Inside Geneva’s Summer Profiles: Philippe Stoll

Summary

Podcast Summary: Inside Geneva's Summer Profiles – Philippe Stoll

Podcast: Inside Geneva
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Guest: Philippe Stoll (ICRC Tech Diplomacy Representative)
Date: August 4, 2026
Producer: SWI swissinfo.ch

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Episode Overview

This episode features a summer profile of Philippe Stoll, a veteran humanitarian and current technology and conflict diplomat for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Host Imogen Foulkes delves into the urgent challenges that international humanitarian law faces today, especially around upholding the Geneva Conventions amid evolving warfare—including the rise of cyber attacks. The conversation also explores the iconic significance of the Red Cross emblem, and the pioneering efforts to develop a digital counterpart designed to protect humanitarian data and systems in cyberspace.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Humanitarian Instinct and Evolution of the Red Cross Emblem

• Philippe Stoll’s Journey:

  • Background in economics, initially considering a traditional career ("could have been a banker or something like that").
  • Inspired by his mother’s Red Cross volunteering:

    "My mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross and I think she influenced me a lot of maybe being human or taking care of humans." (00:23, 04:39)

  • Early thesis on managing cultural differences at the ICRC in 1996 launched his career in humanitarian work (04:39).

• On the Emblem’s Symbolism:

  • The Red Cross emblem remains a widely recognized sign of neutrality, protection, and hope during conflicts:

    "The emblem, it's a symbol of hope, it's a symbol of, okay, there is a human in the midst of war, of awful situation." (02:04, 08:37)

2. Contemporary Challenges: Rising Armed Conflicts and "Dishumanization"

• Noted increasing disregard for the rules of war, with alarming attacks on ambulances and hospitals in places like Gaza and Sudan (00:40–01:10).

• Stoll expresses deep concern about global "dishumanization":

  "The growing dishumanization of people, the fact that human life is not as respected as it used to be, the fact that it seems to be okay to kill people. And this dimension for me is very worrying." (01:10, 07:26)

• He emphasizes the importance of small acts and maintaining a personal, human touch, even amid the impossibility of solving large-scale conflicts:

  "Trying to be nice with them, potentially finding a small solution to a big problem is better than searching for big solutions to a problem that you would never be able to solve." (06:09)

3. Digital Warfare and the Case for a Digital Emblem

• Cyber Threats to Humanitarian Work:

  • Traditional emblems are marked on physical entities (hospitals, ambulances), protecting them under international law. However, as warfare evolves to include cyber attacks, sensitive digital assets (like hospital data) are increasingly vulnerable (03:03, 09:55).

• ICRC’s Digital Emblem Initiative:

  • The digital emblem aims to offer cyber protection to humanitarian sites and systems, marking them as off-limits digitally:

    "Similarly to a hospital where we put a red cross, we put a kind of a symbol, a red cross, a virtual red cross on the server to say to those who want to attack, this is a Red Cross belonging and don't attack it. It doesn't prevent them to do it." (10:21)

  • The emblem operates as a digital certificate recognizable by machines—since modern cyberattacks are often automated:

    "The fact that cyber attacks are more and more done by machine. We are talking about a machine talking to another machine. And this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack." (03:03, 15:10)

• Critical Context:

  • Stoll stresses that, although these protections—both physical and digital—do not guarantee immunity, they shift responsibility onto perpetrators:

    "So the idea is to try to also reverse the responsibility on the attackers and they won't be able to say, ah, I didn't know, no, you have a certificate, you have something." (11:46, 19:49)

• Potential Extensions:

  • The initiative could open doors for similar symbols for other types of protected content, such as the Blue Shield for cultural goods or other vital infrastructure (13:22).

