music. Mind you, in my estimation, as miserable and as constipated. Whereas IBS Beethoven was, from what I'm reading, he had IBS and wasn't called ibs, but this guy, you know, he was miserable. Yeah.

[Jim]

Also deaf at the end.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, he turned deaf. Yeah. Goya went deaf around the same time. That's right. There's a lot of deafness in. Because, you know, they weren't vaccinated.

So this is a higher seat for me. I mean, writing and playing music to me is almost. It's so outside my realm of possibility. I think I could sing. Okay. I've been singing. I don't take lessons, but I like to sing. My daughter sings really well. Like, the interest that my kids are picking up, the fact that they're so good at certain things, I think, wow, you know, like, when do you determine what you want to be in life? Like, what happens? Like, how do people do. Like, how does Donald o' Connor dance in Singing in the Rain around that room? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, of course.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, you know, my friends are here, but, you know, it's like to me, that's crazy, amazing and I'm not at all talented in that realm, but I'm blown away. To me, they're higher. Like, because I've been drawing since I was a kid. I wanted to be, you know, I didn't think being an artist was an actual thing one could do. Like, I didn't think it was a so called job. You learn all your life. You have to get a job, you have to work, you have to make money, you have to pay rent, need to buy a house. You know, you move on, you reach certain levels of satisfaction and success. But, you know, I wanted to be a zoologist or a naturalist or a park ranger or an entomologist. Like, I'd be looking at insects all day. I'm good with that, you know, including spiders, but. But I didn't because I was not a very good student in school. I mean, I did okay. I flunked art junior year. I mean, I was a mess. You know, I got arrested. I mean, I have a lot of weird stories that kind of detoured me off thinking that I could be something other than an artist. I kind of fell back into it. It was a point where I had to go to court and I had to explain to the judge that I did have ideas of after graduating, otherwise I was going to be sent to a juvenile detention center because of the crimes I committed. And I remember being in court saying, I'm going to be an artist. But I didn't, deep down want to be an artist. I just didn't have anything else to talk about because apparently prior to my arrival in court, unbeknownst to me, I had two people who from the school had written letters on my behalf saying, mark's a good kid, he's super talented. He's even on the yearbook committee. That was embarrassing for me to hear that because she read the letters in court. I'm like, yearbook committee. You're not supposed to talk about that, you know, because, you know, like, that was like the geek squad before there was a geek squad with, you know, best Buy. But I went. I was on the yearbook committee because I was asked to be on it because I could draw the cartoons for, like, I was the Matt Groening, whatever his name is of the yearbook. Like, I could draw cartoons, characters of people. And, you know, it was fun. I did it because I was appreciated for it. But when I got to court, she said, listen, and you know, I see here that you're pretty talented. You must be, because if you're on the yearbook committee, I'm like, what? That was this tough, long haired 15 year old who was so, so, So I became an artist because I didn't want to let anybody down because I was appreciated for it. And I thought, okay, I'll go to art school.

[Jim]

So. So let's talk about that. Right?

Why did you find yourself.

[Mark Dennis]

This just became a therapy session.

[Jim]

No, it's not. Why did you find yourself in court? I've been arrested when I was a teenager. Just so you know, don't feel bad about it.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, I don't. I really don't feel bad about it. I just don't know. I, I, I. It was grand larceny.

Okay? I had broken into people's homes.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

And cars.

[Jim]

And what was driving that? Curiosity.

[Mark Dennis]

See, we are in therapy. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Restlessness.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Challenge.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I was good at it. Yeah. I knew bikers in the area that would buy everything off of me. You were an entrepreneur. Yeah, I was. I was like Robin Hood and they gave me lists. Except I didn't wear my underpants on the outside of my pants. Whatever. That. Right. That's a joke about that. Robin Hood. Okay, so tights. Men in tights, whatever that is.

[Jim]

Tights.

[Mark Dennis]

That's right. Okay. So I wear track pants now, most days, but I don't. So I. One day I got a list from some people who said, can you. I wanna. I want like a, you know, like a Makita chainsaw or a freaking. You know, like, they gave me a list. Of shopping lists. Yeah. Of things to steal.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

And I did it. I satisfied that I got paid. I wasn't just paid for that. Like, I mean, I was paid for my drawings. A lot of kids in high school wanted me to draw, like, their girlfriends or their mom or their dad or their dog. A lot of dogs, you know, for gifts. And so I made money. I was an entrepreneur in a lot of ways, but I didn't, you know, being art, I mean, being an artist, to me, it felt like there wasn't. It wasn't fulfilling. Like it didn't make sense. Unless it was comic book.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

Because I loved comic books.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

A superhero. See this? Full circle, baby.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

That superhero was something that really interested me. The idea that you could battle evil, whatever that might be.

[Jim]

Right.

[Mark Dennis]

Evil could be sadness. Evil could be Lex Luthor, as we had initially talked about. At least I think I mentioned Lex Luthor in conjunction with Superman. The idea that we have polarities and dualities within us. Like, we both have this sense of being. Which is why the name Dark Menace really blew my mind. Because it really fits. Yes. You know, so. And that's my Instagram handle at Dark Menace, because I. It's. Now I use it. Do we call it a handle on Instagram?

[Jim]

Yeah, I think they do.

[Mark Dennis]

Profile name. I don't know what it's called.

[Jim]

Well, we were also talking about the.

[Mark Dennis]

Fact that you were all written and created by Jews post Holocaust.

[Jim]

Yes. Okay, I'm gonna. Let's put you back in court. And you're. You're. You've got the letters of recommendation. Did. Did you. You obviously you loved art because you were making money doing.

[Mark Dennis]

I love comics and I loved cartoons.

[Jim]

Who's your favorite comic book?

[Mark Dennis]

What do you mean, who's my favorite comic? Like stand up comic? Yeah. You mean like. Wait, I'm confused now. Cause I'm talking comic books. So Jack Kirby.

Steve Ditko.

John Buscema, you know, Dick Ayers. I mean, I love, you know, Kane. I mean, you know, Jack Kirby to me is like the Beethoven of comic book art. Yeah. I don't even know if that's debatable anymore. Like, I mean, who wouldn't? I mean, he's the. He's the guy. Yeah. Joe Kubert, I mean, if you know what I'm talking about. But I mean, so, you know, he did Sergeant Rock, which was one of my favorites. But I loved Batman. And he wasn't, you know, a superhero in the sense that we know superheroes, technically speaking. He. You know, he had. He was vengeful, but he was also yearning for love all his life. Never found it. Like, I found great identity in his personality and his. I wasn't vengeful. I wasn't searching for love. I mean, I was. I did. Okay. I just wasn't, I guess. Understood the darkness. I understood that this existed in us. I brew. I was a brooding. I brute. I mean, we all. I think we all do. Maybe I could. I don't know what the hell. I don't know anything, but I know that in myself. I would find myself in my. In my room and I felt like I was brooding. Yeah. And I didn't even know what that word meant, but I. Yeah, I was pondering on everything. My thoughts came at me very fast. Yeah, I would always feel anxiety about certain things and always thought, I need to find a solution to this.

