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- [00:01]
Imogen Folks
Swissinfo podcasts. This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen folks, and this is a production from swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland. In today's program, the race to become the next United Nations Secretary General has officially moved into the open, with member states now invited to put forward candidates to lead the world body from January 2027.
- [00:35]
Susana Malcorra
I am deeply convinced that this is a moment that requires a different type of leadership. And we have tested leadership, nine leaders throughout 80 years that were all men.
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Michelle Bachelet
Multilateralism has a lot of problems, but if we didn't have a multilateral system, children in the refugee camps wouldn't have vaccines, people on displacement wouldn't have support. So there's a lot of things that multilateralism have done and we need to improve.
- [01:03]
Maria Fernanda Espinosa
Trust is something you declare is something you earn, and the way to earn the trust and the credibility through delivery.
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Rebecca Greenspan
My criteria of success as SG is that nobody will ask me again, where is the un? If that question continues, we will be
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Maria Fernanda Espinosa
irrelevant, of course, a woman. It's about time, isn't it? After 80 years, of course.
- [01:38]
Imogen Folks
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen folks, and today we're going to take a look at the race to become the next Secretary General of the United nations, and specifically at three women who are candidates for the role. Michelle Bachelet.
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Michelle Bachelet
Sometimes silence cannot happen, as if civilians are being killed. The Secretary General has to speak, but also has to work and dialogue with all members. Say that doesn't mean dialogue, doesn't mean endorsement. I mean, you can dialogue and work with countries that you have or governments you have criticized. I have worked with governments I have publicly criticized. But that doesn't mean, and does mean that you have to engage.
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Imogen Folks
Rebecca GREENSPAN we have to try and
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Rebecca Greenspan
try again because we are the ones and the Secretary General is the person that can assume the cost of failure, the cost of rejection. And we have to do that. We have to be courageous.
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Imogen Folks
And Maria Fernanda Espinosa.
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Maria Fernanda Espinosa
I think the UN does not suffer from a crisis of purpose or principles enshrined in the Charter. It suffers from a crisis of delivery, of impact, of accountability and of inclusion.
- [02:51]
Imogen Folks
All three women came to Geneva recently for some lively questioning about their qualifications to become what's often called the world's top diplomat, or alternatively, the world's most difficult job. Now, before I start getting complaints, other candidates for UN Secretary General are the two men in the running. Macky Sal of Senegal and Rafael Grossi of Argentina didn't attend the Geneva event. And Guyana's Carolyn Rodriguez Birkett wasn't there either because she wasn't nominated until after it took place. That doesn't mean we're ignoring them. Inside Geneva will continue to report on the race to lead the UN in the coming weeks and months. But today we're going to focus on these three women to explore some of the ambitions they have for the United Nations. First, though, we're going to get an insider's look at what it's like to run for the UN's top job with a woman who put her hat in the ring back in 2016.
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Susana Malcorra
My name is Susana Malcora. I'm the former Foreign Minister of Argentina and the former Chief of Staff of Secretary General Ban Ki Moon. Right.
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Interviewer
So lots of insider experience of the United Nations. You've been taking a look at the current campaign for a new Secretary General. What qualities does it need to do that, John?
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Susana Malcorra
The first one is a moral compass. And the moral compass should be the Charter of the United Nations. We cannot give up on that. In times where international law is not respected, the Secretary General needs to understand that that is centered to what the role of the office is. Clearly, is somebody who has to be ready to take certain risks, calculated risk, at a certain moment, at a certain point, but risk is there, given the current circumstances, is somebody who should be able to bridge among different groups, different perspectives, different views of the world, of the issues, and particularly should be ready to mediate in very, very difficult conflict resolution questions, and should also be somebody who manages resources well, knows how to manage resources, because in this day and age, resources are a critical condition to be able to deliver. So it's many things, and it's sort of a Wonder Woman, the one who can bring all of this together. So I always add somebody who is able to put a strong team that can help bring to bear all these questions.
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Interviewer
That's a lot of qualities to find in one person. But you, of course, you stood yourself to be UN Secretary General. Take us behind the scenes a little bit. What was that like?