4. Building Trust and Understanding in the Digital Age

• Machine Recognition and Standards:

  • The digital emblem is designed not to be visible to humans but to be recognized by machines, using global standards:

    "It's really something which is invisible to the human eye that the machine recognize it... The idea is that this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack." (15:10)

• Broader Impact and Challenges:

  • The ICRC faces the challenge of ensuring these digital protections are universally adopted and meaningful.
  • Real-life impacts of cyber attacks can be devastating (hospitals, water, power systems)—though threats are often abstract to the public:

    "The distress of people not being capable to get their information online because it was hacked, the fact that some information might put your family or you at risk... these are elements which are less tangible. But it's also one of the work we are trying to do to try to understand that digital risks have real life consequences." (18:15)

5. Diplomacy, Stakeholder Buy-In, and the Role of Tech Companies

• Engaging Tech Giants:

  • For the digital emblem to work, buy-in and standards adoption by major tech companies are essential.
  • Stoll describes a growing interest, but acknowledges uptake will be gradual:

    "There is a super strong interest. Doesn't mean there is a buy in, but at least that's the first step... If I start to speak with the digital emblem, I can speak about what it means to have a neutral organization in the cyberspace..." (21:29)

• ICRC’s Diplomatic Role – New and Old:

  • The ICRC is accustomed to dialoguing with all parties—including states, non-state actors, and now potentially hacker groups—in both physical and cyberspace:

    "At the basis of the work of the ICRC, it's about discussing with everyone and bringing everyone around the table. Maybe not finding the perfect solution, but at least starting this discussion is already key..." (13:22)

• Outreach to “Cyber Warriors” and Non-State Digital Actors:

  • Building trust and opening communication is the same process as in traditional conflict mediation, but with new actors in the digital realm (23:28).

6. The Evolving Mission—Upholding Humanitarian Law Amid Rapid Change

• Stoll sees the digital emblem as a logical, necessary evolution of humanitarian law’s protective measures:

  "Throughout history, war has evolved and the ICRC is pushing IHL to follow... People who are suffering from conflict, they look at us to try to push the boundaries... We want to push the limits for better protection of civilians wherever they are in the physical world, in the cyberspace." (24:22)

  • Admits the law is often only "soft law"—compliance is always a challenge, yet engagement and progress are essential (24:22).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power and fragility of the Red Cross emblem:
  "It's a symbol of hope. When people see that for the first time after a few weeks, an ICRC symbol, a Land Cruiser or National Red Cross staff coming to bring them a letter – this is what matters to me." (08:37)

• On shifting warfare:
  "We're talking about a machine talking to another machine... this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack." (03:03, 15:10)

• On collective responsibility:
  "Let's try to be proactive and build this emblem so the responsibility is not anymore on us... The responsibility is on the attackers. You did it on purpose and you knew that you are putting your feet or your fingers into something that is protected." (19:49)

• On the mission’s complexity:
  “Trying to find a small solution to a big problem is better than searching for big solutions to a problem that you would never be able to solve.” (06:09)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:23 — Stoll’s influences and his journey into humanitarian work
• 01:10, 07:26 — Concerns about global “dishumanization” and the loss of respect for life
• 02:04, 08:37 — Emblem's symbolism and meaning in the field
• 03:03, 15:10 — Emergence and rationale for the digital emblem
• 10:21 — How digital warfare endangers humanitarian protection
• 13:22 — Expanding digital protection to other humanitarian domains
• 18:15 — Real-life consequences of cyber attacks on civilians
• 21:29 — Getting tech industry and other new actors on board
• 24:22 — Evolving the mission: digital emblem as the next step for international humanitarian law

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Tone and Language

Throughout, the tone is reflective, passionate, and at times urgent—balancing realism about the scale of challenges with hope and commitment to humanitarian values. Stoll is humble about individual impact, but steadfast in advocating for progress, dialogue, and adaptation.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced and forward-looking discussion on how international humanitarian law is adapting to digital threats. Philippe Stoll’s experiences frame both the emotional resonance of the Red Cross emblem and the ICRC’s efforts to ensure protections move with the times—into the increasingly complex and dangerous world of cyber conflict.

For listeners intrigued by the future of humanitarian protections and the evolution of war and law, this conversation offers deep insight and some cautious optimism for the future.

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Transcript

[Imogen Folks]

Swissinfo podcasts. This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen folks and this is a production from swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.

[Philippe Stoll]

In today's program I studied economics and I think I could have been a banker or something like that. Good Swiss indeed. But my mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross and I think she influenced me a lot of maybe being human or taking care of humans.

[Narrator]

There are currently around 130 armed conflicts happening across the world. And as global tensions rise, we are witnessing a disregard for the rules of war agreed upon by nations to protect humanity during war.

