Inside Geneva's Summer Profiles: A Conversation with international lawyer Dapo Akande

Summary

Inside Geneva: Summer Profiles - A Conversation with International Lawyer Dapo Akande

Host: Imogen Foulkes
Guest: Dapo Akande, Professor of International Law at the University of Oxford, Member of the International Law Commission of the United Nations, and Practicing Barrister in London
Release Date: July 22, 2025

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Introduction

In the latest episode of Inside Geneva, hosted by Imogen Foulkes, listeners are introduced to Dapo Akande, a distinguished international lawyer and a candidate for a judgeship at the International Court of Justice (ICJ). This in-depth conversation delves into Akande's journey, his significant contributions to international law, and his perspectives on the current state and future of global legal frameworks.

Early Life and Motivation

Dapo Akande begins by reflecting on his childhood and the roots of his passion for law. Born and raised in Ibadan, Nigeria, Akande shares, “I was very argumentative as a child, and everyone used to say, you should be a lawyer” (00:21). Growing up in a family of academics, with both parents immersed in scholarly pursuits, Akande developed a keen interest in international affairs from an early age. The constant exposure to the BBC World Service in his household further fueled his fascination with global events and underscored his desire to pursue a career that intersected law and international relations.

Academic and Professional Journey

Akande pursued his initial law degree in Nigeria before relocating to the United Kingdom for graduate studies. Initially planning a short-term stay, he found himself establishing a long-term career in the UK, driven by his deepening interest in international law. He explains, “International law is increasingly regarded as relevant, and actions are judged more nowadays by reference to international law than was the case before” (10:05).

Career Highlights and Notable Cases

One of the pivotal moments in Akande's career was his involvement in the Nigeria vs. Cameroon dispute over the Bakasi Peninsula. Early in his career, Akande worked as an assistant to the first woman judge at the ICJ, who was representing Nigeria in this prolonged boundary conflict. The dispute, primarily over rich oil reserves, threatened to escalate into armed conflict. Akande recounts, “Nigeria ... agreed to cede the territory in a phased process, avoiding war” (08:59). The ICJ's ruling in favor of Cameroon in 2002 not only resolved a significant territorial disagreement but also prevented potential loss of life, highlighting the crucial role of international legal mechanisms in maintaining peace.

Perspectives on International Law

Akande offers a nuanced view of international law, emphasizing its dual role in fostering predictability and providing avenues for justice. “It’s a framework within which states, and by extension people in states, could live together on the basis of predictability, stability, and justice” (04:04). He acknowledges the frequent disregard for international law in contemporary affairs but counters this by noting the increasing global emphasis on legal standards. “International law is increasingly regarded as relevant, and actions are judged more nowadays by reference to international law” (10:05).

Challenges and Double Standards

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the challenges posed by major powers, particularly the United States, in upholding international legal norms. Akande critiques the inconsistent application of international law, often referred to as "double standards." He observes, “The failure to comply has consequences... it gives an excuse for others in other cases also to not comply” (21:10). This hypocrisy undermines the credibility and effectiveness of international legal institutions, making it difficult to achieve universal compliance.

Role of International Law in Sustainable Peace

Akande underscores the importance of adhering to the laws of armed conflict, not only for moral reasons but also for ensuring sustainable peace. He aligns with sentiments expressed by Mariana Spoliaric of the International Committee of the Red Cross, advocating that “fighting within the rules... will make the peace more sustainable” (22:21). This adherence not only preserves human dignity during conflicts but also lays the groundwork for lasting reconciliation and reconstruction post-conflict.

Candidacy for the International Court of Justice

As a prospective judge of the ICJ, Akande articulates his motivation rooted in a lifelong commitment to strengthening international legal frameworks. “It’s about helping to develop and sustain that framework of rules that provide for predictability, stability, and justice” (24:08). He views his potential role at the ICJ as an extension of his efforts to facilitate peaceful dispute resolutions and enhance the clarity and application of international law.

Conclusion

Imogen Foulkes concludes the episode by highlighting the vital insights shared by Dapo Akande, emphasizing the indispensable role of international law in today's tumultuous global landscape. Listeners are encouraged to follow upcoming episodes featuring other prominent figures in the field of international aid and justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dapo Akande (00:21): "I was very argumentative as a child, and everyone used to say, you should be a lawyer."

• Dapo Akande (04:04): "It’s a framework within which states... could live together on the basis of predictability, stability, and justice."

• Dapo Akande (08:59): "Nigeria... agreed to cede the territory in a phased process, avoiding war."

• Dapo Akande (10:05): "International law is increasingly regarded as relevant, and actions are judged more nowadays by reference to international law than was the case before."

