Are Democracies Copying Russia's Repressive Playbook?

Summary

Inside Geneva – "Are Democracies Copying Russia's Repressive Playbook?"

Podcast: Inside Geneva
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Air Date: October 14, 2025
Produced by: SWI swissinfo.ch

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Overview

This episode of Inside Geneva, hosted by Imogen Foulkes, examines the wave of authoritarian tactics spreading from Russia to democratic countries. Using the latest UN human rights report on Russia as a springboard, the show convenes leading writers, journalists, and UN officials to discuss the erosion of press freedom, suppression of protest, the manipulation of history, and the warning signs of creeping authoritarianism in democracies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Russia’s Repressive "Handbook" and Its Export

• Mariana Katsarova (UN Special Rapporteur on Russia):
  • Russia operates a "state sponsored system of fear and punishment" erasing dissent and dismantling civic space ([02:48]).
  • Russian authorities are "trying to rewrite history, to annihilate historical memory"—especially about Soviet-era crimes and dissent ([03:41]).
  • The "indoctrination" and manipulation extends to youth via institutionalized propaganda in schools to reshape the outlook of the young ([04:36]).
• Katsarova’s Warning: The techniques for repression used in Russia—the so-called "handbook"—are being picked up by leaders in democratic countries ([00:26], [21:23], [23:14]).

2. The Erosion of Free Speech in Democracies

• The episode frequently compares Russia’s suppression of speech to worrying trends in western democracies.
• Boris Akunin (Exiled Russian Writer):
  • Defines Russia’s "foreign agent" law as a tool to brand and exclude dissident voices, noting its arbitrary designation and career-ruining impact ([06:35]).
  • Expresses concern at similar methods appearing in democracies: "I'm watching now closely what's happening in the United States with closing of these programs... Because this is how it starts" ([01:35], [26:09]).
• Irene Khan (UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Expression):
  • Highlights how the playbook for silencing the media is spreading: "Go after the media if you want to stay in power. What is happening now is that more and more countries, we see an authoritarian trend..." ([01:14], [16:42]).
  • Points to media ownership concentration, use of strategic lawsuits against journalists, and political pressure on outlets as symptoms in Europe and the US ([18:56]).

3. Dangers of Historical Amnesia and Indoctrination

• Katsarova discusses the Russian strategy of erasing uncomfortable parts of history (gulags, Stalinist repression) and combining it with the indoctrination of youth to justify the present war and label dissenters as "enemies" ([04:36]).
• Svetlana Alekseyevich echoes: "We were thinking, well, nothing bad is really happening around us... And yet nobody is really taking it serious enough to work with young people... Now we find ourselves in a situation when fascism is all around us." ([10:44])

4. Firsthand Testimony from Repressed Journalists

• Alsu Kurmasheva (Journalist, Radio Free Europe):
  • Spent nine months imprisoned in Russia after failing to register as a "foreign agent" ([13:23]).
  • Describes how freedom and democracy are not automatic: "This is something that has to be developed. This is something has to be taken care of." ([15:10])
  • Warns: "I know democracy and press freedom sounds very vague for people who live ordinary lives… But actually when it comes to you, to your door and rings your bell, it's too late." ([26:34])

5. Notable Domestic Parallels: The Jimmy Kimmel/ABC Case

• The episode references the removal of Jimmy Kimmel from air by ABC in the US as an example of chilling effects on media reminiscent of Russia’s tactics ([01:30], [16:07], [20:52]).
• Akunin: Cautions about society’s response to program closures, pointing to this as a warning sign ([26:09]).

6. Signs and Mechanisms of Authoritarian Drift in Democracies

• Katsarova:
  • Warning signs include: political manipulation of truth, silencing or dismissing journalists, and making "truth" a political commodity ([23:14]).
  • Rise of populist parties and hate speech echoing Russian rhetoric against minorities as early markers ([23:14]).
  • Introduction and discussion of "foreign agent" laws and criminalization of activists can presage greater clampdowns ([21:23]).
• Irene Khan:
  • Emphasizes the dangers of media ownership opacity, SLAPP lawsuits, and commercial pressures overpowering the public interest role of the media ([18:56], [20:00]).
• Both warn that complacency is dangerous, as these trends can arrive subtly before suddenly becoming entrenched ([24:58]).

