This Is What Trump Is Plotting Instead of Death

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Inside Trump’s Head"

Episode: This Is What Trump Is Plotting Instead of Death

Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Release Date: July 29, 2026

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Overview

In this reflective and unsparingly candid episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles examine the potential aftermath and legacy of Donald Trump's eventual death—both his personal ambition for enduring influence and the psyche of those circling his orbit. The hosts dissect the recent political fallout from Lindsey Graham’s sudden death, discuss dynastic politics, and deeply critique J.D. Vance’s campaign memoir and evolving public persona. Through their trademark blend of dry wit and pointed analysis, they interrogate how ambition, legacy, faith, and opportunism animate the current political class—and how Trump plots to remain at the center, dead or alive.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Death, Legacy, and the Power Vacuum

• [00:39; 14:03; 17:20] The Trump Death Hypothetical:
  • Michael Wolff explores the idea that if Trump were to die suddenly in office, he’d be rapidly mythologized, perhaps even revered:

    “If he died suddenly and in office, that might well transform Donald Trump into a iconic historic figure.” (00:08, 12:18)

  • Wolff challenges whether the only paths for Trump are death or slow decline, arguing Trump believes his dominance will outlast his presidency.

    “He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely... already plotting how from Mar-a-Lago he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics.” (00:46, 14:03)

  • The hosts muse on the collective sigh of relief that might follow Trump’s departure—drawing analogies to the fall of dictators.

    “People will go, they'll breathe again. It's a kind of like, okay, yeah, let's. Let's. History starts over again.” (17:20)

  • Joanna Coles notes contemporary examples of the ambiguous legacy left by political deaths, referencing both Lindsey Graham’s unexpected state honors and the ceremonial elevation of controversial figures.

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2. Lindsey Graham: From Infamy to Statehood

• [01:22 – 05:57] Death as Political PR & Dynastic Politics:
  • The passing of Lindsey Graham provides a satirical platform for Coles and Wolff to analyze how political figures are re-branded in death.

    "Death turns out to be a great PR coup. Sudden death." (02:09, 02:14)

  • Wolff unpacks Graham’s complicated history of “obsequiousness”—particularly his subservience (allegedly to avoid Trump’s slurs)—and the resulting shift in perception posthumously.
  • Coles highlights the nepotistic aspects: Graham's sister Darlene steps into his Senate seat, invoking questions of dynasty in U.S. politics despite American claims to egalitarianism, reminiscent of the Bush and Clinton families.

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3. Trump’s Plans and Enduring Influence

• [14:03–17:41] Trump’s Reluctance to Relinquish Power:
  • Wolff reiterates that Trump thinks in perpetuity:

    “He’s thinking that... he’s going to leave office, he’s going back to Mar-a-Lago. And... he is no doubt already plotting how from Mar-a-Lago, he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics.” (14:03)

  • Reference to Kurt Andersen’s novel imagining Trump dying at age 90, sparking MAGA riots and a civil strife, segueing to how the Trump era’s end will likely feel like “history starts over” (17:20).
  • Wolff cheekily tells a publication he’s “optimistic about Donald Trump’s death” as the best prospect for future political calm (16:57).

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4. J.D. Vance’s Memoir & Vice Presidential Ambitions

A. Vance’s Contradictions & the Search for Meaning

• [19:06–41:24]
  • Coles and Wolff dissect J.D. Vance’s new campaign book, “Communion,” critiquing its awkward straddling of personal spiritual searching and generic campaign talking points.

    “So what is the book about? Because I got to the end of it and I thought, what is this book about?” (21:20 - Coles) “It is just a straightforward campaign book... But the stated purpose of the book is as though he wants to do something more.” (21:32 - Wolff)

  • The hosts emphasize Vance’s attempt to portray himself as a deeply searching, almost tortured soul—yet the end product feels generic and hollow.

    “A guy who is at odds with himself at every turn.” (25:42 - Wolff)

  • Both note the jarring disconnects: Vance, once a self-professed atheist and then a Protestant evangelical, now presents himself as a Catholic—though without fully grappling with the contradiction this poses to his political base.

    “Why would you, an evangelical, whose political career is about to be invested in evangelicalism... pick a Roman Catholic God to be yours?” (31:56 - Wolff) “He needs the evangelicals. So therefore... it’s really, yes I converted to the Roman Catholic Church, but I’m really a Christian, which is a complete misunderstanding…” (35:09 - Wolff)

  • Notable quote on Vance's ambition and his own acknowledgment:

    “Here is I, J.D. Vance, the most ambitious person in America. I'm against ambition.” (25:09 - Wolff)

  • On the book’s literary failures (Coles):

    “There's no detail in it. What did they have for lunch? … We drove around the. We rode around the country. We won the election. That's all it gets.” (37:37)

B. The Politics of Vice Presidency

• [19:06–22:43]
  • The hosts riff on the classic vice-presidential paradox: the suppressed (or not-so-suppressed) ambition for the president’s death, drawing a comically dark comparison to King Charles’ lifelong “waiting for the death of his mother.”

    “They live for the death of the president, but they can't think about that...” (19:14 - Wolff)

C. Disingenuous Storytelling in Vance’s Book

• [28:17–31:01]
  • Wolff calls out Vance’s mischaracterization of his selection as VP, noting his active “campaigning” for the job is erased in the narrative.

    “What happens is he gets back and then begins the serious campaigning to get this job... he's trying to make this happen.” (29:12 - Wolff) “His life does not transform... The hurricane doesn't start until that happens in July." (29:40 - Wolff)

D. Vance’s Faith, Domestic Life & Recurring Contradictions

• [31:01–36:01]
  • The hosts probe Vance's choice of Catholicism (as a tool to win over faith-driven voters?) and the book’s unresolved contradictions between his personal journey, marriage, immigrant ties, and nationalist rhetoric.
  • They satirically contrast charismatic evangelicalism (Charlie Kirk) with Catholic orthodoxy:

    “I can't think of anyone more at odds with Catholicism than Charlie Kirk ... exactly what the Roman Catholic Church is not.” (33:19 - Wolff)

  • On the inadequate treatment of his wife's beliefs and family:

    “The suggestion is that Usha is without religion and without belief, but we don't know this because this is really quite a blank there.” (48:50 - Wolff)

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5. Therapy, Character, and Agency

• [49:20–50:30]
  • Vance's take on self-agency and therapy is critiqued for misunderstanding the point of psychotherapy.

    “The first thing is the framing turned me into a victim rather than an actor. I'm sure that therapy helps many people, but the thought of being a victim made me want to puke.” (49:20 - Vance, read by Coles)

    • Wolff notes: “At the same time, everything about the book goes out of its way to be non controversial.” (50:30)

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6. Political Memoirs: Factory Output

• [38:08–41:24]
  • The hosts discuss the formulaic nature of campaign books, ghostwriting, and disposable campaign literature, with only rare exceptions (e.g., Obama).