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Susana Malcorra
Well, the first thing I have to say is it's a huge honor. I mean, you feel energized. My government decided to put my name forward and you feel the whole responsibility of this. So that's the first thing. The second thing is you are humble because the task is huge. It was huge in 2016. It's probably much bigger now. The other thing is that you, you try to show yourself as you are, which is challenging because you are, you know that you are Being measured by every single word that you say. So you, you have to calibrate, being candid and honest and at the same time understanding that some of the ones who take the decision are watching your words in every moment. So it's the first challenge that you have preparing to be Secretary General. It is clear, not a popular contest. So you need to understand that this is a decision that is taken by a very few, I will say by five, the permanent members of the Security Council. So there is an open piece which was, I would say, was nice and fun, you know, where you had all these debates, all these hustings, all these conversations, all these dialogues, but all of a sudden it became opaque. It went behind closed doors to the Security Council, and essentially you didn't know what happened. And that was quite, quite tense and quite difficult because at a certain point you learn where you stood. And in my case, I was among the ones who could become Secretary General because I had enough votes, but I was vetoed by one of the P5 and that made my career end there.
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Interviewer
So do you know who vetoed you?
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Susana Malcorra
No, I, I, I have some idea, but I, I cannot talk about that. The only thing I can say that I was told it was nothing personal.
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Interviewer
You have been talking a lot recently about the need to have a woman at the head of the United Nations. I mean, it's 80 years of the U.N. still no secretary General. We've seen women leaders in all sorts of countries, even in conservative small C countries, and yet no woman at the top of the United Nations. I mean, how has that been allowed to stay like that for 80 years?
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Susana Malcorra
Well, the system has worked like that. And you know what is interesting? The Charter of the United nations says that men and women are equal. In the charter in 1945, that's quite a progressive language. It says that countries big and small are equal, and it says women and men are equal. But when it comes to the decision of the Secretary General, it is sort of a big question. Why should it be a woman? Well, first of all, because we are more than half the population, and if this represents the peoples of the world, might as well represent the whole population. So that's not even allowed to be discussed. It's a matter of justice, but beyond the justice which some may argue is not good enough. I am deeply convinced that this is a moment that requires a different type of leadership. And we have tested leadership, nine leaders throughout 80 years that were all men. Isn't it the moment to test a female leadership, a women's approach to Problem solving that may have a different way to address the questions we have at hand. To me, that's fundamental. There is too much testosterone in the world these days. Too much. Too many things are decided based on reactions that are not logical, that don't have a rationale behind. So having a woman who can accept no by an answer, but then go back again and try again, and if there is a second no, we'll go back again and try again, because that's how women are, that could make a difference. I'm convinced that if there is a woman at the helm, even the news will be different. Journalists will be interested to meet with that woman. It will bring a light to the UN that will revitalize the un. Maybe it's a very minor thing to say, but I think it will add energy just because it's unexpected. Unfortunately, it's unexpected. So for me, it's fundamental. And of course, I do believe that we have women who can be up to the task.
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Imogen Folks
Well, in Geneva, there was a chance to judge for ourselves whether three key women were up to the task. Michelle Bachelet, former President of Chile and former UN Human Rights Commissioner Rebecca Greenspan, former Vice President of Costa Rica and Secretary General of the UN Conference on Trade and Development, and Maria Fernanda Espinoza, Argentina's former Foreign Minister and former President of the UN General Assembly. They took the stage at Geneva's Graduate Institute to be questioned by a very knowledgeable and engaged audience. With the world increasingly unstable and conflicts multiplying, the first key question was about the role of the UN Secretary General. What can he or she do to fulfil that crucial mandate of preventing and resolving conflict. Maria Fernanda Espinosa had some ideas.
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Maria Fernanda Espinosa
I think a Secretary General should use every tool provided in the Charter and to be, first of all, work very strongly on prevention. That's why I'm proposing a prevention and early action hub has to work as a peacemaker, has to work also to support others when they take the lead on peacemaking. It has to be an onus broker, an impartial agent. But impartiality doesn't mean a silence or paralysis. It really means to be able to bring all the parties together. I did that when I was President of the UN General Assembly. I brought 193 countries together to discuss very complex and contentious issues. Is the ability to convene, the ability to really serve as a true bridge builder. But it is also to be active, to be present, to be present, to be seen when a conflict is about to erupt or When a conflict has already happened, early warning, early action of utmost importance. As we said, the UN is not the only game in town, but the Secretary General should be foot on the ground, active, present, engaged, and be trusted by all member states.