[Jim]

And you're a journaler, though, too, right?

[Mark Dennis]

You are? Well, I used to write a lot. I don't write so much anymore.

[Jim]

Really. Well, why.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. You know. All right. Well, I don't even know the origin of the cats out of the bag. I think it was because the sailors brought the cats on the boat to kill the rats. And then when the cat was out, they realized, oh, there's rats on board. Like, we're. I don't know. What. I don't know the origin. I'm probably. I gotta look it up later. Wikipedia. But the cat's out of the bag, so I am writing a memoir.

[Jim]

Ah. Okay. How's it going? You do know that I have a publishing company, right?

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know anything about. I don't even know who you are. I mean, what. I told you, I came into this blindly. I didn't even know we were going to talk more than like, 20 minutes. I thought there was going to be some food at least, but, I mean, you know, a fucking donut. I mean, you know, when you learn I'm from Boston, you should have Dunkin out. But okay, but you give me a bottle of water. But the cup is nice, though, you know, it's like a lizard, which I found. You put that down. It was like an alligator. That's really nice. But anyway.

That'S funny. Cause I got off, you know, I was in Penn Station, and I never buy food in Penn Station. You know, like, what do you call it, the new hall? Moynihan Hall. The food court's really nice, actually. And I was hungry, so I don't eat food is what I'm saying. But I bought a ham and cheese croissant at this Martha Stewart place, and I waited like 20 minutes and I'm like, what the hell happened to my order? Okay, 10 minutes. People coming from behind are getting their crap, same things. Egg and cheese, croissant, sandwich with ham. They're like, oh, what's your order? I'm like, what? Are you kidding me? You forgot my order? She goes, oh, my God, we forgot your order. No, sorry, nothing. I'm like, well, now what? I have to wait another 10 minutes. They go, well, we'll speed it up. What is going on here? It's $16 at this freaking place. They gave it to me. It was frickin bottom was frozen. I took a bite. I'm like, okay, no good. I went, I sent it back and I said, dude, I just cut the line. I didn't care. I was angry.

But I kept it together. And I said, this croissant is frozen on the bottom.

Losing my ticket. There's no excuse for that. You just should have refunded me and given me a croissant anyway. Done something, because you don't know who I am. And then what went through my head was, oh, my God, it's time to write my first Yelp review.

Because I have to play a role in the system. I have to let people know rather than brooding about this sitting in my dark space like Batman take action. So I downloaded the Yelp app while sitting in Moynihan hall, and I wrote a review of exactly what happened in detail.

So I contributed because I just didn't know how else to fight back. Like, I didn't enjoy that experience was a bad situation. My point being is that I don't need donuts right now. So good, right? I don't need anything because we don't have donuts. But I have. But you don't want me on sugar. But I did have a hearty meal, but it was not a great. Like, it was not what I. What I had anticipated. Yeah, it kind of sucked.

[Jim]

It kind of sucked.

[Mark Dennis]

And it shouldn't suck because I love Martha Stewart and everybody knows that she, you know, her brand demands. Yeah, proper attention.

[Jim]

Martha herself would be Very dismayed. And I have to hear about your experience.

[Mark Dennis]

And I have had lunch with Martha, in fact. Really? In SoHo. Yes. And I went to an Amy Sherrill lecture and sat next to Martha. And, you know, Amy's a friend, and Martha was in attendance. It was. So, you know, point being is that I wrote that in my review. I said, they're trash in Martha's brand. Shame on them.

[Jim]

So, but let's get back to the memoir.

[Mark Dennis]

Let's get back to something.

[Jim]

What?

[Mark Dennis]

Anything. Damn it. Ground me. Have you ever heard me, Jim?

[Jim]

Have you ever heard of the game Kismet.

[Mark Dennis]

Talking to a Jew? No. To answer your question, no.

[Jim]

No.

[Mark Dennis]

But you know what kismet means.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I say Kismet probably once a day.

[Jim]

Yeah. So. So in the version of the game is you. You have to. You would be perfect at it, because the rules can. Anytime it's your turn as a player, you can completely change the rules, and then the next player has to play by your. It's like improv. It's really fun.

[Mark Dennis]

So, first of all, you invited me to this podcast. Yes. And I accepted. Yes. And because of that, we're friends now. Yes. So I can say this. I love you, but I'm never gonna play that game.

[Jim]

Okay. Let's get back to the memoir.

[Mark Dennis]

So no more game talk.

[Jim]

No more games at all.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't do games. Pictionary. No. If I go to a. Yeah. I don't even go to people's homes anymore because they're gonna whip out Pictionary when I'm. When I show up. I'm not a fan of Pictionary When I show up, they bring it out, thinking I'm gonna be the best at it. And I'm like, stop it. Y' all know what shoppies are. Use it. You can draw on the toilet. You don't need me. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna do things in a minute. You do things in a minute or 30 seconds. Oh. And I don't like those. I don't like people. People who have. I don't. You know what? Don't even get me. I'm not going there. But this, I don't like. I'm not going to anyone's house or anywhere. I'm not going to show up. A meetup. Remember the meetup? Remember those meetup things?

[Jim]

I do.

[Mark Dennis]

That's why. No, no, no, no.

[Jim]

But you came here.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Because it's. You invited me, and Ariel suggested it, and this is not a game. No. Not like, you know, chess I'll play. Yep. That I'll play.

[Jim]

Fun game. Do you play Go?

[Mark Dennis]

I play with my son a lot. What?

[Jim]

Go?

[Mark Dennis]

Dude, no games. But chess, to me, is like a game game. It's not like a board game. It's not like a picture, like, you know, like charades. If I ever go to someone's house.

[Jim]

Oh, I'm with you there, brother.

[Mark Dennis]

Fair warning to all the people out there who know me, brother. Don't invite me to play charades. That's where it's like, I'm out. Gotta go now. Call the coroner's office. Not good. There's so many people. What. What's that game on the floor that looks like a Damien Hirst painting?

[Jim]

A twister?

[Mark Dennis]

Yes.

Well, now, that was Damien. Well, it does. Sorry. Damien. You know, wasn't he the guy in the Omen?

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Good scary movie.

[Jim]

Yeah, very scary.

[Mark Dennis]

I can remember some things. Well, don't. I don't know.

[Jim]

No games.

[Mark Dennis]

All right. Let's.

[Jim]

Let's keep going with the memoir.

[Mark Dennis]

Although it's fun to talk about games.

[Jim]

It is.

[Mark Dennis]

It's fun to bash games. It should be a game about bashing games.

[Jim]

Yes, I agree.

Here you go. You're an entrepreneur. Like, do it.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm not gonna do it. I am not gonna do it.