7. The Power and Peril of Silence

• Alekseyevich:
  • "The worst things are happening in the world when good people are keeping silent." ([25:24])
  • Urges action, not just observation, to preserve freedoms for future generations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mariana Katsarova
  "I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for repression that the Russian government is using against its own civil society. And this handbook unfortunately has been copied by other leaders of democratic countries." ([00:26])

• Alsu Kurmasheva
  "I know democracy and press freedom sounds very vague for people who live ordinary lives... But actually when it comes to you, to your door and rings your bell, it's too late." ([26:34])

• Boris Akunin
  "A foreign agent is anybody they do not approve of. It is not decided by a court of justice or something, just some government is which says that you are a foreign agent, which means you cannot write, you cannot publish, you cannot teach, you are branded." ([06:35])

  "Democracy, traditional democracy is in crisis... We're entering a totally new world where everything will be different." ([07:05])

• Svetlana Alekseyevich
  "We are sitting here with fascism surrounding us... I think there is still this lack of understanding in Europe about what is actually taking place in Russia." ([10:44])

  "The worst things are happening in the world when good people are keeping silent." ([25:24])

• Irene Khan
  "Go after the media if you want to stay in power. What is happening now is that more and more countries, we see an authoritarian trend coming generally into politics." ([16:42])

  "We see an increase in slaps. These are strategic legal action that are brought against journalists. We see that increasingly now in the US..." ([18:56])

• Mariana Katsarova
  "When the truth becomes a political commodity, when journalists are being sacked or silenced or programs are being closed only because a leader or government don't like the sound of truth... that's a warning sign." ([23:14])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:22] – Boris Akunin warns about protester repression in Russia.
• [00:26] – Mariana Katsarova on Russia’s repression "handbook" being copied by democracies.
• [02:48] – Katsarova summarizes Russian repression: "a state sponsored system of fear and punishment."
• [03:41] – On intentional erasure of historical memory in Russia.
• [06:16] – Russia’s "foreign agent" law; Boris Akunin describes its impact.
• [07:05] – Akunin on crisis in western democracy and communication failures.
• [10:44] – Svetlana Alekseyevich on democratic retreat and rising fascism.
• [13:23] – Alsu Kurmasheva describes arrest, detention, and the cost of reporting in Russia.
• [15:10] – Kurmasheva on the need to cherish press freedom and democracy actively.
• [16:42] – Irene Khan details how authoritarian repression of media starts and spreads.
• [18:56] – Khan on warning signs in Western democracies (media ownership, lawsuits).
• [21:23] – Katsarova connects Russian tactics to trends in Europe and the US.
• [23:14] – Key warning signs: truth as political commodity; populist rhetoric and hate.
• [25:24] – Alekseyevich’s call against silence.
• [26:34] – Kurmasheva’s warning: "when it comes to you… it’s too late."
• [28:09] – Irene Khan (preview for next episode) on censorship and journalism in Israel-Gaza context.

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Conclusion: Warnings and Call to Action

The episode concludes with all contributors—Russian, Belarusian, and international—urging vigilance, curiosity about the world, and alertness to the early warning signs of repression. The echo throughout: Complacency is a luxury democracies can no longer afford.

"Don't let it happen... I'm watching now closely what's happening... Because this is how it starts."
— Boris Akunin ([26:09])

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Further listening on Inside Geneva: Upcoming episodes will tackle press freedom during the Israel-Gaza conflict and ask whether the United Nations can endure without the United States.

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This summary omits all advertisements, intros/outros, and non-content segments.

Transcript

[Imogen Folks]

This is inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen Folks, and this is a production from Swiss Info, the international public media company of Switzerland. In today's program, people protesting in the.

