Inside Geneva – "Can the UN Survive?"

Podcast Date: April 14, 2026
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Guest 1: Espen Barth Eide (Foreign Minister of Norway, former UN official)
Guest 2: Heba Ali (Director, Article 109 coalition for UN reform, longtime UN analyst)

Episode Overview

This episode of Inside Geneva tackles the urgent question: Can the United Nations survive? Against a backdrop of escalating international conflict (notably, recent military strikes in the Middle East) and increasing frustration with global governance, host Imogen Foulkes speaks with two heavyweight guests: Espen Barth Eide and Heba Ali. They discuss the UN’s strengths and failings, why reforms are so difficult, and whether the world can reimagine its core institution for peace and cooperation before it’s too late.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the UN: Achievements and Failures

• UN’s Core Functioning:
  • Espen Barth Eide highlights the UN's everyday successes in setting global norms and providing humanitarian aid.
  • Most countries follow UN rules most of the time, helping to avert world wars and promote development since 1945.
    • "The UN was not made to take us to heaven, but to prevent us from going to hell. After 1945, there’s been no new world wars." (Eide, [03:14], [05:42])
  • Humanitarian arms in Geneva are stretched thin, dealing with more crises and dwindling resources.
• Security Council Dysfunction:
  • The UN Security Council is paralyzed by geopolitics, notably the veto power wielded by the US, Russia, and other permanent members (P5).
  • Major conflicts (Ukraine, Gaza, recent US/Israeli strikes in Iran) occur largely without meaningful UN intervention.

2. The Need for Reform and Obstacles to Change

• Representation Gap:
  • The UN Charter was written by 50 countries in 1945; today there are 193 members. The majority were not there to shape the institution.
    • "Almost three quarters of the UN’s membership has not had a say in the rules of the game that they are now bound by." (Ali, [03:42], [29:27])
• Organizational Bloat:
  • Eide warns the UN is "a floria" of agencies and programs; streamlining is needed.
    • "We need an even tougher approach to the number of agency funds and programs – not to stop doing things, but to do them more cost-effectively." (Eide, [09:37])
• Fear of Change:
  • Ali observes that UN leaders worry change could make things worse, which discourages action.
    • "The UN has always feared that change could lead to something worse. So they hang on to what they have and slide further into irrelevance." (Ali, [21:12])

3. Why the UN Struggles with Conflict and Relevance

• Great Power Rivalry:
  • Both guests note that when big powers break the rules, smaller states feel powerless; yet collective action could offer more leverage.
    • "If some big guys are becoming less responsible, the rest of us have to take more responsibility and try to find common ground." (Eide, [12:55])
    • "Trying to negotiate one-on-one with a world superpower is inequitable from the get-go... The alternative is building collective power." (Ali, [32:54])
• Global Governance Skepticism:
  • Some powerful countries in the West are hostile or indifferent to "global governance," viewing the UN as a hindrance.
  • However, the vast majority of states rely on a rules-based order for survival—especially small and developing countries.
    • "If there is no system in which a set of rules can be depended upon, they are for the taking... The idea that global governance is not in their interest is laughable." (Ali, [25:32])

4. Paths to Reform: Article 109 and a New "Global Social Contract"

• Article 109:
  • A little-known UN Charter provision allowing for a formal, full review of the UN’s rules—a process never activated in 80 years.
    • "Article 109 was a concession in 1945... It promised, just sign up for now and within 10 years we will revisit this architecture. It never happened." (Ali, [19:19])
• Who Supports Reform:
  • Brazil, South Africa, Gambia, Kazakhstan, and multiple Caribbean states support a charter review. Other supporters include prominent former leaders and even cautious interest from states like China and France.
• Risks and Why Reform Is Urgent:
  • There’s a danger of irrelevance if regions or groups strike out alone or withdraw (e.g., threats from African states to leave the UN).
  • "The cost of not trying is getting higher and higher by the day... If the whole thing crumbles, then the power [of the P5] means nothing." (Ali, [22:44])
  • Fragmentation (rise of BRICS, G20, ad hoc alliances) might destroy the UN by default.

5. The Secretary General and the Next Chapter

• Selection and Challenges:
  • The next Secretary General’s selection is shaped by P5 approval, limiting the pool and the vision.
    • "The candidate will need to be signed off by the US and Russia in particular. That creates constraints... One of the things that needs to change." (Ali, [37:10])
• Vision for the Future:
  • Both guests call for a leader capable of articulating a new vision to rekindle faith in the UN and orchestrate meaningful reform.
    • "I hope [the Secretary General] can start to position the organization in that new landscape... help us move towards a reform process that can actually deliver." (Ali, [34:53])
    • "If we are able to... streamline, focus and prioritize, we could have a stronger UN." (Eide, [15:25])
• Five Key Reform Principles (from Ali):
  • Restoring the UN's core role in peace and security.
  • Addressing emerging global challenges (climate change, AI).
  • Equitable distribution of power among states.
  • Strengthening respect for law and human rights.
  • Including non-state actors (business, civil society) in governance. ([34:53])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Eide on the UN’s Philosophy:
  "Doug Hammarskjöld said the UN was not made to take us to heaven, but to prevent us from going to hell." ([03:14], [05:42])
• Ali on Reform: "By trying to hang on to the past, we are actually going to accelerate the UN’s decline and likely move it into a state of irrelevance or total collapse." ([20:24])
• Ali on Global Governance:
  "Regular people don't think in terms like global governance, but what it actually provides is security and safety and a world in which we can all thrive when it works well. And that is not currently the case, obviously." ([25:32])
• Eide on Hope and History:
  "History is that after every severe crisis, we come together and try to make a better system... I hope we don't need to relearn this through a third World War." ([01:28], [15:25])
• Ali on the Geopolitical Moment:
  "We need to come together around something where every country has a seat at the table... That's why we turn to multilateralism, because there we can as a bloc achieve something that we can't in a bilateral one on one relationship." ([33:20])

Important Timestamps

• [03:14], [05:42] – Espen Barth Eide on the UN’s indispensable routine operations and the Security Council’s failures.
• [09:37], [09:07] – Debate on the need for radical reform, inclusivity, and streamlining the UN’s agencies.
• [19:00], [19:19], [20:24] – Heba Ali introduces Article 109 and makes the case for a long-overdue Charter review.
• [25:32] – Ali rebuts skepticism of global governance, citing widespread dependence on the system.
• [34:53] – Ali's five key principles for UN reform and vision for the next Secretary General.
• [37:10] – Ali on the difficulties and hopes regarding the Secretary General selection process.

Episode Takeaways

• The UN remains vital but is in crisis, its foundational architecture increasingly outdated and unrepresentative.
• Major reform is both necessary and possible, but entrenched interests, especially among P5 states, are formidable obstacles.
• Article 109 offers a legal and symbolic route to meaningful change, with rising support among non-superpower states.
• Failure to reform risks irrelevance—and, in the worst case, global chaos and a return to "the law of the jungle."
• Visionary leadership and broad coalition-building among nations (large and small) seem to be the best hope for revitalizing the UN for the 21st century.

"If we do not take radical, ambitious, bold action to reimagine this institution, this might be the end of it."
– Heba Ali ([29:27])

"We need a global order that we can share. Actually, we need it more than ever."
– Espen Barth Eide ([15:25])

For those who haven’t listened, this episode is a rich, candid insiders’ debate on why the UN matters, why it might fail, and how the world could possibly save it—before it’s too late.