Inside Geneva goes to New York: what really happens at the UN?

Summary

Inside Geneva: New York Edition – Unveiling the Realities at the UN

Episode Title: Inside Geneva goes to New York: what really happens at the UN?
Release Date: November 12, 2024
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Produced by: SWI swissinfo.ch

In this compelling episode of Inside Geneva, host Imogen Foulkes takes listeners behind the scenes of the United Nations Headquarters in New York. The episode delves deep into the intricate dynamics of global politics, humanitarian issues, and the often-overlooked human rights narratives that unfold within the UN’s corridors. Through in-depth discussions, impactful personal stories, and expert insights, the episode paints a vivid picture of both the challenges and hopes that define the UN’s role in today’s world.

The Paralysis of the UN Security Council

The episode opens with journalist Dawn Clancy expressing her frustration with the UN Security Council's inaction:

Dawn Clancy (03:57): "I do have moments where perhaps I would like to stand up in the middle of the chamber and just say, hey, do something. But that's not professional. And I would get kicked out and I would lose my press pass."

Clancy highlights a pervasive sense of helplessness among journalists and observers witnessing the Security Council’s repetitive speeches and stagnant decision-making, especially regarding crises in Gaza, Sudan, Myanmar, and Syria.

Human Rights in a Deadlocked Political Arena

Louis Charbonneau, UN Director at Human Rights Watch, provides a critical analysis of the Security Council’s dysfunction:

Louis Charbonneau (06:44): "There is political determination on the part of some people to prevent any action to happen. There is political will to block the Security Council from constraining Israel."

Charbonneau critiques the geopolitical divisions among the five permanent members of the Security Council—Russia and China versus the U.S., United Kingdom, and France—and how these divisions impede effective responses to global humanitarian disasters.

Mariana Katsarova’s Report on Torture in Russia

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Mariana Katsarova, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the Russian Federation. She presents her thematic report titled "Torturing the Russian: A Tool for Repression at Home and Aggression Abroad." Katsarova underscores the severe human rights abuses in Russia, both domestically and in occupied Ukrainian territories:

Mariana Katsarova (10:31): "The strategy of torture that has been employed by the Russian authorities against their own people... is also used against Ukrainian detainees in Russian prisons."

Katsarova details the various torture methods, their chilling names, and the victims’ suffering, emphasizing the intertwined nature of repression at home and aggression abroad.

Personal Stories: Voices from the Frontlines

The episode features poignant testimonies from individuals affected by these human rights violations. Vladimir Karamurza, a prominent Russian political prisoner recently released in a historic swap, shares his harrowing experience:

Vladimir Karamurza (15:28): "Just three months ago, I was certain I was going to die in that Siberian prison. I never thought I was getting out. So this miracle... was made possible by relentless, sustained advocacy by so many people in the democratic world."

Karamurza highlights the dire state of political prisoners in Russia, noting:

Karamurza (15:28): "We have more political prisoners in Russia alone now than there were in the whole of the Soviet Union. So that's 15 countries put together."

The Complex Narrative of Russia in the UN

Dawn Clancy reflects on the challenges of representing the multifaceted reality of Russia within the UN framework:

Dawn Clancy (16:27): "When you have to walk a line... if I bring this up about why are you talking about Russia? They invaded Ukraine. But Russia is a country. It's people. That's where all the stories are."

Clancy emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the diverse experiences and struggles of Russian citizens despite the geopolitical tensions and conflicts.

Competing Agendas and Limited Attention

Louis Charbonneau addresses the overwhelming competition for attention among various human rights issues:

Louis Charbonneau (20:01): "They cramp it all into one very short period. And it’s just not fair."

He advocates for staggered scheduling of human rights events to allow adequate focus on each crisis without overshadowing others, emphasizing the need for a more organized approach to advocacy and reporting within the UN.

Strengthening the New York-Geneva Connection

Mariana Katsarova calls for better coordination between New York and Geneva to amplify human rights messages:

Mariana Katsarova (23:00): "I always say to member states in Geneva, please brief your counterparts in, engage them better... the connection between New York and Geneva has to be strengthened."