    “Everybody who's running for president writes a completely bullshit book which no one reads and no one is expected to read.” (39:35 - Wolff)

  • Amusing anecdote about catching someone buying Mike Pence’s book:

    “And then a guy comes along... picks up Mike Pence's book... And I took everything within me not to say, can you explain yourself? Are you really going to read this?” (40:33 - Wolff)

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7. Laura Loomer, Ukraine, & Foreign Policy Reversals

• [53:57–59:44]
  • Coles and Wolff turn to Laura Loomer’s sudden change of heart on Ukraine, exploring its significance within the broader MAGA world and Trump’s circle.

    “Laura Loomer is not important in the circle, but she can be important to Trump himself. She has Trump's phone number. She can get Trump on the phone. Trump likes to talk to her.” (57:57 - Wolff)

  • This reversal is seen as a bellwether for Trump’s own evolving stance on Ukraine, as battlefield momentum shifts to Ukraine.
    • On the foreign policy front, Wolff bluntly summarizes:

      “The foreign policy aspect of this administration, of the second Trump administration has been a complete disaster.” (59:58 - Wolff)

    • “The alignment with Russia, obviously a bad call... The Iranian thing is a complete disaster.” (60:15)

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8. Critique of Political and Personal Contradictions

• [51:53–53:00]
  • Wolff offers perhaps the most incisive analysis of Vance’s internal schisms:

    “There is a genuinely divided personality here... There is meaning out there, which he is searching for and he hasn't found. And his life is full of so many contradictory parts that it feels like he could come apart at any moment.” (46:05 - Wolff; 46:37)

  • Coles concludes that J.D. Vance is a man “on the edge of either jumping into the abyss or about to fragment in so many places.” (46:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s immortality:

  “He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely.” (00:46, 14:03, Wolff)

• On political hagiography after sudden death:

  “Death turns out to be a great PR coup.” (02:09, Wolff)

• On Vance’s contradictions:

  “A guy who is at odds with himself at every turn.” (25:42, Wolff)

• On unmemorable campaign memoirs:

  “Everybody who's running for president writes a completely bullshit book which no one reads and no one is expected to read.” (39:35, Wolff)

• On foreign policy:

  “The foreign policy aspect of this administration, of the second Trump administration has been a complete disaster.” (59:58, Wolff)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---|---| | 00:39 | Asking if Trump would prefer to die in office, and pondering legacy | | 01:22 | Lindsey Graham’s lying in state; death as PR transformation | | 05:07 | Politics as dynastic, Graham’s sister Darlene | | 14:03 | Trump’s plans for Mar-a-Lago post-presidency | | 15:31 | Discussing novels imagining Trump’s future and death | | 19:06 | The psychology of vice presidents; Vance’s book close reading begins | | 21:20 | Central question: What is Vance’s book about? | | 25:09 | J.D. Vance’s aversion to ambition, yet embodying it | | 31:56 | Vance’s odd conversion to Catholicism, disconnect with base | | 37:37 | Dissecting Vance’s campaign memoir style | | 39:35 | On the formulaic nature of political books | | 49:20 | Vance’s anti-therapy, pro-agency stance | | 51:53 | Wolff on Vance’s existential contradictions | | 53:57 | Laura Loomer’s Ukraine reversal; influence on Trump | | 59:44 | Ukrainian war as historic reversal and Trump’s policy fumbles |

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Style & Tone Highlights

• Candid, irreverent, sharp: Wolff and Coles pull few punches, blending biographical expertise (Wolff) with editorial skepticism (Coles).
• Witty, literary, sometimes sarcastic: Not afraid to lampoon the shallow and formulaic side of political self-invention.
• Balanced cynicism with occasional empathy: Particularly in discussing Vance’s divided psyche.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode is a masterclass in dissecting the performance and psychology of power. Exploring how legacy, death, and ambition entwine, Wolff and Coles expose the opportunism, contradictions, and emotional spinning at the heart of today's political class. Trump is shown as a man unwilling to relinquish center stage; J.D. Vance, as the prototype for the modern, restless, and sometimes desperate climber. All is filtered through the lens of post-Trump America, a country still held in the gravitational pull of its most dominant, unpredictable figure.

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Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts. I. I can't stop scratching my downtown.

[Joanna Coles]

Mm.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud. There's no question too embarrassing for Amazon Health AI. Chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7 Health care just got less painful. If he died suddenly and in office, that might well transform Donald Trump into a iconic historic figure.

[Joanna Coles]

Would Donald Trump prefer to die in office and be remembered as a president who died in office?

[Michael Wolff]

He is not thinking that that's the only options. He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely. And he is no doubt already plotting how from Mar a Lago he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics. It's like when you remove any dominant figure dictators or I think people breathe a big sigh of relief. The quiet will be extraordinary. People will go, they'll breathe again. History starts over.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael. Joanna, we are recording this in the middle of Lindsey Graham's ceremonial lying in state. We are.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm trying to think what that's called. It's not his funeral, but his coffin is being placed in the rotunda, I believe, of the Capitol. And this is a ceremony privilege accorded, I think, definitely. Well, actually, I don't know who it's

[Joanna Coles]

accorded to, but I think great men.

[Michael Wolff]

Great men.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, is this, I mean, I would not have expected this for Lindsey Graham, frankly.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, death turns out to be a great PR coup.

[Joanna Coles]

Sudden death. Sudden death.

[Michael Wolff]

Sudden Death. Lingering. Mitch McConnell. Yeah, forget about it. But, no, but, but literally two weeks ago. When did he die last?

[Joanna Coles]

Two weeks ago, three weeks ago, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, whenever the last time he was alive, Lindsey Graham was largely regarded as a, you know, as a, as a hopeless sellout, suck up. I mean, an embarrassment. I mean, here was a person who, who, I mean, we know all of the things that he said about, the genuine things he said about Donald Trump. And then in order to maintain his own relevance, and also certainly quite a number of people in the Trump orbit have suggested to me in order to avoid Trump's slurs against gay people, he sucked up to Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

But Donald Trump does slur gay people, but not Lindsey.

[Michael Wolff]

That's the point. So in order to avoid that, in order to avoid the getting on Trump's

[Joanna Coles]

bad gay side, okay, so to avoid exposure, in fact, he stood up to Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

It's not even exposure. Trump does this thing that suggests suggesting he Calls people and he said, said, you know, I hear there's something, a lot of funny stuff about Lindsay. A lot, a lot of stuff. You hearing that? Then everybody.

[Joanna Coles]

So he's, that's, so that's how he gets the information. He gets some people, and that's how

[Michael Wolff]

he spreads the slur.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, in death, Lindsey Graham is getting a lot of solemnity. We've got President Netanyahu and Zelensky coming into town. They're both having meetings with Trump today. But are you actually saying that this is a PR coup for Lindsey Graham?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, of course it is. Literally. So he has gone from a person in embarrassment. And I think that he was widely seen as this. I mean, he was shameless in his suckuppery. And now here he is, a statesman of our time.