• Dapo Akande (21:10): "The failure to comply has consequences... it gives an excuse for others in other cases also to not comply."

• Dapo Akande (22:21): "Fighting within the rules... will make the peace more sustainable."

• Dapo Akande (24:08): "It’s about helping to develop and sustain that framework of rules that provide for predictability, stability, and justice."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the conversation between Imogen Foulkes and Dapo Akande, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who have yet to listen to the episode.

Transcript

[Dapo Akande]

FOREIGN.

[Imogen Folks]

This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen Folks, and this is a production from Swiss Info, the international public media company of Switzerland. In today's program, I think I was.

[Dapo Akande]

Very argumentative as a child, and everyone used to say, you should be a lawyer.

[Unknown]

The International Court of Justice is. Is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations.

[Dapo Akande]

I always had this interest in international affairs. And when I saw that there was an area of law that actually dealt with international affairs, I thought, yes, that's the bit that I'm interested in.

[Unknown]

The court's role is to settle, in accordance with international law, legal disputes submitted to it by states.

[Dapo Akande]

It's clearly the case that in far too many cases, international law is disregarded. I think that is true. There are many instances where the law is not followed, and you only have to turn on the news to see that. What I do know is that actually international law is increasingly regarded as relevant and actions are judged more nowadays by reference to international law than was the case before.

[Unknown]

FOREIGN.

[Imogen Folks]

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen folks, and today we bring you the second in our series of summer profiles where amid all the talk about international law, who's respecting it, who's violating it, and if it's even really effective. I'm delighted to welcome someone who has devoted his career to international law and is now a candidate to to be a judge on the world's top court, the International Court of Justice.

[Dapo Akande]

I'm Dapo Akande. I am professor of international law at the University of Oxford. I'm also a member of the International Law Commission of the United nations, and I'm a practicing barrister in London.

[Unknown]

Very, very legal. Then. I'm always curious. I have a few lawyers in my family. What's the motivation? What did you want to be when you were growing up? Was always, I'm going to be a lawyer. Or did your dad want you to be a lawyer? What was the motivation?

[Dapo Akande]

I'm one of these boring people that I actually always wanted to be a lawyer. I'm not sure exactly what the motivation was when I was younger, but I think I was very argumentative as a child. And everyone used to say, you should be a lawyer. And that kind of stuck. And so that's what I wanted to be.

[Unknown]

So tell me about your childhood then. Because you are Nigerian and British, you grew up in Nigeria?

[Dapo Akande]

That's right. I was born and brought up in Nigeria. I grew up in a city called Ibadan, which is in the southwest of Nigeria. My family, I actually am from a Family of academics. So both my parents, my mother and my father were academics in different disciplines. And so I guess that was the sort of what I was exposed to as, as a child. I studied law in Nigeria, did my first law degree in Nigeria, and then I moved to the UK initially just to do graduate work. And I thought I'd be there for a couple of years, but 30 something years later, I'm still there.

[Unknown]

Yes, this does happen, doesn't it? When you move from one, one country or continent to another, but you're specialized in international law, was that always the drive? You didn't want to be a criminal defense lawyer or a divorce lawyer, you wanted to work in international law.

[Dapo Akande]

So I wouldn't say that from the first day of law school, I wanted to work in international law because I probably didn't know that it existed. But from the moment when I first studied international law, I knew that that was what I wanted to do. And that's for a number of reasons. First of all, because it combines this interest in law, which I was really interested in, with an interest in international affairs which I had actually right from, from childhood. As I said, I was brought up in Nigeria and my parents had the BBC World Service on the whole time when I was growing up, this is London. So that engendered in me a big interest in world affairs. I like to say that when I read the newspapers in those days, where we still read the paper copy, I would start from the back, sports pages, of course, you start there. And then I would immediately go to the middle, the foreign news, world news, and only after that would I look at the front. So I always had this interest in international affairs. And when I saw that there was an area of law had actually dealt with international affairs, I thought, yes, that's the bit that I'm. That I'm interested in.

[Unknown]

When you said to yourself, that's the bit I'm interested in, how did you view it? Did you see it as a mechanism to right terrible wrongs or as a kind of neutral international arbitration? Because people have different views about what international law is for and whether it's. Frankly, nowadays people suggest it's not really there for anything.

