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- [00:00]
Imogen Folks
Are you Swiss and planning to move abroad? Or maybe you've already taken the leap? Swiss Info has a new podcast just for you. It's coming out on November 25th. It's called Ade Merci Schweez, or maybe that should be Adieu Merci la Suisse. It's available in Swiss, German and French. It covers everything you need to know about setting up your new life abroad. We speak to Swiss around the world who've already made the move and we ask experts to share their experiences. You'll find Addamercy Schweetz wherever you get your podcasts or in our SW app. This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen folks, and this is a production from swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland. In today's program, the top story of.
- [01:04]
Dorian Burkhalter
2025 has been cuts in the humanitarian aid sector. We knew with Donald Trump coming back to the White House, most likely there would be important cuts, but we just didn't expect, I think, the scale of the cuts that happened and also just how brutal they were.
- [01:21]
Emma Farge
I wanted to speak about Gaza, which has been one of the main things that I've been writing about for the past two years. It has been, in the words of so many humanitari, the most horrific humanitarian crisis they've seen in their careers.
- [01:34]
Imogen Folks
My story of 2025, climate change because I got called out in May to cover the village of Blatten, which had been completely wiped off the map by a combination of a weak glacier and a weak mountainside.
- [01:52]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
We ought to bring in Ukraine. We did have Ukrainian peace talks here in Geneva quite recently. All the talk of peace had to some extent eclipsed the humanitarian toll of this conflict. The large numbers of Ukrainians that had been hunted down by, you know, these short range drones.
- [02:11]
Imogen Folks
I want to talk about the subject of migration because that's one unifying factor I think I know is going to be on the agenda in 2020. Hello and welcome to Inside Geneva. And as we always do at this time of year, I've got my colleagues around the table to talk about things that really resonated with us, maybe really moved us in 2025 that we also think probably have relevance for 2026. We hope it's not going to be too depressing a program. And to join me, I've got here Dorian Burkhalter from swissinfo, the company that producers Inside Geneva. Of course, I have Emma Farge of Reuters and Nick Cumming, Bruce, contributor to New York Times. Just one thing before we actually get going. Our colleagues at Foreign Policy have a new podcast series. Here's a short burst of what that's all about. Hello, I'm Femi. Okay. And I'm the new host of the Negotiators, the show that draws back the curtain on some of the most compelling negotiations around the world. This season, we're taking you scuba diving in the Red Sea, walking the grounds of a luxury resort in Uganda, and even aboard an aging oil tanker floating off the coast of Yemen.
- [03:36]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
We were constantly monitored by drones overhead divers under the vessel. So it was not exactly a high trust operation.
- [03:43]
Imogen Folks
That's the negotiators available now. We wherever you get your podcasts, our colleagues at Foreign Policy there with a series, the Negotiators, which I'm sure listeners to Inside Geneva will enjoy as well. Okay, Dorian, we said we were going to talk about stories that resonated with us. What's yours?
- [04:03]
Dorian Burkhalter
So for me, I think the top story of 2025 has been cuts in the humanitarian aid sector.
- [04:11]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Late today, the U.S. state Department suspended all foreign assistance around the world for at least three, three months. Donald Trump suspended American foreign aid on.
- [04:19]
Dorian Burkhalter
Day one of his presidency.
- [04:21]
Imogen Folks
The United nations aid agency is saying that there could be 2,000 new cases of HIV due to the USAID cuts.
- [04:30]
Dorian Burkhalter
We knew with Donald Trump coming back to the White House, most likely there would be important cuts because the US was funding about 40% of the humanitarian sector. But we just didn't expect, I think, the scale of the cuts that happened and also just how brutal they were. And now we're at the end of the year, and it turns out basically two thirds of what the US Used to give to the UN has disappeared. And it's also, I think, important to point out that it's not just the US it's also European countries.
- [05:08]
Imogen Folks
Great Britain cut in half, the uk.