[Boris Akunin]

Streets of Moscow just today under the threat of arrest.

[Mariana Katsarova]

I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for repression that the Russian government is using against its own civil society. And this handbook unfortunately has been copied by other leaders of democratic countries.

[Svetlana Alekseyevich]

Russia's last independent radio station has been taken off the air.

[Alsu Kurmasheva]

It's been more than a year since I got released from prison. Every morning I open my eyes. I'm so thankful. I know democracy and press freedom sounds very vague for people who live ordinary lives. But actually when it comes to you, to your door and rings your bell, it's too late.

[Boris Akunin]

Well, it's fake news, you know, it's just so. It's so fake. That's why the media has so little credibility.

[Irene Khan]

This issue about the media has been there in the authoritarian rule book for a long time. Go after the media that you want to stay in power. What is happening now is that more and more countries we see an authoritarian trend coming generally into politics.

[Imogen Folks]

Breaking news tonight. ABC is pulling Jimmy Kimmel live indefinitely.

[Boris Akunin]

Just be aware of this danger. Just don't let it happen. I'm watching now closely what's happening in the United States with closing of these programs. How is the society, society going to react? What will happen? Because this is how it starts.

[Imogen Folks]

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen. Folks, in today's program, we're going to take a deep dive into the latest United nations report on human rights in Russia and ask how it might relate to those of us living in what we hope are free democratic societies. How free are we really? Our press freedom, the right to protest peacefully or even the right to question your government being eroded in our own countries too. Should we be worried about creeping authoritarianism and what are the warning signs? That's the discussion we're going to have today. We'll be hearing from UN experts and from writers and journalists who have first hand experience of what repression of freedom of speech means. But first to that latest UN report on Russia.

[Mariana Katsarova]

Russia is now run through a state sponsored system of fear and punishment where dissent is erased and civic space dismantled.

[Imogen Folks]

Mariana Katsyrova, the UN Special Rapporteur on Russia, is the first UN expert ever appointed to investigate a permanent member of the UN Security Council. Her latest report was presented to the Human Rights Council's autumn session. It documents a repression so stifling that virtually all freedom of expression is silenced.

[Mariana Katsarova]

And still the remnants of civil society and independent media are being persecuted, prosecuted and imprisoned.

[Imogen Folks]

Immediately after presenting her report to UN member States, I caught up with Mariana Katsarova to hear more about her findings.

[Mariana Katsarova]

One of the trends of this repression at large has been the authorities of Russia trying to rewrite history, to annihilate historical memory about events connected to their history, like World War II victory or the Stalinist repressions and the Soviet era crimes. So there is a strategic effort to destroy toward historical truth about the past, particularly when this past was about dissidents and resistance to the Stalinist repression or the crimes that were happening.

[Imogen Folks]

What does it mean for a society? I mean, this war has been going on more than three years. What does it mean for society when its culture, its memories, in a way are being stamped on in this way?

[Mariana Katsarova]

I think what it means for the society at the moment. The Russian authorities are using education to also destroy the outlook of the young to history, but also to the future and to the present. There are these special lessons that they have for children, conversations about the important lessons about the important. And the important is propaganda about Ukraine not being a state state or the Ukrainians not being a separate country. At the same time, it's done in a way that or on the background of distortion of historical truth about what Stalin did with all these dissidents and political prisoners, the millions that perished in gulags, and then the whole indoctrination of children about the war that is going on, trying to justify that it's stems from the collective west being against Russia and the Russians. And also that there are enemies of the motherland that need to be destroyed, put in prison, stopped. And these enemies are the human rights defenders, journalists, writers, humanitarians.

[Imogen Folks]

To hammer home the report's findings and to remind UN member states that there are still Russian voices trying to speak out. Ms. Katsarova brought Russian writers and journalists to Geneva. Some who still live in Russia gently refused interviews, fearing for their safety once they return. Russia's foreign agent law no, it's not about spies and espionage these days.

[Boris Akunin]

It's Russian journalists that are in the hot seat.