[Dapo Akande]

Yeah, yeah. You know, the interesting thing is I think my views then are probably still my views now in terms of why I thought it was an area that I really wanted to go into. It was at the time I looked at it, and I still do actually, as a framework within which states, and by extension people in states could sort of live together on the basis of a framework that provides predictability, stability and justice. So it's a combination of the things that you said. It's sort of a way in which we can move away a bit from the chaos that might ensue if we don't have rules that might provide that predictability and stability, but also a way in which actually you provide rules that provide for justice. That's part of what a legal framework is about. So that was part of the attraction at the time and still is, frankly.

[Unknown]

Over the course of your career, then, this has been your work. You've advised the un, you've advised the International Committee of the Red Cross. Have you got cases that, that really stand out? You could tell our listeners, look, this is somewhere where this body of law of international really made a difference.

[Dapo Akande]

So I can talk about, you know, some things which maybe I've been involved in sometimes at a very peripheral level, but also maybe a little bit more. More deeply. So when I moved to, to the UK and I, I was studying as a student, the very first job that I did after I graduated was I worked as an assistant to someone who actually then became the first woman judge at the International Court of Justice and the first woman president of the icj. And she was, as it happens, actually counsel for Nigeria in a case before the International Court of Justice. It was a case between Nigeria and Cameroon.

[Unknown]

The Bakasi Peninsula sparked conflict between Nigeria and Cameroon due to rich, rich oil reserves over the past decade. The cry of the displaced Bakasse people is that they've been living like refugees.

[Dapo Akande]

In their own country, which dealt with a dispute concerning the entire land boundary between Nigeria and Cameroon. It's a very long boundary, a dispute around the Bakasi Peninsula and then a maritime dispute as well, which for those countries was really a big deal. You know, these are two countries that had had this dispute, had actually existed for a very long time. And she asked me to be her assistant on that case. And I also worked. This is on the. On the Nigerian side. It led to a judgment eventually by the International Court of Justice settling this boundary dispute between Nigeria and Cameroon.

[Unknown]

The International Court of Justice ruled in Cameroon's favor. In 2002, Nigeria agreed to cede the territory in a phased process, avoiding war.

[Dapo Akande]

Nigeria, which had then in fact been in administration of the Bakasi Peninsula, the court found that actually that peninsula belonged to Cameroon. This had been a source of great tension between those two states. But believe it or not, actually the two countries agreed to abide by the judgment. There was UN mediation, UN Demarcation of the boundary, the relevant territories were transferred by one state to the other. And this source of real tension, which had occasionally actually led to flashpoint and uses of force between those two countries, was resolved on the basis of this judgment of the International Court of Justice. I think that's an amazing achievement, and it's made all the more amazing by the fact that actually we don't know that much about it. If there'd been a war, we would know all about it.

[Unknown]

And with hindsight, we might have said, oh, if only they could have sat down, you know, talked to some lawyers like yourself, and resolved this peacefully and saved a lot of lives.

[Dapo Akande]

Exactly, exactly. And so sometimes, actually, the work is, you know, something that's not necessarily seen. It's the disputes that are avoided, the disputes that are. That are resolved. You know, so those are things which are, you know, which are. It's part of what international law does. It's part of this thing of providing a framework within which states and people can resolve their disputes on the basis of this kind of. This kind of framework. Does it always work? Not always, but when it works, do we always see that it works? Not always, but actually a lot of the time it does, in fact. It does, in fact, work.

[Unknown]

Are you more interested in the ICJ framework, which discusses cases between countries, than, say, the International Criminal Court, which looks at individuals?

[Dapo Akande]

So, you know, for myself as an international lawyer, I like to describe myself as a generalist international lawyer, which means working across different areas of international law. And as it happens, actually, I've done work on the icj, as you say, dispute between states. But I've also done work on the International Criminal Court and other aspects of international criminal law. I've done work on issues to do with human rights. At one point, I was an advisor to the African Union on a question which has now, in fact come back to the icc, about prosecutions of heads of states at a time when African states were very exercised about this issue. And I was involved in providing some advice on how those issues might be dealt with at that time when I.

[Unknown]

Was starting my career. But it's something that stands out in my mind still. I met a young woman from Bosnia who was a refugee in Switzerland, Very, very smart. Been accepted to the best high school academic high school here. And she wanted to be a lawyer so she could go and work at the Hague because of what she. And particularly what she had witnessed her parents go through in Bosnia. How do you see that? Do you think that's a good motivation? I'm just thinking the icc. Do you see the importance of people being able to see they have an avenue for justice, for accountability?

[Dapo Akande]

Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's an innate desire, actually, that many. That human beings just have a desire for justice. And I think that serves a number of purposes, or prosecutions for international crimes serve a number of purposes. So it fulfills that desire for justice. There's some evidence that, at least in some cases, it provides some degree of deterrence, maybe not enough, but at least in some cases, it provides a record of things that have happened. And very often the victims want to have that acknowledged and they want to have that record. And I think all of these things are important. So I'm a strong supporter of international criminal justice.