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Imogen Folks
But Michelle Bachelet quickly spotted a possible flaw in the emphasis on bridge building, given some UN Member states are currently aggressively destroying bridges in that they are attacking their neighbors or undermining old alliances. Bachelet argued that the UN Secretary General will sometimes have to stand up and speak out.
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Michelle Bachelet
On one hand, if you have a person who wants to facilitator, but that has no independent judgment, that's not going to be a facilitator, that's going to be a moderator. And the UN doesn't need a moderator. As a Secretary General, if you have, on the other hand, somebody who is independent but has no capability to build trust across the different sides of the problem, you will not be a peacemaker, you will be a commentator of news. So what we need is somebody who understand the moment and we have the tools. It's not true that we don't have the tools. The shutter mentions many of them, of course, the good offices of. Of course, early warning. You need to have early warning signs because you have to read what's happening in the country. But many times what the Secretary needs to do is to facilitate the relation between countries. For example, to find a room or space where people can come together and dialogue, or to open channels when people are refusing to speak to each other. Sometimes silence cannot happen. You cannot be a complex of silence. If civilians are being killed, the Secretary General has to speak, but also has to work and dialogue with all member states. That doesn't mean dialogue, doesn't mean endorsement. I mean, you can dialogue and work with countries that you have or governments who have criticized. I have worked with governments I have publicly criticized, but that doesn't mean endorsement, means that you have to engage to try to reduce the results needed. So I think the secretariat has to be both. And the thing is to identify what can work, because sometimes preventive diplomacy is very important. Sometimes you have to be actively on the field, mediating but anticipating. I think the US has difficulties to anticipate and to prevent crisis from happening.
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Imogen Folks
In her answer, Rebecca Greenspan chose not to disagree with either of her fellow candidates. Instead, she pointed to a previous UN Secretary General as an example she aspired to.
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Rebecca Greenspan
First thing that comes to mind is Kofi Annan. Yes, Kofi Annan was an independent leader and a very effective leader at the same time. So his Example is a good one to follow. Yes, I really, you know, I think that my criteria of success as SG is that nobody will ask me again where is the un. If that question continues, we will be irrelevant. The important thing is to be there. We have become too risk averse. We cannot do that. Our only risk and our only failure is not to try. In many cases I have to say we have stopped trying to. We have to try and try again because we are the ones and the Secretary General is the person that can assume the cost of failure, the cost of rejection. We have to do that. We have to be courageous to be able to do that. Try again and try again. We have to navigate many nos until we get a yes. That's what happened when I intervene in the black yes. Nobody believed that we could do that. We did that within the framework of a war. But we understood that we can agree on something that can be important for millions of people in the world, even if we don't agree on everything. And the other thing is to engage. We have said that I believe in early warning, but to tell you the truth, early warning is not an information system. We many times think about early warning as a lot of information that we see indicators. No, early warning is to listen to the ground, is to listen to the people. That is in all the countries of the world. And sometimes the headquarters is a wall between the ground and the decisions that have to be taken. For that to be effective, you have to have the best team. We have to change the office of the Secretary General and have the best team with the Secretary General.
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Imogen Folks
For months, in fact, perhaps throughout the current Secretary General Antonio Guterres second term, there has been speculation that this time, finally the the next head of the UN really should be a woman. After all, the United nations is over 80 years old and still hasn't had a woman to lead it. So what did our three candidates think about that? Maria Fernanda Espinosa went first.
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Michelle Bachelet
Of course.
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Maria Fernanda Espinosa
A woman. It's about time, isn't it? After 80 years? Of course. But what I say is we need a 360 leader with a lot of energy. What does it mean is that you master the three pillars of the un, that you've been Minister of Defense and it's not. I want to speak about my own bio. But you really need to master. No, you need to master the three pillars, understand how they come together and have the energy to act and transform. Prevention and early warning have to be more than a slogan. It has to be an operating principle. It has to be the tool that the Secretary General has to inform and to advise member states so they can act, to inform yourself so you can act. So basically a 360 secretary general and of course a woman, the best woman, not any woman.
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Imogen Folks
Michelle Bachelet agreed. Yes, a woman. And yes, this must not be a gender equality box ticking exercise.