[Imogen Folks]

Others, like writer Boris Akunin, now live in the United Kingdom. He was recently designated a foreign agent by Moscow and sentenced in absentia to 14 years in prison for criticizing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

[Boris Akunin]

So a foreign agent is anybody they do not approve of. It is not decided by a court of justice or something, just some government is which says that you are a foreign agent, which means you cannot write, you Cannot publish, you cannot teach, you are branded.

[Imogen Folks]

We've got a lot of debate about free speech in the so called west right now. How do you perceive that debate?

[Boris Akunin]

Well, I think that the west these days is in deep crisis. Democracy, traditional democracy is in crisis. Reasonable and grown up people have become a minority. I believe that political elites and traditional parties are all in total crisis. I think that we fail to understand that the tide has changed, that the world has changed, that the political system created by the fall of the Berlin war is done. It's over. We're entering a totally new world where everything will be different. I'm very much worried about what's going to happen in uk, in France, in United States. It has already happened.

[Imogen Folks]

You mean moving from democracy to authoritarianism.

[Boris Akunin]

Moving from common sense to craziness on both sides. It can be leftist extremism, quite infantile. It can be right wing extremists, which is even more dangerous. And there is a very tiny space in between. So what we are in need of, I think a total reshaping of liberalism. We need not a childish liberalism, we need a grown up liberalism, which brings us to freedom of speech. We need to be responsible, we need to measure what we say, not because we are afraid of being cancelled or censorship, but because we are grown ups. If we say something publicly, we must understand the consequences. Another big issue of Western democracy is is inability to communicate with people who are less educated than yourself. This snobbery, this inability to compete with Trump, who knows how to speak with people. He can find the words, he can find the reasons, he can find the levers. Why cannot we do that? Our ideas are.

[Imogen Folks]

Well, I mean, anybody can tell lies.

[Boris Akunin]

You don't have to lie. But I know that we, in Russia, we lost because we were too snobbish. There was a famous Russian saying, which I absolutely hate, belonging to a famous Russian poet. It says, if I need to explain this, then you're not worth explaining it to. That's how it sounds. That's how we mostly talk to ourselves, to people who think like ourselves, while we should have talked to people who do not think ourselves, who are different. And the same thing is happening in the west.

[Imogen Folks]

Totally from common sense to craziness. Not an especially hopeful analysis from Boris Akunin. Also in Geneva was Belarusian writer Svetlana Alekseyevich, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2015 and author of Second Hand Time and the Unwomanly Face of War. Also now an exile from her own country. And speaking through her tireless interpreter, Elena, she shared Boris Akunin's concerns about the direction many current political leaders are taking.

[Svetlana Alekseyevich]

Yes, I think it's the kind of trial that the world is facing today because democracy is in retreat. And there are more and more figures such as Putin, Viktor Orban, and now Donald Trump. There seems to be a kind of lack of awareness in the world about what's really happening today. The same as 20 years ago. We were thinking, well, you know, let it develop this democracy, okay, it's weak, but it will slowly grow. And we were thinking, well, nothing bad is really happening around us. Let it do it its own, let it go its own way. And yet nobody is really taking it serious enough to work with young people, with the emerging generations, with people in general, to reflect upon what was happening to us, what is actually going on around us. And now we find our situation ourselves in a situation when fascism is all around us. We are sitting here with fascism surrounding us. I think there is still this lack of understanding in Europe about what is actually taking place in Russia. They were saying to themselves, not surely not ashism. Similarly to what we said before Putin attacked Ukraine. We said, well, not really, it can't happen. Putin would not attack Ukraine. We haven't developed the criteria to assess this new life we're living in.

[Boris Akunin]

A Russian Human rights monitor reports the.