[Jim]

Let's get back to the memoir time. Let's get back to the memoir.

[Mark Dennis]

What. What.

[Jim]

What struck you to decide you're going to do?

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, we're going to get deep here.

[Jim]

Let's do it.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm going to say a few sentences, and I'm going to move on.

[Jim]

Good.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. Sure. My younger brother passed away when. Thank you. So am I. When he died, I needed to communicate with him, so I began writing him a letter every day.

And it was always, dear Bruce, this is what's happening. You're not missing much, but maybe you have stories for me one day you'll tell me. Maybe I'll catch up with you one day. You know, like, I. And the letters led and bled into stories about what I'm doing. And then they, as they always do, they kind of spiral out of control, and they became stories about stories, and they became. Not so much about addressing Bruce, but about just commenting on life. And then it became memories. And then I began to talk about why I was arrested. And then I wrote about the forest fire that I started. And then I wrote about the first lizard I caught when I moved to Puerto Rico, how fascinated I was about lizards. Like, why hadn't I seen lizards in Massachusetts? Like, what the hell why are there so many different animals living in different parts? How'd they get there? How. What is the tuatara? If you. It's a lizard, which is incredible because it has a third eye, which no one knows about because it's under a flap of skin. I mean, I wrote about things that fascinated me, and I just kept going and going and going and tying it somehow into my sense of self.

[Jim]

Very cool. How are you done with it?

[Mark Dennis]

Is anyone ever done with a memoir?

[Jim]

Not really, no.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, I don't. No one's watching me write it, so I'm just writing it. It's almost like an outlet.

[Jim]

Very cool.

[Mark Dennis]

And one day when I'm gone, someone's gonna find it and they're gonna say.

[Jim]

So you don't have it. You don't have aspirations to have it actually published so that the public can read it.

[Mark Dennis]

So when I taught college, I'm gonna answer this question. Where did you teach? I taught at Elmira College in Elmira, New York. I taught painting and drawing and Holocaust studies. And then I lectured at Cornell in the Jewish studies program on Holocaust studies because, you know, they're like 30 minutes apart. And we lived. You know, when I was married, we lived in Ithaca. Both kids were born in Ithaca. And my students said to me, dude, before we start the lesson, today's lesson, because, you know, there are three and a half hour classes. Can you tell us a story? And I had already been in the middle of my memoir because my brother died young. And I said, okay, I have a lot of stories. You go, yeah, you're always telling stories. You're always, like, going on and on like you're that guy that doesn't stop talking during class. You know, can we just hear a story? I'm like, well, I'll tell you stories. I won't lecture you on art, but I'll tell you stories as long as you're drawn. And working on the assignment, the in class assignment, they would all have, like, photos out, or they'd have a mirror in front of them, doing self portraits, learning proper proportion, all that weird stuff. And I'd be telling them stories. And then, you know, when I left, I resigned in 2015 to pursue my art career full time and move us back to the city as a family. Williamsburg, Brooklyn. One of the kids said, hey, man, we're gonna miss these stories. Put them in a book.

Yeah, right, right. And I.

[Jim]

Why do you think I have a publishing company?

[Mark Dennis]

I'll never forget that because they're really good stories. And I always thought it would be a great title of the book was Stories from my Professor.

[Jim]

I love it.

[Mark Dennis]

Now, I think it's. I don't know.

[Jim]

So send. Send us a copy of the manuscript script. I'm serious.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. The.

[Jim]

The.

[Mark Dennis]

Moving on.

[Jim]

I. I love that, though, because I'm a huge believer in journaling. I'm a huge believer in writing. I wrote when my son was born. I decided I was going to write letters to my kids, and I started when he was four days old. And he's 41 now, or 40. 41 next year. And wait, you wrote.

[Mark Dennis]

Does he. Did he read them?

[Jim]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, that's great. That's a great title. From 4 to 41.

[Jim]

Yeah. But I have two younger than him. Right.

[Mark Dennis]

Pay me back.

Last chapter. You owe me.

[Jim]

Slip the bill.

[Mark Dennis]

True daddy book.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. There's an invoice in there.

Dad, what's this little note? It's a love letter, but it's about reality, kid.

[Jim]

But what's. What was great about it is, like, you learn almost as much about yourself as you're writing these letters.

[Mark Dennis]

Like I said, it's cathartic. Very. And I did it for that purpose.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

My intentions.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Were to get in touch because I missed them, of course. And then it became a catharsis. And then I realized, wow, I have a lot more to say than just writing to my brother. Like, it just spiraled. It was a beautiful natural. You know how people say, oh, you know, life's like a river? Or, you know, be the brook, breathe a stream. I don't know what?

[Jim]

Heraclitus.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah.

[Jim]

The same man never steps the same.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah.

[Jim]

River.

[Mark Dennis]

Because another human is the same man.

[Jim]

And it is not the same.

[Mark Dennis]

That sounds like a disease of your foot, Heraclitus. Oh, you have it, too. Yeah.

[Jim]

Yeah. I've got this horrible case of Heraclius.

[Mark Dennis]

Climbing up my leg. So, yeah, I'm writing a lot of stories. We'll talk about it later. We'll get a beer later. And I can say to you why I like the Irish.

[Jim]

I'd love to see them. Let's get back to the art. And like, was there a moment, right, that you're just like, okay, fuck it. I'm gonna do this.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, Jim.

That is the best question yet. They've all been great, but, you know, we always. In our brains, we're measuring like, I don't want to bore people when I'm talking. I think what I have to say is really boring most of the time. I don't know, you know, but that But I have a good. But that's a good question, because we all. Because when I was teaching college, you know, I had students who were art majors and I had some who were bio pre med nurse majors, education majors who really enjoyed my classes so much that they wanted to become art majors. And I would say, I don't think so. Like, it's not just about. It's not fun, it's not, you know, it's, it's. There's like a inner calling and if you've got it, then, you know, stick with it. Take more classes. But don't, like, don't kill the concentration you're already in, you know, because that's what you came here for, you know, whatever the case might be. Well, I never forgot. Every graduation I would have several parents who would come up to me and ask me one question. Same question, what's for lunch? No, they would say.

What is the key to success? How is my kid going to succeed as an artist? You know, my kid can inherit a pizza joint, we own a pizza restaurant. He doesn't want it. He wants to be an artist. What is the key to success? Can you please tell us? And I said, there is no key to success, but there is a key to failure.

And they're like, what? Because, no.

I don't know, I never heard it before in my life. But I kind of came up with it because I had to. There is no key to success. I mean, hard work, whatever. I mean, yeah, sure, but you know, what is success? It's so relative and it's so abstract.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So they said, what's the key to failure? I said, trying to please everyone all the time.

[Jim]

Bingo. So true.