- [05:11]
Dorian Burkhalter
Germany, Norway, France, a lot of the traditional donors that basically have also cut their spending for humanitarian aid. And of course, throughout the year, we've heard about the impact this has on the ground, which at the end of the day is the terrible thing about those cuts. And just recently, we heard about Afghanistan. As winter approaches, they were saying they're only able to reach about 1 million.
- [05:37]
Emma Farge
People out of 6 million.
- [05:40]
Imogen Folks
They're hoping to, who are, I mean, facing severe hunger. Phase four, I think. Ipc.
- [05:46]
Dorian Burkhalter
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, they were talking about the choices they have to make. And it's not really. They're not prioritizing between people that are severely hungry versus a little less. But it's really, among people severely hungry. I mean, you're just getting to the ones you can reach.
- [06:03]
Imogen Folks
Did we, though, expect the severity? I mean, I know roundabout spring. I was talking to the UN Population Fund and UN Women, and they gave me graphic accounts of what they were having to cut in Afghanistan, mother and baby clinics. And I think that was when it started to dawn on me this is going to be much, much worse than actually we had even anticipated when we saw Elon Musk taking his chainsaw to usaid. What about you, Emma?
- [06:34]
Emma Farge
It's certainly been awful, but the people that I've been speaking to in the sector still see the worst yet to come. The signs are that childhood mortality will be up again for the first time this century. That was a gates foundation prediction. 200,000 more deaths this year. So we're starting to see the worst. And I think that we'll have more to report on that in the year to come. For sure. There'll be more fallout, and I think there will be beyond suffering, which is obviously a story that we need to tell. It's also going to be a broader fallout that could have consequences for migration, for security. World Food Program was talking about how they couldn't get enough food aid for people in Nigeria, but yet armed groups were coming along and filling the gap and recruiting some of the people. So I think there will be some interesting kind of shifts. They could be even security. There could be security implications going forward of some of those cuts. So I think it's just the beginning.
- [07:38]
Imogen Folks
Nick, what about you? I fear that, I must say, absolutely.
- [07:41]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
And I think one of the. At a time when there's a lot of pressure on the UN to be more efficient and streamlined, I mean, the hard fact is that budgets are still tanking and they have no means of predicting what resources they're going to have to deal with, which kind of really cripples their abilities to plan and deliver, you know, in the most efficient way. So, yeah, the outlook is extremely bleak.
- [08:06]
Imogen Folks
And the kind of frustrating thing is, like, we do see, we've been seeing this for several years, that the rich section of the planet is getting richer, a very small fraction of people, and the middling, which I suppose we might count ourselves as well, we still have jobs. We're being persuaded to think that the poorest are somehow our enemy. And this is translating into the kind of funding cuts that governments are getting away with because they are playing this us first, us first, me first card.
- [08:39]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Yeah, it was interesting to hear Filippo Grandi yesterday in almost his last public appearance. The UN refugee chief saying that the cuts were not politically innocent. He said they were designed and intended to weaken us. And the world's humanitarian system is going to pay a price for it.
- [08:57]
Imogen Folks
Yeah, but humanity is going to pay a price for that. If I put my loyal to the humanitarian system hat on, the poorest people on the planet, mostly women and children, are going to pay a price for that.
- [09:09]
Dorian Burkhalter
If I could add something, because, you know, just to understand the scale perhaps of the cuts themselves, I think it might be important to just talk about the figures as well. So basically, in 2025, the UN has raised so far about 13 billion. And so that's the lowest level since 2016, when it was also about $12 billion. Only the difference is that in 2016, 12 billion would cover about half or more of what the UN was hoping to raise. Today, it's only a quarter. So I think, yeah, needs have always increased, basically, and I think that really puts it in perspective.