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Michelle Bachelet
Well, I think that gender, yes, but not any women, if I have to say. One of the reasons that I've been in many different posts is because I'm not trying to maintain myself at that post. I try to do what is need to be done. So I'm not afraid of risking that when I try doesn't work. I'm not afraid of speaking up when it's needed. I'm not afraid to take a plane and get into the place where I need to be, where I have to talk to and produce a dialogue. So I think women that are there to do these kind of things, but not too many candidates, not many there is because we really believe that we want to put all our energy and to produce the results needed for the world.
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Imogen Folks
Rebecca Greenspan kept her answer short and to the point.
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Rebecca Greenspan
I'm running to be Secretary General because I think I am the best person for the job.
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Imogen Folks
But whoever gets this job, and so far there appear to be no standout favorites, will have to deal not just with an increasingly unstable, violent world, but with the task of restoring the UN's relevance. Let's not forget yet the UN has been left out of key diplomacy recently over the Middle east and over the conflict in Ukraine. Here in Geneva, we might all have preferred that experienced UN diplomats rather than politically appointed amateurs had been involved. But the fact remains that millions of people, particularly the younger generation, don't necessarily see the UN as important. So how can the next Secretary General change that? Rebecca Greenspan I think that is true
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Rebecca Greenspan
that the young people feel very worried about their future. And I think that there is a lot of skepticism, as you said, with respect to the UN and the multilateral system. I will nonetheless call on you not to allow skepticism to go to fatalism. Skepticism is a question, but fatalism is a surrender. So I call on you not to allow anybody to tell you or to tell us that we have no choices and that we cannot do better. My second point is that you will rebuild trust when you will deliver, as you said in your problems, when we will address conflicts that are recruiting you and displacing you, when we will care about the planet that we live in and you will inherit when we will face the debt problem that doesn't allow your country to invest in their people in education and health when we will give you a seat in defining the technologies and what we will do for the future. So delivering on the challenges.
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Imogen Folks
Maria Fernanda Espinosa recognized that challenge too.
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Maria Fernanda Espinosa
Trust is not something you declare, it's something you earn and the way to earn the trust and the credibility through delivery. And I think the UN does not suffer from a crisis of purpose or our principles enshrined in the Charter. It suffers from a crisis of delivery, of impact, of accountability and of inclusion. And of course, when we see a young person asking that question, we have come up with the Declaration on Future Generations, a new office for young people. But it is not only about listening to young people. It's about having them being the architects of their own future. Not the victims, but the a agents of transformation in the multilateral space. What that means is decisions that are taken in the multilateral space have to listen to the younger generations, have them bring their ideas and innovation and transform the system. As Secretary General, this is the transformation I want to lead. An intergenerational transformation to regain the trust, the credibility and the purpose of the UN through delivery. It is about impact. It is about touching and transforming people's lives. That's exactly what the UN was called to do. The first phrase of the Charter, which is my favorite one, is we the peoples, and of course we the peoples is the 1.5 billion young people around there in my own team. Now, as a candidate, most of my team are under 30. And it's not to check the box. It is a about having them giving the intelligence, the advice and being part of the proposals that I am bringing to the un. A UN that has to be credible and trust has to be earned.
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Imogen Folks
So a strong pitch to young people there. They, however, don't have much say on who gets to be the next Secretary General. The final approval has to come from the UN Security Council, of which more in a moment. First, how does Michel Bachelet think the UN can regain relevance, especially among young people?
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Michelle Bachelet
I remember once working at UNAIDS and UN Women and a girl says to me, it's not enough that I'll be sitting in the table. I want to discuss the shape of the table so young people have ideas in many of the areas that we see as huge challenges for a need, a multilateral answer like climate change and others and AI, etc. Young people can have play a direct role because they're creative, they have innovative perspective, et cetera. So I Do believe that what the Secretary General has to do, a future Secretary General, is to ensure that the UN not only communicates better, but really is results oriented because it's delivery. What people will realize is this institution doing what they have to do. Is it having the answer that we need? And is it not only listening to us, but because you can listen and not do anything about it afterwards? Is there taking into consideration our demands, our needs? But I have to say also that multilateralism has a lot of problems. But if we didn't have a multilateral system, children in the refugee camps wouldn't have vaccines, people on displacement wouldn't have support. So there's a lot of things that multilateralism have done and we need to improve.
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Imogen Folks
So three strong women candidates there campaigning to lead the United nations and strong conviction. I suspect from millions of people that it really is time for a woman to become Secretary General. But given the challenges the UN faces and the doubt over its relevance, I had one last question for Susannah Malcora.