She stresses that without a unified and collaborative effort between these two major UN hubs, the efficacy of human rights initiatives remains compromised.

Host’s Reflections: The UN’s Duality

Imogen Foulkes concludes the episode by juxtaposing the UN’s bureaucratic challenges with the unwavering resilience of human rights defenders:

Imogen Foulkes (25:14): "We need an effective UN to address that and so many other global challenges. The UN is made up of its member states. They make the policy. They decide."

Foulkes laments the UN’s current state of dysfunction but also highlights the hope embodied by courageous individuals striving for justice and accountability amidst adversity.

Key Takeaways

• Security Council Paralysis: Deep geopolitical divisions among permanent members hinder effective action on global crises.

• Human Rights Advocacy: Despite political inaction, dedicated human rights defenders continue to fight for justice, often at great personal risk.

• Complex Narratives: Addressing human rights requires nuanced understanding, especially in contexts involving conflicted nations like Russia.

• Need for Coordination: Enhanced collaboration between New York and Geneva is essential for amplifying human rights messages and ensuring comprehensive coverage of issues.

• Hope Amidst Challenges: The resilience of individuals advocating for human rights offers a glimmer of hope for meaningful change within the UN framework.

This episode of Inside Geneva masterfully navigates the complexities of international diplomacy, highlighting both the systemic challenges within the UN and the persistent efforts of those striving to uphold human rights. Through personal stories and expert analyses, listeners gain a deeper understanding of what truly transpires behind the UN’s polished façade.

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For more insights and discussions on global humanitarian issues, subscribe to Inside Geneva and explore our library of episodes, including topics like "How the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with Their Families" and "Why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN in Geneva for Justice."

Transcript

[Mariana Katsarova]

Foreign.

[Imogen Folks]

This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen folks and this is a production from Swiss Info, the international public media company of Switzerland.

[Mariana Katsarova]

In today's program, I think it's more difficult to get the human rights message here in New York at the General Assembly. But hopefully, you know, we will be heard.

[Vladimir Karamurza]

The situation with political prisoners in Russia today is no longer a crisis, it's a catastrophe. We have more political prisoners in Russia alone now than there were in the whole of the Soviet union. So that's 15 countries put together.

[Louis Charbonneau]

Gaza, and the situation in Sudan, Myanmar, Syria. So many conflicts and humanitarian disasters. And there's an inability of the member states to reach an agreement.

[Dawn Clancy]

I do have moments where perhaps I would like to stand up in the middle of the chamber and just say, hey, do something. But that's not professional. And I would get kicked out and I would lose my press pass.

[Mariana Katsarova]

So for peace and security, human rights is the core. Without human rights, we cannot have peace or security.

[Imogen Folks]

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen folks, and as maybe you can hear, and as I promised on our last episode, we're here in New York this week in part to see how human rights defenders get on when they put their case here far from the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. But first, slightly embarrassing confession coming up. In all my years as a United nations correspondent and all my visits to New York, I've never actually been inside UN headquarters. So I'm standing outside right now. It is a beautiful sunny autumn day, or maybe since I'm here, I should say Fall day here in midtown Manhattan. And the first thing I'm going to do once I get through UN Security is go and catch up with a New York based colleague.

[Dawn Clancy]

Yeah, I'm Dawn Clancy. I'm a reporter here at UN Headquarters in New York and I write about the un.

[Unnamed Journalist]

You write about the UN from here in New York. What's the, I mean, how high on your radar, your journalist's radar is Geneva? Because in Geneva there's a constant, not just from the journalists, we write about it a lot, but obviously from the whole humanitarian side of the un, which is based in Geneva. Utter frustration, grief almost at the paralysis of the Security Council. Now when we look at all of the conflicts that we've got, we couldn't get any action on Syria, Ukraine, Russia, not really. Now we have the Middle east, nothing there as well. And from Geneva's point of view, they see the kind of rules based order falling apart because of this paralysis.