- [09:48]
Emma Farge
What's interesting though, hearing from donors is that this so called hyper prioritization process, as Tom Fletcher, the UN aid chief, calls it, they don't think it's gone far enough yet. The ones I'm speaking to, they're still talking about UN budgets as fictional. One of them used that term, and it's true. If you look at the amount of funding that's going towards them, it's sometimes 10%, sometimes a quarter funded. So the question is whether they're going to have to scale back their ambitions further in the years ahead.
- [10:22]
Imogen Folks
Well, they always know that their budgets will not be fully funded. It's a rare, you know, lesser spotted Aardvark of a UN budget that gets 100% funding. I think I've seen it once in my 20 years reporting, and I think that was after the Asian tsunami. So they know.
- [10:38]
Emma Farge
But I guess it's the question of institutional reform as well. Right. Because back in May, there was this memo leaked, which Reuters reported on, and there were some really bold ideas about consolidating some of these UN agencies where donors saw overlap and so on. So far we haven't seen that yet. So the question is, will donors keep giving funding to a system that they still see as a little bit flabby, with too many people doing the same thing? Maybe I'm being devil's advocate here, but speaking to donors, they do see the UN is trying to still do too much and not being efficient enough about the way that it spends money.
- [11:18]
Imogen Folks
Yeah, I mean, I can see that, except that I've seen it evolve over the last 20 years, it seems to me more rigorous in not duplicating than it was 20 years ago. They've got their special emergency fund which generally works quite efficiently. And I also, I hate to say this, but I don't have a lot of faith in governments who are elected politicians on short term terms being able to work out what works in long term humanitarian aid, particularly when these are the very same people who've completely failed to broker peace. That's what we need them for, but they're not doing it. Emma, can we come on to your topic?
- [12:00]
Emma Farge
Yes. I wanted to speak about Gaza, which has been one of the main things that I've been writing about for the past two years. Really, I feel like I'm an auxiliary correspondent of the Middle East. Team Hunger and fear Palestinians in Gaza.
- [12:14]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Say going to new food distribution sites comes with the risk of death. Reports from Gaza say at least 26 Palestinians have been killed and many more wounded. After Israeli tank fire hit people near a US funded aid distribution center. Israeli forces have opened fire again on hungry Palestinians desperate for aid.
- [12:41]
Emma Farge
It has been, in the words of so many humanitarians, the most horrific humanitarian crisis they've seen in their careers. So I've devoted a lot of time to reporting on that this year, as has the UN press corps. But two standout stories this year, the mass casualty events that we saw in Gaza when people were just trying to get food, hundreds killed on a daily basis trying to access these food sites that many UN officials said were based on a betrayal of humanitarian principles. That was one story that stood out. And another was the finding of famine in Gaza. I believe the first time that such a finding was declared outside of Africa. From what we're hearing, the situation is still awful. The dramatic headlines and the dramatic violence has dissipated since the October 10th ceasefire, of course. But the conditions in which people are living in are obviously awful. Thousands still being treated for malnutrition. 60 million tons of rubble and no bulldozers. No, yes, it's not.
- [13:59]
Imogen Folks
They're not allowed in.
- [14:01]
Emma Farge
So even just getting by on a daily basis, very difficult. The infrastructure broken, sewage running through the streets during the rainy periods. But then this big question of reconstruction, it's just not even being tackled yet because of the restrictions on getting equipment in. We did an investigation on the unexploded bombs of Gaza and Humanity Inclusion. One of the organizations working on that said it's going to take 30 years just to clear the surface. There are these Mark 842000 pound bombs that are just in the sand underneath people's homes. And that requires a lot of technical equipment that's going to be very sensitive to get into the enclave. So this whole question of what happens after this initial phase of the ceasefire, after the final hostage's body is returned, hasn't even really been broached yet. So we'll definitely be writing about that in 2026. The next phases of the Gaza crisis.
- [15:04]
Imogen Folks
Do we think that the people who got involved to broker this ceasefire even understand the enormity? I mean, I'm thinking of people like, you know, Trump's team, Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner, because they're not talking to the United nations, who at least has some peace building, conflict resolution, sustainable experience behind it.