[Imogen Folks]

Police arrested more than 1600 protesters across Russia. Russia's proposed bill on fining Internet users for accessing online content labeled as extremist by Russian authorities. Tensions have been escalating between the Trump administration and one of the world's most prestigious universities, Harvard. The White House has given Harvard an ultimatum to ditch diversity programs and muzzle campus activism or lose billions in federal funding. Are we in denial about Russia or about the new and repressive direction the world may be taking? In fact, the panel discussions Mariana Katsarova organized to allow writers like A. Kunin and Alexeivich to share their views were completely full, standing room only. And there was testimony from journalists with first hand experience of the risks of trying to report objectively from, from a repressive regime.

[Alsu Kurmasheva]

I am Elsu Kurmasheva. I'm a journalist working for Radio for Europe, Radio Liberty in Prague. After my arrest, detention in Russia, more than nine months in prison, the biggest.

[Svetlana Alekseyevich]

Prisoner swap since the end of the Cold War has taken place between Russia and the West. Those who've been freed include the Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich, and also the former US Marine Paul Whelan, as well as prominent Kremlin critics and anti.

[Imogen Folks]

War campaigners Alsu Kurmasheva is a journalist with Radio Free Europe. She has dual nationality, Russian and American. In 2023, she was arrested and imprisoned after traveling to Russia's Tatarstan region to visit her mother, who was ill charged with failing to register as a foreign agent. She spent months in jail before being freed in last year's historic prison swap. Now she asks people to remember the many journalists, lawyers and human rights defenders who remain imprisoned in Russia.

[Alsu Kurmasheva]

Behind all those numbers and names in the report, there are real people. There are somebody's husbands and wives and their family members, and they are real people who suffered and risked everything for their reporting, just for us and other people to know what's happening in Russia.

[Imogen Folks]

How do you see the freedom of journalists to report objectively on a wider scale? Obviously, this report is focused on Russia, but the climate, to me anyway, feels not ideal in other places too.

[Alsu Kurmasheva]

Well, things are changing. I heard today from several people, and not only journalists, that freedom of speech and democracy are not for granted. This is something that has to be developed. This is something has to be taken care of. And probably we missed an opportunity of taking care of and cherishing democracy and freedom of speech some time ago. But it's never late to start now. It's never late to acknowledge how precious it is, how precious democracy, how precious freedom is.

[Imogen Folks]

Interviewing these writers and journalists now exiled from their home countries because they tried to report, write and express themselves freely, I was struck by their warnings to us to be alert for the signs of authoritarianism, of the repression of freedom of speech. The American TV network ABC has taken the late night talk show host Jimmy.

[Svetlana Alekseyevich]

Kimmel off air indefinitely.

[Boris Akunin]

When a late night host is on network television, there is a licensing. If they're getting a license, I, I would think maybe their license should be taken away.

[Imogen Folks]

The Russia Report was published the same week that in the United States the late night chat show host Jimmy Kimmel was taken off air. The significance was not lost on Irene Khan, the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of expression, who points out that other governments have been adopting Russia's tactics for quite some time.

[Irene Khan]

I am concerned about shrinking freedom of expression and it goes back even beyond what has happened in Russia since the invasion of Ukraine. My first mission in this current position as the this Special Rapporteur on freedom of opinion and expression was to Hungary. And in Hungary I discovered how the Orban government has captured the media and they started. The first legislation that was ever introduced by that government was in 2010 and it was the Media Act. So it was quite clear that if you want to take over institutions in a country, if you want to entrench your authority in an authoritarian way, you start with independent media, you undermine them, you control them. And, you know, in, in Hungary, it is also, it's all manipulated through media ownership where basically there is no independent, very little independent media that exists offline, whether in print or broadcast or radio. So I think this issue about the media has been there in the authoritarian rulebook for a long time. Go after the media if you want to stay in power. What is happening now is that actually more and more, more and more countries, we see an authoritarian trend coming generally into politics. And of course, each of them are then looking to how to control the media. Russia has been incredibly complete in the way in which they have captured or removed all independent media. When they introduced the legislation, you know, against speaking about the invasion of Ukraine as invasion, and introduced a number of legislation way back in 2022, at that point, I called it an information blackout. And since then, of course, we know that it has only become deeper. And now independent media is outside, across the border.