[Mark Dennis]

It's so true in every respect. And I said, you gotta find yourself. And I think being an artist, I think your kid is yearning to find himself. Maybe it's not about owning a pizza restaurant. Maybe in 10 years he will. But he's gotta. He's in a spot in life where he has one shot at this. He's got to go for it. He can't please you, he can't please himself. He can't please a girlfriend or boyfriend.

You gotta learn that in some life you gotta take responsibilities for your urges. And you have to. As long as they're good and they're focused and they're well intentioned, you better damn well fulfill those experiences. To know what you don't want, as opposed to know what you do want, you have to edit in life, leave it at that. Comes to me, I'm teaching Full time. I have a pretty good life. 10 fully tenured. We have a nice house, we move, whatever, lovely family. And I'm in Brooklyn now, 2015, mind you. Now, I had shows, I had sales, but, you know, I wasn't a full time artist. I was a college professor who made interesting art. Like I had made the Courbet in 2008. I mean, I don't remember the date. 2008, maybe. Yeah, 2008, you know, whatever. 2009. But, you know, and I had sold it because I had an exhibition while being a professor at Herschel and Adler Modern. It was my first show in New York City. And was it. And we did really well. And I thought, oh, my God, is this success? Because the show sold out, you know, in 70. I was really happy. It was a really good exhibition. I was still working full time. I was still living in Ithaca. I wasn't like living in New York. I had a studio in Dumbo, but I would teach. That was my main concern. My students were my focus. My family first, students second, art third.

But the show did well. And I thought, wow, does this mean I'm an artist? I guess I'm an artist, but I'm still a professor foremost because that was so rewarding. It was so fulfilling.

[Jim]

So you said you were full tenured, right? Why not do both?

[Mark Dennis]

It's a lot of work to teach full time. I bet students are demanding.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And being that I'm so giving, I gave everything. And I have a lot of energy, probably more than most people. I'm sure there's way more energized people than I am, but.

[Jim]

Well, you've met a lot of people. You're up there.

[Mark Dennis]

That's like. So I gave and.

[Jim]

No, that's a compliment.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, I take it as a compliment.

[Jim]

First thing I said to these guys.

[Mark Dennis]

Was, are we done here? No, no, no.

[Jim]

First thing I said to these guys was, oh, I'm just gonna let him run.

[Mark Dennis]

When you point to them, am I supposed to look? Am I like on tv? Because I don't know what's going on. Like, I feel bad. Like, I'm not supposed to look at them. And I don't want them to think I'm ignoring them. But the camera's here. And then I'm like, if I look over, then people are watching on TV. Is this on TV?

[Jim]

This will be YouTube. YouTube, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So we have YouTube.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, so that was a joke. Okay, you want to hear a funny.

[Jim]

You want to hear a funny piece of advice?

[Mark Dennis]

No, not yet. I want to say because I'm going to forget what I'm going to say, okay, but because you're way smarter than me, so you'll maintain shit. Your kids are grown. I'm like a teenage. My brain is like, you know, like pizza, you know, steak. Okay. So in 2015, when my wife at the time and I decided to leave my tenured post and move back to New York City full time, I was going to become a full time artist. And that's when it occurred to me that I am reliant on all my energy, harnessing all my thoughts, all my crazy ideas, allowing my imagination to be nurtured through my images. It was going to be art or bust.

[Jim]

All in.

[Mark Dennis]

All in.

[Jim]

I love all in people. No plan B.

[Mark Dennis]

There was no plan B. I fucking love it. That's a great way of putting it. So thank you. So I went all in. I had my studio in Dumbo. I set up. We had a big loft in Williamsburg. You know, it was good like this, twice, maybe the size. And we were very lucky. And I started painting in one end of it so I could wake up in my underwear and paint while the kids were still sleeping. Or, you know, like I just was all I was, I was. What's the word? You know, immersed.

[Jim]

Yeah, sure.

[Mark Dennis]

In making my art. Thinking I've. It's got to go. It's got, have to. Like now I'm fully on board with the gallery. You only get a show once a year. It's not like I could. Like, what do I do? I have to get collectors to my studio. I have to do things. You asked me. When was that moment? I realized. So at the first juncture, it was at Herschel Nadler Modern in 2010 when I had my solo exhibition and we sold out. We did. I thought, wow, I'm Good. I'm here 2010. Think about that. Not that long ago. I mean, I have been painting up to that point, but never really exhibiting. Never. So.

2015, I had been invited to this event called Art Crush in Aspen, Colorado by John and Amy Phelan. And John now is the Secretary of the Navy. And they had invited me since 2009. I remember because my daughter Zayla was born in 2009, and I had been going every summer for like three to four days. It's a big event, big gala, an auction of silent artworks. There's a live auction and you meet and greet collectors from around the world and gallerists and curators and writers and podcasters and celebrities. They would just come to this Event. Part of it was at the Phelan's home in Aspen. A beautiful house. And then part of it was down in some event hall, you know, near the museum and whatever. So I used to go. But while I was there, being the mensch that I am for all you non Jews out there who don't know Yiddish, a mensch is someone who is like a schmoozer. Like a talking, walking, wind up Energizer Bunny. And that was me.

[Jim]

Good guy, too.

[Mark Dennis]

Very guy who's generous and giving.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

You know, yes, thank you, thank you central. Someone who's authentic. Yes. And I'm the mensch. And I went from table to table. I rarely sat down, you know, and I would meet and greet people. Who are you? I'm Mark Dennis. Oh, yeah. Amy's told me good things about you. And, you know, so between, like I have to tell you, you know, and I met Beth D. Woody there for the first. I mean, there were so many names I could. I could mention, but it was. It was those experiences at Art Crush that made me realize that these people had my back and even though I didn't.

[Jim]

Back to Tribes, right?

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah.

[Jim]

These were your people.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah.

[Jim]

You found them.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. And in 2000. And they were art collectors, but they were also art appreciators. And they also were loving and generous people, and they bought paintings. And from them, it, you know, it kind of their pathways connected me to newer people. And I was building a nice body of backers or people who supported me or people patrons, you might say. Sure. To use a Renaissance term, since we were talking about Titian and Raphael and whatnot. And then, you know, I still didn't have a gallery. And then finally I had my show with Adam Cohen. At a hug from the art world. Three Jews walk into a bar.

And Harper Levine took notice of my work. And I am now represented with Harper's. I am super blessed. And I am also represented with Anat EBGI in Los Angeles. So I'm like, pinching myself. My career took off like a rocket. Resigning from my being a professor.

[Jim]

Well, that makes, like, total sense to me. I'm a huge believer in being all in on having no plan B. And that's what sounded. Sounds to me like, what happened to you?

[Mark Dennis]

Right. And I didn't have a. I didn't have a choice.

Like, I didn't know what I. I wasn't gonna go study entomology.

[Jim]

Right.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, I'm all in. I'm an artist.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

You know, move over, bitch. You Know, like, I'm here. Like, I gotta do what I gotta do to make it work. I had a family and, you know, I mean.