- [15:31]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, I think it's just very difficult to identify quite what their agenda really is. And here we are, three months after the October 10th ceasefire sort of took effect. We still don't know very much about the board of Peace that is supposed to be leading us into the brave new future. We know nothing about the international security force that is supposed to provide a basis for security in the Strip. We have no idea what Israel's intentions really are in relation to withdrawal from the yellow zone that it controls, which is what, half the territory. And instead we see Israel introducing a new system of INGO registration, which the NGOs are warning will emaciate an already struggling system of humanitarian delivery. Although the amount of food and other supplies going into the Gaza Strip has obviously increased significantly since October 10, most of it is coming from commercial suppliers. So this can't be afforded by people who have spent two years under heavy bombardment and have no money and no resources.
- [16:39]
Imogen Folks
I know. And the aid agencies are telling us every week here in Geneva that the stuff they would like to get in is getting in incredibly slowly. And what we see is the Palestinians in Gaza, the bombs aren't falling as often, but I mean, it's freezing cold. I mean, I saw these pictures of these tents and the howling wind. I mean, how are you supposed to live like that?
- [17:00]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
And I think, you know, one story that's been slightly eclipsed by the enormity of the other abuses that have been going on is the medevac story where they'd been playing fast and loose with the lives of people who needed medical treatment. And just extraordinary obstruction put in the way of getting children with absolutely oppressive, appalling life threatening injuries, getting approvals that allowed them to go out for medical treatment overseas. And we're not really very much better now in terms of the numbers going out for medical evacuations than we were a year ago. So it's really a shocking story. And numerous lives, numerous children have died waiting for approvals that could have been given instantly.
- [17:46]
Imogen Folks
And that is definitely a story that's not going away. Should we move to the third, which will be mine? My story of 2025 was primarily Switzerland based because I cover the country as well, but it relates to international Geneva because it's climate change.
- [18:07]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
A dramatic demonstration of nature's power and a potential warning of the consequences of climate change.
- [18:14]
Imogen Folks
A picturesque Swiss town was buried after part of a GLAC broke off and came sliding down a mountain in the Alps.
- [18:21]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
In the past half hour, leaders at the COP30 climate summit in Brazil have agreed on a deal that ends the summit, but fails to mention fossil fuels. Climate change, because if it goes higher.
- [18:32]
Imogen Folks
Or lower, whatever the hell happens, is climate change. It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion, because I got called out in May to cover the village of which had been completely eradicated, just wiped off the map by a combination of a weak glacier and a weak mountainside descending. Now, this being Switzerland and being an organized and wealthy country, luckily the 300 inhabitants had been evacuated, but they're still evacuated. That village, if it's ever rebuilt, will never be what it was. And those houses had stood there for 800 years, which means that the kind of Alpine mentality of we build our villages where we know it's fairly safe, which you see all over the Alps, doesn't pertain anymore because things are getting more unstable because the glaciers are getting thinner and the ice holds the mountains together. The permafrost is thawing. And at the same time, climate change, well, where was it in 2025? We had COP 30, the United States didn't go. We have the President, the most powerful man on earth, we are told. President Trump telling the assembled UN leaders in New York that it was all a massive con job. I have to say this worries me because Switzerland is a wealthy country, but to go to that village and see people just sitting there, shocked, waiting for the insurance man, but not knowing where they were going to live for years on end. And that is happening to small island states, it's happening to, to parts of Africa where we see increasing drought, crops failing, and I don't know what you guys think, but it feels like we don't have the bandwidth to even address it anymore with Switzerland.