[Joanna Coles]

A statesman of our time. And his sister, 11 years younger, whom he adopted after both her parents died, is sitting there ready to. I find this absolutely remarkable, this nepo dynastic politics. I mean, she's going to inherit his Senate seat.

[Michael Wolff]

It looks like it seems somewhat ironic that a Brit would find.

[Joanna Coles]

No, that's why I moved here. That's why I moved here. I mean, to get rid of that stuff. And then, of course, you have the Bushes, you have the Clintons.

[Michael Wolff]

Politics always has been, always in this country, a strong dynastic theme.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, do you think Darlene Graham is going to win the seat? Cause now we've got Mark Sanford, the former governor of South Carolina is coming out to run for Senate seat. I don't know what he's done since he stepped down as governor. I mean, he needs a job. He needs a job. He wants to be back in power. He wants the fun of it all.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I think that she probably will. I think, I think the, I mean, there are two steps here. You know, there is the, there is the first step of the primary in which if she gets 50%, then she doesn't have to go to a runoff. That'll be the interesting, interesting thing. But the Trump endorsement is very powerful.

[Joanna Coles]

Why did Trump endorse her so early? Why didn't he see who the field was going to flush out?

[Michael Wolff]

I think he liked the story, actually. I think that there's, you know, Trump is a movie of the week guy.

[Joanna Coles]

Right? You said that last week. Yeah, you said that on Saturday. So this is the Hallmark movie of the week.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. The sentimental aspect of this, I think it works for Trump now. Remember, it works for Trump's. Now might he shift on this? Might. If she is not obsequious in the way that her brother was.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, he could. I mean, I think it's yet unclear because we hardly know this person, Darlene. She's just sort of. Sort of. She just entered the stage, a little shock on her face. And could she blow it? Yeah, easily.

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[Joanna Coles]

So when we were watching, we had the prayer, and then a lady from South Carolina got up and you said, I can't watch these people. And I said, when you say these people, what do you mean? And you said.

[Michael Wolff]

I said, morons,

[Joanna Coles]

please extrapolate.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know who this woman was, but I was just signaled by the way that. That. By our producer, that she's a congresswoman.

[Joanna Coles]

But there are congresswoman from South Carolina.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm sure. I'm sure. But it doesn't matter. I mean, she. She, you know, and she came up and she spoke with everything she said out of her mouth was. Was valueless and expected. Lindsay is not only a saint and has ascended to heaven, but he is the. Everyone in every one of our little cities was loved. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Joanna Coles]

He's gone up to that great golf course in the sky. I think he's probably playing 18 rounds, looking down on us and laughing in that fruity laugh that.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I mean, I think most people, when they speak it, funerals default to a moron setting. But

[Joanna Coles]

I have not spoken of very many funerals.

[Michael Wolff]

But I've spoken at a lot of funerals.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you descend into that?

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, no. I'm fantastic. I get them laughing.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, you do?

[Michael Wolff]

That's what you have to do.

[Joanna Coles]

I spoke at Helen Gurley Brown's funeral because she died shortly after I became editor of Cosmopolitan, and it was an unbelievable lineup of speakers.

[Michael Wolff]

Now, just let me interrupt because I actually believe Helen Gurley Brown, for a good part of my life, was probably one of the most famous women in America. She is now, I suspect, an utterly forgotten woman. But. But she was. She. And she was famous for writing a book in the early 1960s called sex and the Single Girl. And then she Went on to be. To make Cosmopolitan magazine one of the most successful magazines in the country. But she was.

[Joanna Coles]

Are you mansplaining Helen Gurley Brown to me? You are mansplaining HGB to me.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you. You were not. You just were assuming that people knew who she was.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, I was gonna go on and

[Michael Wolff]

explain who she was. I was pointing out that she is entirely forgotten.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, she probably is entirely forgotten by me, except by you. And I haven't forgotten her because she did an incredible job with Cosmo. And she took over, you know, it was a small literary magazine. And when she took it over, it was the same year that the Pill was. What is the word? Sanctioned or whatever, and came onto the market. Really. And so she rode that wave and created a phenomenal magazine. And I've always thought she didn't quite get the credit she should have done for creating the template for the Modern magazine. But my point is, I.

[Michael Wolff]

She was a super sex person. She was. That's what she was. She was a super sex person. Had a lot of sex of all kinds.

[Joanna Coles]

Did she have a lot. I often wonder if she actually had. She was married to David Brown, who

[Michael Wolff]

himself was having a lot of sex. Yeah, it was a sex positive time.

[Joanna Coles]

I think the term now is sex positive, not super sex. But I remember Liz Smith, the then gossip columnist spoke, and so did Barbara Walters. I had to follow Barbara Walters. And Barbara Walters was absolutely brilliant. And her last line was, a lot

[Michael Wolff]

of other people have had a lot of sex.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, right, good point. Very good point. Okay, well, and I got up there and I had been given a letter. She used to write loads and loads of letters. And I'd been given one of her letters that she wrote home to her mum about how she had met Jacqueline Suzanne, the novelist, who at one point was very famous. And now everybody's forgotten.

[Michael Wolff]

Speaking of a lot of sex.

[Joanna Coles]

Also a lot of sex. And I got up and I read the letter. And as I got up there, I thought, there's no way in hell I am able to find Barbara Walters. Cause she'd been hilarious. And so I had to completely change the tone. And so I read this little letter and by the end of it, I almost choked up. And I never choke up. I haven't cried for years. I'm just not a weeper. And by the end of that, I had almost cried.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's what funerals are, you know.

[Joanna Coles]

As I say, when I met her for lunch for the first time.

[Michael Wolff]

Good PR coup.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, a good PR coup. It was a very Good.

[Michael Wolff]

They brings everybody, everybody to Spears. So when.

[Joanna Coles]

If you die.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, when. Not me, but more. More likely Donald Trump, you know, that, that's, that's interesting. I mean, if he, if he died suddenly and in office, he would be. That would. That might well transform Donald Trump into a iconic, historic figure.

[Joanna Coles]

So would he like that? Does Donald Trump just want to go on and on and on, or does he want a long, slow decline like Mitch McConnell? Mitch McConnell, by the way, released another photograph of himself this week, yesterday, and nobody believed it. Everybody was like, just put out a video, man. Just say 10 second video. Everybody's got an iPhone now, Mitch, these things. Or an Android phone. Everybody has a phone. You can do a little video on it. All you have to do is say, thank you for your well wishes. I'm working hard at rehab. I'll be back soon. He can't do it.

[Michael Wolff]

He can't speak.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you think that's true?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think he's probably. I think he's had a stroke and the impairment is

[Joanna Coles]

substantial, severe. So why don't they just say that? Why are they pretending? Is it to get the August 3 deadline, after which they don't have to put someone new in?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't. I mean, I don't know. It seems ridiculous to me, but it also seems like, I don't know. I don't know the answer. Nobody knows the answer.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so let's go back to Donald Trump. Would Donald Trump prefer, given his druthers, as if we have any choice over this, to die in office and be remembered as a president who died in office? Because most of them don't.