It was. It's a lot of work.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And I look back and think.

I'm lucky. Wasn't there a movie like that? Rocky Graziano, Paul Newman looks up and says, yeah, Ma, somebody up there likes me. What was that? Oh, yeah, I'm lucky. He's a boxer.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember the name of the movie.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. But it's Paul Newman. He looks up and he says, hey.

[Jim]

Ma, somebody up there.

[Mark Dennis]

Like, yeah, like. Like that's how I feel.

[Jim]

Yeah. Well, that's.

[Mark Dennis]

And I believe in God, and I know that I'm being looked down on. I am lucky.

[Jim]

That's another attribute of people who are really interesting, in my opinion, at least. It's like, the sad man lives in a sad world. The madman lives in a mad world. The happy man lives in a happy world.

Everything is luck in my opinion. No, wait, wait for the punchline. Everything is luck. Said the world's most unlucky man.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, because he's miserable.

[Jim]

Because he's miss.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, he can't figure it out. He can't. He doesn't like people who have me, so he blames.

[Jim]

Oh, everything's just due to luck. No, it is not. A lot of it is due to your internal monologues. Right. And I love it when I hear people say I am the luckiest person in the world, because guess what? That opens your perspective and you see things that people who believe they are unlucky, we can't see. Literally. We're back to perception now, right? If you think that you are the luckiest guy in the world, you're going to be a lot luckier than if you think you're the most cursed person in the world.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. I never thought ever that I was the most cursed or unlucky. Yeah. I just figured, you know, happens, and I gotta find a way to move past it because it's gonna happen again. Yeah. What is darkness without light? I look at us, we're sounding like, you know, we should have, like, some mass being played over our heads, you know?

Yeah. Because it's true. I mean, you love you lose you. You know, like.

Look, I could talk. I mean, how long is this podcast? Because this is a great subject.

[Jim]

It is.

[Mark Dennis]

Because talking about love and talking about loss.

Are what makes us human.

[Jim]

Yes, I agree.

[Mark Dennis]

We are animals. We just happen to be primates where dogs who pull back curtains on the wizard are Related to us. They're just not primates. We are the highest order of primate. I mean, it's so basic. And somehow we have conjured up in all of our cellular divisions and neurotransmissions a bigger brain or a brain that actually takes on more than we probably can handle. And when we're in the midst of sadness or love or incredible happiness or orgasmic sensibilities, we feel. And those feelings is what makes us individual.

[Jim]

So.

[Mark Dennis]

I pour this into my art. And that's obvious, by the way. And I don't know. And humor is part of it, but I don't know if whoever is looking at it is picking up what I'm putting down, so to speak. I mean, we're putting. I guess, putting down. You know, Pollock could say that.

[Jim]

Yes, he could.

[Mark Dennis]

Are you picking up what I'm putting down? No. I'm drunk.

I'll never know. I'll never know.

[Jim]

And I'm really drunk.

[Mark Dennis]

I'll never know. But the reason why I make art is for. It's not a cathartic experience for me. I don't need to do it. I do it because I feel like I am entertaining others to find themselves in that work.

[Jim]

I love that. I think, like, literally, if you.

[Mark Dennis]

If, if.

[Jim]

If that is like one of your purposes in life. Right. You're a teacher.

[Mark Dennis]

You.

[Jim]

You. You're not going to. If you try to fashion. I'm very serious. Et cetera, et cetera. There's a great quote about Kurt Vonnegut that John Irving said about him. And it was literally, they were talking about some serious piece of writing. And Vonnegut goes, I don't get those guys. I want people to actually learn something from what I write. And that means I have to entertain them.

I love that line because it's so true.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Like. And it's not always about fun. It's about insight.

[Jim]

Exactly.

[Mark Dennis]

Informing. It's about sharing. You know, I don't like serious art.

[Jim]

Bingo.

[Mark Dennis]

Because I'm not that serious.

[Jim]

Right.

[Mark Dennis]

And I have a role in life. I know my role. I'm a father. First, I'm an artist. Second, I'm a teacher. All within that, I am who I am.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So my art affects my father.

[Jim]

Well, you're back to balance.

[Mark Dennis]

It's all. Exactly. Again, thank you.

[Jim]

These guys are too young. They probably.

[Mark Dennis]

Thanks for coming. Have you guys ever seen Jimmy Fallon Does It Now? You know, the Tonight Show? I don't know.

[Jim]

Do you guys know that? Do you?

[Mark Dennis]

Do you. Besides those shows, those. What are they? You know, like, oh, they're horrible. Yeah. They're just not. There's nothing. But we're talking about old Jewish humor, so, of course, naturally, Johnny Carson was the one who really introduced them to the world. I mean, it was Seinfeld's first appearance with Johnny, of course. But I mean.

You guys. I mean, they can't. They must watch Seinfeld, the Curb youb Enthusiasm, or the new show called the Bookie by Sebastian Maniscolco.

[Jim]

I don't know that.

[Mark Dennis]

Holy. Is that funny?

[Jim]

Should I check it out? It's called the Bookie.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah.

[Jim]

Oh, cool.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah, it's funny. He's a funny guy. Talks about the doorbell ringing. You ever see that episode? No. You don't like him? Nothing's funny to you guys. Who's your favorite comedians? You have to have. Who's your favorite comedian? That's my point. There's a lot of. There's a lot of. I mean, there's a lot of.

[Jim]

This is.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, okay, great.

[Jim]

Jealous is funny.

[Mark Dennis]

So you watch tires. Tires.

[Jim]

Okay, there you go.

[Mark Dennis]

Right? No, it is horrible. But why not make fun of. That's horrible.

[Jim]

Exactly.

[Mark Dennis]

That's how you get through life.

[Jim]

Exactly. And you know, people don't watch them.

[Mark Dennis]

You don't like them.

[Jim]

You don't like them.

[Mark Dennis]

I'm sitting there thinking all this.

[Jim]

This. This is what we call.

[Mark Dennis]

He's taking a lunch. He's taking a takeout. He's like, doordash.

[Jim]

Yeah, he's already ordered it, for sure.

[Mark Dennis]

I used Instacart for the first time in my life last year.

[Jim]

I've never used it now.

[Mark Dennis]

They keep. They just keep bringing shit to me.

[Jim]

Do they? Yeah, that's very cool.

[Mark Dennis]

Leave it at different doors. I don't know where the hell this stuff is.

[Jim]

What we're doing here, by the way, is called Breaking the Fourth Wall.

[Mark Dennis]

Come on, you love movies with the Matrix.

[Jim]

Breaking? No, breaking. Well, they break the fourth wall in the Matrix. Yeah, but breaking the fourth wall is admitting that you have non participants in your little production that are off scene. Right. And so, like.