- [20:25]
Dorian Burkhalter
I mean, Switzerland is, I think, one of the hardest affected countries in the world by climate change, but I think it's also interesting, you know, if we think about Donald Trump's message about the environment and climate change, even in Switzerland, there's a huge savings that's been approved by the government that's now in front of the parliament. And a lot of the environmental organizations are actually saying that some of those cuts will be problematic for the environment. For example, I think part of it was about renovating buildings so that they're more energy efficient. There's cuts also in education and research. I feel like those aren't really the kind of areas in which you want to cut if you're thinking about addressing climate change in the future.
- [21:16]
Imogen Folks
Do we think the UN has a role to play here? I mean, Guterres, we come back to this. He started his life as UN Secretary General saying climate change was going to be his key focus.
- [21:27]
Emma Farge
Yeah, I feel sorry for him because that was really his mandate and it just feels like it slipped away from him as political priorities have changed. And going into the last year of his mandate, it's going to be hard to drive that point home. I think that it is a top priority with so many other crises around the world.
- [21:45]
Imogen Folks
I mean, we're definitely going to be discussing climate change in 2026, even if the politicians don't do anything about it. Events, natural disasters are going to remind us. I think there's no getting away from that.
- [21:55]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Yeah. And look at the outcome of the plastics treaty negotiations in Geneva, which again was, you would have thought was something that we could have seen some progress on, but it didn't materialize. And then you look at the powerful lobby of the fossil fuel industries in COP meetings.
- [22:14]
Imogen Folks
Well, they came to the plastics treaty as well.
- [22:16]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Indeed. But I mean, it just reminds you where the power really lies at this point in this debate. It is extraordinary.
- [22:24]
Imogen Folks
Nick, do you want to come with your story of 2025?
- [22:29]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, I suppose we ought to bring in Ukraine the Kiev skyline on the fourth round of Russia's now weekly concerted targeting of the water in people's taps.
- [22:43]
Imogen Folks
The heating in their home.
- [22:48]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
An unmanned Russian bomber drone punching a vast hole in the side of the building. Three people lost their lives. More than 10 were wounded, including two children. We did have of Ukrainian peace talks here in Geneva quite recently. And in a recent address to the Human Rights Council, Volkaturk did bring up how all the talk of peace had to some extent eclipsed the humanitarian toll of this conflict. The large numbers of Ukrainians that had been hunted down by, you know, these short range drones, which were apparently the.
- [23:25]
Imogen Folks
Russian soldiers call it going on safari.
- [23:28]
Emma Farge
This is.
- [23:28]
Imogen Folks
Yeah, they post it on YouTube.
- [23:31]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, he said that there had been more than 300 people, you know, individuals sort of killed, riding in buses, riding on cars, walking around, and who are kind of chased and hunted by these, these devices. And he talked also quite grimly about the astonishing reports of torture and abuse of Ukrainian detainees, both civilian and military. I think he said that they'd interviewed 187 who had been returned and 185 had documented in detail extreme forms of torture and abuse, including sexual torture. It gives you a pretty grim assessment on the state of a conflict, that all the talk of peace that was going to come within 24 hours of President Trump's election remains really elusive.
- [24:23]
Imogen Folks
And the peace deal, we don't know quite what's in the latest iteration, but the original had a complete amnesty for war crimes.
- [24:32]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Yeah. And we haven't seen anything that really bridges the positions of the European states, not just Ukraine, but Europe generally, and the position of the United States. And then of course, President Putin, who remains completely obdurate and holding to positions that are completely a non starter as a basis for negotiation.
- [24:57]
Imogen Folks
Maybe this is a point where we should actually bang the drum for the United Nations a bit, because the work that the human rights investigators are doing, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Sudan, whether it's Gaza, this is really important, or Syria, for example, that, you know, if you've had to suffer this kind of violation, at least the UN is providing somebody who will document it and validate. Yes, this happened to you. And maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year, but at some point we hope there will be some accountability. I mean, that's something I think we could say, yeah, we still need the UN in Geneva for, but it's tough.