[Michael Wolff]

He is not thinking that that's the only options. He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely. He's going to leave office. He's going back to Mar a Lago. And then. And he is no doubt already plotting how from Mar a Lago, he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics.

[Joanna Coles]

I just realized that we haven't told people what else we're planning to talk about. As usual, we just got straight into it. We forgot to tell them. Please subscribe. We forgot to tell them who we are because we have lots of new people who come to the podcast every week. You're Michael Wolff. You write books about Trump. I'm Joanna Coles. I am the chief content officer at the Daily Beast. And we're going to discuss J.D. vance's book. We're going to discuss Laura Loomer's Bizarre 180 on Ukraine and the discovery that she is, in fact, Ukrainian. Her roots are Ukrainian. Where should we start? Trump's death.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's finish off on Trump's death. Yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

We had Kurt Anderson on the show on Sunday, who's written a new novel, and in it, he imagines Trump's death, and he's coming down the escalator at Trump Tower. This takes place in 2035. So he's 90, and he has a massive stroke and just collapses. And all his MAGA fans think he's been assassinated and roar onto the street in Fifth Avenue and start smashing cars, and it's the beginning of the Civil War.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's interesting to think that Trump could go on for another 10 years or almost 10 years after he leaves office. That would be eight years after he leaves office. Yeah. And it's interesting that he might. I mean, that would be the. That would certainly be the Trump plan. I'm going to leave office in 2028, 2029, and return to Mar a Lago. And I am going to do from Mar a Lago what I did from the last time they sent me back to Mar a Lago, which is to continue to dominate the American political landscape.

[Joanna Coles]

Mm.

[Michael Wolff]

Is that possible? Well, I mean, the truth is, thank God for old age.

[Joanna Coles]

It creeps up on all of us.

[Michael Wolff]

As a matter of fact, somebody somewhat off topic here. I just was asked by a publication that will go nameless to write a book, a piece, a short piece, about something that I am optimistic about.

[Joanna Coles]

Good Lord, what could that possibly be?

[Michael Wolff]

And I said I'm optimistic about Donald Trump's death. And I actually disagree with Kurt. I think when that happens, that moment, and it's like when you remove any dominant figure, dictators, or. I think people breathe a big sigh

[Joanna Coles]

of relief, a big exhale.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I think it's like the world clears. It's suddenly. And with Trump, you know, all of this, the quiet will be extraordinary. People will go, they'll breathe again. They'll say. It's a kind of like, okay, yeah, let's. Let's. History starts over again.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we'll see, won't we? We'll see. You know who I think?

[Michael Wolff]

Saul Bellow line that says death is good for some people.

[Joanna Coles]

That is a good line. I went to interview Saul Bellow once up in Vermont, and I asked him if he had any regrets because he was in his 80s at this point, and he said his regrets were around women.

[Michael Wolff]

I was gonna say, did he make a pass?

[Joanna Coles]

No, he didn't make a pass. Actually. I Think he was too old to make it?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as a matter of fact, I mean, that makes sense if you've ever read a Saul Bellotti novel, which I have.

[Joanna Coles]

I've struggled them. I find them very dense.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, yes. No, I find them like. It's just bliss.

[Joanna Coles]

I was wondering if I'd made a pass at him, actually. No, no, I'm joking. I didn't, I didn't. But I enjoyed meeting him. We had a sort of five hour lunch and his much younger wife was sort of hovering in the background. And I remember we ate blueberries from his garden. Anyway, I'm digressing.

[Michael Wolff]

Anyway, he's my favorite writer of all American, modern American writers.

[Joanna Coles]

And I would proffer a man who's completely gone out of fashion now. John Updike. I would have John Updike over Saul Bellow any day.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Completely out of fashion. Well, they're all out of fashion.

[Joanna Coles]

They're all out of fashion. All right, so let's come back to. You know who I think is thinking very hard about Donald Trump's death?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't.

[Joanna Coles]

J.D. vance. Oh, J.D. vance. We can now talk an interesting thing

[Michael Wolff]

about vice presidents because, you know, they live for the death of, of the president, but they can't think about that. I mean, they can't. They certainly can't give any intimation that they are thinking about it.

[Joanna Coles]

Of course not.

[Michael Wolff]

And in their own minds. It must be a weird, A weird thing to be wishing for the death of someone. I mean, also.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I've always thought that was the weirdest thing about King Charles, actually. That King Charles entire life was wishing for the death of his mother so he finally could get to be king and be the boss of everybody. And yet you're wishing for your mother to die at the same time. Very odd situation.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Joanna Coles]

Long live the king.

[Michael Wolff]

With him, though, you could really see it. Let's go. Let's move on.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, she took us. I know he was 74 by the time he took, and then, poor man, two years later was diagnosed with cancer. And we don't know what kind of cancer, but we know he can live with it even if it's not curable. Strange. Anyway, I think J.D. vance is thinking a lot about Donald Trump's death. And what I found most extraordinary about his book Communion, and I know you've read it now too, because we were texting about it, is how little there is about Donald Trump in this book. It's the most remarkable absence, as is his political life.

[Michael Wolff]

There's a whole range of Things that are not in this book. There's very little about his kind of curse, skirting over his marriage and absolutely not addressing the fact that his wife's family is an immigrant family, amidst his general sourness about all immigrants. I mean, which is also another. Another point about his conversion to Catholicism, which in itself he kind of skirts over. Although the book is actually about his search for God.

[Joanna Coles]

So what is the book about? Because I got to the end of it and I thought, what is this book about? I think you're completely right that everybody who's running for has to write a book. I can't wait for Pete Hegseth's book.

[Michael Wolff]

It's interesting. It's two things. It is just a straightforward campaign book. And every issue that you can think of, he ticks off a position on economics, value, screen time, elder care, you know, the.

[Joanna Coles]

Did you just say springtime?

[Michael Wolff]

Screen time.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, screen time. I always said springtime. Well, I'm just saying. And I was like, oh, he's going to change spring.

[Michael Wolff]

That's. Yes. So all of those things. But the stated purpose of the book is as though he wants to do something more. I mean, let's remember JD Vance is a super. Look at me, Best boy, hot dog, full of. I gotta be the best. I gotta be the top of the class. I gotta be the president. And in this. So it's like I gotta write a campaign book, but I gotta make it somehow more meaningful than a campaign.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, than anybody else's campaign book.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. So I will talk about. I will write a campaign book, but it will be under the rubric of my search for God.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Which also is a good campaign. That gives me a campaign advantage too, because I'm going to have to win over the. The God people. And I mean, I can't.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you're going to talk to the base, the evangelicals. Right. Slash, slash, people that believe in God.