[Mark Dennis]

Right. Which is why I asked. What do I look.

[Jim]

Did you see the Wolf of Wall street with DiCaprio?

[Mark Dennis]

I did see the Wolf of Wall Street.

[Jim]

He breaks the fourth wall all the time in that movie.

[Mark Dennis]

So American Psycho is the fourth wall.

[Jim]

Oh, well, he breaks the fourth wall.

[Mark Dennis]

I just saw that for the first time three months ago. Really?

[Jim]

What'd you think?

[Mark Dennis]

Well, someone has suggested to me, because I. Apparently, I don't see a lot of movies that I should be seeing.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And I loved it.

[Jim]

Yeah. Amazing move.

[Mark Dennis]

And I have. I mean, I have a take on it like I have a take on Fight Club. That's clearly, you know, the existence of Lucifer within our own minds. Of no doubt in my mind. Yeah, granted. Someone might say, what are you talking about?

[Jim]

Well, Jung would say it's the shadow. Right? We all have a shadow. And if you don't integrate your shadow into your personality, you will. What's Jung's really great quote about that? If you fail to integrate your shadow into your personality, you will look on what happens in your life and call it fate.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, that sums that. That's what. This is what every juvenile delinquent and politician would say, keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.

[Jim]

Exactly right. Because. But in the truest sense, your shadow is not your enemy. It's who you know, your version of you. Right? Like, you want to be seen a certain way. You want others to perceive you a certain way. Sometimes your shadow doesn't give a about that. And if you realize that and you integrate your shadow into your personality, that's when life gets fun. And you seem like somebody to me who's integrated his shadow pretty well.

[Mark Dennis]

I have no comment.

I mean, let's just. Let's just make it entertaining for the last minute.

[Jim]

Okay, let's do.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, let's. What is your. If you could.

[Jim]

Let's do more than a minute.

[Mark Dennis]

If you could do. If you could get instacart right now to come here with your favorite meal, put right down in front of you, throw a big white tablecloth across here, your finest silver glass of bourbon. I don't know if you drink, but you're Irish. You must drink, so what. What. What would. What meal would you want in front of you right now? Yes.

[Jim]

Well, it's really. I'm not terribly hungry, so if you were.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, my God.

Everybody loves somebody sometime. What if you were starving? What would you want to eat?

[Jim]

If I was starving. I love the way that Boston accent comes out. Starving.

[Mark Dennis]

Just kind of.

[Jim]

Big storm is coming.

[Mark Dennis]

Come on, man. What would you want to eat?

[Jim]

I'm. I honestly, like, if I. If I was gonna get extra executed, I'd probably go for the All American.

[Mark Dennis]

Executed who? I'm not talking about dying. What, this guy, man. Work for this guy? Wait, do you pay these guys?

[Jim]

I do. Why else do you think they're sitting there?

[Mark Dennis]

They studied communications in school. Did you wind up doing this because you couldn't play baseball? I don't know what happened.

[Jim]

Well, in both cases, you're very insightful.

[Mark Dennis]

Second base.

[Jim]

Neither one of them could make it to the show.

So they do this instead.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, yeah. Front row seats to any show you want.

[Jim]

There you go. Now. Now they're gonna be really.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, they're gonna cost.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, they cost money. I mean. But my daughter long and illustrious career I had opened up by saying. Because I noticed I spit on you. I noticed that. It's the splash zone. I was told by my daughter that that's a splash zone. We saw Jonathan Groff and Merrily We Roll along and when he sings, he projects tons of saliva. Huh. Like you're wet. Yeah. In his spit. How do you know?

[Jim]

I've been to a lot of performances and been in pretty good seats.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Front row center, baby.

[Jim]

Where that happens.

[Mark Dennis]

Only a Jew would say that over and over again. Okay, you're really hungry. You're not gonna die. Someone says, jim, this is for you. I love you. Here's your favorite meal.

[Jim]

My. I don't have a favorite meal.

[Mark Dennis]

All right, give me 10. Just pick one of your favorites. Okay. Ask me the question. I am fucking this up. Ask me a question. Ask me the question.

[Jim]

I think we should just leave all of it.

[Mark Dennis]

Don't ask me a question. Yeah, leave it all. Leave it all.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

Get it. Kissinger's mark. Yes.

[Jim]

What is your favorite meal?

[Mark Dennis]

Mesquite smoked duck.

[Jim]

Oh, great choice.

[Mark Dennis]

A restaurant in Houston, Texas, right off Kirby called Good Company. Although they do not make the mesquite smoked duck anymore. However, if you bring a duck, a freshwater duck to them. Yeah. They will smoke it for you for a charge. I'm not. I would love to fly to Texas and just bring them. Get a duck and then let him smoke it. Why did it not happen?

[Jim]

Why did.

[Mark Dennis]

With homemade jalapeno bread.

[Jim]

Nice. Why? Why did they stop? If that was the best, why did they stop doing the mesquite?

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know. Maybe I was the only one eating the duck. I would drive down. You went to school at UT Austin. I would drive down from Austin to Houston. Houston. Just to eat the damn duck. Just to eat the duck. Think. Who does that?

[Jim]

You, apparently.

[Mark Dennis]

I did it. That's chapter 14 of my memoir.

[Jim]

There you go.

[Mark Dennis]

Who does that? It's called, I think.

[Jim]

I think more people than you might imagine.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, they stopped making the duck.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So it wasn't selling as much as the ribs or the brisk. The brisket was the number one seller.

[Jim]

In that particular situation. Yes. I love ribs. I love barbecue. Well, I love all that.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. I have smokers in my backyard.

[Jim]

Really?

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. So I smoke.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Not a lot, but when I find, like I smoke for Thanksgiving, I smoke two turkeys and 11 pound turkeys. They're young turkeys.

[Jim]

And reaction of the of your guests?

[Mark Dennis]

8 to 10? Because I asked them.

[Jim]

Of course you did.

[Mark Dennis]

What do you rate it? 1 to 10? 8 to 10?

[Jim]

10 perfect, perfect scores. All right, Mark, the last question we ask in this podcast is very simple. We're gonna wave a wand and we're gonna make you the emperor of the world for just one day. You cannot kill anyone. Just hang on. You can't kill anyone. You can't put anyone in a re education camp. But what you can do is we're going to hand you a magic microphone right here and you can say two things into that magic microphone that every single human being on the planet is going to wake up the next day whenever their next day is, and they're going to think to themselves, I've just had two of the greatest ideas. And unlike all the other times, I'm actually going to act on both of these ideas. Today you get to incept those two ideas. What are you going to incept in the world's population?

[Mark Dennis]

I would love to just go on about this, how emperors are kind of, you know, they're.

They don't just become an emperor overnight. But if you're giving me that title, I am.

[Jim]

You could call yourself a magician.