- [25:36]
Dorian Burkhalter
Because people, when they think about the un, they mostly think about its role is promoting peace in the world. And so this mission obviously hasn't worked very well, or even if it comes to mediation, I think the Secretary General has a little bit of wiggle room when it comes to offering his services as a mediator. But I mean, of course the parties have to accept it, which we can only imagine hasn't really happened. But yeah, I think really in the public's image, the fact that there is such a war that most likely Ukraine will have to give away part of its territory. So it really hurts what the UN stands for and I guess international more broadly.
- [26:18]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
But I mean, you know, the UN is only as good as its member states. And if the member states are Starving United nations humanitarian and international NGO humanitarian agencies of funds. The best way to reduce the load that's left by conflicts is to make peace. And that comes back to the Security Council and the states that serve on it. And we have seen almost total paralysis on the part of the United Nations Security Council.
- [26:48]
Imogen Folks
I think at the end of the day, if you have superpowers and, you know, three of them, they've got their vetoes on the Security Council. At the end of the day, if they don't want to play ball, the UN is basically paralyzed apart from its humanitarian wing. But even now they are suffering this kind of politicization because their funding is being cut. But if you look at Ukraine, for example, the United States has not at any point consulted the United nations, not once about how you might. I mean, we can criticize the UN Secretariat and so on all we like, but there are people there who have some experience of peace building and of bringing people who are completely violently opposed into the room and encouraging them to make some concessions and look each other in the eye. I'm sorry, but business, real estate, guys from Manhattan don't have this kind of experience. I mean, what do we think? How does the UN kind of punch a bit higher if somebody like Trump or Putin's just going to ignore the United Nations?
- [27:55]
Emma Farge
When was the last time, though, that was an earnest attempt to broker an end to a conflict at all?
- [28:02]
Imogen Folks
Syria?
- [28:03]
Emma Farge
Yes, possibly Sudan.
- [28:05]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Was it a serious attempt? There was an attempt which brought in states as peacemakers, states that were actually arming the combatants. So was that a serious attempt?
- [28:17]
Emma Farge
We haven't seen the same leadership though, as we have had in previous generations. And even the role of the UN aid chief, there is some scope for sort of backdoor diplomacy. Maybe we're just not privy to what's going on, but haven't seen those efforts. And the US criticism of the UN is back to basics. Broker ends to conflicts. We haven't seen as much of that as we've seen in the past. Maybe the Black Sea deal, you could say, well, was good old fashioned diplomacy. There was at least an agreement there at one point, but we're just not saying the same.
- [28:55]
Imogen Folks
I mean, we shouldn't necessarily underestimate that. That was not an easy deal to get. You know, it sounds, oh God, but for goodness sake, of course these ships can sail back and forth and deliver grain, but actually this is the hard graft that eventual peace or ceasefires are built on. Not a load of handshakes in the Oval Office or the Kremlin with the.
- [29:17]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Cameras clicking, well, we might segue from there into President Trump.
- [29:22]
Imogen Folks
I know you wanted to talk about him. I want to talk about him, too, on the subject of migration, because that's one unifying factor I think I know is going to be on the agenda in 2026. But first, President Trump.
- [29:38]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, just that Here we are 11 and a half months into his first term, and everything that we have talked about in some way, shape or form has been traced back to him, powerfully influenced by what has or hasn't come out of Washington, D.C. and we have seen, you know, love him or loathe him. I mean, this is probably the most consequential presidency of this century in terms of what he has done to governance within the United States. He's issued more executive orders in the first 11 months than he did in the whole of his first term. He's absolutely turned the relationship between the White House and Congress on its head, expanded executive power. And then in terms of foreign policy, we see President Trump asserting himself as a great peacemaker. But at the same time, when you look at the negotiations around Ukraine and the national security policy that has just come out of the White House, we have seen essentially the transatlantic alliance been severely strained, if not impossibly fractured. And that has been the most significant international alliance underpinning international security since World War II.