[Michael Wolff]

So. So that's there. And it's. I mean, it's a weird thing because this is a real book. This is a kind of. At least one thread through this book is the Searcher is a searcher's book. I am looking. I am not satisfied. I am not. I mean, this is essentially what he's saying. I'm not satisfied with what. What I have. What the meaning I have found in life. I am. I am an unhappy person. You know, and there's briefly talks about he could go to a therapist. But no, he doesn't want to do that anymore.

[Joanna Coles]

He goes to a therapist briefly. Right. And then decides that the therapist isn't helpful enough and that it's. It's whiny to talk about yourself. And that the therapist somehow lets him off and sort of is understanding actually of what his background has been, which has been up and down, family of addicts, living with his grandmother, et cetera. And what he wants is more responsibility for self, in a way.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't. Yeah, I mean, that's theory. He wants God, whatever God is, which then becomes germane to this book on what he thinks God is and how you in his particular path to God along the way as he's dealing with screen time and elder care and taxes. And so you have this. The juxtaposition, and it's an awkward juxtaposition, is my search for spirituality at the same time and in the same context that I'm really climbing up the greasy pole of success. And that's what also he is opposed to. I mean, essentially the message, maybe the central message is here is I, J.D. vance, the most ambitious person in America. I'm against ambition.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes. And ambition will make you miserable.

[Michael Wolff]

Ambition does not bring you happiness. And what brings you happiness is a good domestic, you know, a nice domestic life, a nice church going domestic life. Now, I don't have that. I mean, I don't have that, but J.D. vance doesn't have that. As a matter of fact, I can't think of anything probably more at odds and remote from that than having a serious political career.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, a serious political career means you do not have a domestic life. Your churchgoing life is a phony churchgoing life. So it's again, this sense of a guy who is at odds with himself at every turn.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and what I found most extraordinary about it, and you're right that this is a campaign book, is that what he's trying to do, incredibly, obviously, is separate himself from Donald Trump. So I was going to read a couple of bits from it. So he picks up. There's a chapter called when in Rome. He's been at the Munich conference where he's, you know, basically announced that he doesn't really believe in Europe as it is. And he goes, if Munich was a whirlwind, what came after I returned was a Category 5 hurricane. Though I had heard that President Trump might be interested in having me join his ticket in the national campaign now underway, I figured it was a long shot. I only had a year of political experience as a white man from Ohio. I added no diversity to the ticket and didn't deliver a swing state. Okay, cut to the most fascinating part of the process was also the most absurd. Absurd. The in person vetting with me, my wife and a campaign attorney. You never cheated on your wife? He asked. I haven't, but I assume that people who have don't just admit it to a stranger. Sorry, I have to ask. Yeah, I know. Now, of course, this is for, you know, to be the vice president to Donald Trump, who's cheated on everybody and everything, including his taxes. Anyway, the next, the next paragraph. On the morning of the 2024 Republican National Convention, President Trump called me and asked me to join him on the ticket. My family's lives changed instantly from the media spotlight to the ever present Secret Service detail. The weekend after I was nominated, I tried to go to the grocery store, but if anyone there didn't already know who I was, they surely noticed the 40 armed guards surrounding me. That's about as much as you get. I mean, most people go into this in real detail.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. And actually, let me.

[Joanna Coles]

But hold on, let me just finish. It's almost as if it's not really that big a deal that Donald Trump selected him to be his vice president. We know this is, to date the crowning glory of this unbelievably ambitious man's life. And what he realizes now it is a millstone around his neck if he is going to run in 2028 and he is trying to do what Kamala Harris failed to do with Joe Biden, which is put a wedge between them.

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely. But. And let me just fill in, this is. This is. This isn't what happened.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, go on.

[Michael Wolff]

So the Munich conference is in February, right. He's not selected to be the vice president until July. So actually, what is happening. It's not a. Whatever word.

[Joanna Coles]

What's happened to you?

[Michael Wolff]

What?

[Joanna Coles]

You're making Mitch McConnell noises.

[Michael Wolff]

I just forgot the word. The word. The. The.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he says, I heard that President Trump might be interested in.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no. Just after he gets back in. In this. As he tells the story.

[Joanna Coles]

After I got back, asked me to join him on the ticket.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, no, after I got back from the co. From. From the, the security conference in Munich. In a maelstrom or, you know, as though everything is starting.

[Joanna Coles]

Cat three, five. Hurricane.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Okay, there. That's not true. Actually. What happens is he gets back and then begins the serious campaigning to get this job. It's not things that happen to him. He's trying to make this happen. And his people, Peter Thiel foremost among them, are beginning to lobby the, the set of people around Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

So, so this is all completely disingenuous.

[Michael Wolff]

Completely.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, it literally.

[Michael Wolff]

And it doesn't happen until, as I say, until July. And, and it's unclear that this is gonna. Going to happen to him at this point. Trump is not particularly convinced. Trump doesn't, you know, he's, he would not be, I would say, among the top. Among the top three people yet. And then by a process elimination and by the process of who wants it and who doesn't, I mean, he does get it. I mean, he's always sort of been a contender. He's the candidate of, well, Peter Thiel and the technology people, but also of Trump's son, Don Jr. Yes. So he is certainly in the mix, but that doesn't happen. So his life does not transform the category. The hurricane doesn't start until that happens in July.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also that he's part of trying to make the hurricane happen. That he's behaving as if it's all done to him, as he has no agency, actually.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

But in fact, he's hustling as hard as he possibly can because the thing you learn from this book is he is a hustler. He's always hustling to get the best priests available. I mean, he wants to go to the fancy church.

[Michael Wolff]

Totally.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, he's using the Catholic Church in this case as well.

[Michael Wolff]

And this is something else from the point of view of the theology in this book. I mean, so J.D. vance grows up in an evangelical household and is a devoted evangelical himself and then becomes disillusioned and then becomes an atheist. I mean, kind of a militant atheist. And then that doesn't work for him. And he goes to law school, he goes to Yale. And I think he thinks that the Ivy League might save him. And that doesn't quite work. He's still not satisfied, not happy, not required, quieted in his soul. And he becomes a venture capitalist. And so I guess is then I'll get rich.