[Imogen Folks]

Can I ask you then, because sometimes I sense a certain complacency in what we often loosely term Western democracies that they say, oh, well, but that's Russia. It's not happening here. Are there signs that it is? And if, if there are, what are they for you?

[Irene Khan]

I think there are worrying signs. I would say if you look at media ownership in Western democracies, for a long time, that has been an issue that no one's talked about. The European Union did not require any transparency with regard to media ownership until the Media Freedom act came in. So, you know, and what we have, what we saw were media barons. And the media barons, of course, reduce pluralism and diversity of media. That has been a problem, I think, in Western democracies for a long time. What we see alongside that now happening are other ways of trying to gag media. We see an increase in slaps. These are strategic legal action that are brought against journalists. We see that increasingly now in the US where the President of the United States sues media outlets for defamation. And we see settlements taking place between the President of the United States and a media outlet for millions.

[Imogen Folks]

Do you think those big media outlets in the United States rolled over too quickly? Because that's what a lot of my journalist colleagues say.

[Irene Khan]

Well, it's not for me to sort of judge why they're doing it, but let's not forget that media outlets are commercial outlets, yet the job they do is a public interest job. So there is this sort of tension in these organizations where for commercial purposes, the owners or the top echelon of the media outlets want to settle, whereas the real job, which is the public interest job of providing truth to the population, to have a free debate on many issues that is kind of forgotten. So there is a tension there, and we see that tension working out in this political environment where the authoritarian trends are emerging across institutional capture, restriction on, not just on freedom, the media, but on academic freedom, for example, or artistic freedom across the spectrum of freedom of expression.

[Boris Akunin]

We took the freedom of speech away because that's been through the courts, and.

[Imogen Folks]

We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech. And Mariana Katsarova agrees. We are witnessing repression of freedom of expression on a much wider scale than many of us could have imagined even a year ago. These tactics are not unique to the Kremlin, she warns, and we shouldn't be complacent.

[Mariana Katsarova]

Well, what's happening in Russia and my role? I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for repression that the Russian government is using against its own civil society, journalism, free speech. And this handbook, unfortunately, what we see in the world has been copied by other leaders of other countries, democratic countries, which are starting to experience clampdown on freedom of expression, of closing television stations and shows and newspapers. So I think it's a warning. I mean, the lone foreign agent, for example, which Russia uses against its civil society and cultural figures. Now even in my country, Bulgaria, they're discussing to adopt such a law, or, you know, it happens in other countries as well. I mean, this handbook of repression, or clamp down on freedom of expression is now reaching countries and leaders of countries which for so long have been democratic. I mean, yes, it's within Europe, also the United States at the moment, and this is the warning from Russia. So we shouldn't really abandon the fight for human rights, the support for the civil society there, because it could happen to any of us in any country.

[Imogen Folks]

You say that you feel that looking at Russia, it's a manual for how to repress free speech. And your expressed concern that other countries are reading bits of that manual and thinking, oh, yeah, I'll do that. What are the key warning signs that in a democracy we should watch out for, and how can we stand up for free speech?

[Mariana Katsarova]

Yes. When the truth becomes a political commodity, when journalists are being sacked or silenced or programs are being closed only because a leader or government don't like the sound of truth or speaking truth to the power. Yeah. If that's not what journalism is about. And this is challenged, then this is the first sign. But it's also not covering, even not allowing the news about events to be covered in its entirety. So the truth to be told, that's a warning sign. That's the first sign. And I think so many populists are coming to power. Populist parties are coming to power in different countries. We see it in Europe, for example, who are preaching completely everything against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, all the talks against refugees and asylum seekers and migrants and minorities, you know, lgbt, indigenous people, national minorities, the same as in Russia. The crackdown on LGBT persons activists, the crackdown on indigenous people, national minorities being pronounced extremist organizations, extremist people, and then being criminalized and imprisoned for being extremists. These are the signs. This hate speech starts now to be heard in our parliaments. It echoes the rhetoric of the Russian authorities. But then the Russian authorities are acting on this. I hope that we won't see this happening in our countries.