- [30:50]
Imogen Folks
It's also kind of the impetus behind the creation of the United nations, the transatlantic alliance.
- [30:55]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
So there we are. But what's going to happen in 2026? And we're seeing him losing some of his grip on the levers of power that have sustained him so well in 2025. I mean, we're seeing the MAGA base showing distinct fractures. We're seeing his poll ratings in relation to economic management slipping quite significantly. We've seen the elections of, for example, a mayor in New York and two governors that were elected. Democratic candidates elected on huge margins, which I think is significantly worrying Republicans. And we're seeing some fissures in between Republican senators and congressmen and the White House in terms of foreign policy. So, yeah, a lot of questions about what he will be left with come the midterms in November 2026, which could.
- [31:52]
Imogen Folks
Affect, I guess, what happens to us and the institutions here. I did read people are talking about it, this interview with the White House chief of staff, Susie Wiles in Vanity Fair. She's quoted as saying she was aghast at what Trump and Elon Musk were doing to US Foreign aid. Did you do anything about her feeling of being Aghast? I don't think so, but I don't know. I suspect he's still going to be living rent free in our brains this time next year. Can we turn to our final topic, which I thought we could all talk about, because it's definitely on the agenda this year and it will be on the agenda next year, and that is migration.
- [32:36]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
All illegal entry will immediately be halted.
- [32:40]
Emma Farge
And we will begin the process of.
- [32:42]
Imogen Folks
Returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. The look may be festive, but the message is not. On a Sunday morning in Crowborough in the southeast of England, residents marched against plans to house asylum seekers in a former army barracks on the edge of town.
- [33:06]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
To stop the boat. Stop the boat. Well, it's incredibly important to me that we stop the boat. To smash the gangs.
- [33:11]
Emma Farge
Smash the gangs.
- [33:12]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
The smashing the gangs. They're running this absolutely vile trade. United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE is now equivalent to some of the largest military forces in the world. This virtual army is supposed to be targeting criminal illegal immigrants in the United States. But more and more U.S. citizens and legal immigrants are being rounded up.
- [33:35]
Imogen Folks
I talked to and inside Geneva listeners, you can hear that we're going to have a special on migration. Early in 2026, I talked to Jan Eglund, former UN emergency relief chief, now head of the Norwegian Refugee Council. Very activ NGO in fact, and he was dismayed. He said it's a complete race to the bottom with the politics of migration, whether in Europe or in America. And he said we're. He basically said Europe is throwing away its civilization the way it is. Is addressing this topic. And this is one here. We're getting a new UN refugee chief, I think will be announced this week. What do we think? Because the goalposts have moved so far, just in a few years. It's like migration is almost like. It's like this dirty word.
- [34:26]
Emma Farge
It's interesting, though, because there was this race to replace Filippo Grande as refugee chief, but everyone still was defending the 1951 convention. There have been attempts to shift the definition of asylum by the states. And in the UNGA earlier this year, you saw the Trump administration trying to narrow the definition of asylum. But so far, at least on a multilateral level in Geneva, everyone is standing by it. But yes, of course, every state is looking after their own interests. And one of the problems is that that sets a very bad example for the states, who are actually doing the most to host to refugees and migrants around the world, which are African countries like Chad Or Uganda or maybe Bangladesh.
- [35:14]
Imogen Folks
Turkey for a while.
- [35:16]
Emma Farge
Yes. And I interviewed the head of the Danish Refugee Council, Charlotte Slent, the other day and she said she's very worried in 2026 about some of those countries saying, well, why should we open our doors? You're not funding this anymore. We're much poorer than you, so why should we let them in?
- [35:34]
Imogen Folks
I mean, that's a recipe for instability and more refugee flows, which is what Europe says, oh, it doesn't want. In America, of course, says it doesn't want.