[Dawn Clancy]

Well, that's absolutely one Thing we have in common, that frustration here being in New York, you get to sit in the room where they're giving their speeches in the Security Council and they're repeating themselves. And, you know, at the end of this meeting, there was just a meeting today on Gaza, on the UNRWA decision made by the Israeli Knesset. And you have all these people sitting around this horseshoe table talking, and you know nothing's going to happen afterwards, which is frustrating, just like people in Geneva. And I guess being here, I do have moments where perhaps I would like to stand up in the middle of the chamber, just say, hey, do something. But that's not professional. And I would get kicked out and I would lose my press pass.

[Unnamed Journalist]

So, no, but I'm with you. I think we're all inside standing up and shouting and saying, hey, do something. But is there any feeling, do you sense it ever in New York that if this goes on, we might as well not have the United Nations?

[Dawn Clancy]

I have thought that before. I have. Especially when the war in Ukraine bursts open. I definitely thought that because I guess I was still fairly new here and I just had this expectation that the Security Council was going to have a meeting, they were going to get on it and they were going to fix it. And that didn't happen, of course. But as time has gone on, I have grown to appreciate the role that the United nations plays, even if it can fulfill its mandate, or we were talking about a specific organ like the Security Council, but it is truly the one place in the world where all these world leaders can get together. Even if they're not talking to each other, they still all convene here, you know, un a high level week. And I think that is really important because otherwise I don't know where else that would happen. You know what I mean?

[Imogen Folks]

So I'd actually go along with Dawn's view there. The UN is still really the only place the big powers regularly get together and talk. And goodness knows, right now we need them to do that. But as you can hear, I'm back outside UN headquarters trudging the streets of Manhattan. If you're ever here, bring comfy shoes. But it's worth it because. Because our next stop is really quite special.

[Louis Charbonneau]

Louis Charbonneau, UN Director at Human Rights Watch. And we're in New York City in our headquarters in the Empire State Building.

[Unnamed Journalist]

So prime real estate. Very lucky to be here. I think I'm quite interested since I've been here a couple of days now. And it's kind of weird that although I've been a UN correspondent myself for 20 years now. I've actually. It's the first time I've been into the UN In New York, some of the things felt really the same. Other things felt really quite different. I'm wondering in Geneva because it's the humanitarian headquarters of the UN There is frustration pretty much from top to bottom at New York that the humanitarian agencies feel that they are having to mop up blood, literally because of the failures in New York of the political wing of the United Nations.

[Louis Charbonneau]

So, yes, New York, as the United nations headquarters, really is kind of the political center of the UN System. And certainly, if you look at the UN Security Council and you consider what it does or doesn't do on issues like the horrific hostilities in Gaza, on the situation in Sudan, Myanmar, Syria, so many conflicts and humanitarian disasters that have been going on for a very long time. And there's an inability of the member states to reach an agreement. And it's really disagreements among the big powers, really the five permanent Security Council members, Russia and China on the one side, and the U.S. united Kingdom and France on the other side. There are these deep geopolitical divisions that we increasingly see. They're making it difficult for the Security Council to do anything. And then, yes, in Geneva, your humanitarian people are left to deal with this. And you're right to talk about mopping up the blood. And it's almost a cliche to talk about a lack of political will. And there is that. But it's also that there's a political determination on the part of some people to prevent any action to happen. There is political will to block the Security Council from constraining Israel. I mean, we at Human Rights Watch and other organizations have called on governments to stop supplying weapons, that they call on Israel to comply with international humanitarian law, but then they give them bombs that weigh thousands of pounds and are inherently indiscriminate in a densely populated place like Gaza. I don't see how they can reconcile those two things. But double standards, no border. We see Russia talking about protecting civilians in Gaza, China as well. And we all know what Russia is doing in Ukraine, where they're bombing hospitals and schools and theaters and the reports of torture in detention and summary execution of prisoners. But if there's one thing that is really difficult to listen to is the way that governments compartmentalize and they will condemn Russia for attacking civilians in Ukraine, which they should, and we do that as a good thing, we would never want to say, don't do that, but then to turn around and to Give the government of Israel a free pass because it's their friend and ally. It really undermines the message when they're saying the right things about accountability and protection of civilians in one context and then turning around and saying, well, but it's okay in Gaza. It harms the message.