[Interviewer]

Four ambulance workers and two patients have been killed in Gaza following an air strike Tier Sudan. Now 70 people have been killed in a drone attack on one of the last functioning hospitals in Al Fasher in the Darfur region.

[Philippe Stoll]

The growing dishumanization of people, the fact that human life is not as respected as it used to be, the fact that it seems to be okay to kill people. And this dimension for me is very worrying.

[Imogen Folks]

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen folks and it's time for summer profiles. We've got an interesting one for you today because we're going to talk to an aid worker currently tasked with keeping the Geneva conventions relevant in 21st century warfare. But we're also in a way going to profile one of the most recognizable iconic symbols in the world. The Red Cross emblem itself.

[Narrator]

Emblems of humanity are symbols of protection under international humanitarian law Globally, they signify protection and life saving work during armed conflicts.

[Philippe Stoll]

The emblem, it's a symbol of hope, it's a symbol of, okay, there is a human in the midst of war, of awful situation. There are people who are looking at this emblem because they know maybe their family will be found or maybe they will get medical treatment.

[Narrator]

The Red Cross, red crescent and red crystal are symbols of protection that international law gives to the wounded and sick and those caring for them in armed conflict.

[Imogen Folks]

The Red Cross and the red crescent and red crystal are known to us all. Seeing them tells armies, this is a hospital, this is an ambulance. They're protected under international law and must not be attacked. But that's a physical sign attached to a building or vehicle. What happens when it's not a physical entity so but a computer system containing sensitive data or software running life saving hospital equipment that's being attacked.

[Philippe Stoll]

The fact that cyber attacks are more and more done by machine. We are talking about a machine talking to another machine. And this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack.

[Imogen Folks]

And what are the consequences?

[Philippe Stoll]

The distrust of people not being capable to get their information online because it was hacked, the fact that some information might put your family or you at risk because you belong to a tribe or clan that is under attack.

[Imogen Folks]

Well, all that and more is what we're going to explore in this episode. Because the International Committee, the Red Cross, the guardian of the Geneva Conventions, is developing a digital emblem. And in Geneva this month, it gathered together aid workers, military representatives, diplomats and and big tech to discuss progress. I caught up with Red Cross tecplomacy representative Philippe Stoll. He's an expert in technology and conflict.

[Philippe Stoll]

Hi, my name is Philipp Stoll and I'm being working in the field of humanity and action, digital technologies, even a bit of art for the last 30 years. I'm Swiss. I grew up in the outskirts of Geneva in Nio, but I've studied in Geneva and I was always surrounded by this international environment, which I was always fascinated about.

[Interviewer]

So you wanted to work in a humanitarian organization?

[Philippe Stoll]

Yes, and there was a funny story. I studied economics and I think I could have been a banker or something like that.

[Interviewer]

But good Swiss.

[Philippe Stoll]

Good Swiss, indeed. But my mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross and I think she influenced me a lot of maybe being human or taking care of humans. And that's why during my studies I could do my master's thesis on the ICRC. This was in 1896, so was trying to understand in a course on human resources, the question of management of cultural differences in an ICRC office. And this is how it all started.

[Interviewer]

And then you moved to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Tell me how that was. Was the reality of working for them how you imagined?

[Philippe Stoll]

I don't think I had a lot of imagination and therefore it was easy to face the reality because it's something where I don't think you can imagine what it is. It's so complex. Each context is different, each day is different. One day you visit a prisoner, the following day you help a family to get reunited with the lost children. The next day you will spend your day in an office for hours writing a report which is not super sexy. Or the following day you distribute food. So the idea of having something which is never the same day is something interesting. And it's also something where you are diving really deep into societies, into cultures that you don't know. And this is fascinating.

[Interviewer]

Tell me then about your postings, where you went. What stands out for you? Maybe good and bad.

[Philippe Stoll]

I don't know. I forgot the bad part. Most probably. But I think that the one thing that I really care and I really nurture as something that was what I wanted to be and what I hope I am, is this human dimension. There are many things you can try to solve which are super complex that go beyond you, but being nice with others is what comes back to you. So I've been in different positions, different places, such as the north of the West Bank, Sierra Leone, India, I did some short missions in Afghanistan, in Ukraine, in Myanmar, in the Philippines, etc. And it's about trying to bring the hope of humanity. Sounds very strange. Sometimes it's very small. But trying to understand the people, trying to be nice with them, potentially finding a small solution to a big problem is better than searching for big solutions to a problem that you would never be able to solve.