- [35:44]
Dorian Burkhalter
Dorian, I fear that this narrative that immigration is ruining Europe, that Donald Trump's pushing obviously will inspire European right wing populist leaders. And I think next year we'll hear a lot more about this. And then obviously as well, with what Donald Trump is doing in the us, as you said, I mean, he's lowering the bar really low for what is acceptable and is going against international norms, you know, non reformament or ripping people off the streets.
- [36:17]
Imogen Folks
Yeah, enforced disappearance.
- [36:19]
Dorian Burkhalter
Yeah, exactly. And so it just also weakening international norms. And the funding for all the organizations here that are dealing with this, whether it's the High Commissioner for Refugees or the IOM or the Human Rights Office, all those have been some of the worst affected organizations. So it's not a good sign, I guess.
- [36:42]
Imogen Folks
Nick.
- [36:43]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, even in the uk, you see a centre left government under massive pressure to address the issues of immigration and fearing that it's going to, you know, if an election were held tomorrow, that its massive majority would swing into the hands of a hard right politician who would completely change the rules and would call for UK withdrawn from the European Court of Human Rights. I mean that's just kind of an indicator. And we see right wing governments across Europe pushing this and enormous pressures that are not being properly resisted by governments that I think have a mandate to pursue a sort of more liberal policy.
- [37:28]
Imogen Folks
I wonder how the un, if it can at all counter this, because it is this kind of snake oil salesman thing. You're feeling bad, you can't get a doctor's appointment, you can't get a house. It's that person's fault over there who doesn't look like you, who doesn't speak the same language as you. A rational person actually knows this is nonsense. We know it's because our governments don't invest or they're investing in the wrong things or they haven't planned for the long term. And yet it works. And I remember in it must have been 2016, 2017, everybody talks now about what a disaster it was for Angela Merkel, to say Wirshafendas. Do you remember that? And they let in the Syrian refugees. But sometime around 2017, 2018, the UN refugee agency, they did a series of little films about Syrians living in Germany, completely integrated. I mean, okay, it was a good news story, but do we need more of that? I mean, they interviewed a bus driver and a nurse and people who are doing jobs that Germany needs.
- [38:34]
Emma Farge
It'll be interesting to see what Barham Saleh, the new High Commissioner from Iraq, a former refugee. Exactly. Not the first refugee, apparently, to head the agency, the second after Van Hoeven, who escaped from. From the Netherlands in the Second World War. But it will be exciting to hear, I think, directly from a former refugee, a success story, someone who found an exit plan and became the head of a country. What better example of a positive contribution to society?
- [39:07]
Nick Cumming-Bruce
Well, it was interesting, too. I mean, in the answers that he gave to the questionnaire, which went to all the candidates that they identified as candidates, his answers stressed the importance of UNHCR's protection mandate. And the other particular theme that I saw, I thought was quite heavily stressed in his answers was the principle of inclusion, the importance of including refugee and asylum seeker and stateless people's voices in shaping refugee policy. So that was a point that Filippo Grandi, the outgoing chief, made in his final remarks. It's going to be one of the challenges, and we all wish him well in seeing how he's able to deliver on it.
- [39:51]
Imogen Folks
Well, we do wish him well. But I do think one thing. If you could have refugees more involved with the policy, but also more into schools, tell people about the experiences. You know, unfortunately, even though we accept, but not very many, we accept refugees in Europe. How often do we actually sit down and talk to them, to asylum seekers? But on that note, we ended on migration in part because we're just at the start of 2026 now. We are going to have a special on migration in February. We can have a look at how the first few weeks of the new High Commissioner for Refugees, we are going to be looking at disinformation at some point this year. And we're going to be looking at what is the point of foreign aid with yea sayers and naysayers. So tune in for all of that for now. That's it. Thank you, Dorian, Emma and Nick and all the very best for what we hope will be a brighter and more positive 2026. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross Unites Prisoners of War with their families or why Survivors of Human Rights Violations Turn to the UN In Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen folks, thanks again for listening.