[Joanna Coles]

Money will give me salve and solve my issues.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And then he goes back to being. And then he goes back to religion, but he doesn't go back to evangelical religion or to being a Protestant. He becomes a Roman Catholic. And. And there's no real explanation. You're looking for God. Why would you choose. Why would you. An evangelical, someone who is, who is wholly. Whose political career is about to be invested in evangelicalism and essentially the white South. Why would you become. Pick a Roman Catholic God to be yours? And it's not clear. He doesn't really Explain this. And it's one of those other contradictions. I mean, the Roman Catholic Church, again, amid all of his sourness about immigrants. The Roman Catholic Church is an immigrant church. He doesn't deal with this. The Roman Catholic Church, actually, then. Then curiously, his models, his religious model, chief religious model, remains Charlie Kirk.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. I was just gonna say that. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

And I can't think of anyone at more at odds with. With Catholicism than Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk is in Evangelical Charismatic. I speak to God. I speak on behalf of God. Exactly what the Roman Catholic Church is. I mean, there's. There's. I mean. I mean, the Roman. The formal, hierarchical Roman Catholic Church could not be more at odds with the. That. That charismatic evangelical.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, think of the odds of it, too. I mean, you know, the confession booth, the sort of darkness, the formality of the Catholic service against the fireworks that they had for the memorial for Charlie Kirk in the Arizona stadium. I mean, it's a show, it's performative.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, let's assume that maybe at some point there is something in the Roman Catholic Church, and certainly JD Vance would not be the first person to find something there, something. Something unique, something that speaks to him, something that worthy of this conversion in his life. But he can't say that because he doesn't want to antagonize the evangelicals who he will need. I mean, the Catholics are much more unreliable in terms of a coalition. He needs the evangelicals. So therefore, it's not. It's really. Yes, I converted to the Roman Catholic Church, but I'm really a Christian, which is a complete misunderstanding. I mean, the history of Western history is a battle between Protestants and Catholics.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, you can't just smooth this over.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's also, as you were pointing out before we sat down to discuss this, it's the church of the Hispanic community, the Latin community, who he is literally rounding up with masked ice agents and throwing in the back of bands. And how he tries to square that is completely unsatisfactory in the book. And the whole thing is like he's got one side of his life compartmentalized over here, which is. I'm wrestling with why are we here? What are we doing? And all these priests who appear to be sort of father figures to him, giving all this advice. And then on the flip side, he is the vice president to Donald Trump, who is the cruelest, most unpleasant man you can imagine.

[Michael Wolff]

I think you could call Donald Trump a heathen.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you could definitely call him a heathen. Right. The way he holds the Bible Upside down. I mean, it's laughable. What he's. How he's trying to swear the world.

[Michael Wolff]

No. And then there's, you know, within this book, you're. As a man, I am questioning. I have tons of questions. Questions. I'm. I'm a questing. I'm a searcher for this. But in real life, J.D. vance, I mean, what we've seen of him, he's a complete dickhead full of certainties. And, you know, and anybody who deviates from MAGA or Trump doctrine is, you know, he insults and dismisses.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, then he closes up to Stephen Miller, who's the architect of what's going on with immigration right now. And then he basically attacks the Catholic Church, too, for not having a realistic view of what immigration is. Then he attacks modern economists saying that they don't understand what immigration is. I mean, the whole, you know, he has his Ayn Rand moment as well. Let's not forget that, where he talks about the Fountainhead, and that's his brief kind of venture capital moment. And it's all about the markets. The markets will save us. And then he decides that's not true. But I just wanted to read this bit here because it says so this is how he describes the campaign. We traveled around the country. I gave speeches and interviews to the media. USHA found outings in new cities with the kids. The president and I won the election, and I became the Vice President of the United States. We moved into a giant house at the Naval Observatory in Northwest Washington. We arrived around noon on January 21st to a delicious cooked by our new team of chefs. Father Henry came to offer a blessing for the new house. And the kids explored their new rooms and playrooms. I mean, this is the man that wrote Hillbilly Elegy. I mean, how could he possibly have written. There's no detail in it. What did they have for lunch? Well, I mean, it makes no sense as a book. We drove around the. We rode around the country. We won the election. That's all it gets.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, just to understand, I mean, Hillbilly Elegy, which is a pretty good book, it's well written, and he wrote it. I mean, he didn't have anyone else to write it.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

When you're a political figure, when you're at that level, I mean, you have a huge staff, you don't have the time, you don't have the mental calm to write a book. So what do you do? You get other people to write. And that's partly what this book feels like. So at there is the part of the book which is J.D. vance. I am. I am searching for something. I'm an unhappy person, I would expect. You know, he's a kind of a depressed person.

[Joanna Coles]

And well, then he grew up with no structure.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And he's.

[Joanna Coles]

So he's looking for structure.

[Narrator/Announcer]

He is looking.

[Michael Wolff]

And that is there. And I think that he. He said to aids, okay, this is a book about my search for meaning. I want that. But it's also the other things. So. And you're farming this out to aids. You're giving a kind of top line. This is what I want. But you do the research on this topic and you do the research on that topic, and then I need an outline and then I'll fill in some of that.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Because it doesn't flow as a book. There's no flow to it. I mean, there's a chronology to it, but there's really no flow.

[Michael Wolff]

But again. But again, what is interesting is there, I mean, everybody who's running for president writes a completely bullshit book which no one reads and no one is expected to read, although.

[Joanna Coles]

Except Obama's books. Obama's the Audacity of Home.

[Michael Wolff]

But that was before he was a.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But I think he was always thinking of running for president. Right. He was just looking for his time. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

But again, that's a book that he early. That he. That he wrote at a given point in time. And the book that came after that is Not Dreams of My Father, is not particularly readable. But I was just gonna say nobody reads these books and nobody really buys these books. But. So I go into the bookstore to get this to get J.D. vance's book and J.D. vance's book in the bookstore that I went to.

[Joanna Coles]

Did you go to Bookhampton?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Is right next JD Vance and then Mike Pence's book.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, how funny. Nobody's going to read M. Pence.

[Michael Wolff]

No. So I see. So I'm looking, looking at this and thinking, go, I have to buy this book. And. And then a guy comes along in the. In East Hampton and picks up Mike Pence's book and takes it to the cash register and literally buys it. I'm like, oh, my God. And I took everything within. Within me not to say, can you explain yourself? Are you really going to read this?

[Joanna Coles]

Maybe he's buying it as a joke for a friend.

[Michael Wolff]

Ah, maybe, maybe.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I told you my difficulty of finding J.D. vance's book. They didn't have it in McNally Jackson. They definitely didn't have it in the Strand. And they made a point of telling me that they hadn't ordered it, and then I got it at Barnes and noble with this $5 off sticker, which. So at least my walk got.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, So I have a passage that I. That I want to read.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.

[Joanna Coles]

All right.

[Michael Wolff]

And he's writing about his. About Usha. And he says one night she told me about a book she'd read by Joan Didion called the Year of Magical Thinking. I'm really freaked out by Death, she said she told me, and I found it to be cathartic. This is the book to be cathartic?

[Joanna Coles]

She's saying that?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Wow. I replied. I'll pick it up from the library tomorrow. Notice. The library?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, of course, the library. The library. The. The libraries that, you know, with all their cuts.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Are being closed all over the country.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And you don't think J.D. vance is just going, if he wants to read a book to Amazon like the rest of us?

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I told her good night and that I loved her. And I guess he's not getting into bed.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think there. There she may be working in Washington at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

I told her good night and that I loved her. And then I went to the online Oxford English Dictionary to look up cathartic. And then in the text, he actually reproduces the right dictionary definition of cathartic. Now, you know, cathartic is a. Is a, you know, is a nice word. I mean, he knows what cathartic means. I mean, he went to college. Everybody. If you. If you went to college and you don't know what cathartic means, you have failed college or college has failed.