[Interviewer]

Well, I mean, some of these places you talk about the west bank, of course you can't solve it. I'm just wondering, working there, when you see that part of the world now, does that make you feel a bit. What's this all for?

[Philippe Stoll]

There is one thing I'm concerned, not only by this region, but in general, around the world, is this question of the growing dishumanization of people. The fact that human life is not as respected as it used to be, the fact that it seems to be okay to kill people. And this dimension for me is very worrying. The discourse of powerful people speaking about a country, speaking about a population, speaking about a type of population is something that I'm worrying because this gives example to the others who are maybe less in power, but they still have power. And this dimension is very worrying. The other part is also I'm so much aware of what I can bring in general. So it's also, I'm not expecting to bring world peace. I'm who I am and I try to do what I can do the best way I can. And that's what will for me, make a small difference.

[Interviewer]

We're here today to actually talk about the emblem. Let's talk about the original one, the one that's on bibs that you wear, they're on your vehicles, they're on hospitals. How do you feel the physical traditional emblem is respected these days?

[Philippe Stoll]

I think there is still beyond the fact that it protects people. And I think right now, in a world where the notion of trust is put in question, and the fact that people don't always believe or think the way you imagine they were thinking, it's becoming maybe something where we have to be much more careful. I also like the emblem for what it stands for. It's a symbol of hope. It's a symbol of there is a human in the midst of war, of awful situation. There are people who are looking at this emblem because they know maybe their family will be found or maybe they will get medical treatment. And I look at it more from that perspective that for myself we know that the question of geopolitical balance, violence, etc. Is increasing the fragility of such a symbol. But I still want to look at it from the other perspective, from a people who sees for the first time after a few weeks an ICR symbol, Land Cruiser or National Red Cross staff coming to bring them a letter. So this is what matters to me.

[Interviewer]

I'm just going to explain to our listeners where we are. We are at cern, Geneva's high tech scientific exploratory place. And you've been here presenting a new kind of emblem, which is a digital emblem. Of course we have seen new forms of warfare, particularly since 2022. But maybe explain first what is a digital emblem and then why do we need it.

[Philippe Stoll]

I will start with the why we need it, if you may allow me. One thing that matters is to try, and I think the IECRC has been doing it for 160 years, is to adapt to the evolution of warfare, to adapt to the needs of people. 100 years ago the psychosocial support was not existing. Now it is there, it's part of the work we do. So the same way we were looking at how warfare was evolving, more and more digital technologies being bring into the discussions or into the warfare. And then you had also cyber attacks. This is not new. Some people might remember that there was already cyber attacks in the 90s, in the 2000s, etc, so we knew that warfare will evolve in that direction. And instead of just looking at things, we were wondering how we could find a solution to mark servers, websites, data that belong to us. So that similarly to a hospital where we put a red cross, we put a kind of a symbol, a red cross, a virtual red cross on the server to say to those who want to attack, this is a red cross belonging and don't attack it, it doesn't prevent them to do it.

[Interviewer]

Well, neither does the physical emblem now.

[Philippe Stoll]

Exactly. You know, you can have an emblem on an ambulance, you can shoot at it. So the idea is to try to also reverse the responsibility on the attackers and they want be able to say, ah, I didn't know, no, you have a certificate, you have something. So from a technical perspective, those who will conduct cyber attack will understand that they are putting their fingers into something which belongs to the Red Cross. And I think this is something important because we know that the physical protection, having food, having shelter, having medical assistance is important, but having a cyber protection is also as important as that. I would hate that if I give my data to an organization to get food, that this data appears somewhere else, used by someone who has maybe less good intention than the Red Cross. So the whole story is about that. It's not yet finalized, but it's an interesting solution because it starts a debate.