[Imogen Folks]

But into that UN paralysis that we all complain about so much in Geneva comes a hopeful UN Special Rapporteur. And back in UN Headquarters, she's got a big day ahead.

[Mariana Katsarova]

I'm Mariana Katsarova. I'm the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the Russian Federation. And we're in in New York, where I am delivering today my new report. It's a thematic report called Torturing the Russian A Tool for Repression at Home and Aggression Abroad.

[Unnamed Journalist]

You've also got an event here with former political prisoners from Russia, former Ukrainians who have been held in Russia. It's been viewed as somewhat controversial to put Ukrainians and Russians on the same panel for a side event. And yet I sense that what you're wanting to show New York, and particularly people who may have a rather simplistic view, is that in both these countries there are people absolutely dedicated to promoting human rights.

[Mariana Katsarova]

I think it's very important to keep in mind the title of my report and the link between repression at home and aggression abroad. And I think this is manifested through the tool of torture, the strategy of torture that has been employed by the Russian authorities against their own people, against the political prisoners, the marginalized group like LGBT persons, or conscientious objectors to military service, or demobilized men who refuse to fight in Ukraine, indigenous people, national minorities. At the same time, the same severe torture methods are used against Ukrainian detainees in Russian prisons. They catch them on the occupied territories, arbitrarily detain them Ukrainian civilians, Ukrainian military, and then deport them to the Russian Federation, where many of these people are kept without the charge, again, incommunicado, being subjected to torture, anything from sexual violence and rape to use of electric shocks. All these torture methods actually have colorful names. This is how in the Russian law enforcement system, they're known both by victims and perpetrators. So, for example, the electric prolonged electric shocks to the sensitive parts of the body, very often to the genitals, using a field military telephone called TAPIC is known in Russia as a call to friend or a call to Putin. This is the name of the torture method. I mean, there are many of these colorful names. It's almost sinister. And I have presented them in the report putting the Ukrainians and Russians together is also because first of all, at my invitation here are more than two dozen Russian human rights defenders from inside Russia and outside who are continuing their human rights work. But also I've invited representative, the director of the Nobel Peace Prize winning NGO center for Civil Liberties from Kiev, who are continuing together the two civil societies to help each other in finding the Ukrainian detainees or documenting abuses from for future court proceedings and accountability. The work that these human rights organizations are doing, they're doing it together in a way. And this is the hope for the future as well, because in any war you have the level of unacceptance and even hatred between people. But here we have human rights defenders working together in order to hear have this future justice for the war crimes, for the torture which is performed by the Russian authorities both in the Russian Federation and inside Ukraine.

[Imogen Folks]

This was the inspiration Mariana Katsyrova tried to instill in jaded diplomats in New York. As you can imagine from her descriptions there, the experiences of the human rights defenders she brought to the UN from both Russia and Ukraine were often hard to hear. The side event heard from a very young woman living in Kiev who, visiting her father in Crimea, who was ill with cancer, was arrested and detained in Russia for months. It also heard from one of the most famous Russian political prisoners of all time, Vladimir Karamurza, recently released in a historic prisoner swap.

[Vladimir Karamurza]

Just three months ago, I was certain I was going to die in that Siberian prison. I never thought I was getting out. So this miracle, the prisoner exchanged on the 1st of August, it was a miracle. That's the only way I can describe it. But it was in so many ways a human made miracle that was made possible by relentless, sustained advocacy by so many people in the democratic world. The situation with political prisoners in Russia today is no longer a crisis, it's a catastrophe. We have more political prisoners in Russia alone now than there were in the whole of the Soviet Union. So that's 15 countries put together towards this later period. In the middle of the 1980s in Putin's Russia, people are getting longer prison sentences for peacefully expressing their opinions than other people get for rape or murder or drug trafficking. This is the reality of Vladimir Putin's Russia Today.

[Imogen Folks]

Afterwards, I caught up with journalist Dawn Clancy again.