[Joanna Coles]

He was writing press releases for the Marines. That's what he did. He was in communications. Of course, he knows.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's already written hillbilly elegy by this point.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, that's absurd.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, this is the timeline, Right? So he is doing this. This thing. It's also a kind of.

[Joanna Coles]

It's not that complicated a word about it.

[Narrator/Announcer]

No.

[Michael Wolff]

And it's also a kind of a weird. Also, frankly, if you're condescending way to stroke his wife.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think it might be more. You know, he's obviously trying to reach down to people who are struggling to read his book, but it's bizarre. He wouldn't know the word. First of all, he worked in communications, but secondly, church is full of catharsis. They talk all the time. If you go to a church service about how cathartic it is to confess your sins or to listen to or to Pray. The whole point of prayer is cathartic. So this makes no sense. And why did nobody pick it up? Why is nobody editing this book? And can I just add, this cover is dreadful. And when I look to see what the church is, this little sort of church. Maybe it's in Ohio. No, it's Adobe stock photo. They couldn't even come up with a personal church to him.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they never take a photo for a. I mean, I've written a lot of books, and one of the things that distinguishes all of the books I've written is terrible covers. Because at some point in the. I don't think that's generation ago.

[Joanna Coles]

Of Fire and Fury, it's got one

[Michael Wolff]

of the terrible, terrible. Not only is it one of the terrible covers of all time, it became actually an online meme. Can you make a better cover for this book? It's just a generic cover. It's like, here's a Macintosh. They say to some kid in the office, you can work the Macintosh, right?

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. That dates you. I don't think anybody's saying you can do the Macintosh. That is very 90s.

[Michael Wolff]

No, but that is literally where the book business is.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, nowadays, you could come up with a better one on AI. In fact, this should be a challenge to anybody watching. Could you come up with a better cover for JD Vance, this book than this? If you. We have so many creative people who listen to us, please send it to us, because this is literally stock photo. It's Adobe stock photo.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay? All folks. Nobody ever gets a picture they don't even take. When I first started to write books, you know, they sent a photographer to take your picture. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Can you send us a picture now?

[Joanna Coles]

Right? You have to take a picture of yourself. All right, well, is there a picture of J.D. vans in here? Yes, there is. I think it's his official portrait.

[Michael Wolff]

Y. They. They just. I mean, it's. Anyway, it's the book business, and I actually wonder how much he got for this book.

[Joanna Coles]

I don't know how much he got for it. We should find out, because we should. Remember Andrew Cuomo got 5 million for his. And he made some of his staff write his book, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

Very opportunistic of him. American Leadership.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

Anyway, the thing, though, that I want to emphasize here is that this isn't just a phony baloney campaign book. Even though catharsis. This is a book of a guy who really feels like. I mean, it really feels like he is. There is meaning out there, which he is searching for and he hasn't found. And his life is full of so many contradictory parts that it feels like he could come apart at any.

[Joanna Coles]

At any moment. I thought that too, that this is a man on the edge of either jumping into the abyss or about to fragment in so many places.

[Michael Wolff]

And I. And I'd go for another. Another point, and maybe the most important one is that it's really unclear what kind were he to become the President of the United States, what kind of president he would be or what he would stand for or. I couldn't even tell you, actually projecting. Would he be a good president or. I mean, good and bad in the sense of what a liberal person would think of him. You can't tell where he will go.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And also, can I just point out that this is a man who certainly doesn't understand what the word cathartic meant. And then one of his chapters is called Semper why Namport. But I did want to read one of the priests that he has analyzes his relationship with Usha and says that. Well, I can't find the actual quote now because I was underlining everything going through. Oh, that's right. There was a great line where he goes, I had unconsciously absorbed the biases of America's educated class. What is he talking about? But one of the priests says to him that he's putting far too much pressure on Usha and that he's taken his essential desire for security and structure from his grandmother murmur and put it onto Usha. And then there's a whole debate about how does the priest know? Because the priest is essentially without relationship experience. Anyway, it was just an interesting point.

[Michael Wolff]

I found the Usha thing interesting, too, because it's un. I mean, the suggestion is that Usha is without religion and without belief, which is. But we don't know this because this is really quite a blank there.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. I was gonna say Usha is blank in the book.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And then. But then the children are. Are being raised. We are sort of. Sort of prompted to assume as Roman Catholics. So was there a discussion with the. There must have been a discussion with. With the wife. I mean, this is a pretty. It's not an insubstantial thing in a. In a marriage and in decisions you make about your children. But we don't get any of that.

[Joanna Coles]

No, we don't. And then here's the bit I wanted to talk about about in terms of therapy. And for those of you who are in therapy or have therapy or have ever had therapy, this is his thing. There was a deeper problem with therapy as I encountered it. The first thing is the framing turned me into a victim rather than an actor. I'm sure that therapy helps many people, but the thought of being a victim made me want to puke. No matter how bad the things that happened to me, I didn't want to see myself as a helpless bit character in my own life, a person to whom things happened. I wanted to be the author of my own destiny. Our trauma did not write us a moral blank check. And I thought. I thought that he misunderstood what therapy was actually. And then he goes, I was searching for a more satisfying accounting of wrongdoing and responsibility, of temptation and willpower, of virtue and guilt. It was equally wrong to wallow in trauma and pretend it controlled us or worse, deprived us of our agency. There had to be a third world. But most of all, I wanted to be a better person. I wanted to be worthy of the woman I was madly in love with.

[Michael Wolff]

There's a kind of thing in which the premise of the book is meant to be bold. I'm going to get out there. This is about God, about my search, my search for God to decide this is what is most important to me. And I'm out there. I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna admit to this, I'm gonna reveal myself. But at the same time, he goes, everything about the book goes out of its way to be non controversial.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And the Charlie Kirk thing is also interesting because Charlie, who of course isn't here to contradict any of this, becomes his sort of bro in a way that he talks to about the whole thing. And you just feel like that's totally unconvincing to me. I just don't believe that he had that much in common to talk to Charlie about.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think that's true. And also, as I say, the Catholicism of it all, the Catholic Church of it all, I find it impossible to imagine Charlie Kirk having any kind of sympathy with the Roman Catholic Church.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, let's hope that J.D. vance does go to confession every Sunday. Cause I think JD would find it helpful.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, and actually he might again. And I don't wanna entirely make this about making fun of this guy because.

[Joanna Coles]

No, no. Cause you don't want to be little someone spiritual.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I do, usually.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, well, I do. I don't want to.

[Michael Wolff]

But I do find that this is. That there is a genuinely divided personality here. I mean, and that's what I usually find interesting in a character. Donald Trump doesn't have A divided personality. Most politicians don't. And JD Vance does. And that could be. In so many ways. That can be interesting in so many ways. You know, it's an. Actually even more interesting than just a searcher. It's a searcher who at the same time, is desperate for worldly success.