[Unknown]

As far as America is concerned, the ICC has no jurisdiction, no legitimacy, and no authority.

People have a sense now that international law is increasingly disregarded. And some are saying actually it just gets in the way. People need to do what they need to do. You've heard this phrase, I'm sure, to defend themselves. What would you say to that?

[Dapo Akande]

So the first point about international law being increasingly disregarded, it's clearly the case that in far too many cases, international law is disregarded. I think that is true. There are many instances where the law is not followed, and you only have to turn on the news to see that. But it's interesting, you use the word increasingly disregarded, and there's a point here as to whether the situation is better or worse than what it was in the past. And sometimes there's a sense that it's worse now. I don't know what the actual answer is, but what I do know is that actually international law is increasingly regarded as relevant, and actions are judged more nowadays by reference to international law than was the case before. So that in and of itself actually gives one the sense that it's increasingly disregarded, because we test things by reference to international law today far more than we did in the past. I can tell that even just from my own life. So it's interesting. We started this podcast and I said I was an international lawyer, and I didn't explain what that meant in the past. If I talked to a neighbor and I said, I'm an international lawyer, I'm pretty sure the next question would have been, what is that? What do you do today? It's never asked. What is often asked is people ask me very specific and detailed questions about international law. Everyone knows about international law. Everyone has a view about how it applies to particular cases. And so I think today we have Far more emphasis on whether actions are compliant with international law than we did in the past. That's a good thing. But of course, what it also means is that the cases where there are violations, it's a lot more obvious and everyone knows. But, you know, that doesn't take away from the fact that we have far too many violations than we should have.

[Unknown]

We start in the United States where Donald Trump has denounced the International Criminal Court, accusing it of.

[Dapo Akande]

In an unprecedented move, the Trump administration has sanctioned four judges of the International Criminal Court over what it calls baseless and politicized targeting of America and Israel.

[Unknown]

US Secretary of State, what about what we've been seeing, and I mean, I will have to mention the United States here, that the current administration appears not to be particularly interested in playing within this particular set of rules. And okay, never joined the International Criminal Court, but has now sanctioned its staff and is not particularly happy with the International Court of Justice either. How would you persuade a superpower that actually, you know what, we're not a threat to you, it's worth joining. You may need us sometime.

[Dapo Akande]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think very often the weak see the necessity for law far quicker than the strong. That's not surprising. But on your question of how would you persuade a superpower that you may need international law, one of the most interesting things that I have done in the last couple of years was I was invited to brief the Security Council, the United Nations Security Council a couple of years ago. It was June 2022 and the topic that the Security Council was discussing was strengthening accountability for violations of international law. That was the topic. And I was one of the briefers, together with the then President of the International Court of Justice and the UN Human Rights Commissioner, all of us talking about strengthening accountability for violations of international law. This was a few months after the full scale invasion by Russia of Ukraine. So that was really what a lot of the states were talking about. What I found most interesting actually about that meeting was that in the meeting the Russian ambassador, and this is all on the public record, spent quite a bit of time actually talking about the disregard by other states, the US and the uk. He picked out in particular their disregard for decisions of international courts. So he talked about the then sanctioning of the ICC and the UK's disregard of the International Court of Justice opinion on Chagos. And what I found really interesting was that he wasn't talking to those states, he was talking to the other states. He was basically trying to say, look, we're not the Only ones who are accused of not complying with international law. And at that moment, and the reality was the things that he was saying at that point in time were actually true in terms of those specific allegations. And so even as a matter of foreign policy, the idea that states were at least regarded as not complying with decisions of these international courts was used in a way that enabled other states to say, well, this now gives us a reason also not to comply. So just as a matter of self interest, actually the undermining of the system and the failure to comply with decisions, all it does is that it actually just gives an excuse for others in other cases also to not comply in ways which might actually be adverse to the interests of even the big players. That's the point that I'm trying to make. And so sometimes even for the strong and even sometimes for the big states, it's important that they be seen to be complying because otherwise they will find it very difficult to get the support of others when they want to say that these other states are not complying.

[Unknown]

Well, that's absolutely right. I mean we see that here in Geneva all the time. The argument about double standards and it has huge resonance particularly within the UN Human Rights Council. I think particularly now with the conflict in the Middle East.

This is Rafah tents among rubble the site that Israel's defense is Minister proposed to place a so called humanitarian city Washington D.C. last night.