[Mark Dennis]

I would, you know, am I, am I. Am I being asked to do something magical or am I being asked to do something like to advise people on something? I would love to let people know one thing that's really important, which I think a lot of people tend to forget. It's really just fatherly advice. You might say, since I'm a dad.

You can't love others until you love yourself.

[Jim]

I love that.

[Mark Dennis]

So I would express this to people and I would make everybody have this in front of them in any way that they need it. But this is something that people just don't seem to grasp.

[Jim]

No, I know.

[Mark Dennis]

And it really troubles me because it may be hard to love oneself, but this is something you should strive for. Because you cannot love another. Completely agree. Unless you.

[Jim]

That's a great one.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay.

[Jim]

So you've. You're gonna get everybody in the world thinking, I gotta love myself before I can love others, because I really want to love others. Good one.

[Mark Dennis]

And on a magical note, if I could maybe do something that I really think is a problem in the world, because I never. I didn't really talk about it earlier, but world hunger has always troubled me. I don't understand, like, it doesn't. I don't understand why people are starving.

And, you know, not getting verklempt. I've been thinking about this for a long time. Just before my daughter was born, I thought about it incredibly. Like, it was always on my mind. World hunger. Because I was never hungry, never went hungry. But. And I. So if I were emperor with a magical sense, I don't know what the magical microphone can do, but you did say magical. So I'm assuming that this is, like, I can go in the direction of wizard of Oz, talking about bringing something full circle.

[Jim]

Yes, you can.

[Mark Dennis]

I would make us all work together so that we could provide food for the world, so that it would be there when it needs to be there. And that's totally magical because nobody. It's not going to happen. But that's something I would strive for as an empty emperor.

[Jim]

I love both of those. So you're a very good emperor. You should hear some of the other ideas.

[Mark Dennis]

Well, Marcus. Marcus Aurelius, I don't know. Yeah.

[Jim]

You a fan?

[Mark Dennis]

Marcus the Tenko was our Ukrainian name. Am I a fan of Marcus Aurelius of Meditations?

[Jim]

No. No. Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

So I did read Meditations and I read Sutonius. All 12, if you know. You must know. Of course I do, because I lived in Italy to learn painting techniques. But since you said this was the end of the podcast, I'm not going to tell you anymore till we do part two.

[Jim]

Well, we will do part two because we might be publishing your book.

[Mark Dennis]

I didn't come here for that. You know, like, I had no idea who you were.

[Jim]

I know.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, you're a legend. I even said that when I walked.

[Jim]

In, but I actually loved just a.

[Mark Dennis]

Way of saying something nice to you.

[Jim]

I didn't who I was.

[Mark Dennis]

What? I had no idea what's going on. I don't know what's going on.

[Jim]

That is great.

[Mark Dennis]

I fly to Miami tomorrow morning, first flight.

[Jim]

So many different levels. I love that you just were like. You like Ariel. You're like, okay, I'll do that. I love that. I love that you didn't look me up.

[Mark Dennis]

I did not. Is that bad? I. I did not look you up.

[Jim]

No, no, no. It's fabulous.

[Mark Dennis]

I just asked for reminders so that I wouldn't forget when it was.

[Jim]

And you got them.

[Mark Dennis]

And I got them. That's all I asked for. That was my only concern because I knew that if you're gonna.

[Jim]

I will share with You.

[Mark Dennis]

Yes, that.

[Jim]

She's. The reason she's so good at. That Is you and I are very alike. And she's worked for me for 22 years, and she has to do that with me all the time. Oh, well, I rely on her so much. Literally, when I was still. I sold my company in 21. Okay. And started a new company.

[Mark Dennis]

But you own Caribbean Cruise.

[Jim]

No.

Because they were.

[Mark Dennis]

A lot of people were selling them back in the day because they, you know, the toilets blocked up. Yeah. You got a nice toilet in there.

[Jim]

I don't know.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't know what your deal is. You ever see that thing on Netflix called, like, the Poop Cruise?

[Jim]

I did, and I'm. I think cruises are horrible.

[Mark Dennis]

See that? To me, that was a funny show.

[Jim]

It was. It was very.

[Mark Dennis]

I would never go on a boat.

[Jim]

No.

[Mark Dennis]

I could never do. That's why they call it Carnival.

[Jim]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Mark Dennis]

Because you are a clown. I fucking.

Freaks coming out of the woodwork. Todd Browning. Todd Browning, yeah.

[Jim]

And you are locked on a boat with them in the middle of the water.

[Mark Dennis]

All it takes is one fucking person to say, you know what? I got fucking tetanus. Oh, really? What's your bunk, bitch? You know, like, I'm not even vaccinated. You ever have hepatitis B?

[Jim]

Sure you do now.

[Mark Dennis]

Just takes one. Yeah. I'd be sleeping up at the top of the slide over the pool. There's no way. No way. No cruising.

[Jim]

They're horrible.

[Mark Dennis]

It's gotta be. They're horrible and yet they're so popular. That's why I said, did you sell your company, Caribbean Cruise? Because to me, that'd be one company I would sell in a heartbeat.

[Jim]

If I would. If I ever owned it, I would have. I had an asset management company.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, so you were. You're, like a big deal.

[Jim]

Well, like, you're like, Only in my own mind. I'm only a legend in my mind.

[Mark Dennis]

That's why you're buying art.

Legend in My Own Mind. That's a good name for a memoir. I'm nobody.

[Jim]

I'm a legend in my.

[Mark Dennis]

It's actually a good movie. Nobody. You see that one?

[Jim]

Nobody's great.

[Mark Dennis]

Am I wrong?

[Jim]

Nobody too sucks. Have you seen.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, no. Don't ruin it. What is that? Spoiler alert. You're like that. You're that guy who does spoiler alerts. That's like someone saying, don't order the shrimp scampi. Like, what I want. Wanted it all day. I came here for this. I actually never had shrimp scampi, but I'M using it.

[Jim]

That was done in a very calculated fashion to put you off.

[Mark Dennis]

But I love Better call salt. You know, how do you not.

[Jim]

You gotta love.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, so let's just end it on this, if I may.

[Jim]

Sure.

[Mark Dennis]

Not that I'm taking over the podcast because I wouldn't know how to do it, but, you know, because the conversation today is not. What would you want as your favorite meal? Right. Or your death sentence meal or your last meal? What's it called? Your last meal. Yeah. But everybody's like, give me three shows that you want me to recommend. Because you wrote down Billy Bookie.

[Jim]

I did.

[Mark Dennis]

And this reminds. Okay, so there are three. Like, what three shows would you suggest or recommend that I watch? And I'll give you my three. I think that you've not even heard of my three.

[Jim]

Tell me.

[Mark Dennis]

Because we all agree we love Breaking Bad and Sopranos.

[Jim]

Totally.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, look at me. How do you not. Don't even tell me you never saw the Sopranos or Ray Donovan or.

[Jim]

Oh, Ray Donovan's great too.