[Joanna Coles]

So these and recognition.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, these two things, these two contradictory things exist within this guy. And what happens? I don't know. Maybe we'll see.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Well, it's definitely his campaign book. And I cannot wait. How is Pete Hegseth gonna best this? How is Marco Rubio gonna best this? Cause what he's doing here is setting himself up as a serious man.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they don't have to. They'll just do a campaign book that they won't even read.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But Howard, does Pete Hegseth explain his previous marriages and his intoxication?

[Michael Wolff]

You don't have to do this in a campaign book. First thing, you don't have to do it because you have a staff to do it. And that's it. So it'll be Pete Hegseth, and Pete Hagseth will be on the COVID of the book.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, because that's part of his.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, so it's interesting here that JD Is not on the COVID of this book. But anyway, Pete Hegseth will be on the COVID of the book, and it will just be a book that no one, least of all Pete Hagseth, reads.

[Joanna Coles]

So this is turning into a sort of cultural. It's almost like a review episode. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about, which again, someone I really don't understand is Laura Loomer. So Laura Loomer has had a 180 on Ukraine. She's been out there saying forever that the Ukraine war should be brought to an end, that Trump should finish it, and that essentially she now says that she swallowed Russian propaganda, that she's been talking nonsense. She went to Ukraine. She met Vladimir Zelensky. She's made a strange little documentary about it.

[Michael Wolff]

This is a Ukraine moment which is suddenly catching everybody, including Donald Trump, in the headlights. I mean, and it catches J.D. vance in the headlights, too. I mean, remember, all of these people were of the. Were Russian, if not. If not sympathizers. You know, they were Russian leaners, and they were Russian leaners because Russia was going to win.

[Joanna Coles]

Right?

[Michael Wolff]

So they were really just all on the side of the winner here. And Putin was, you know, this. And. And, you know, it was opportunistic for all of them, including Donald Trump, to be. To be a Russian supporter. Yeah, yeah. And clearly that was a bad call. I mean, JD in the book is kind of like a little sheepish about this. I mean, we have Ukraine at this historic moment in time is the pivot. I mean, it has thrown everything into. I mean, I don't think anybody knows how to quite deal with this.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and of course, Lindsey Graham, just coming back where we began with his lying in state in the rotunda, died after coming back from his 10th visit to Ukraine. And despite his sort of suck uppery, the one thing he was consistent on was we should be supporting Ukraine, we should push Russia back. Russia cannot be allowed to walk into Europe.

[Michael Wolff]

So Lindsey Graham is kind of continues that neocon thread and as much as he was sucking up to, to Trump, he was in the background. And now that becomes a justification by the. By the way, and perhaps it was he sucked up to Trump because he was preserving his neocon, his neocon beliefs against. Yeah, well, against, against the MAGA people who were, you know, I mean, Tucker was going to Russia. Tucker is, you know, we shouldn't spend a dime on Ukraine. All of that kind of thing in which everybody is. How do you now reconcile this, this with the fact that Ukraine certainly has. Ukraine has changed the nature of war. It's changed our understanding of who can. Of the power equation in war, which Donald Trump is experiencing firsthand in Iran. And it certainly looks like at this point that Ukraine is going to. The result is going to be an historic reversal, really. Russia is fucked.

[Joanna Coles]

So how important is Laura Loomer in Trump's circle? Because she's really, she's an influencer. But what does that mean? We know that she's spent a lot of time going back in social media feeds of people that Trump has hired and pointing out things they've said that were disloyal to him.

[Michael Wolff]

This is an easy answer. Laura Loomer is not important in the circle, but she can be important to Trump himself. She has Trump's phone number. She can get Trump on the phone. Trump likes to talk to her.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, she was traveling with him a lot at one point. That seems to have calmed down.

[Michael Wolff]

And she is actually, this is the important hinge here is she's a Natalie Harper person.

[Joanna Coles]

So did Natalie Harp bring her in?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, well, yes, and certainly during the campaign, Natalie Harp was the person who approved her getting on the plane.

[Joanna Coles]

So

[Michael Wolff]

she has contacts within the Trump circle. And then Trump likes her and she gets Trump on the phone and she goes does her thing and he's the last person he Talked to. So fine. She wants so and so fired because so and so fired. So and so is not loyal to him. He might well do that.

[Joanna Coles]

So is her 180 on Ukraine going to be significant to him, or is it already going on anyway?

[Michael Wolff]

It's already, obviously, obviously. I mean, Zelensky is now in town for Lindsey Graham's funeral, but he will get time with Trump and Trump is. Yeah. How could you miss. The fact that Ukraine is. The advantage at this point is profoundly

[Joanna Coles]

with Ukraine and Trump himself is now, as we've said in an Iranian standoff, which it's unclear how it's going to resolve. And the Iranians are now in control.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. In a broader sense, the foreign policy aspect of this administration, of the second Trump administration has been a complete disaster.

[Joanna Coles]

Apart from Venezuela.

[Michael Wolff]

Apart from. Yes. But even now, and by the way, even Cuba is not going well. The Cubans are hanging on, and he can't make that happen. The Iranian thing is a complete disaster. The alignment with Russia, obviously a bad call. Remember, he kicked Zelensky out of the Oval Office.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and another thing that's very hard to say, square with J.D. vance's apparent piety, the way they humiliated Zelenskyy when he was in the Oval Office.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he was a loser then. Now he's a winner there. You know, Netanyahu now in, you know, trying to get time with, with, with, with Donald Trump and some question about whether he's going to get that time, whether, whether Trump is going to, is going to really dis him.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Really humiliate him because, and I mean, that's a bad call, you know, you know, coddling, coddling up to Netanyahu and then getting stuck in Iran, everything is a bad call here. I mean, a profound, I mean, terrible call. So Greenland, let's not forget Greenland.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So within, within this context, he really needs a success and Ukraine is beginning to look like it could be his. You know, he's going to, he could

[Joanna Coles]

piggyback off Lindsey Graham's funeral to a more successful strategy with Ukraine.

[Michael Wolff]

Bingo. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, Michael, such fun to sit in the studio with you. We'll be back on Thursday.

[Michael Wolff]

We will.

[Joanna Coles]

We will be back on Thursday and

[Michael Wolff]

the Thursday after that and the Tuesday and the Saturday.

[Joanna Coles]

God willing. God willing. We don't want to die in podcast. We don't want to die mid podcast. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily beast. I think 4,000 subscribers got 4,000 new subscribers since last week. Thank you very much. We appreciate your support. We're independent media, which is why we can talk like we do. And why don't you thank our content group?

[Michael Wolff]

Ryan, who I'm looking at. John, who I'm looking at. Neil, who I'm not looking at. Heather. Rachel.

[Joanna Coles]

So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.