[Dapo Akande]

Guess who's coming to dinner. Man wanted for war crimes proposes war.

[Unknown]

Ally for Nobel Peace Prize.

[Dapo Akande]

It's nominating you for the peace prize.

[Unknown]

Israel is being accused of committing genocide in the UN's top court. This case is being tried in the International Court of Justice, which is the UN's main judicial body.

People are beginning to despair that any plea for respect for international law has. Has resonance anymore.

[Dapo Akande]

Yeah, absolutely. And this is exactly the point. It's this point about double standards, right? So the idea that it is possible to pick and choose to say, well, on some occasions we want some countries to respect international law, but on other occasions either we're not going to respect or we're willing to condone viol of international law. Those stances actually have consequences. And so even when it is in a particular case, it might be suggested that, well, it's not in our interest in this particular case to comply with those rules. The failure to comply has consequences in other cases as well. And I think this is what we're seeing in the examples that you've given in other examples. That's what we're seeing and most countries will, at some point or another, want to make the argument that other states need to abide by international law. And that argument will only work if they themselves are willing to abide by it and are willing to make a stand for international law in cases when it's being violated.

[Unknown]

You probably know Mariana Spoliaric, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. I talked to her two or three weeks ago, and she said this also to the. To the UN Security Council. A point she makes when people say international is getting in the way of things. She says, you will save all sorts of things, money, reconstruction money. Your peace will be more sustainable. Yes, fight your war, but stay within the rules.

[Dapo Akande]

Well, I would absolutely support that. And that's particularly the case with regard to the law of armed conflict. You know, it seems, or almost paradoxical to think that wars have rules and that there is law in war, but there's not just a moral case, actually, for having rules in war, but there's also the case that, you know, as she said, that it actually is going to make the peace more sustainable. And what we see, and you see this all across the world now, it actually just also resonates with this sort of human consciousness. And I think this is the point that I make about international law being seen as much more relevant now. One of the things that international law actually does is it taps into that consciousness, and it's now a sort of expression of it as well. And I think it's something that humanity as a whole is calling for increasingly today.

[Unknown]

And you are a candidate to be a judge on the International Court of Justice. It's a pretty big job. Obviously, you're eminently experienced for it. We know this. But why do you want this to be your next step?

[Dapo Akande]

It's interesting. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's actually, for me, the same motivation that I had when I decided that I wanted to be an international lawyer in the first place. It's first of all helping to develop and helping to sustain that framework of rules that provide for predictability, stability and justice. So one of the things that the court does is that, of course, it clarifies the rules of international law, and that's important. And then the second thing is that task of peaceful settlement of disputes. That's what the court is there for. It's there for states to be able to settle their disputes peacefully. And that's hugely important. And it would really be an honor to be able to contribute to that.

[Imogen Folks]

And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to international lawyer Dapo Akande for his time and that fascinating interview. Join us again in two weeks where we'll be hearing from Rachel Cummings of Save the Children direct from her posting in Gaza.

[Unknown]

We are driven by humanity to others and alleviating the suffering of children, wherever that is, to alleviate that suffering and you know, to give children hope because they are living through their worst lives. They're living through the most desperate of times and of course they are innocent throughout it. They are children who have the right to a childhood.

[Imogen Folks]

That episode will be out on August 5th. Don't miss it. And a reminder, our profiles from last summer are all still available. Hear from Olaf Valverde about his job trying to find treatments for neglected diseases or Antonia Mulvey about her legal work seeking justice for the most vulnerable in conflict affected regions. You can hear those and more wherever you get your podcasts. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss Info production. You can subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with Their Families or why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN in Geneva for Justice. I'm Imogen folks. Thanks again for listening. Hello, this is Imogen folks from Swiss Info's Inside Geneva podcast. This summer, like last year, we're bringing you a fascinating series of summer profiles, starting with doctor, aid worker and now journalist Tamam Aloudat.

[Unknown]

Can we afford to only put roofs on over people's heads and do nothing about the system? If your house was bombed for the first time, I understand if it was bombed for the 17th time and instead of a house you have a tarp and instead of food you have animal feed or grass to eat.

[Imogen Folks]

Then later this month we'll hear from international lawyer and candidate to be judge on the International Court of Justice, Dapa Wakande.

[Dapo Akande]

It's clearly the case that in in far too many cases international law is disregarded and you only have to turn on the news to see that. What I do know is that actually international law is increasingly regarded as relevant.

[Imogen Folks]

From now till September. We've got all sorts of amazing people to talk to from an aid worker in Gaza right now to someone who started his career in Gaza 40 years ago. Join us on Inside Geneva wherever you get your podcasts.