[Dawn Clancy]

I found this event to be incredibly informative and I did indeed learn loads of what I didn't know before about Russia torture. When you're here in New York, you're focused on the Security Council and everything's really, really political and you forget the people. But then when you Have a side event like we attended today, and you get to hear stories of people who were political prisoners and held in jails and then released. And you see the pain on their faces and you hear it in their voices that they're trying to make a difference. I mean, that's really impactful. And I think that goes back back to your question about UN and its relevancy. That is one of the gems of the UN is that we can have events like that and people can come together in that humanitarian space and get regular people to talk about the impact of decisions that are being made at the UN or not being made at the UN And Security Council and how it impacts them.

[Unnamed Journalist]

Do you think it's particularly important at this juncture for Russians, human rights defenders in Russia, to come across the pond to the United States and show this different picture? A very repressive regime, not necessarily one you can easily do a deal with. And the fact that there are still people, very different Russians, who are defending their human rights despite the huge risks to themselves.

[Dawn Clancy]

Absolutely. Because in war, what's the first. They say, what's the first casualty of war? It's the truth. Okay. That's absolutely the case here. And it happens here at the UN and you get a very closed picture of what's happening. Before I attended that event, I would not have known about these Russian lawyers and advocates who are fighting for people who are wrongfully imprisoned. I absolutely think that needs to be part of the conversation. And the reason it needs to be is because it's almost taboo to do so in the first place, to mention while there's a war going on in Ukraine. Well, you know, there's also people on the Russian side who are struggling. The more we have those conversations, the more people will get used to it. And maybe we can work with that taboo a little bit, but it is a bit frustrating, even as a journalists, because you have to walk a line. Well, if I bring this up about why are you talking about Russia? They invaded Ukraine. But Russia is a country. It's people. That's where all the stories are. That's where all the shading is.

[Imogen Folks]

But it's not just the lack of nuance in our understanding of what's happening in Russia. That's a challenge for Russian human rights defenders hoping for support here in New York. Over the next 48 hours, there's a packed program at the UN the Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine will deliver its report to the General assembly, which will also hear multiple reports on the Middle East. I've literally just Bumped into Navi Pillay, former UN Human Rights Commissioner and now the chair of the inquiry team for Israel and the occupied territories. All this is likely to suck attention away from people, courageous though they are, who come from a country many diplomats here view themselves at war with. Let's talk to Human Rights Watch's Louis Charbonneau again.

[Louis Charbonneau]

Russian human rights defenders need to be supported, they need to be nurtured, and there needs to be attention to the work they're doing. It takes so much courage to be a human rights defender in Russia and even outside Russia, because we have seen this increasing phenomenon of transnational repression where it is no longer enough to cross the border from a country where the government might try to put you in prison or torture you or even murder you. So Russia has already proven that it is willing to go abroad and hunt people down. So people who are willing to go out publicly and talk about the situation that they're facing inside Russia, where it has really become just increasingly a full blown authoritarian state. Yeah, it's really, it's great that they had a chance to have a platform.

[Unnamed Journalist]

And yet in the same 48 hours, there was also the Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine. There's the Special Rapporteur on the occupied territories, there's Navi Pillay, who I ran into yesterday, Commission of Inquiry on the occupied territories. So there's this big competition for attention in some of them. And I felt a little bit with the Russian one, not really getting the attention they might actually need.

[Louis Charbonneau]

Yeah, one thing that I wish they didn't do it like this, where they have all of these human rights bodies mechanisms showing up at the same time. They're only 24 hours in a day and eight, nine hours in a workday. And you can only schedule so many press conferences and journalists and diplomats can only go to so many. We shouldn't have them all at the same time. It would be great if they could stagger them so we could have a week with the Russian human rights defenders and Russian human rights experts. A week to talk to the ones who are focusing on what's happening inside Ukraine, then a week to focus on what's happening in Israel, Palestine. But unfortunately, I'm not the one who's scheduling these things. And they cram it all into one very short period. And it's just not fair.