[Mark Dennis]

Or Ozark or. There's so many arc's great. Okay, so all those aside, the End of the world is my number one.

[Jim]

That is a good.

[Mark Dennis]

Now the has seen it. Now he's talking. Yeah. It's unreal. Yeah. Okay. You never heard of it?

[Jim]

I have. I watched it.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, what the. Scott, you're so. Yeah, give me another one, you boring piece of. I thought you're writing it down like a doctor. You're like, oh, yeah, exactly. He's yawning. How come you're not on camera? Or are you. Are you on camera?

[Jim]

Of course.

[Mark Dennis]

Right there. This is a camera.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

I mean, I know it's a camera, but I thought it was like taking.

[Jim]

No, no, no. It's a camera.

[Mark Dennis]

It's moving pictures.

[Jim]

It's doing the moving picture.

[Mark Dennis]

Moving pictures.

Reservation Dogs.

[Jim]

Reservoir Dogs. You mean.

[Mark Dennis]

What did I say? Reservation Dogs.

[Jim]

I don't know that.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, my God. I know. Reservoir Sterling Hardcoats, about a group of teenage Indians who live in a reservation in Oklahoma.

Is one of the best things I have ever seen in my life. Reservation Dogs, naturally. It's based on Quentin Tarantino's Reservation Dogs. Reservoir Dogs. Because Sterling Harjo is a big fan of Quentin Tarantino, but I lived on Pine Ridge Indian reservation back in the day in South Dakota, while Belize, South Dakota, in a teepee. I have so many stories. And then Fargo series.

[Jim]

I love Fargo.

[Mark Dennis]

The last one with John Hamm.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Who plays the devil. I mean, it's like, what it's amazing. What?

[Jim]

It's amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

This is acting.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

And the first season is. Is first season is. Is bending brilliant, where I saw that dude for the first time, and now he's, like, super famous. I don't know. He's a weird. Yeah, he's a weird actor.

[Jim]

Great. But also a great movie.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, forget the movie. Talking TV shows. But the movie is fantastic. I agree. And no country for Old Men. Look, they're all good. The COHEN Brothers, Cormac McCarthy.

[Jim]

There's no.

[Mark Dennis]

See, we're gonna go off.

[Jim]

Yeah, no, I know. I agree.

[Mark Dennis]

This is what people talk about nowadays. I'm not gonna go there. I mentioned the wizard of oz. You know, Dr. Strangelove.

[Jim]

I mean, Dr. Strangelove is brilliant.

[Mark Dennis]

If you haven't seen it, I can't.

[Jim]

I can guarantee you both of those guys have not seen.

[Mark Dennis]

I get it. Dr. Stranger. It's okay. It's okay. Because they have seen other movies that we've not seen. That's right.

[Jim]

Well, I might have seen them. I'm a movie buff.

[Mark Dennis]

Uncut Gems.

[Jim]

Oh, great movie, Adam.

[Mark Dennis]

Bruins fan. Gotta watch it.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Mark Dennis]

Happy Gilmore.

[Jim]

Happy. Ah, Happy Gilmore.

[Mark Dennis]

It's fun.

[Jim]

It's okay.

[Mark Dennis]

That's it. We're done here. I'm not a fan fan. But, you know, he's a fun guy. He did uncut jazz. He's got a new movie coming out. He did nothing about his daughter's bar mitzvah.

[Jim]

Like that shows.

[Mark Dennis]

He lives in Montclair. He bought a house in Montclair.

[Jim]

That shows his chops. He's very, very good.

[Mark Dennis]

Right. And, you know, we talked about Fight Club. I mean, you know, there's like.

[Jim]

Fight Club is an amazing fight Club movie.

[Mark Dennis]

Of course they have. See, they're guys.

[Jim]

It is an amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

I don't think they should see Dr. Strangelove. I'm okay with that.

[Jim]

Are you?

[Mark Dennis]

Yeah. Citizen Kane. Enough already. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Like, there's newer classics. I agree. No country for Old Men. I. I'm a no country. Okay, look, they saw it.

[Jim]

Amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

Now they deserve raises.

[Jim]

Yeah, you think so?

[Mark Dennis]

But I'm okay with like. Like, Black and White. Look, east of Eden to me.

[Jim]

Great movie.

[Mark Dennis]

James Dean. His second movie. Great. His first movie. His first movie, I think it was. No. Grab a lot of causes first. Right? Right. East of Eden and then Giant. I've seen them all. Amazing. Okay, well, they might have seen there's no Blood from Emma. It called There Will Be Blood.

[Jim]

There Will Be Blood. Perfect.

[Mark Dennis]

Daniel Day Lewis. They've seen Saving Private Ryan.

[Jim]

Yep. For sure.

[Mark Dennis]

You haven't? Then I'm out of here.

[Jim]

Yeah, no, they have.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay. Forest Gump.

[Jim]

Have they.

[Mark Dennis]

These are new classics.

[Jim]

Have they seen Fury? Have you seen Fury?

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, my God. I can't believe you're bringing up Fury. So. I really appreciate Brad Pitt.

[Jim]

Yeah, me too.

[Mark Dennis]

Glorious bastards. Please say. Okay, they're done.

[Jim]

Amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

They saw that. They're done. They don't to see anything. Here's what I love about Brad Pitt. Pitt is the guy I loved Fury.

[Jim]

Yeah, Fury was amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

My son just saw it and he talks to me about it all. He goes, daddy, this is incredible. The scene under the tank when the.

[Jim]

Yeah, it's amazing. It's an amazing movie. And what I love about Brad Pitt is he is that very rare actor who is both a legitimate movie star, but also a really good actor. And I love that he takes the types of projects that he takes, because.

[Mark Dennis]

With you on this, like, with you on this, it's just like, are you kidding me?

[Jim]

This guy is a bona fide big movie star, and yet he makes Fury, and yet he does it for Tarantino in the Hollywood movie. Tarantino.

[Mark Dennis]

I love.

[Jim]

I love.

[Mark Dennis]

Oh, my God, that movie.

[Jim]

Amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

Once Upon a Time in la. In Hollywood.

[Jim]

In Hollywood. Once Upon a Time in LA is.

[Mark Dennis]

With Julia Butter and the little girl talking to amazing DiCaprio, who's also brilliant.

[Jim]

They're both brilliant.

[Mark Dennis]

Okay, so we were on the same page. Oh, totally. I mean, what's that movie? It's crazy. Dallas Buyers Club.

[Jim]

Oh, amazing.

[Mark Dennis]

Because, you know McConaughey, you know, he's at all Texas. Yeah. And I didn't really watch any movies. He. He was. Until I saw that show about True Detective. I would suggest that true to first season only, you just took my.

[Jim]

My recommendation. I was going to recommend. Recommend the first season of True Detective.

[Mark Dennis]

There you go. We're done here, Art.

[Jim]

We are done.