[Imogen Folks]

And that's a hope shared by the writers and journalists I talked to, starting with Svetlana Aleksevic. They too all warned against complacency and. And urged us not to stay silent in the face of attacks on freedoms many of us so used to them, perhaps may take for granted.

[Svetlana Alekseyevich]

There is a famous saying that the worst things are happening in the world when good people are keeping silent. So the good people in Russia, the good people in Belarus, Belarus are keeping silent, whereas the evil people in both countries are doing what we see in front of eyes. So I don't think we should sing the odds to silence. I don't think it's right because we have, through our silence, we have lost our country in Belarus, by being silent. Those people who are keeping silence, they should really do something. Otherwise, what they're leaving to their children is silence.

[Boris Akunin]

Just be aware of this danger. Just don't let it happen. Don't think that, okay, it's nothing. It's just they close down this program or whatever. We have so many other problems. So I'm watching now closely what's happening in east. In the United States with closing of these programs. How is the society going to react? What will happen? Because this is how it starts.

[Alsu Kurmasheva]

You know, it's been more than a year since I got released from prison. Every morning I open my eyes. I'm so thankful, like everyone involved who brought me back to my family, for my children. This is exactly it. I know democracy and press freedom sounds very vague for people who live ordinary lives, right? As you said, okay, this conflict is happening there. Why would I care? But actually, when it comes to you, to your door and rings your bell, it's too late. Well, that's why, at least to be curious what's happening in different parts of the world, that's our duty as citizens of the free world and act. Small steps.

[Imogen Folks]

And those powerful testimonies from Svetlana Alekseyevich, Maurice Akunin and Alsu Kurmasheva bring us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. We hope you enjoyed what they had to say and perhaps you're motivated by their encouragement not to stay silent, to be aware and to take steps, even small ones, to protect our precious freedom of expression. Coming up in future episodes of Inside Geneva, we'll continue the theme of freedom of expression by talking to journalists about the challenges and pressures around reporting on the conflict between Israel and Gaza.

[Irene Khan]

What Israel is doing, on the one hand, it has blocked access to international media, and on the other hand it claims that local journalists who very often are working for international outlets are either Hamas, associated with Hamas and it's not telling the truth. But Israel can't have it both ways. All Israel has to do is to allow international media in and let international media see what is actually happening.

[Imogen Folks]

And we'll be asking whether the United nations, now 80 years old, can survive without the United States. A reminder, Inside Geneva comes out every other Tuesday. In the meantime, you can catch up on previous episodes. Wherever you get your podcasts. Find out what the laws on genocide really say or how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families and the impact on women and girls of the cup to humanitarian funding. Don't forget to subscribe to us and review us. We're always keen to hear your views. I'm Imogen folks. Inside Geneva is a Swiss info production. Thanks again for listening.

[Irene Khan]

Foreign.

[Imogen Folks]

This is Imogen, folks from Swiss Info's Inside Geneva podcast. This summer, like last year, we're bringing you a fascinating series of summer profiles, starting with doctor, aid worker and now journalist Tamam Aloudat.

[Boris Akunin]

Can we afford to only put roofs on over people's heads and do nothing about the system? If your house was bombed for the first time, I understand if it was bombed for the 17th time and instead of a house you have a tarp and instead of food you have animal feed or grass to eat.

[Imogen Folks]

Then later this month we'll hear from international lawyer and candidate to be judge on the International Court of Justice, Dapa Wakande.

[Boris Akunin]

It's clearly the case that in far.

[Imogen Folks]

Too many cases international law is disregarded and you only have to turn on.

[Boris Akunin]

The news to see that.

[Imogen Folks]

What I do know is that actually.

[Boris Akunin]

International law is increasingly regarded as relevant.

[Imogen Folks]

From now till September. We've got all sorts of amazing people to talk to, from an aid worker in Gaza right now to someone who started his career in Gaza 40 years ago. Join us on Inside Geneva, wherever you get your podcasts.