[Imogen Folks]

Still into this competitive environment goes Mariana Katsyrova. She's just about to head into the General assembly now to present her report on torturing Russia. But I've managed to catch up with her.

[Mariana Katsarova]

I Think it's more difficult to get the human rights message here in New York at the General Assembly. But I'm having my interactive dialogue with states today, so hopefully, you know, we will be heard. I always say to member states in Geneva, please brief your counterparts in, engage them better, because it's the same member states, but with a different level of understanding for human rights here in New York, the delegations and in Geneva, where they're experts, of course in Geneva because they deal with the Human Rights Council issues. So I think the connection between New York and Geneva has to be strengthened.

[Imogen Folks]

What would you like the General assembly to do?

[Unnamed Journalist]

I mean, what would be the, the best outcome once you've spoken to them?

[Mariana Katsarova]

Well, I hope that first of all, in any other resolutions or decisions the General assembly will be taking connected to either the war against Ukraine or the Russian Federation itself, that they take into account my reports and my recommendations, they take into account the situation with human rights. And again, given that the experts of the Member states are at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, I'm really hoping that it will be. I will first of all get their attention, but also they'll be using it and they will be pushing the agenda of putting pressure on the Russian authorities to, to comply with their own obligations to the un, to the international standards, to the UN conventions. That's very important because there cannot be, you know, for peace and security. Human rights is the core. Without human rights, we cannot have peace or security. And this is what New York discusses in the General Assembly. It's protecting the peace and the security.

[Imogen Folks]

That's so nice to see you.

[Dawn Clancy]

You too.

[Louis Charbonneau]

It's really great.

[Imogen Folks]

Peace and security. How wonderful if the UN could really safeguard those things for all of us. But right now it's not doing too well, unfortunately. In this episode we've tried to explore why that might be. From the power games and paralysis of the UN Security Council to an over simplistic black and white view of the world. Just this morning, to Mariana Katsarova's dismay, after all her hard work, the New York Times carried an article about Russian torture in Ukraine, with no mention of the brutal repression faced by human rights defenders, journalists and lawyers inside Russia itself. It's been interesting to see the similarities and differences between Geneva and New York. The same slightly bureaucratic atmosphere, the same soulless UN cafes, the same rigorous security. But over here, more global politics and less detail and focus on human rights. We hear a lot these days about how dysfunctional the UN is, how bloated, how ineffective and frankly, five days in New York has reminded me of all those things. But then I see the hope on the faces of those young Russians who have suffered terrible abuse and have come all the way here looking for support. We need an effective UN to address that and so many other global challenges. The UN is made up of its member states. They make the policy. They decide. They appoint people like Mariana Katsarova to scrutinize human rights in Russia, or Navi Pillay to investigate the situation in Israel and the occupied territories. They do their work. They bring in depth reports to the un. The least member states can do, I think, is listen, understand, and then hopefully act. And that's it. From this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Louis Charbonneau, Mariana Katsarova and Dawn Clancy. We hope you enjoyed our New York adventure. Next time we'll be in Strasbourg, where The Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights is marking 25 years. It's a body that works closely with UN Human Rights and as some listeners may know, Switzerland currently holds the position of Secretary General at the Council. We'll be there for a very special debate, standing up for human rights in challenging times. Do join us then. And for now, thanks for listening to Inside Geneva. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can email us on Inside GenevaissInfo Ch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with Their Families or why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN in Geneva for Justice. I'm Imogen folks. Thanks again for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of Inside Geneva, do take a listen to another of our most popular episodes, aid Organizations and Racism. We are an incredibly diverse organization, as are most humanitarian organizations today.

[Mariana Katsarova]

It has become a lot richer, it has become a lot closer to the beneficiaries, but our structures haven't changed.

[Dawn Clancy]

It's more difficult for me as an.

[Imogen Folks]

African to get into a position of.

[Dawn Clancy]

Leadership, a position of management, than it.

[Imogen Folks]

Would for someone else. We hear how Geneva based humanitarian agencies are soul searching as they stand accused of institutional racism. What's behind the accusations and how are they being addressed?