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Interviewer
We all know that there are huge challenges facing the United nations right now. Financial, geopolitical. Isn't it a bit hard to say now we need a woman? Just as the UN is becoming quite irrelevant and nobody's paying attention. It's almost like setting up a woman to fail.
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Susana Malcorra
Many times I have been asked that question and in fact I have spoken with women who are very active in this idea and that now wonder whether it's the right time. My answer to that it is never the right time, for one reason or another is never the right time. That's why I say, and I insist on this is not only a woman as Secretary General, it's a woman that can build a strong enough team around her to help her handle all these many issues. And women tend to be good thing makers. Women tend to accept the notion of people thinking differently and accepting suggestions. That's what it needed. We cannot have monolithic minds that know it all. We need to have people who are aware that the issues are so many and so difficult that require plurality of approaches to solve them.
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Interviewer
Are you confident then that the UN can survive and stay relevant and that it has a better chance of doing both with the woman.
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Susana Malcorra
I am convinced that the UN is badly needed. And if we were to say we throw it out of the window, but we create something new, I promise you, whatever we create, it will not be very different from what we have. That's the reality. And some of the things the UN suffers from are the result of its own achievements. Now we have 193 member states. We started with somewhere around 50. It almost quadrupled. Why is that? Because the whole post colonial period was part of the UN doing, bringing countries to the fore, providing opportunities for country to declare independence. That's a huge success. But now you have to agree among 193 in the general Assembly. Whatever you do, if you were to create a new institution, will not differ dramatically organically from what we have. What we need is an organization that functions, that has the energy to do what it has to do, that is ready to take the risk that it has to take. And it's really also to recognize that there are certain things that should not be done by the un and there are other institutions like the African Union, like the regional organizations. So set the frame for the big things and then divide on who does what, when and where. Those things should make the UN relevant again. The UN goes beyond the Security Council and the blockage of the Security council among the P5. So there is a need for the UN. There is a need for the UN to be relevant. Being relevant sometimes is being there when, where needed. Even if you don't have the tools to solve all the problems, put the light on the issues, raise your voice at the right place, not only through statements in New York, but be there for the people. I am convinced that this is absolutely needed. That's what I work for. I know that the UN needs to reinvent itself in many ways. And I am persuaded that the new Secretary General, together with many others, is not magic. It's not a miracle, it requires support. But creating an environment, a conducive environment of dialogue among member states is part of the role of Secretary General and that should help get us where we need.
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Imogen Folks
Well, the contest to lead the United nations is continuing. All candidates have had hearings at the UN General Assembly. In the next few weeks, the UN Security Council will begin closed door discussions. They'll take the views of all member states and try to recommend a single candidate. That's when the dreaded veto can come into play. Remember Susanna Malcoura telling me at the start of this podcast that she was vetoed but didn't want to say by whom? Well, the answer to that is complicated. She is from Argentina and it's believed the UK was unhappy with her position over the Falkland Islands. But it's also possible Malcora simply did not have enough support from member states this time around. The United States has said openly it will veto Michel Bachelet because of her stance on women's rights and reproductive rights. This despite the United nations already having multiple agreements upholding women's rights in its original charter, in the Beijing Declaration on Women, in the Sustainable Development Goals. So before we go, here's what Michelle Bachelet had to say about that when I caught up with her after the debate.
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Michelle Bachelet
I do believe that women's rights is something essential. And if I'm Secretary General, I will be continuing pushing for human rights for women's rights, including sexual and reproductive rights, because that's not something that a Secretary General will impose, is that Secretary General has to continue the agreements that the UN has already developed. I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say it because I truly believe if somebody vetoes me, because I believe in democracy, because I believe multilateralists, because I believe in women's rights, because I believe in human rights, I mean, I will be honored.
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Imogen Folks
And those feisty words from a woman who I suspect recognizes all too well the challenges this contest poses bring us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. We hope you enjoyed today's program. Next time, we'll be starting our summer profile series where we'll take a look at modern warfare, cyber attacks, and talk to a man who's working to bring the protection of the Red Cross emblem into the digital age that's out on July 21st. Do join us then. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with Their Families or why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN In Geneva for Justice. I'm impressed, Imogen. Folks, thanks again for listening.