[Interviewer]

Let's take that one step further. You're talking about stuff that's Red Cross property. This emblem, if I understand it right, can be used on things which are protected under international law. The software that keeps a hospital's respirators running, the software that keeps keeps a water pumping station going. It can be used on things like

[Philippe Stoll]

that if it is within the work or belonging to the Red Cross Red Crescent movement, or if it's medical units of armies, those who are allowed to use today the physical emblem. Now what is interesting is that we are opening a door to order potentially protective emblem. We have heard today about the blue shield, which is also protection of cultural goods. Why not having something for critical infrastructure, so nuclear power plants, dams, etc. But at least we are trying to push boundaries, we are trying to bring people around the table. And for me it's also something quite refreshing, if I can use this word, to see that we have the tech sector, we have legislation, regulators, we have standard authorities, we have states, but we have also potentially hackers, hacker group with whom we have to discuss. And at the basis of the work of the icrc, it's about discussing with everyone and bringing everyone around the table. Maybe not finding the perfect solution, but at least starting this discussion is already key so that we move towards better protection in the cyberspace.

[Interviewer]

For the non geeks among our audience. Let me just ask you what might seem a silly question to you, but how is this digital emblem going to be different from say, one of these constantly updated maps that the military has with GPS markings that say that's a hospital, that's a water desalination plant, that's a school. How is the digital emblem different?

[Philippe Stoll]

It's not so different. The idea is to have a system which is quite decentralized, which is agile enough that if there is a change, let's say today, if we have a building which is our office and we move the office, we remove the Red Cross. So the same way, if we have a Server we have something that is belonging to, to the movement and we decide to move away because of whatever reasons we need to have this capacity to change things. The idea is really something which is invisible to the human eye that the machine recognize it. There is still an operator behind to say, okay, I'm saying that this computer or this server belongs to us. So there is a human interaction. But the fact that cyber attacks are more and more, I won't call it automatized, but somehow done by machine. We are talking about a machine talking to another machine. And this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack. And this is a little bit why we want to go to standards.

[Interviewer]

So let me see if I explain this right. You're basically talking about hack and attack, I think. And this could be done at the moment by a human hacking into a system. Increasingly, it could be done by a machine hacking into a system. The idea is that either the human or machine gets far enough into this system, then sees the emblem. I mean, this person just be sitting at home in their darkened room on their laptop, they see this emblem that ah, this is actually a protected system. Is that how it will work?

[Philippe Stoll]

Exactly, it's exactly that. I think the human doing only one attack per hour or something like that. It's the past. It's in movies in the 80s, this has happened. Now it's at the. It's huge quantities and you generate a program that do the thing for you. So that's also why we are looking at a machine that can recognize. And this is why having the different interlocutors or sectors working together, which will allow to have machines, to have the standards, to have something that is recognized today all around the world. We know that the traffic light which is red, you stop. Why that? Because you have learned it and you own it.

[Interviewer]

Well, you might get killed if you don't.

[Philippe Stoll]

Yeah, or you might kill someone, by the way. So this is the same. So what? Right now is a bit abstract, but we are getting used to it. We know that this is a sign. The computers themselves, we know that this is a sign. And maybe one day these attacks will be avoided because the system, the standard will be said, this is a protected server, this is a protected data.

[Imogen Folks]

And we shouldn't underestimate the damage to

[Interviewer]

real human life that a cyber attack on a health system or a water or a power system could do.

[Philippe Stoll]

This is correct. And this is a difficult part. Very often when we speak about an earthquake, torture, hunger bombing, even if you haven't lived in a context of a crisis or conflict, you understand it. There is a physical dimension. If I speak about cyber attack, it's so abstract that sometimes we have issues to understand the harm but the distress of people not being capable to get their information online because it was hacked. The fact that some information might put your family or you at risk because you belong to a tribe or clan that is under attack, the fact that your private information about your health is out, these are, these elements which are less tangible. But it's also one of the work we are trying to do to try to understand that digital risks have real life consequences. And if we don't go there, the regulation will be very difficult.

[Interviewer]

Just one more slightly geeky question, and this is very much, I find, like typical of the International Committee of the Red Cross. You're going to set up this emblem. Somebody who's a cyber warrior is looking for targets. Oh, I could disable this. I'm in here. Seize the emblem. Yeah, well, maybe I won't. The institution being targeted doesn't get to know they've been watched and potentially targeted. Why not? You've got this kind of anonymity going on.

[Philippe Stoll]

We start from the principle that we are targets. The ICRC suffered from a cyber attack in 2022. It's not a question of if, it's more a question of when. So we anticipate that we know that the ICRC has access to information that are highly interesting for state, non state armed groups. It's working in context that there is little information. So this is something we are aware, but this was already the past century where we had pouches, diplomatic immunities the same, our physical archive in Geneva. They are under a protected international agreement that no one is allowed to get on that, to have access to that. So the same, we know that the information we have are interesting. Let's try to be proactive and build this emblem so the responsibility is not anymore on us. No one will say, are you? You didn't do your work correctly. The responsibility is on the attackers. You did it on purpose and you knew that you are putting your feet or your fingers into something that is protected.

[Interviewer]

How much buy in do you have from big tech? I mean, Microsoft were here at this meeting. I didn't see other ones. They are hugely, hugely powerful. Powerful. Some of them have, how shall I put this? Dual use. They do civilian it, they do weapons. I mean, how, really, how much buy in? Because you need them. You need it to be standard.

[Philippe Stoll]

Yes, correct. But again, how do you convince them? By Talking to them. So we start with 1, 2, 3. We have other companies who are working with us. They are super interested. They were not present today. It's also a physical event, so it means also bringing some people. It might be more complicated, but one thing that I've noticed compared to the work I've been doing around the world is that there is a super strong interest. Doesn't mean there is a buy in, but at least that's the first step when I'm going to tech events where there is no diplomacy, just tech. When I start to speak about the digital emblem, I see a 2 second neural connection in the brain of my interlocutor. Just that it's an opportunity to speak about other things. If I come and I say, ah, let's speak about war, about neutrality, no one cares. If I start to speak with the digital emblem, I can speak about what it means to have a neutral organization in, in the cyberspace and therefore in the physical one. So it's a long work. I'm not shying away from the fact that this won't happen overnight, but again it's about speaking about it. It's engaging with those who don't want to listen to the same way we did it in the field. Speaking with states, non state armed groups doesn't mean they will follow the rules, but at least they know.

[Interviewer]

Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Because you have traditionally it is your role to speak to those who fight, whether it's a state army or whether it's a non state actor. Now you, I have seen ICRC delegates do this all over the world. They talk about what the Geneva Conventions are. These armies or non state armed groups are going to have their cyber warriors. Now all the countries, they have it. What's your contact with them?

[Philippe Stoll]

We go to some events where some of them are present. And I can tell you it's not so different from the classic way of working if you are in a country where you have an on set armed group. But you have to start somewhere and you start to discuss and the moment you have built enough trust, which takes sometimes time, many months, many years, you have to go through proxies, etc. It's the same in the cyberspace. So we have to start somewhere. And the fact that we are out and visible with the digital emblem is already a good starting point for discussion.

[Interviewer]

You've been working really hard on this. You see this as the logical next step for using the emblem and its traditional status to uphold the Geneva Conventions, uphold international humanitarian law.

[Philippe Stoll]

Yes. I think throughout history, war has evolved and the ICRC is pushing IHL to follow. There is one occurrence when a weapon was prohibited even before it was used. This is blinding lasers in the 80s or 70s. But we have a responsibility. People who are suffering from conflict, they look at us to try to push the boundaries. We try our best. It's not always successful, but we want to push the limits for better protection of civilians wherever they are in the physical world, in the cyberspace. And this dimension is making our work fascinating, complex, but also sometimes daunting because we know that it's just a soft law. What happens if you don't follow the rules? That's another question that not the ICRC question. Our mandate is to try to push these limits. We try our best. And I think today's event is a demonstration that we can go a little bit further than what people think in trying to anticipate some of the risk of tomorrow.

[Imogen Folks]

And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Philippe Stoll and the ICRC for their time. We hope you found this episode interesting. Do write to us with your comments@inside genevaissinfo Ch. Coming up in the next few weeks on our summer profiles, we'll be talking to UN women about the consequences of cuts in aid funding on women and girls. And we'll hear from a pair of human rights defenders how to keep support for human rights alive when some of the most powerful nations on earth are pushing back. All that and more this summer on Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen. Folks, thanks again for listening. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can email us on Inside GenevaissInfo Ch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with their Families or why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen, folks, thanks again for listening.